Digital BW, The Print

In November 2001 there was a show of Photogravures at the Minneapolis 
Institute of Art. Alfred Stieglitz, Paul Strand, Alvin Langdon 
Coburn,Edward S. Curtis, and Lee Friedlander were among the 
photographers represented in this show. Can anyone explain to me what 
in the process of Quad B&W printing using MIS Carbon inks would make 
the print less archival than a Photogravure. Is the weak link in the 
coatings, Ink, Solvent...What. Or is there no differance.

                         John H

> Can anyone explain to me what
> in the process of Quad B&W printing using MIS Carbon inks would make
> the print less archival than a Photogravure. Is the weak link in the
> coatings, Ink, Solvent...What. Or is there no differance.

John,

An exceptionally excellent question!

http://www.curtis-collection.com/process.html

it appears to me that photogravure process has to use some kind of
halftoning technique to get tonality, as it only uses a single ink.  Does
anyone know more about this?  I have a book with photogravures in it, that
I'll take my magnifier out and look at, out of intellectual curiosity...

Austin

I also think that this is an excellent question. I will hazard a couple of
guesses though. Gravure controls tone by varying the depth of the etching of
the plate I believe or it can be a half tone process. I suspect that the
main advantage over inkjet is that the ink is literally forced into the
paper under pressure. The inks are very thick, a paste actually so that
bleeding on porous papers is not an issue. By impregnating the paper the ink
would be less exposed. With inkjet bleeding on uncoated papers is a problem
because the ink is very thin. So the papers are coated leaving the carbon
particles of the ink sitting on the surface where they are more subject to
oxidation and in addition we do not know what role the paper coatings may
play in longevity.

I do recommend group Strange Ross's site at http://www.psy.ku.dk/ross/ for
information on making plates using digital negatives.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 9:12 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet


> > Can anyone explain to me what
> > in the process of Quad B&W printing using MIS Carbon inks would make
> > the print less archival than a Photogravure. Is the weak link in the
> > coatings, Ink, Solvent...What. Or is there no differance.
>
> John,
>
> An exceptionally excellent question!
>
> http://www.curtis-collection.com/process.html
>
> it appears to me that photogravure process has to use some kind of
> halftoning technique to get tonality, as it only uses a single ink.  Does
> anyone know more about this?  I have a book with photogravures in it, that
> I'll take my magnifier out and look at, out of intellectual curiosity...
>
> Austin
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi Martin,

> I also think that this is an excellent question. I will hazard a couple of
> guesses though. Gravure controls tone by varying the depth of the
> etching of
> the plate I believe or it can be a half tone process.

BTW, when I say "halftone" here, I mean simply that it uses a single ink,
and varies the tonality by laying more or less ink down with gaps between
the ink the vary the graytone.

I'd like to understand just how the photogravure varies the tones.  I'm not
finding any really good information on that, but a close-up of the plate
would probably help quite a bit...

Here's one more explanation, a bit more detailed, but over my head:

http://haleysteele.com/hs_root/learning/technical/index.html

I'll have to read it a couple of times very slowly to get any understanding
of it.  Very bizarre picture as an example of PG by the way.

Regards,

Austin

Hi Martin,

> Gravure controls tone by varying the depth of the
> etching of
> the plate I believe or it can be a half tone process.

From the last link I posted:

"A Photogravure print is composed of microscopic, irregular-shaped particles
of raised ink of varying widths, surrounding the white (or light) spots,
which result from the protection given by the rosin to the metal when the
plate is etched. As in an aquatint, the darker the portion, the smaller and
farther apart are the white spots."

I don't know how that is actually accomplished, but the print ends up being
basically similar to a halftone process in that it uses a single ink, and
the size of the ink "spots" and the amount if white space, to simulate
tonality.

Regards,

Austin

----- Original Message -----

From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 10:32 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet


> Hi Martin,
>
> > I also think that this is an excellent question. I will hazard a couple
of
> > guesses though. Gravure controls tone by varying the depth of the
> > etching of
> > the plate I believe or it can be a half tone process.
>
> BTW, when I say "halftone" here, I mean simply that it uses a single ink,
> and varies the tonality by laying more or less ink down with gaps between
> the ink the vary the graytone.

Well I think that it does it without any gaps or can be done with a
traditional line screen. I know someone in college (long ago) who was
directly scratching abstract designs into copper plates and etching them
with acid. The ink was applied to the plate with a putty knife and the
amount was proportional to the depth of the etching into the plate.

Check out:

http://www.lenswork.com/gravureprimer1.htm
>
> I'd like to understand just how the photogravure varies the tones.  I'm
not
> finding any really good information on that, but a close-up of the plate
> would probably help quite a bit...
>
> Here's one more explanation, a bit more detailed, but over my head:
>
> http://haleysteele.com/hs_root/learning/technical/index.html
>
> I'll have to read it a couple of times very slowly to get any
understanding
> of it.  Very bizarre picture as an example of PG by the way.

Thanks for the link. Very interesting although his explainations and
constant referrences to other printing methods I don't understand make it a
bit difficult. I do get from it that the ink density in the print is
controled by the depth of the acid etching.

Martin

Hi Martin,

> Well I think that it does it without any gaps or can be done with a
> traditional line screen. I know someone in college (long ago) who was
> directly scratching abstract designs into copper plates and etching them
> with acid. The ink was applied to the plate with a putty knife and the
> amount was proportional to the depth of the etching into the plate.

> http://www.lenswork.com/gravureprimer1.htm

Hum.  It appears that is in direct conflict with what I quoted...but...I
think your link makes more sense, and is probably correct.  So, photogravure
appears to not be a halftone-like process.  Interesting.

Regards,

Austin

great site   wish i could have had it while teaching art appreciation
(college) but i have bookmarked it for later    jwp/jno


austin wrote:

Here's one more explanation, a bit more detailed, but over my head:

http://haleysteele.com/hs_root/learning/technical/index.html

I'll have to read it a couple of times very slowly to get any understanding
of it.

That is a great site. I was married to an artist (orca was also an art major
in college) and that site brought up a lot of repressed memories. Oh yeah,
orca is not her real name! By the way Austin, I do like Bill Brandt and
Walker Evans but I never see their names mentioned. Always A.A. I don't have
the attention span for that type of work. I am a jazz player and
improviser---not Beethoven..........Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "jean wall penland" <penland.walpen@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet


> great site   wish i could have had it while teaching art appreciation
> (college) but i have bookmarked it for later    jwp/jno
>
>
> austin wrote:
>
> Here's one more explanation, a bit more detailed, but over my head:
>
> http://haleysteele.com/hs_root/learning/technical/index.html
>
> I'll have to read it a couple of times very slowly to get any
understanding
> of it.
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 6:08 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet


>
> In November 2001 there was a show of Photogravures at the Minneapolis
> Institute of Art. Alfred Stieglitz, Paul Strand, Alvin Langdon
> Coburn,Edward S. Curtis, and Lee Friedlander were among the
> photographers represented in this show. Can anyone explain to me what
> in the process of Quad B&W printing using MIS Carbon inks would make
> the print less archival than a Photogravure. Is the weak link in the
> coatings, Ink, Solvent...What. Or is there no differance.

Photogravure uses inks with an oil medium and bigger pigments particles. The
oil (linseed, alkyde) will harden on oxidation and that results in a strong
resin. That is in art printing on good quality papers,
no coating at all on the paper in any intanglio process.
In commercial photogravure on rotating presses (rotogravure) the ink is an
alcohol based varnish for faster printing with cheaper colorants. The paper
is bad as well. Nation wide magazines were printed that way till the 1970's
when offset replaced rotogravure.
Photogravure has long been considered the best printing process for
photography reproduction.

The weak link is in the inkjet ink medium mainly, very little medium, lots
of water, alcohol, glycol based solvent. The last disappears and the pigment
doesn't have a strong bond with the paper, the pigment particles are not
embedded in the varnish either. Epson pigment inks have an acryl
encapsulation of the pigment particles (Ultrachrome matte black is the
exception) that helps to protect the pigment, it gives a better bond and
makes gloss  printing possible.

All the processes to get a better protection of the inkjet pigment layer
like laminating or varnish coatings are done to get that same bond and
encapsulation of the conventional printing processes. A nice example for
outdoor prints is the First foil. Pigment ink is printed on that foil and
after printing the foil is heated in a tunneloven. The coating is made of a
resin with an reasonable low melting point (150 C.) the pigment sinks in the
caoting and the coating hardens when it gets cool again. Ilford had
something similar in the pipeline but it hasn't been released yet.

Ernst

Austin writes:

> it appears to me that photogravure process has
> to use some kind of halftoning technique to get
> tonality, as it only uses a single ink.

It looks like another one of those time-consuming, artsy techniques that try
to substitute expensive, awkward, and highly variable hand work for image
content.  Many people are attracted to anything that has to be prepared
laboriously by hand, even if the result is no better than something that is
printed by machine in 30 seconds, and even if the image itself scarcely
merits the machine printing, much less the hand printing.

I was talking to a sculptor about this same problem yesterday.  Her
sculptures are great: lots of talent and superb execution.  But she can't
sell them because she works in polycarbonate plastic.  She says that nobody
wants to buy anything that isn't in wood, bronze, or stone, no matter how
nice it looks or how much talent it demonstrates.  Photography is much the
same way.

Photogravure is an "Intaglio" process...if you're doing research that 
will help.  Etching, engravings, mezzotint, etc. are subgroups of 
intaglio, as is photogravure I believe.

Quick google search kicked this link up...which I felt acurrate 
enough to pass on...
http://www.kamprint.com/printmak.htm

Thought this one might amuse some as well...
http://www.mtsu.edu/~art/printmaking/imagon.html

One of the criticisms of photographers is that they do not study the 
whole of the history of art...afraid this thread confirms that 
fallacy (maybe it's just my momentary mood).  You can learn as much 
about lighting a scene by studying Rembrandt as Karsh.

Sincerely,
Cleavis

I guess I'l simplify the question. What would make a simple etching, 
say drypoint, More archival than an InkJet print using the "Archival 
Carbon Pigment" inks and Archival paper. Is it the ink we use, the 
solvent , the paper we use or the coating.What is the weak link here 
or do simple etchings or Lithos suffer from the same archival 
problems. I don't see people screaming about the archival qualities 
of a Picasso print be it an etching or litho.

                           John H

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:17 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet


>
>
> I guess I'l simplify the question. What would make a simple etching,
> say drypoint, More archival than an InkJet print using the "Archival
> Carbon Pigment" inks and Archival paper. Is it the ink we use, the
> solvent , the paper we use or the coating.What is the weak link here
> or do simple etchings or Lithos suffer from the same archival
> problems. I don't see people screaming about the archival qualities
> of a Picasso print be it an etching or litho.
>
>                            John H

John,

Ernst summed it up pretty well in his earlier post which I have copied
below. Simply put the carbon particles in the inks used for etchings are
heavily encapsulated and protected from oxidation. The ink is the big
difference.

Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 6:08 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet


(snip)

Photogravure uses inks with an oil medium and bigger pigments particles. The
oil (linseed, alkyde) will harden on oxidation and that results in a strong
resin. That is in art printing on good quality papers,
no coating at all on the paper in any intanglio process.
In commercial photogravure on rotating presses (rotogravure) the ink is an
alcohol based varnish for faster printing with cheaper colorants. The paper
is bad as well. Nation wide magazines were printed that way till the 1970's
when offset replaced rotogravure.
Photogravure has long been considered the best printing process for
photography reproduction.

The weak link is in the inkjet ink medium mainly, very little medium, lots
of water, alcohol, glycol based solvent. The last disappears and the pigment
doesn't have a strong bond with the paper, the pigment particles are not
embedded in the varnish either. Epson pigment inks have an acryl
encapsulation of the pigment particles (Ultrachrome matte black is the
exception) that helps to protect the pigment, it gives a better bond and
makes gloss  printing possible.

All the processes to get a better protection of the inkjet pigment layer
like laminating or varnish coatings are done to get that same bond and
encapsulation of the conventional printing processes. A nice example for
outdoor prints is the First foil. Pigment ink is printed on that foil and
after printing the foil is heated in a tunneloven. The coating is made of a
resin with an reasonable low melting point (150 C.) the pigment sinks in the
caoting and the coating hardens when it gets cool again. Ilford had
something similar in the pipeline but it hasn't been released yet.

Ernst

I would take this information to imply that coating is a good idea for 
any inkjet ink on any paper that one wants to last. Yes? The only 
question remaining is the aesthetic one regarding the look and feel of 
over coated fine art papers.
Cheers,
Jim
San Diego

On Saturday, September 21, 2002, at 12:03 AM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:17 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet
>
>
> >
> >
> > I guess I'l simplify the question. What would make a simple etching,
> > say drypoint, More archival than an InkJet print using the "Archival
> > Carbon Pigment" inks and Archival paper. Is it the ink we use, the
> > solvent , the paper we use or the coating.What is the weak link here
> > or do simple etchings or Lithos suffer from the same archival
> > problems. I don't see people screaming about the archival qualities
> > of a Picasso print be it an etching or litho.
> >
> >                            John H
>
> John,
>
> Ernst summed it up pretty well in his earlier post which I have copied
> below. Simply put the carbon particles in the inks used for etchings 
> are
> heavily encapsulated and protected from oxidation. The ink is the big
> difference.
>
> Martin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 6:08 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet
>
>
> (snip)
>
> Photogravure uses inks with an oil medium and bigger pigments 
> particles. The
> oil (linseed, alkyde) will harden on oxidation and that results in a 
> strong
> resin. That is in art printing on good quality papers,
> no coating at all on the paper in any intanglio process.
> In commercial photogravure on rotating presses (rotogravure) the ink 
> is an
> alcohol based varnish for faster printing with cheaper colorants. The 
> paper
> is bad as well. Nation wide magazines were printed that way till the 
> 1970's
> when offset replaced rotogravure.
> Photogravure has long been considered the best printing process for
> photography reproduction.
>
> The weak link is in the inkjet ink medium mainly, very little medium, 
> lots
> of water, alcohol, glycol based solvent. The last disappears and the 
> pigment
> doesn't have a strong bond with the paper, the pigment particles are 
> not
> embedded in the varnish either. Epson pigment inks have an acryl
> encapsulation of the pigment particles (Ultrachrome matte black is the
> exception) that helps to protect the pigment, it gives a better bond 
> and
> makes gloss  printing possible.
>
> All the processes to get a better protection of the inkjet pigment 
> layer
> like laminating or varnish coatings are done to get that same bond and
> encapsulation of the conventional printing processes. A nice example 
> for
> outdoor prints is the First foil. Pigment ink is printed on that foil 
> and
> after printing the foil is heated in a tunneloven. The coating is made 
> of a
> resin with an reasonable low melting point (150 C.) the pigment sinks 
> in the
> caoting and the coating hardens when it gets cool again. Ilford had
> something similar in the pipeline but it hasn't been released yet.
>
> Ernst
>
>
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim,

Yes coating or varnishing the prints cuts fading and warming by at least
half. A lot of work was done on this by Robert Morrison. I did a bit myself
and you can find the info in the Files section. Don't use the polyurethane.
A year later it is very yellow. The Golden materials are the best.

I sent around a traveling collection of coated prints and no one was
inspired by the look to take up varnishing. The coated surface is similar to
a varnish oil painting. The DMax is great though. Application is the biggest
problem.

Varnishing photographs was fairly common before the birth of the glossy
silver gelatin print. Strand varnished most of his prints.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Downs" <silvergull@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet


I would take this information to imply that coating is a good idea for
any inkjet ink on any paper that one wants to last. Yes? The only
question remaining is the aesthetic one regarding the look and feel of
over coated fine art papers.
Cheers,
Jim
San Diego

On Saturday, September 21, 2002, at 12:03 AM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:17 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet
>
>
> >
> >
> > I guess I'l simplify the question. What would make a simple etching,
> > say drypoint, More archival than an InkJet print using the "Archival
> > Carbon Pigment" inks and Archival paper. Is it the ink we use, the
> > solvent , the paper we use or the coating.What is the weak link here
> > or do simple etchings or Lithos suffer from the same archival
> > problems. I don't see people screaming about the archival qualities
> > of a Picasso print be it an etching or litho.
> >
> > John H
>
> John,
>
> Ernst summed it up pretty well in his earlier post which I have copied
> below. Simply put the carbon particles in the inks used for etchings
> are
> heavily encapsulated and protected from oxidation. The ink is the big
> difference.
>
> Martin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 6:08 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet
>
>
> (snip)
>
> Photogravure uses inks with an oil medium and bigger pigments
> particles. The
> oil (linseed, alkyde) will harden on oxidation and that results in a
> strong
> resin. That is in art printing on good quality papers,
> no coating at all on the paper in any intanglio process.
> In commercial photogravure on rotating presses (rotogravure) the ink
> is an
> alcohol based varnish for faster printing with cheaper colorants. The
> paper
> is bad as well. Nation wide magazines were printed that way till the
> 1970's
> when offset replaced rotogravure.
> Photogravure has long been considered the best printing process for
> photography reproduction.
>
> The weak link is in the inkjet ink medium mainly, very little medium,
> lots
> of water, alcohol, glycol based solvent. The last disappears and the
> pigment
> doesn't have a strong bond with the paper, the pigment particles are
> not
> embedded in the varnish either. Epson pigment inks have an acryl
> encapsulation of the pigment particles (Ultrachrome matte black is the
> exception) that helps to protect the pigment, it gives a better bond
> and
> makes gloss printing possible.
>
> All the processes to get a better protection of the inkjet pigment
> layer
> like laminating or varnish coatings are done to get that same bond and
> encapsulation of the conventional printing processes. A nice example
> for
> outdoor prints is the First foil. Pigment ink is printed on that foil
> and
> after printing the foil is heated in a tunneloven. The coating is made
> of a
> resin with an reasonable low melting point (150 C.) the pigment sinks
> in the
> caoting and the coating hardens when it gets cool again. Ilford had
> something similar in the pipeline but it hasn't been released yet.
>
> Ernst
>
>
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

----- Original Message -----

From: "Cleavis" <lyonscox@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet


> Photogravure is an "Intaglio" process...if you're doing research that
> will help.  Etching, engravings, mezzotint, etc. are subgroups of
> intaglio, as is photogravure I believe.
>
> Quick google search kicked this link up...which I felt acurrate
> enough to pass on...
> http://www.kamprint.com/printmak.htm
>
> Thought this one might amuse some as well...
> http://www.mtsu.edu/~art/printmaking/imagon.html

Cleavis,

Thanks for the links. I have not had the oportunity to see many examples but
it is a wonderful medium. Too bad more people do not work in it. It is very
well suited for digital output using Photoshop to create the positive film
for exposing the resist.

With this output we know it is archival and has stood the test of time.
>
> One of the criticisms of photographers is that they do not study the
> whole of the history of art...afraid this thread confirms that
> fallacy (maybe it's just my momentary mood).  You can learn as much
> about lighting a scene by studying Rembrandt as Karsh.

What! Take time out from discussing ink and printers and digital vs. film
and scanning resoltions! Who has time for art!! <G>

Martin

----- Original Message -----

From: "James Downs" <silvergull@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet



>I would take this information to imply that coating is a good idea for
any inkjet ink on any paper that one wants to last. Yes? The only
question remaining is the aesthetic one regarding the look and feel of
over coated fine art papers.
Cheers,
Jim
>San Diego

The aesthetic part plays a role so you want a protection that is almost
invisible, doesn't discolour in time or delaminate. Epson's Ultrachrome is
very close to that for indoor work. The pigment is protected. The paper
coating itself however is not protected. From experience I know that
Hahnemuhle coating collects air pollution as if it has to clean the air. Two
weeks candle burning at Xmas will show a brown shift on unprotected
Hahnemuhle. It will not be better with other coatings. You either have to
frame behind glass or put a varnish or lamination on it. If Ilford gets that
nice solution of a thermo curing coating right it would be the easiest way
to make a protection. It also would be a nice way to make mat and gloss with
the same pigment  ink.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Jim,
> I sent around a traveling collection of coated prints and no one 
was
> inspired by the look to take up varnishing.


Untrue, young man.

I might not go as far as saying that your package alone inspired 
me to coat, but your posts, and Robert's, and others tweaked my 
curiosity to experiment. As of now, I'm glazing every "serious" 
print that I make for display.

Here's my procedure:

1. Make print on Museo or PhotoRag.
2. Leave highlights just a tad open and light.
3. First coat is with LeFranc Ageing Varnish. In the bottle, it's the 
color of 10W40, and about that thick. It tints the highlights 
somewhat yellow, and punches up the black in the Museo.
4. Let that dry one day.
5. Final coat is with Oleopasto, applied with either sheetrock 
knife or foam brush, and then finish-brushed with regular brush. 
It's very thick, like petroleum jelly, and dries a semigloss, and 
leaves body and texture of the brush strokes.
6. Let that dry one day.

http://marktucker.com/temp/5481.JPG

I have been wrapping the prints around a wood frame, almost 
like a canvas painting, but honestly, that's getting old, even now. 
Adds lots of time that won't be rewarded come sale time.

I think my new thing will be to coat just the image area, so that it 
shows a semigloss look, against the matte look of the 
surrounding paper. Much less post-production. I'm just not sure 
how I'll frame it, because I don't want glass in front of it.

One big thing that this whole mess does -- it takes the 
"computer-ness" out of the print to a large degree. The prints feel 
more hand-done and organic.

I'm sure that what I'm doing is not OSHA/Archival-approved, but 
hey, I like the look and I hate every water-based product that I've 
tried. They all leave that "plastic-y" look; oil is the only way for me.

Just my opinion.

MT, http://www.marktucker.com/

Martin Wesley wrote:

>What! Take time out from discussing ink and printers and digital vs. film
>and scanning resoltions! Who has time for art!! <G>
>
>
>  
>
Not to mention metaphysics, CPUs, and file sub-systems...!!

It's a wonder I  get any real work done..
Keith
 
 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark, I was going to  write, after seeing this image, "Is Mark Tucker God?",
but then on further reflection on the image, decided against it.  ;^))

Seriously, Wow!

Bill Morse
PhotoProspect
Cambridge, MA 02139

PS- Could we all now spend the next week and a half discussing again
"abstraction versus representation?


on 9/21/02 8:26 AM, Mark Tucker wrote:

> 
> http://marktucker.com/temp/5481.JPG

Mark,

I am glad to hear you did pursue this! I do remember you mentioning you were
thinking about trying it. That is a very nice print and look! I wish I could
see it person. This may be the best approach, to emphasize the coating as
part of the work rather than unsuccessfully trying to make it invisible as I
was doing. I guess the overall lack of enthusiasm for the people who saw the
prints lead me to think no one was interested.

Thanks,
Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Tucker" <mtucker508@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Coating, was Photogravure


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Jim,
> > I sent around a traveling collection of coated prints and no one
> was
> > inspired by the look to take up varnishing.
>
>
> Untrue, young man.
>
> I might not go as far as saying that your package alone inspired
> me to coat, but your posts, and Robert's, and others tweaked my
> curiosity to experiment. As of now, I'm glazing every "serious"
> print that I make for display.
>
> Here's my procedure:
>
> 1. Make print on Museo or PhotoRag.
> 2. Leave highlights just a tad open and light.
> 3. First coat is with LeFranc Ageing Varnish. In the bottle, it's the
> color of 10W40, and about that thick. It tints the highlights
> somewhat yellow, and punches up the black in the Museo.
> 4. Let that dry one day.
> 5. Final coat is with Oleopasto, applied with either sheetrock
> knife or foam brush, and then finish-brushed with regular brush.
> It's very thick, like petroleum jelly, and dries a semigloss, and
> leaves body and texture of the brush strokes.
> 6. Let that dry one day.
>
> http://marktucker.com/temp/5481.JPG
>
> I have been wrapping the prints around a wood frame, almost
> like a canvas painting, but honestly, that's getting old, even now.
> Adds lots of time that won't be rewarded come sale time.
>
> I think my new thing will be to coat just the image area, so that it
> shows a semigloss look, against the matte look of the
> surrounding paper. Much less post-production. I'm just not sure
> how I'll frame it, because I don't want glass in front of it.
>
> One big thing that this whole mess does -- it takes the
> "computer-ness" out of the print to a large degree. The prints feel
> more hand-done and organic.
>
> I'm sure that what I'm doing is not OSHA/Archival-approved, but
> hey, I like the look and I hate every water-based product that I've
> tried. They all leave that "plastic-y" look; oil is the only way for me.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> MT, http://www.marktucker.com/
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

At 1:06 AM -0700 9/21/02, Martin Wesley wrote:
>Jim,
>
>Yes coating or varnishing the prints cuts fading and warming by at least
>half. A lot of work was done on this by Robert Morrison. I did a bit myself
>and you can find the info in the Files section. Don't use the polyurethane.
>A year later it is very yellow. The Golden materials are the best.
>
>I sent around a traveling collection of coated prints and no one was
>inspired by the look to take up varnishing. The coated surface is similar to
>a varnish oil painting. The DMax is great though. Application is the biggest
>problem.
>
>Varnishing photographs was fairly common before the birth of the glossy
>silver gelatin print. Strand varnished most of his prints.
>
>Martin Wesley
>
>http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>


Martin,

I have been coating prints with acrylic emulsion..water base.  I 
spray it on with a high quality automotive spray gun.  Seems to work 
fine.  I don't like glass or plastic covering my images. I mount them 
on canvas, metal or whatever.

What is the Golden material?  Is that an acrylic material made by the 
same people who do the Golden line of acrylic artists paints?

Bill Agee
-- 

bill agee studio
capistrano beach, ca / laguna beach, ca

http://www.redsilver.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Bill Agee" <billagee@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photogravure and InkJet


(snip earlier)
> >
>
>
> Martin,
>
> I have been coating prints with acrylic emulsion..water base.  I
> spray it on with a high quality automotive spray gun.  Seems to work
> fine.  I don't like glass or plastic covering my images. I mount them
> on canvas, metal or whatever.
>
> What is the Golden material?  Is that an acrylic material made by the
> same people who do the Golden line of acrylic artists paints?

Bill,

Yes it is. Check out:

http://www.goldenpaints.com/varns.htm

A number of people suggested using quality automotive spray guns when this
was a topic a year ag but no one actually tried it. What did it cost you for
equipment and what is the learning curve like? Equipment specs?

Thanks,
Martin Wesley

Martin,

just because you are not seeing a lot of coated prints, doesn't mean your 
package of samples did not inspire. Au contraire - as they say. For me it's 
purely a matter of time and how much of it I can invest in coatings. I took 
detailed notes from the samples I saw and intend to play "at some point". 

But meanwhile, I've been looking at Robert Morrison's work-in-progress and 
I'm convinced that a simple run to the art store won't do the job. His coating 
samples show a lot of promise both because they are smooth and because 
they are not yellowing or too plasticky looking. When he is ready, I hope he 
will make a formal announcement of what is likely to be a whole new product 
line.

Antonis

> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > Jim,
> > > I sent around a traveling collection of coated prints and no one
> > was
> > > inspired by the look to take up varnishing.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Antonis Ricos" <antonisphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Coating, was Photogravure


> Martin,
>
> just because you are not seeing a lot of coated prints, doesn't mean your
> package of samples did not inspire. Au contraire - as they say. For me
it's
> purely a matter of time and how much of it I can invest in coatings. I
took
> detailed notes from the samples I saw and intend to play "at some point".

Antonis,

Good to hear. I remember you were talking along the lines of what Mark
Tucker has done using stiff medium and perhaps varying the thickness and
texture to emphasize the composition of the print.
>
> But meanwhile, I've been looking at Robert Morrison's work-in-progress and
> I'm convinced that a simple run to the art store won't do the job. His
coating
> samples show a lot of promise both because they are smooth and because
> they are not yellowing or too plasticky looking. When he is ready, I hope
he
> will make a formal announcement of what is likely to be a whole new
product
> line.

I have talked to Robert a bit about his coating off-list and it sounds very
good. The problem is determining the best marketing approach for something
like that. My efforts got too plastic looking because there were too many
coats I think. I was trying to cover up the brush marks, unsuccessfully. I
keep toying with the idea of dry mounting some prints first and then coating
them and the idea of silkscreen application still has merit, at least
theoretically.

Martin
>


>
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > > Jim,
> > > > I sent around a traveling collection of coated prints and no one
> > > was
> > > > inspired by the look to take up varnishing.
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

For those interested in seeing what post printing coating can do for inkjet
BW or color prints please contact me off-list for samples.

Robert

On 9/21/02 4:38 PM, "Antonis Ricos" <antonisphoto@...> wrote:

> Martin,
> 
> just because you are not seeing a lot of coated prints, doesn't mean your
> package of samples did not inspire. Au contraire - as they say. For me it's
> purely a matter of time and how much of it I can invest in coatings. I took
> detailed notes from the samples I saw and intend to play "at some point".
> 
> But meanwhile, I've been looking at Robert Morrison's work-in-progress and
> I'm convinced that a simple run to the art store won't do the job. His coating
> samples show a lot of promise both because they are smooth and because
> they are not yellowing or too plasticky looking. When he is ready, I hope he
> will make a formal announcement of what is likely to be a whole new product
> line.
> 
> Antonis
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
>>> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
>>>> Jim,
>>>> I sent around a traveling collection of coated prints and no one
>>> was
>>>> inspired by the look to take up varnishing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

----- Original Message -----

From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Coating, was Photogravure


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Antonis Ricos" <antonisphoto@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Coating, was Photogravure
>
>
> > Martin,
> >
> > just because you are not seeing a lot of coated prints, doesn't mean
your
> > package of samples did not inspire. Au contraire - as they say. For me
> it's
> > purely a matter of time and how much of it I can invest in coatings. I
> took
> > detailed notes from the samples I saw and intend to play "at some
point".
>
> Antonis,
>
> Good to hear. I remember you were talking along the lines of what Mark
> Tucker has done using stiff medium and perhaps varying the thickness and
> texture to emphasize the composition of the print.
> >
> > But meanwhile, I've been looking at Robert Morrison's work-in-progress
and
> > I'm convinced that a simple run to the art store won't do the job. His
> coating
> > samples show a lot of promise both because they are smooth and because
> > they are not yellowing or too plasticky looking. When he is ready, I
hope
> he
> > will make a formal announcement of what is likely to be a whole new
> product
> > line.
>
> I have talked to Robert a bit about his coating off-list and it sounds
very
> good. The problem is determining the best marketing approach for something
> like that. My efforts got too plastic looking because there were too many
> coats I think. I was trying to cover up the brush marks, unsuccessfully. I
> keep toying with the idea of dry mounting some prints first and then
coating
> them and the idea of silkscreen application still has merit, at least
> theoretically.
>
> Martin

One would think so and as I own a silkscreen printshop it has been the first
thing I tried. The problem is that I do not like the soaking up of the
varnish in the paper and by that the usual colouring to yellow/green. I find
it hard to get a silkscreen ink that doesn't show that behaviour. Printed
with 150 threads per cm polyester and UV curing inks, ink base is an acryl.
I'm talking with some ink distributors but they do not show much interest.
Stupid as they have already lost a substantial part of their market to
inkjet. I hate to return to solvent inks.

Not everyone has a silkscreen shop. What would be nuch nicer is another
(older) inkjet printer that sprays the prints with a coating. Register to
spray only the image printed must be possible. 4 heads all filled with the
same liguid and a raw driver that will let them all work at the same time.

Ernst

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 4:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Coating, was Photogravure


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 2:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Coating, was Photogravure
>
>
(snip earlier)


> > I keep toying with the idea of dry mounting some prints first and then
> > coating
> > them and the idea of silkscreen application still has merit, at least
> > theoretically.
> >
> > Martin
>
> One would think so and as I own a silkscreen printshop it has been the
first
> thing I tried. The problem is that I do not like the soaking up of the
> varnish in the paper and by that the usual colouring to yellow/green. I
find
> it hard to get a silkscreen ink that doesn't show that behaviour. Printed
> with 150 threads per cm polyester and UV curing inks, ink base is an
acryl.
> I'm talking with some ink distributors but they do not show much interest.
> Stupid as they have already lost a substantial part of their market to
> inkjet. I hate to return to solvent inks.

Ernst,

Thanks for the information. Do you think that it would be possible to use a
silk screen with acrylic painting varnishes? The Golden acrylic varnish has
remained nicely clean and colorless for 14 months now.
>
> Not everyone has a silkscreen shop. What would be nuch nicer is another
> (older) inkjet printer that sprays the prints with a coating. Register to
> spray only the image printed must be possible. 4 heads all filled with the
> same liguid and a raw driver that will let them all work at the same time.

MIS has samples of such a coating available.

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/accessory.html

      MIS-GLOSS-2


      MIS Gloss Coat Sample - Gloss Coat is a clear odorless coating which
can be applied to a glossy archival pigmented print to eliminate dull spots
and to seal the surface to make the print more durable. Requires a second
printer to apply. Comes in a 2 oz sample bottle, virgin empty cartridge not
included.

I think the question would be if enough coating could be applied this way to
provide maximum protection. I know you didn't like the way the paper was
saturated with varnish when you silk-screened but I think this might give
the maximum encapsulation of the pigment particles.

Martin Wesley

When I first asked about the permanence of InkJet VS Photogravure I 
mentioned a show I had seen at the Minneapolis Institute of Art. The 
pamphlet accompanying the show has a bit on Paul Strand and the 
Photogravure editions of The Mexico Portfolio. One was done in 1940 
and the other in 1967.


    " A heavy varnish, which has since darkened, was applied to the 
Photogravures in the first edition. By contrast, prints from the 
second edition appear much lighter in both tone and feeling"

	Just some food for thought

                        John H


-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@c...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 4:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Coating, was Photogravure
> 
> 
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 2:50 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Coating, was Photogravure
> >
> >
> (snip earlier)
> 
> 
> > > I keep toying with the idea of dry mounting some prints first 
and then
> > > coating
> > > them and the idea of silkscreen application still has merit, at 
least
> > > theoretically.
> > >
> > > Martin
> >
> > One would think so and as I own a silkscreen printshop it has 
been the
> first
> > thing I tried. The problem is that I do not like the soaking up 
of the
> > varnish in the paper and by that the usual colouring to 
yellow/green. I
> find
> > it hard to get a silkscreen ink that doesn't show that behaviour. 
Printed
> > with 150 threads per cm polyester and UV curing inks, ink base is 
an
> acryl.
> > I'm talking with some ink distributors but they do not show much 
interest.
> > Stupid as they have already lost a substantial part of their 
market to
> > inkjet. I hate to return to solvent inks.
> 
> Ernst,
> 
> Thanks for the information. Do you think that it would be possible 
to use a
> silk screen with acrylic painting varnishes? The Golden acrylic 
varnish has
> remained nicely clean and colorless for 14 months now.
> >
> > Not everyone has a silkscreen shop. What would be nuch nicer is 
another
> > (older) inkjet printer that sprays the prints with a coating. 
Register to
> > spray only the image printed must be possible. 4 heads all filled 
with the
> > same liguid and a raw driver that will let them all work at the 
same time.
> 
> MIS has samples of such a coating available.
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/accessory.html
> 
>       MIS-GLOSS-2
> 
> 
>       MIS Gloss Coat Sample - Gloss Coat is a clear odorless 
coating which
> can be applied to a glossy archival pigmented print to eliminate 
dull spots
> and to seal the surface to make the print more durable. Requires a 
second
> printer to apply. Comes in a 2 oz sample bottle, virgin empty 
cartridge not
> included.
> 
> I think the question would be if enough coating could be applied 
this way to
> provide maximum protection. I know you didn't like the way the 
paper was
> saturated with varnish when you silk-screened but I think this 
might give

> the maximum encapsulation of the pigment particles.
> 
> Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Coating, was Photogravure


> When I first asked about the permanence of InkJet VS Photogravure I
> mentioned a show I had seen at the Minneapolis Institute of Art. The
> pamphlet accompanying the show has a bit on Paul Strand and the
> Photogravure editions of The Mexico Portfolio. One was done in 1940
> and the other in 1967.
>
>
>     " A heavy varnish, which has since darkened, was applied to the
> Photogravures in the first edition. By contrast, prints from the
> second edition appear much lighter in both tone and feeling"
>
> Just some food for thought
>
>                         John H
John,

I recall reading somewhere that Strand used standard oil painting varnishes
such as Copal or Damar which have oils and resins known to darken with age.
The new modern varnishes are much, much better. All that said, we really
don't know what will happen over the course of centuries and I am beginning
to wonder if we really should get overly wrapped up in that issue.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 4:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Coating, was Photogravure


> When I first asked about the permanence of InkJet VS Photogravure I
> mentioned a show I had seen at the Minneapolis Institute of Art. The
> pamphlet accompanying the show has a bit on Paul Strand and the
> Photogravure editions of The Mexico Portfolio. One was done in 1940
> and the other in 1967.
>
>
>     " A heavy varnish, which has since darkened, was applied to the
> Photogravures in the first edition. By contrast, prints from the
> second edition appear much lighter in both tone and feeling"
>
> Just some food for thought
>
>                         John H

If the inks are already encapsulated like the Epson Ultrachromes are then
that can be considered enough for the image itself. The difference with the
gravure print and other printing technics is in the inkjet coating on the
paper. Due to its character it will stain faster than papers without a
coating. Most art papers usually only varied in the amount of sizing and the
surface being unpressed, cold pressed or hot pressed. Coating wasn't applied
or only an extra surface sizing for litho papers. Paper base can be
excellent for all printing processes including inkjet.  Cotton or alpha
cellulose or mixes of both.

There's a general attitude in the printing industry that varnishes may be
worse than the inks themselves.
In the past the risk of varnishes getting yellow or brittle on hardening and
UV exposure was something to count with. I'm using some of the best outdoor
vinyl inks in silkscreen printing: Sericol's Polyplast E series.
In the specs pages they advise to use them without an overprint varnish.
Only where the surface may be subject to abrasion etc they advise to use a
Polyplast varnish.

Wilhelm isn't fond of varnishes either. But in the light of his changed
ideas about fading including paper discolouring it could well be that he may
give another advice these days.

Looking back to what has been used in the past is of course a good idea. But
there have been huge changes in technics since then. We have learned from
restoration technics what wasn't so good then and what could be better now
(acryls for example). Epson inkjet technology has to compromise on some
aspects, among them paper coatings for detailed work. Of course the Iris
printers could print on art papers
without a coating. And inkjets using solvent ink or oil based inks are used
in another part of the market. However they will not print as nice on paper
as the Epsons we use. The Epson C series and their inks are better on
uncoated paper AFAIK, so were HP dye printers but then it means a compromise
on image quality and/or fading.

Ernst

Martin, you wrote:

> Thanks for the information. Do you think that it would be possible to use
a
> silk screen with acrylic painting varnishes? The Golden acrylic varnish
has
> remained nicely clean and colorless for 14 months now.
> >
> > Not everyone has a silkscreen shop. What would be nuch nicer is another
> > (older) inkjet printer that sprays the prints with a coating. Register
to
> > spray only the image printed must be possible. 4 heads all filled with
the
> > same liguid and a raw driver that will let them all work at the same
time.
>
> MIS has samples of such a coating available.
>
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/accessory.html
>
>       MIS-GLOSS-2
>
>
>       MIS Gloss Coat Sample - Gloss Coat is a clear odorless coating which
> can be applied to a glossy archival pigmented print to eliminate dull
spots
> and to seal the surface to make the print more durable. Requires a second
> printer to apply. Comes in a 2 oz sample bottle, virgin empty cartridge
not
> included.
>
> I think the question would be if enough coating could be applied this way
to
> provide maximum protection. I know you didn't like the way the paper was
> saturated with varnish when you silk-screened but I think this might give
> the maximum encapsulation of the pigment particles.

European suppliers are easier for me. There are a lot of varnishes available
not intended for silkscreen printing but usable in silkscreen printing. As
the layer shouldn't be too thick a fine fabric is needed. Thin varnishes if
not drying too fast will then be printable.
The setup for silkscreen printing doesn't make it economic for single prints
or more prints of different sizes.
If the quantity gets above 25 then it becomes a nice process.
There is a supplier of Aquaseal here but that goes per 5 gallon and is
pricey.. Aquaseal is used in dedicated protection coating machines for
inkjet.
What Robert suggests: applying with a rod is a nice possibility. Spraying
isn't bad either. A wax coater like they used in graphic design in the past
may be usable too. Maybe my old Copyproof machine gets a new life.
I've checked the First method on the web again. They call it ColorLock
nowaday. Still very nice. See for example:
http://www.enduragloss.com/Merchant/Media/media_first.htm

I still wonder why they didn't introduce that for paper. Ilford has/had
something in the pipeline but I can't find it anymore on their site. Could
be a patent issue. On Thursday I will be on the Fotokina and try to get an
answer there.

Ernst

On 9/23/02 1:31 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:

> There's a general attitude in the printing industry that varnishes may be
> worse than the inks themselves.
> In the past the risk of varnishes getting yellow or brittle on hardening and
> UV exposure was something to count with. I'm using some of the best outdoor
> vinyl inks in silkscreen printing: Sericol's Polyplast E series.
> In the specs pages they advise to use them without an overprint varnish.
> Only where the surface may be subject to abrasion etc they advise to use a
> Polyplast varnish.

It is impossible to make general statements about varnishes yellowing.
There is a very large range of possible polymer technologies.  Some of them
yellow badly (e.g., polyurethanes) while others are quite good.  The
manufacturers of products frequently make decisions based on their potential
use which frequently require shot term display and the product needs to be
cheap.

Robert

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Coating, was Photogravure


> On 9/23/02 1:31 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> > There's a general attitude in the printing industry that varnishes may
be
> > worse than the inks themselves.
> > In the past the risk of varnishes getting yellow or brittle on hardening
and
> > UV exposure was something to count with. I'm using some of the best
outdoor
> > vinyl inks in silkscreen printing: Sericol's Polyplast E series.
> > In the specs pages they advise to use them without an overprint varnish.
> > Only where the surface may be subject to abrasion etc they advise to use
a
> > Polyplast varnish.
>
> It is impossible to make general statements about varnishes yellowing.
> There is a very large range of possible polymer technologies.  Some of
them
> yellow badly (e.g., polyurethanes) while others are quite good.  The
> manufacturers of products frequently make decisions based on their
potential
> use which frequently require shot term display and the product needs to be
> cheap.

I have to agree on that but the problems we have had in the past were not
the result of  of cheap materials but rather bad advice from ink suppliers.

We print quite a lot of different varnishes. UV curing varnish on offset
printed material, spot and full size is most of that work. The problems over
a 25 year experience have been with two component epoxy varnish and an
alkyde varnish for outdoor work, yellow casts or too much hardening as a
result. Both printed on difficult substrates like Alucobond with a white
polyester coating or Melamine. Acryl couldn't be used. Normaly Acryls were
best in my experience, there are varieties of acryls and copolymeres of
course and it is hard to tell what is in it and what makes the difference.
Manufacturers are not that open. Of the varnishes that we have none is
usable for inkjet paper so far. Not to my taste I should write.

ERnst

On 9/23/02 10:56 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:

> We print quite a lot of different varnishes. UV curing varnish on offset
> printed material, spot and full size is most of that work. The problems over
> a 25 year experience have been with two component epoxy varnish and an
> alkyde varnish for outdoor work, yellow casts or too much hardening as a
> result. Both printed on difficult substrates like Alucobond with a white
> polyester coating or Melamine. Acryl couldn't be used. Normaly Acryls were
> best in my experience, there are varieties of acryls and copolymeres of
> course and it is hard to tell what is in it and what makes the difference.
> Manufacturers are not that open. Of the varnishes that we have none is
> usable for inkjet paper so far. Not to my taste I should write.

Understand, UV curable varnishes will be trouble for this application.
That's one reason that I stayed clear or screen coating techniques...the
polymers out there are not ideal for the properties that we want a "fine
art" print to possess.  The best polymers for coating come out the
"paint/coating" industry...and do not lend themselves to screening.

Robert

Robert Morrison wrote:
> 
> On 9/23/02 10:56 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
> 
> > We print quite a lot of different varnishes. UV curing varnish on offset
> > printed material, spot and full size is most of that work. The problems over
> > a 25 year experience have been with two component epoxy varnish and an
> > alkyde varnish for outdoor work, yellow casts or too much hardening as a
> > result. Both printed on difficult substrates like Alucobond with a white
> > polyester coating or Melamine. Acryl couldn't be used. Normaly Acryls were
> > best in my experience, there are varieties of acryls and copolymeres of
> > course and it is hard to tell what is in it and what makes the difference.
> > Manufacturers are not that open. Of the varnishes that we have none is
> > usable for inkjet paper so far. Not to my taste I should write.
> 
> Understand, UV curable varnishes will be trouble for this application.
> That's one reason that I stayed clear or screen coating techniques...the
> polymers out there are not ideal for the properties that we want a "fine
> art" print to possess.  The best polymers for coating come out the
> "paint/coating" industry...and do not lend themselves to screening.
> 
> Robert

Robert... I missed something....

Is this something that you are working on for your own use OR are you
planning an selling your system to others?

-Jeff

>
> I still wonder why they didn't introduce that for paper. Ilford has/had
> something in the pipeline but I can't find it anymore on their site. Could
> be a patent issue. On Thursday I will be on the Fotokina and try to get an
> answer there.

Been on the Ilford Fotokina stand. A Belgian representative of Ilford said
that the heat curable coating that seals prints was still in development. He
had hoped it would have been on the Fotokina. The unit that seals the print
is however in line with the printer and not a separate unit. As Ilford now
seems to switch from rebranded Encads with Ilford inks to Epsons 9600 + 7600
+ Ultrachrome bundled with appropriate RIPs for photo shops etc I wonder
whether there is a need for an extra coating for their market. 75+ years
fade resistance for Epson Ultrachrome was to be seen all over the place on
the Fotokina.

When asked about their line of quad inks the Ilford man wasn't sure they
will continue the Monokrome pigment set they deliver for Encads etc. The
market was very small for it. In view of the Epson x600 line they sell now
that step is understandable.

The First vinyl foil manufactuers were at the Roland stand. They see no
market for a heat curable coating on paper similar to the vinyl they
produce.

On the Mitsubishi HiTec Paper stand a paper print was shown that was
constantly in a stream of water, no change in the image was visible. The
paper is called Jetscript, I have to check what it is exactly.

Seen a lot of nice B&W 9600 and 7600 prints, the only quads and small gamut
prints I have seen were at the Lyson stand. They were not nice at all if
compared to the Ultrachrome B&W prints.

Ernst