Digital BW, The Print

Vinny,

Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting and working with some 
chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll scan as RGB and wasn't 
sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS before applying Paul's 
curves.

Bob

Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan picks up any sort 
of color, which it normally does, before printing change to grayscale 
and back to rgb and you should be allright

Vinny


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a... wrote:
> Vinny,
> 
> Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting and working 
with some 
> chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll scan as RGB and 
wasn't 
> sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS before applying 
Paul's 

> curves.
> 
> Bob

For the 2nd conversion from greyscale to RGB to prepare for printing:
It may be implied, but also make sure that you are not in your editing 
 greyscale space (the greyscale space you use to get your monitor to 
match print, 20%dot gain, more likely a custom dot gain curve, etc), 
and make sure that you are in the appropiate RGB space Paul's calls 
out for your printer/OS combo. In most cases this is conversion from 
the grayscale space of "gamma 2.2" to either "sRGB" or "Adobe98".

But I question if the first conversion from RGB to greyscale would not 
comb out your image data and cause posterization even before you had a 
chance to work on it. Have to be checked anyway. Might be okay if you 
were in 16 bit mode.
Jim H.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando" 
<orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan picks up any sort 
> of color, which it normally does, before printing change to 
grayscale 

> and back to rgb and you should be allright
> 
> Vinny
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a... wrote:
> > Vinny,
> > 
> > Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting and working 
> with some 
> > chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll scan as RGB and 
> wasn't 
> > sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS before applying 
> Paul's 
> > curves.
> > 
> > Bob

I did the conversion as the last thing. After all my editing I just 
converted to GS and back to RGB. I didn't seem to lose anything. I am 
working in the color space that Paul advised. I have one in the 
printer now that I printed with a color printer first so I can 
compare them

Vinny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes" <jimhayes@j...> 
wrote:
> For the 2nd conversion from greyscale to RGB to prepare for 
printing:
> It may be implied, but also make sure that you are not in your 
editing 
>  greyscale space (the greyscale space you use to get your monitor 
to 
> match print, 20%dot gain, more likely a custom dot gain curve, 
etc), 
> and make sure that you are in the appropiate RGB space Paul's calls 
> out for your printer/OS combo. In most cases this is conversion 
from 
> the grayscale space of "gamma 2.2" to either "sRGB" or "Adobe98".
> 
> But I question if the first conversion from RGB to greyscale would 
not 
> comb out your image data and cause posterization even before you 
had a 
> chance to work on it. Have to be checked anyway. Might be okay if 
you 
> were in 16 bit mode.
> Jim H.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando" 
> <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> > Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan picks up any 
sort 
> > of color, which it normally does, before printing change to 
> grayscale 
> > and back to rgb and you should be allright
> > 
> > Vinny
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a... wrote:
> > > Vinny,
> > > 
> > > Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting and 
working 
> > with some 
> > > chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll scan as RGB 
and 
> > wasn't 
> > > sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS before 
applying 

> > Paul's 
> > > curves.
> > > 
> > > Bob

Jim, looking at the histogram I don't see any clipping, the print 
came out very smooth. No diff between the color print or the B&W with 
the warm curve except the color

Vinny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando" 
<orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> 
> I did the conversion as the last thing. After all my editing I just 
> converted to GS and back to RGB. I didn't seem to lose anything. I 
am 
> working in the color space that Paul advised. I have one in the 
> printer now that I printed with a color printer first so I can 
> compare them
> 
> Vinny
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes" 
<jimhayes@j...> 
> wrote:
> > For the 2nd conversion from greyscale to RGB to prepare for 
> printing:
> > It may be implied, but also make sure that you are not in your 
> editing 
> >  greyscale space (the greyscale space you use to get your monitor 
> to 
> > match print, 20%dot gain, more likely a custom dot gain curve, 
> etc), 
> > and make sure that you are in the appropiate RGB space Paul's 
calls 
> > out for your printer/OS combo. In most cases this is conversion 
> from 
> > the grayscale space of "gamma 2.2" to either "sRGB" or "Adobe98".
> > 
> > But I question if the first conversion from RGB to greyscale 
would 
> not 
> > comb out your image data and cause posterization even before you 
> had a 
> > chance to work on it. Have to be checked anyway. Might be okay if 
> you 
> > were in 16 bit mode.
> > Jim H.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando" 
> > <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> > > Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan picks up any 
> sort 
> > > of color, which it normally does, before printing change to 
> > grayscale 
> > > and back to rgb and you should be allright
> > > 
> > > Vinny
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a... wrote:
> > > > Vinny,
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting and 
> working 
> > > with some 
> > > > chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll scan as 
RGB 

> and 
> > > wasn't 
> > > > sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS before 
> applying 
> > > Paul's 
> > > > curves.
> > > > 
> > > > Bob

Vinny,

Well in hand then. I was just more or less stating the obvious 
cautions.<g>

Interesting thing though this reminds me of: Sometimes I can get 
overly concerned with histograms. Historams aren't prints. If the 
print looks good to your or my eye, that is the most important. I have 
good looking prints that have both great and terrible looking histos.

I may get an argument on that...<g>
Jim H. 




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando" 
<orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> 
> Jim, looking at the histogram I don't see any clipping, the print 
> came out very smooth. No diff between the color print or the B&W 
with 
> the warm curve except the color
> 
> Vinny
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando" 
> <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > I did the conversion as the last thing. After all my editing I 
just 

> > converted to GS and back to RGB. I didn't seem to lose anything. I 
> am 
> > working in the color space that Paul advised. I have one in the 
> > printer now that I printed with a color printer first so I can 
> > compare them
> > 
> > Vinny
> >

Jim, 
i have been improving my Photoshop skills with a book called 
Photoshop 7 Artistry by Barry Haynes. It is a excellent book for me. 
There are many hands on tutorials using levels etc. Some of the 
Histograms that you end up with look terrible, but the finished pics 
look great.
So I think that your advice to look at the end result rather than 
stare at a histogram is good.
I would only add the comment that you should use 16 bit mode as far 
as is posssible. 

Barry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes" 
<jimhayes@j...> wrote:
> Vinny,
> 
> Well in hand then. I was just more or less stating the obvious 
> cautions.<g>
> 
> Interesting thing though this reminds me of: Sometimes I can get 
> overly concerned with histograms. Historams aren't prints. If the 
> print looks good to your or my eye, that is the most important. I 
have 
> good looking prints that have both great and terrible looking 
histos.
> 
> I may get an argument on that...<g>
> Jim H. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando" 
> <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > Jim, looking at the histogram I don't see any clipping, the 
print 
> > came out very smooth. No diff between the color print or the B&W 
> with 
> > the warm curve except the color
> > 
> > Vinny
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando" 
> > <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I did the conversion as the last thing. After all my editing I 
> just 
> > > converted to GS and back to RGB. I didn't seem to lose 
anything. I 
> > am 
> > > working in the color space that Paul advised. I have one in 
the 

> > > printer now that I printed with a color printer first so I can 
> > > compare them
> > > 
> > > Vinny
> > >

A generic colour space question.

I print colour to a labs lighjet via digital files (colour space / 
profile must be sRBG).  

I print B&W to an Epson 1290 with MIS VM and CIS.  Pauls Curves are 
supposed to be used with an AdobeRBG colour space.

I am not too hot on the whole colour management schebang yet.  But as 
a lot of my files are colour (convertded to B&W), I wanted to use the 
same profile for all.

So...Any idea what happens with the PR curves when I use sRBG, or 
vice versa, if I send my digital files to the lab with an Adobe RGB 
profile?

Any way I can simplify my workflow - as the moment it is a hotchpotch 
of profile mismatches and conversions.

Thanks

Steve.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes" <jimhayes@j...> 
wrote:
> For the 2nd conversion from greyscale to RGB to prepare for 
printing:
> It may be implied, but also make sure that you are not in your 
editing 
>  greyscale space (the greyscale space you use to get your monitor 
to 
> match print, 20%dot gain, more likely a custom dot gain curve, 
etc), 
> and make sure that you are in the appropiate RGB space Paul's calls 
> out for your printer/OS combo. In most cases this is conversion 
from 
> the grayscale space of "gamma 2.2" to either "sRGB" or "Adobe98".
> 
> But I question if the first conversion from RGB to greyscale would 
not 
> comb out your image data and cause posterization even before you 
had a 
> chance to work on it. Have to be checked anyway. Might be okay if 
you 
> were in 16 bit mode.
> Jim H.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando" 
> <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> > Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan picks up any 
sort 
> > of color, which it normally does, before printing change to 
> grayscale 
> > and back to rgb and you should be allright
> > 
> > Vinny
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a... wrote:
> > > Vinny,
> > > 
> > > Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting and 
working 
> > with some 
> > > chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll scan as RGB 
and 
> > wasn't 
> > > sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS before 
applying 

> > Paul's 
> > > curves.
> > > 
> > > Bob

Jim, you wont get an argument from me. If it looks good coming out of 
the printer thats all I can ask. I very seldom look a the histo 
unless there is a problem

vinny
http://www.wulfsden.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes" <jimhayes@j...> 
wrote:
> Vinny,
> 
> Well in hand then. I was just more or less stating the obvious 
> cautions.<g>
> 
> Interesting thing though this reminds me of: Sometimes I can get 
> overly concerned with histograms. Historams aren't prints. If the 
> print looks good to your or my eye, that is the most important. I 
have 
> good looking prints that have both great and terrible looking 
histos.
> 
> I may get an argument on that...<g>
> Jim H. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando" 
> <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > Jim, looking at the histogram I don't see any clipping, the print 
> > came out very smooth. No diff between the color print or the B&W 
> with 
> > the warm curve except the color
> > 
> > Vinny
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando" 
> > <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I did the conversion as the last thing. After all my editing I 
> just 
> > > converted to GS and back to RGB. I didn't seem to lose 
anything. I 

> > am 
> > > working in the color space that Paul advised. I have one in the 
> > > printer now that I printed with a color printer first so I can 
> > > compare them
> > > 
> > > Vinny
> > >

Steve,

As it relates to the MIS curves, the sRGB space appears to simply compress
the dark tones slightly compared to the Adobe RGB.

Paul
_____________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@...]
  Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:35 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - adobeRGB vs sRGB ?


  A generic colour space question.

  I print colour to a labs lighjet via digital files (colour space /
  profile must be sRBG).

  I print B&W to an Epson 1290 with MIS VM and CIS.  Pauls Curves are
  supposed to be used with an AdobeRBG colour space.

  I am not too hot on the whole colour management schebang yet.  But as
  a lot of my files are colour (convertded to B&W), I wanted to use the
  same profile for all.

  So...Any idea what happens with the PR curves when I use sRBG, or
  vice versa, if I send my digital files to the lab with an Adobe RGB
  profile?

  Any way I can simplify my workflow - as the moment it is a hotchpotch
  of profile mismatches and conversions.

  Thanks

  Steve.


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes" <jimhayes@j...>
  wrote:
  > For the 2nd conversion from greyscale to RGB to prepare for
  printing:
  > It may be implied, but also make sure that you are not in your
  editing
  >  greyscale space (the greyscale space you use to get your monitor
  to
  > match print, 20%dot gain, more likely a custom dot gain curve,
  etc),
  > and make sure that you are in the appropiate RGB space Paul's calls
  > out for your printer/OS combo. In most cases this is conversion
  from
  > the grayscale space of "gamma 2.2" to either "sRGB" or "Adobe98".
  >
  > But I question if the first conversion from RGB to greyscale would
  not
  > comb out your image data and cause posterization even before you
  had a
  > chance to work on it. Have to be checked anyway. Might be okay if
  you
  > were in 16 bit mode.
  > Jim H.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando"
  > <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
  > > Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan picks up any
  sort
  > > of color, which it normally does, before printing change to
  > grayscale
  > > and back to rgb and you should be allright
  > >
  > > Vinny
  > >
  > >
  > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a... wrote:
  > > > Vinny,
  > > >
  > > > Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting and
  working
  > > with some
  > > > chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll scan as RGB
  and
  > > wasn't
  > > > sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS before
  applying
  > > Paul's
  > > > curves.
  > > >
  > > > Bob


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Paul.  Do you know if there is a way that I can use AdobeRGB 
as a working space, but then 'convert' files to sRGB when I need to 
send them out to the lab?

Is AdobeRGB only necessary for your curves when the final conversion 
to RGB for print is necessary (ie could I work in sRGB all the time, 
then prior to applying the curves on the print file, convert to Adobe 
RGB)?

Or I am making all this orribly complicated???


PS.  Thanks for the revisted 1290 W1 curve - I will let you know how 
I get on and will send you a scan.  I'd be surprised if the originals 
were corrupted - I got them on 4 seperate occaisons and they are all 
the same.  

steve. 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> As it relates to the MIS curves, the sRGB space appears to simply 
compress
> the dark tones slightly compared to the Adobe RGB.
> 
> Paul
> _____________________________
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@m...]
>   Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:35 AM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - adobeRGB vs sRGB ?
> 
> 
>   A generic colour space question.
> 
>   I print colour to a labs lighjet via digital files (colour space /
>   profile must be sRBG).
> 
>   I print B&W to an Epson 1290 with MIS VM and CIS.  Pauls Curves 
are
>   supposed to be used with an AdobeRBG colour space.
> 
>   I am not too hot on the whole colour management schebang yet.  
But as
>   a lot of my files are colour (convertded to B&W), I wanted to use 
the
>   same profile for all.
> 
>   So...Any idea what happens with the PR curves when I use sRBG, or
>   vice versa, if I send my digital files to the lab with an Adobe 
RGB
>   profile?
> 
>   Any way I can simplify my workflow - as the moment it is a 
hotchpotch
>   of profile mismatches and conversions.
> 
>   Thanks
> 
>   Steve.
> 
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes" 
<jimhayes@j...>
>   wrote:
>   > For the 2nd conversion from greyscale to RGB to prepare for
>   printing:
>   > It may be implied, but also make sure that you are not in your
>   editing
>   >  greyscale space (the greyscale space you use to get your 
monitor
>   to
>   > match print, 20%dot gain, more likely a custom dot gain curve,
>   etc),
>   > and make sure that you are in the appropiate RGB space Paul's 
calls
>   > out for your printer/OS combo. In most cases this is conversion
>   from
>   > the grayscale space of "gamma 2.2" to either "sRGB" 
or "Adobe98".
>   >
>   > But I question if the first conversion from RGB to greyscale 
would
>   not
>   > comb out your image data and cause posterization even before you
>   had a
>   > chance to work on it. Have to be checked anyway. Might be okay 
if
>   you
>   > were in 16 bit mode.
>   > Jim H.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando"
>   > <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
>   > > Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan picks up any
>   sort
>   > > of color, which it normally does, before printing change to
>   > grayscale
>   > > and back to rgb and you should be allright
>   > >
>   > > Vinny
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a... 
wrote:
>   > > > Vinny,
>   > > >
>   > > > Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting and
>   working
>   > > with some
>   > > > chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll scan as 
RGB
>   and
>   > > wasn't
>   > > > sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS before
>   applying
>   > > Paul's
>   > > > curves.
>   > > >
>   > > > Bob
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service.

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,

Work in grayscale, not RGB.  Then you convert to RGB *only* for printing.  I
never save the RGB file.  As soon as the printer is going, I delete it.  If
you work in g/s, you can convert to any RGB space you'd like.  If you are
sending files to a lab, send them in g/s and let the lab convert to their
space.

Paul
________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@...]
  Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 8:11 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - AdobeRGB vs sRGB ?



  Thanks Paul.  Do you know if there is a way that I can use AdobeRGB
  as a working space, but then 'convert' files to sRGB when I need to
  send them out to the lab?

  Is AdobeRGB only necessary for your curves when the final conversion
  to RGB for print is necessary (ie could I work in sRGB all the time,
  then prior to applying the curves on the print file, convert to Adobe
  RGB)?

  Or I am making all this orribly complicated???


  PS.  Thanks for the revisted 1290 W1 curve - I will let you know how
  I get on and will send you a scan.  I'd be surprised if the originals
  were corrupted - I got them on 4 seperate occaisons and they are all
  the same.

  steve.



  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
  <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
  > Steve,
  >
  > As it relates to the MIS curves, the sRGB space appears to simply
  compress
  > the dark tones slightly compared to the Adobe RGB.
  >
  > Paul
  > _____________________________
  >   -----Original Message-----
  >   From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@m...]
  >   Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:35 AM
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
  >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - adobeRGB vs sRGB ?
  >
  >
  >   A generic colour space question.
  >
  >   I print colour to a labs lighjet via digital files (colour space /
  >   profile must be sRBG).
  >
  >   I print B&W to an Epson 1290 with MIS VM and CIS.  Pauls Curves
  are
  >   supposed to be used with an AdobeRBG colour space.
  >
  >   I am not too hot on the whole colour management schebang yet.
  But as
  >   a lot of my files are colour (convertded to B&W), I wanted to use
  the
  >   same profile for all.
  >
  >   So...Any idea what happens with the PR curves when I use sRBG, or
  >   vice versa, if I send my digital files to the lab with an Adobe
  RGB
  >   profile?
  >
  >   Any way I can simplify my workflow - as the moment it is a
  hotchpotch
  >   of profile mismatches and conversions.
  >
  >   Thanks
  >
  >   Steve.
  >
  >
  >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes"
  <jimhayes@j...>
  >   wrote:
  >   > For the 2nd conversion from greyscale to RGB to prepare for
  >   printing:
  >   > It may be implied, but also make sure that you are not in your
  >   editing
  >   >  greyscale space (the greyscale space you use to get your
  monitor
  >   to
  >   > match print, 20%dot gain, more likely a custom dot gain curve,
  >   etc),
  >   > and make sure that you are in the appropiate RGB space Paul's
  calls
  >   > out for your printer/OS combo. In most cases this is conversion
  >   from
  >   > the grayscale space of "gamma 2.2" to either "sRGB"
  or "Adobe98".
  >   >
  >   > But I question if the first conversion from RGB to greyscale
  would
  >   not
  >   > comb out your image data and cause posterization even before you
  >   had a
  >   > chance to work on it. Have to be checked anyway. Might be okay
  if
  >   you
  >   > were in 16 bit mode.
  >   > Jim H.
  >   >
  >   >
  >   >
  >   >
  >   > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando"
  >   > <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
  >   > > Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan picks up any
  >   sort
  >   > > of color, which it normally does, before printing change to
  >   > grayscale
  >   > > and back to rgb and you should be allright
  >   > >
  >   > > Vinny
  >   > >
  >   > >
  >   > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a...
  wrote:
  >   > > > Vinny,
  >   > > >
  >   > > > Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting and
  >   working
  >   > > with some
  >   > > > chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll scan as
  RGB
  >   and
  >   > > wasn't
  >   > > > sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS before
  >   applying
  >   > > Paul's
  >   > > > curves.
  >   > > >
  >   > > > Bob
  >
  >
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  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If I may ask, why is it important to work in grayscale?  I usually 
scan B&W as RGB as it seems to take better advantage of my Nikon ls 
2000 and then work in desaturated rgb unitil I am ready to print. I 
have always assumed that even desaturated rgb provides more data 
points than grayscale.. I could certainly go right to grayscale after 
desaturating.  This is a real question, not a comment.  (I use Adobe 
rgb.)

Steve


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> Work in grayscale, not RGB.  Then you convert to RGB *only* for 
printing.  I
> never save the RGB file.  As soon as the printer is going, I delete 
it.  If
> you work in g/s, you can convert to any RGB space you'd like.  If 
you are
> sending files to a lab, send them in g/s and let the lab convert to 
their
> space.
> 
> Paul
> ________________________
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@m...]
>   Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 8:11 AM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - AdobeRGB vs sRGB ?
> 
> 
> 
>   Thanks Paul.  Do you know if there is a way that I can use 
AdobeRGB
>   as a working space, but then 'convert' files to sRGB when I need 
to
>   send them out to the lab?
> 
>   Is AdobeRGB only necessary for your curves when the final 
conversion
>   to RGB for print is necessary (ie could I work in sRGB all the 
time,
>   then prior to applying the curves on the print file, convert to 
Adobe
>   RGB)?
> 
>   Or I am making all this orribly complicated???
> 
> 
>   PS.  Thanks for the revisted 1290 W1 curve - I will let you know 
how
>   I get on and will send you a scan.  I'd be surprised if the 
originals
>   were corrupted - I got them on 4 seperate occaisons and they are 
all
>   the same.
> 
>   steve.
> 
> 
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
>   <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>   > Steve,
>   >
>   > As it relates to the MIS curves, the sRGB space appears to 
simply
>   compress
>   > the dark tones slightly compared to the Adobe RGB.
>   >
>   > Paul
>   > _____________________________
>   >   -----Original Message-----
>   >   From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@m...]
>   >   Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:35 AM
>   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>   >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - adobeRGB vs sRGB ?
>   >
>   >
>   >   A generic colour space question.
>   >
>   >   I print colour to a labs lighjet via digital files (colour 
space /
>   >   profile must be sRBG).
>   >
>   >   I print B&W to an Epson 1290 with MIS VM and CIS.  Pauls 
Curves
>   are
>   >   supposed to be used with an AdobeRBG colour space.
>   >
>   >   I am not too hot on the whole colour management schebang yet.
>   But as
>   >   a lot of my files are colour (convertded to B&W), I wanted to 
use
>   the
>   >   same profile for all.
>   >
>   >   So...Any idea what happens with the PR curves when I use 
sRBG, or
>   >   vice versa, if I send my digital files to the lab with an 
Adobe
>   RGB
>   >   profile?
>   >
>   >   Any way I can simplify my workflow - as the moment it is a
>   hotchpotch
>   >   of profile mismatches and conversions.
>   >
>   >   Thanks
>   >
>   >   Steve.
>   >
>   >
>   >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes"
>   <jimhayes@j...>
>   >   wrote:
>   >   > For the 2nd conversion from greyscale to RGB to prepare for
>   >   printing:
>   >   > It may be implied, but also make sure that you are not in 
your
>   >   editing
>   >   >  greyscale space (the greyscale space you use to get your
>   monitor
>   >   to
>   >   > match print, 20%dot gain, more likely a custom dot gain 
curve,
>   >   etc),
>   >   > and make sure that you are in the appropiate RGB space 
Paul's
>   calls
>   >   > out for your printer/OS combo. In most cases this is 
conversion
>   >   from
>   >   > the grayscale space of "gamma 2.2" to either "sRGB"
>   or "Adobe98".
>   >   >
>   >   > But I question if the first conversion from RGB to greyscale
>   would
>   >   not
>   >   > comb out your image data and cause posterization even 
before you
>   >   had a
>   >   > chance to work on it. Have to be checked anyway. Might be 
okay
>   if
>   >   you
>   >   > were in 16 bit mode.
>   >   > Jim H.
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent Orlando"
>   >   > <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
>   >   > > Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan picks 
up any
>   >   sort
>   >   > > of color, which it normally does, before printing change 
to
>   >   > grayscale
>   >   > > and back to rgb and you should be allright
>   >   > >
>   >   > > Vinny
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a...
>   wrote:
>   >   > > > Vinny,
>   >   > > >
>   >   > > > Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting 
and
>   >   working
>   >   > > with some
>   >   > > > chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll scan 
as
>   RGB
>   >   and
>   >   > > wasn't
>   >   > > > sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS 
before
>   >   applying
>   >   > > Paul's
>   >   > > > curves.
>   >   > > >
>   >   > > > Bob
>   >
>   >
>   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   >               ADVERTISEMENT
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
>   Polls and
>   > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
you
>   wish to
>   > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>   this same
>   > page.
>   >
>   >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   >   - Include your full name with your message.
>   >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
>   messages to keep
>   > them short.
>   >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject
>   header.
>   >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or
>   > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>   >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
the
>   various
>   > resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>   Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service.

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are four (or six) grey/k/toner inks in the printer, not color. 
For example, yellow is really light grey. Paul designed the curves so 
that a greyscale file converted using the correct spaces from 
greyscale to RGB will use the balanced amount of light grey thru k ink 
on the print to reproduce what is on the monitor.

IOW, BW prints are obtained with MIS VM inks by fooling the printer 
into thinking it is printing an RGB image. But Paul's curve carefully 
blends the light/dark/ toner inks to create a BW image.

So if you had a greyscale picture that had a yellow cast that you 
scanned in as RGB and just directly applied Paul's curve to it, a lot 
of light grey ("yellow") ink would show up in it.

If you get the scanned RGB image converted to greyscale and it then 
looks okay, assuming your monitor working space is okay, then you are 
all set. But you still must carefully convert from the specific called 
out greyscale space of "gamma 2.2" to the correct exact RGB space 
called out for your printer (either sRGB or Adobe98, as per MIS 
instructions). Or Paul's curves won't apply the "colors" properly so 
that the printer can be fooled into printing properly.
Jim H.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "voranado" <skobrin@h...> 
wrote:
> If I may ask, why is it important to work in grayscale?  I usually 
> scan B&W as RGB as it seems to take better advantage of my Nikon ls 
> 2000 and then work in desaturated rgb unitil I am ready to print. I 
> have always assumed that even desaturated rgb provides more data 
> points than grayscale.. I could certainly go right to grayscale 
after 
> desaturating.  This is a real question, not a comment.  (I use Adobe 
> rgb.)
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Steve,
> > 
> > Work in grayscale, not RGB.  Then you convert to RGB *only* for 
> printing.  I
> > never save the RGB file.  As soon as the printer is going, I 
delete 
> it.  If
> > you work in g/s, you can convert to any RGB space you'd like.  If 
> you are
> > sending files to a lab, send them in g/s and let the lab convert 
to 
> their
> > space.
> > 
> > Paul
> > ________________________
> >   -----Original Message-----
> >   From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@m...]
> >   Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 8:11 AM
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - AdobeRGB vs sRGB ?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Thanks Paul.  Do you know if there is a way that I can use 
> AdobeRGB
> >   as a working space, but then 'convert' files to sRGB when I need 
> to
> >   send them out to the lab?
> > 
> >   Is AdobeRGB only necessary for your curves when the final 
> conversion
> >   to RGB for print is necessary (ie could I work in sRGB all the 
> time,
> >   then prior to applying the curves on the print file, convert to 
> Adobe
> >   RGB)?
> > 
> >   Or I am making all this orribly complicated???
> > 
> > 
> >   PS.  Thanks for the revisted 1290 W1 curve - I will let you know 
> how
> >   I get on and will send you a scan.  I'd be surprised if the 
> originals
> >   were corrupted - I got them on 4 seperate occaisons and they are 
> all
> >   the same.
> > 
> >   steve.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
> >   <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >   > Steve,
> >   >
> >   > As it relates to the MIS curves, the sRGB space appears to 
> simply
> >   compress
> >   > the dark tones slightly compared to the Adobe RGB.
> >   >
> >   > Paul
> >   > _____________________________
> >   >   -----Original Message-----
> >   >   From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@m...]
> >   >   Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:35 AM
> >   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >   >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - adobeRGB vs sRGB 
?
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   A generic colour space question.
> >   >
> >   >   I print colour to a labs lighjet via digital files (colour 
> space /
> >   >   profile must be sRBG).
> >   >
> >   >   I print B&W to an Epson 1290 with MIS VM and CIS.  Pauls 
> Curves
> >   are
> >   >   supposed to be used with an AdobeRBG colour space.
> >   >
> >   >   I am not too hot on the whole colour management schebang 
yet.
> >   But as
> >   >   a lot of my files are colour (convertded to B&W), I wanted 
to 
> use
> >   the
> >   >   same profile for all.
> >   >
> >   >   So...Any idea what happens with the PR curves when I use 
> sRBG, or
> >   >   vice versa, if I send my digital files to the lab with an 
> Adobe
> >   RGB
> >   >   profile?
> >   >
> >   >   Any way I can simplify my workflow - as the moment it is a
> >   hotchpotch
> >   >   of profile mismatches and conversions.
> >   >
> >   >   Thanks
> >   >
> >   >   Steve.
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes"
> >   <jimhayes@j...>
> >   >   wrote:
> >   >   > For the 2nd conversion from greyscale to RGB to prepare 
for
> >   >   printing:
> >   >   > It may be implied, but also make sure that you are not in 
> your
> >   >   editing
> >   >   >  greyscale space (the greyscale space you use to get your
> >   monitor
> >   >   to
> >   >   > match print, 20%dot gain, more likely a custom dot gain 
> curve,
> >   >   etc),
> >   >   > and make sure that you are in the appropiate RGB space 
> Paul's
> >   calls
> >   >   > out for your printer/OS combo. In most cases this is 
> conversion
> >   >   from
> >   >   > the grayscale space of "gamma 2.2" to either "sRGB"
> >   or "Adobe98".
> >   >   >
> >   >   > But I question if the first conversion from RGB to 
greyscale
> >   would
> >   >   not
> >   >   > comb out your image data and cause posterization even 
> before you
> >   >   had a
> >   >   > chance to work on it. Have to be checked anyway. Might be 
> okay
> >   if
> >   >   you
> >   >   > were in 16 bit mode.
> >   >   > Jim H.
> >   >   >
> >   >   >
> >   >   >
> >   >   >
> >   >   > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent 
Orlando"
> >   >   > <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> >   >   > > Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan picks 
> up any
> >   >   sort
> >   >   > > of color, which it normally does, before printing change 
> to
> >   >   > grayscale
> >   >   > > and back to rgb and you should be allright
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > > Vinny
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a...
> >   wrote:
> >   >   > > > Vinny,
> >   >   > > >
> >   >   > > > Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting 
> and
> >   >   working
> >   >   > > with some
> >   >   > > > chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll 
scan 
> as
> >   RGB
> >   >   and
> >   >   > > wasn't
> >   >   > > > sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS 
> before
> >   >   applying
> >   >   > > Paul's
> >   >   > > > curves.
> >   >   > > >
> >   >   > > > Bob
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >   >               ADVERTISEMENT
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks,
> >   Polls and
> >   > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
at:
> >   >
> >   >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >   >
> >   >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
> you
> >   wish to
> >   > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting
> >   this same
> >   > page.
> >   >
> >   >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >   >   - Include your full name with your message.
> >   >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >   >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> >   messages to keep
> >   > them short.
> >   >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
> subject
> >   header.
> >   >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
> or
> >   > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> >   >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >   >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
> the
> >   various
> >   > resources on the homepage.
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> >   Service.
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >               ADVERTISEMENT
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
> Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
> wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same
> > page.
> > 
> >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >   - Include your full name with your message.
> >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages to keep
> > them short.
> >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject 

> header.
> >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
> various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> Service.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is exactly the problem I had when I started this thread if you 
ga back to the beginning of it

Vinny
http://www.wulfsden.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes" <jimhayes@j...> 
wrote:
> There are four (or six) grey/k/toner inks in the printer, not 
color. 
> For example, yellow is really light grey. Paul designed the curves 
so 
> that a greyscale file converted using the correct spaces from 
> greyscale to RGB will use the balanced amount of light grey thru k 
ink 
> on the print to reproduce what is on the monitor.
> 
> IOW, BW prints are obtained with MIS VM inks by fooling the printer 
> into thinking it is printing an RGB image. But Paul's curve 
carefully 
> blends the light/dark/ toner inks to create a BW image.
> 
> So if you had a greyscale picture that had a yellow cast that you 
> scanned in as RGB and just directly applied Paul's curve to it, a 
lot 
> of light grey ("yellow") ink would show up in it.
> 
> If you get the scanned RGB image converted to greyscale and it then 
> looks okay, assuming your monitor working space is okay, then you 
are 
> all set. But you still must carefully convert from the specific 
called 
> out greyscale space of "gamma 2.2" to the correct exact RGB space 
> called out for your printer (either sRGB or Adobe98, as per MIS 
> instructions). Or Paul's curves won't apply the "colors" properly 
so 
> that the printer can be fooled into printing properly.
> Jim H.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "voranado" <skobrin@h...> 
> wrote:
> > If I may ask, why is it important to work in grayscale?  I 
usually 
> > scan B&W as RGB as it seems to take better advantage of my Nikon 
ls 
> > 2000 and then work in desaturated rgb unitil I am ready to print. 
I 
> > have always assumed that even desaturated rgb provides more data 
> > points than grayscale.. I could certainly go right to grayscale 
> after 
> > desaturating.  This is a real question, not a comment.  (I use 
Adobe 
> > rgb.)
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > Steve,
> > > 
> > > Work in grayscale, not RGB.  Then you convert to RGB *only* for 
> > printing.  I
> > > never save the RGB file.  As soon as the printer is going, I 
> delete 
> > it.  If
> > > you work in g/s, you can convert to any RGB space you'd like.  
If 
> > you are
> > > sending files to a lab, send them in g/s and let the lab 
convert 
> to 
> > their
> > > space.
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > ________________________
> > >   -----Original Message-----
> > >   From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@m...]
> > >   Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 8:11 AM
> > >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - AdobeRGB vs sRGB ?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   Thanks Paul.  Do you know if there is a way that I can use 
> > AdobeRGB
> > >   as a working space, but then 'convert' files to sRGB when I 
need 
> > to
> > >   send them out to the lab?
> > > 
> > >   Is AdobeRGB only necessary for your curves when the final 
> > conversion
> > >   to RGB for print is necessary (ie could I work in sRGB all 
the 
> > time,
> > >   then prior to applying the curves on the print file, convert 
to 
> > Adobe
> > >   RGB)?
> > > 
> > >   Or I am making all this orribly complicated???
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   PS.  Thanks for the revisted 1290 W1 curve - I will let you 
know 
> > how
> > >   I get on and will send you a scan.  I'd be surprised if the 
> > originals
> > >   were corrupted - I got them on 4 seperate occaisons and they 
are 
> > all
> > >   the same.
> > > 
> > >   steve.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
> > >   <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > >   > Steve,
> > >   >
> > >   > As it relates to the MIS curves, the sRGB space appears to 
> > simply
> > >   compress
> > >   > the dark tones slightly compared to the Adobe RGB.
> > >   >
> > >   > Paul
> > >   > _____________________________
> > >   >   -----Original Message-----
> > >   >   From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@m...]
> > >   >   Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:35 AM
> > >   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > >   >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - adobeRGB vs 
sRGB 
> ?
> > >   >
> > >   >
> > >   >   A generic colour space question.
> > >   >
> > >   >   I print colour to a labs lighjet via digital files 
(colour 
> > space /
> > >   >   profile must be sRBG).
> > >   >
> > >   >   I print B&W to an Epson 1290 with MIS VM and CIS.  Pauls 
> > Curves
> > >   are
> > >   >   supposed to be used with an AdobeRBG colour space.
> > >   >
> > >   >   I am not too hot on the whole colour management schebang 
> yet.
> > >   But as
> > >   >   a lot of my files are colour (convertded to B&W), I 
wanted 
> to 
> > use
> > >   the
> > >   >   same profile for all.
> > >   >
> > >   >   So...Any idea what happens with the PR curves when I use 
> > sRBG, or
> > >   >   vice versa, if I send my digital files to the lab with an 
> > Adobe
> > >   RGB
> > >   >   profile?
> > >   >
> > >   >   Any way I can simplify my workflow - as the moment it is a
> > >   hotchpotch
> > >   >   of profile mismatches and conversions.
> > >   >
> > >   >   Thanks
> > >   >
> > >   >   Steve.
> > >   >
> > >   >
> > >   >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes"
> > >   <jimhayes@j...>
> > >   >   wrote:
> > >   >   > For the 2nd conversion from greyscale to RGB to prepare 
> for
> > >   >   printing:
> > >   >   > It may be implied, but also make sure that you are not 
in 
> > your
> > >   >   editing
> > >   >   >  greyscale space (the greyscale space you use to get 
your
> > >   monitor
> > >   >   to
> > >   >   > match print, 20%dot gain, more likely a custom dot gain 
> > curve,
> > >   >   etc),
> > >   >   > and make sure that you are in the appropiate RGB space 
> > Paul's
> > >   calls
> > >   >   > out for your printer/OS combo. In most cases this is 
> > conversion
> > >   >   from
> > >   >   > the grayscale space of "gamma 2.2" to either "sRGB"
> > >   or "Adobe98".
> > >   >   >
> > >   >   > But I question if the first conversion from RGB to 
> greyscale
> > >   would
> > >   >   not
> > >   >   > comb out your image data and cause posterization even 
> > before you
> > >   >   had a
> > >   >   > chance to work on it. Have to be checked anyway. Might 
be 
> > okay
> > >   if
> > >   >   you
> > >   >   > were in 16 bit mode.
> > >   >   > Jim H.
> > >   >   >
> > >   >   >
> > >   >   >
> > >   >   >
> > >   >   > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent 
> Orlando"
> > >   >   > <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> > >   >   > > Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan 
picks 
> > up any
> > >   >   sort
> > >   >   > > of color, which it normally does, before printing 
change 
> > to
> > >   >   > grayscale
> > >   >   > > and back to rgb and you should be allright
> > >   >   > >
> > >   >   > > Vinny
> > >   >   > >
> > >   >   > >
> > >   >   > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., 
workmantx@a...
> > >   wrote:
> > >   >   > > > Vinny,
> > >   >   > > >
> > >   >   > > > Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be 
shooting 
> > and
> > >   >   working
> > >   >   > > with some
> > >   >   > > > chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll 
> scan 
> > as
> > >   RGB
> > >   >   and
> > >   >   > > wasn't
> > >   >   > > > sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS 
> > before
> > >   >   applying
> > >   >   > > Paul's
> > >   >   > > > curves.
> > >   >   > > >
> > >   >   > > > Bob
> > >   >
> > >   >
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