Digital BW, The Print

There are four (or six) grey/k/toner inks in the printer, not color. 
For example, yellow is really light grey. Paul designed the curves so 
that a greyscale file converted using the correct spaces from 
greyscale to RGB will use the balanced amount of light grey thru k ink 
on the print to reproduce what is on the monitor.

IOW, BW prints are obtained with MIS VM inks by fooling the printer 
into thinking it is printing an RGB image. But Paul's curve carefully 
blends the light/dark/ toner inks to create a BW image.

So if you had a greyscale picture that had a yellow cast that you 
scanned in as RGB and just directly applied Paul's curve to it, a lot 
of light grey ("yellow") ink would show up in it.

If you get the scanned RGB image converted to greyscale and it then 
looks okay, assuming your monitor working space is okay, then you are 
all set. But you still must carefully convert from the specific called 
out greyscale space of "gamma 2.2" to the correct exact RGB space 
called out for your printer (either sRGB or Adobe98, as per MIS 
instructions). Or Paul's curves won't apply the "colors" properly so 
that the printer can be fooled into printing properly.
Jim H.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "voranado" <skobrin@h...> 
wrote:
> If I may ask, why is it important to work in grayscale?  I usually 
> scan B&W as RGB as it seems to take better advantage of my Nikon ls 
> 2000 and then work in desaturated rgb unitil I am ready to print. I 
> have always assumed that even desaturated rgb provides more data 
> points than grayscale.. I could certainly go right to grayscale 
after 
> desaturating.  This is a real question, not a comment.  (I use Adobe 
> rgb.)
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Steve,
> > 
> > Work in grayscale, not RGB.  Then you convert to RGB *only* for 
> printing.  I
> > never save the RGB file.  As soon as the printer is going, I 
delete 
> it.  If
> > you work in g/s, you can convert to any RGB space you'd like.  If 
> you are
> > sending files to a lab, send them in g/s and let the lab convert 
to 
> their
> > space.
> > 
> > Paul
> > ________________________
> >   -----Original Message-----
> >   From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@m...]
> >   Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 8:11 AM
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - AdobeRGB vs sRGB ?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Thanks Paul.  Do you know if there is a way that I can use 
> AdobeRGB
> >   as a working space, but then 'convert' files to sRGB when I need 
> to
> >   send them out to the lab?
> > 
> >   Is AdobeRGB only necessary for your curves when the final 
> conversion
> >   to RGB for print is necessary (ie could I work in sRGB all the 
> time,
> >   then prior to applying the curves on the print file, convert to 
> Adobe
> >   RGB)?
> > 
> >   Or I am making all this orribly complicated???
> > 
> > 
> >   PS.  Thanks for the revisted 1290 W1 curve - I will let you know 
> how
> >   I get on and will send you a scan.  I'd be surprised if the 
> originals
> >   were corrupted - I got them on 4 seperate occaisons and they are 
> all
> >   the same.
> > 
> >   steve.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
> >   <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >   > Steve,
> >   >
> >   > As it relates to the MIS curves, the sRGB space appears to 
> simply
> >   compress
> >   > the dark tones slightly compared to the Adobe RGB.
> >   >
> >   > Paul
> >   > _____________________________
> >   >   -----Original Message-----
> >   >   From: scrber [mailto:stephen.bate@m...]
> >   >   Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:35 AM
> >   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >   >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: -MIS VM problem - adobeRGB vs sRGB 
?
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   A generic colour space question.
> >   >
> >   >   I print colour to a labs lighjet via digital files (colour 
> space /
> >   >   profile must be sRBG).
> >   >
> >   >   I print B&W to an Epson 1290 with MIS VM and CIS.  Pauls 
> Curves
> >   are
> >   >   supposed to be used with an AdobeRBG colour space.
> >   >
> >   >   I am not too hot on the whole colour management schebang 
yet.
> >   But as
> >   >   a lot of my files are colour (convertded to B&W), I wanted 
to 
> use
> >   the
> >   >   same profile for all.
> >   >
> >   >   So...Any idea what happens with the PR curves when I use 
> sRBG, or
> >   >   vice versa, if I send my digital files to the lab with an 
> Adobe
> >   RGB
> >   >   profile?
> >   >
> >   >   Any way I can simplify my workflow - as the moment it is a
> >   hotchpotch
> >   >   of profile mismatches and conversions.
> >   >
> >   >   Thanks
> >   >
> >   >   Steve.
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jim hayes"
> >   <jimhayes@j...>
> >   >   wrote:
> >   >   > For the 2nd conversion from greyscale to RGB to prepare 
for
> >   >   printing:
> >   >   > It may be implied, but also make sure that you are not in 
> your
> >   >   editing
> >   >   >  greyscale space (the greyscale space you use to get your
> >   monitor
> >   >   to
> >   >   > match print, 20%dot gain, more likely a custom dot gain 
> curve,
> >   >   etc),
> >   >   > and make sure that you are in the appropiate RGB space 
> Paul's
> >   calls
> >   >   > out for your printer/OS combo. In most cases this is 
> conversion
> >   >   from
> >   >   > the grayscale space of "gamma 2.2" to either "sRGB"
> >   or "Adobe98".
> >   >   >
> >   >   > But I question if the first conversion from RGB to 
greyscale
> >   would
> >   >   not
> >   >   > comb out your image data and cause posterization even 
> before you
> >   >   had a
> >   >   > chance to work on it. Have to be checked anyway. Might be 
> okay
> >   if
> >   >   you
> >   >   > were in 16 bit mode.
> >   >   > Jim H.
> >   >   >
> >   >   >
> >   >   >
> >   >   >
> >   >   > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Vincent 
Orlando"
> >   >   > <orlandovl@h...> wrote:
> >   >   > > Bob, what I found after many hours is if the scan picks 
> up any
> >   >   sort
> >   >   > > of color, which it normally does, before printing change 
> to
> >   >   > grayscale
> >   >   > > and back to rgb and you should be allright
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > > Vinny
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., workmantx@a...
> >   wrote:
> >   >   > > > Vinny,
> >   >   > > >
> >   >   > > > Thanks for the information.  I'm going to be shooting 
> and
> >   >   working
> >   >   > > with some
> >   >   > > > chromogenic film shortly (Ilford XP2 super).  I'll 
scan 
> as
> >   RGB
> >   >   and
> >   >   > > wasn't
> >   >   > > > sure exactly how my workflow should progress in PS 
> before
> >   >   applying
> >   >   > > Paul's
> >   >   > > > curves.
> >   >   > > >
> >   >   > > > Bob
> >   >
> >   >
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