Digital BW, The Print

This assumes that the highlights don't saturate the film - hence losing 
detail. I think you have a bit more latitude with a scanner when it 
comes to development, but not a lot more. If the highlights are 
saturated - they are gone forever.

Truman

Kevin Gulstene wrote:

>Hi Ken,
>
>Let's take your high contrast scene.  Lets assume that 14 stops of 
>scene brightness are mapped to a a film density range of .05 to 1.8 
>with the zone system compensations.  When you scan that piece of film 
>and apply the set points you will then map a density of .05 to  100%k 
>and the density of 1.8 to 0%k.
>
>Take an identical exposure of the same scene with anther piece of film. 
>  This film has no development compensation.  The 14 stops of scene 
>brightness are then mapped to a density range of .06 to 2.3.  When you 
>scan that piece of film and apply the set points you will map the 
>density of of .06 to 100%k and a density of 2.3 to 0%k.
>
>It seems to me that as long as the maximum film density is within the 
>specs of your scanner it doesn't matter whether you used N or N-4 
>development.  You have to make the scene brightness fit between black 
>and white one way or another.  You can do it with development or math 
>in the scanner.  The result, it seems to me is the same.
>
>Clearly you have to set a film speed appropriately to capture the 
>shadow details but I am not convinced that modifying the film 
>development is required to capture the highlights when you are scanning 
>a negative.
>
>That is what I am trying to come to grips with.
>
>Thanks for your help
>
>On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 06:23 PM, Ken Carney wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>From my perspective, the point of the zone system is to get a 
>>>negative with
>>>      
>>>
>>reasonable shadow and highlight tones.  If you have a negative with a
>>blown-out highlight, I don't think any scanner will help you.  For 
>>example,
>>take a high contrast scene that may take N-4 development (here reduced 
>>film
>>speed and compensating development in dilute HC110 or TMax RS).  I 
>>have many
>>negs like this that scan well, but I can't picture how I could get a 
>>good
>>tonal range with say, normal development.  In fact, the only problems 
>>I have
>>had in scanning LF negs with expanded and compressed development have 
>>been
>>those developed in pyro (Rollo or PMK), since the stain produces some
>>challenges in getting a good scan.  I would say go for the best neg you
>>would use for a silver print.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>  --Ken Carney
>>    www.kencarney.com
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Kevin Gulstene" <kevin@...>
>>To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 5:53 PM
>>Subject: [Digital BW] Scanning and Zone Sys Development.
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Is zone system development time manipulation irrelevant when scanning
>>>film as opposed to traditional printing?   That is the question I 
>>>would
>>>like some help with.
>>>
>>>My understanding is that the zone system is way of ensuring a  
>>>constant
>>>density range on the negative independent of the brightness range of
>>>the scene.  This is desirable because it makes most scenes printable 
>>>on
>>>a grade 2 paper (leaving the other grades available for artistic
>>>interpretation) and it helps minimize the stuffing around in the
>>>darkroom required to get a good print.
>>>
>>>Since I am not doing wet prints but am scanning the negatives, it 
>>>seems
>>>to me that the N- or N+ development dependent on the scene brightness
>>>range is, mostly, irrelevant.  By setting the black point, setting the
>>>white point and scanning the negative am I not mapping the entire
>>>density range of the image to a numerical range of 0-256 or 0-64k?
>>>This mapping would take place independent of the absolute density any
>>>particular zone.
>>>
>>>As a hypothetical example lets assume a scene contains a 8 stop range
>>>of brightness.  Three images are similarly exposed to capture that
>>>brightnesses range. The three images are given different development
>>>times and produce density ranges of  (1.0-0.3=.7), (1.4-0.4=1.0) and
>>>(2.0-.5=1.5).  When the images are scanned each one will produce a 
>>>full
>>>histogram from 0 to 255 and a scene brightness at the 6th of the eight
>>>stops will show up at the same place in each of the histograms.
>>>
>>>Soooo, can't I simplify the zone mantra to "expose for the shadows and
>>>let the highlights fall where they may with normal development".  
>>>Also,
>>>  wouldn't it be better to generally use N+1 development times so that
>>>the numbers from the raw scan occupied more of the scanner's range?
>>>
>>>Thanks for your help
>>>
>>>
>>>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
>>>and
>>>      
>>>
>>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>    
>>
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>
>>>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
>>>to
>>>      
>>>
>>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
>>same
>>page.
>>    
>>
>>>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>- Include your full name with your message.
>>>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
>>>keep
>>>      
>>>
>>them short.
>>    
>>
>>>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
>>>header.
>>>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>>>      
>>>
>>&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>>    
>>
>>>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
>>>various
>>>      
>>>
>>resources on the homepage.
>>    
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
>>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
>>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
>>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
>>this same page.
>>
>>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>- Include your full name with your message.
>>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
>>keep them short.
>>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
>>header.
>>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>>&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
>>various resources on the homepage.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
>
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>
>  
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]