Digital BW, The Print

Thanks, I think you've got this one.  I was confused by info on the color
list.  Maybe eventually Cone will which for using pigments to tone.  Its
almost certain that initial color shifts would be the result of dye burning
off.  Its a shame they put it in in the first place...it only makes long
tern calibration more difficult...this also seems to be the case for
MIS...given the fading profile that RIT has published.

Robert

On 9/14/01 5:29 AM, "mh@..." <mh@...> wrote:

> I believe you are thinking about color piezo having no dye.
> 
> Here is what Jon Cone said about piezoBW way back on Tue Nov 28, 2000;
> 
> "Piezography*BW inks use carbon black as their base pigment with minute
>                     amounts of dye to arrive at the hue we have
> chosen. They are very sturdy
>                     subject to the paper they are printed on."
> 
> It has been proposed the hint of green that may appear at first or if
> the print gets water damaged is the natural color of the medium used to
> sustain the pigment in the solution without settling. Not really sure
> about that though, maybe they had to add green or blue because carbon
> is naturally too warm, who knows,
> 
> -mikeH
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison <
> rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>>> From what I see, Piezo has green dye or pigment in at least the
>>> Magenta position and Jon Cone has said that there are dye components
>>> in Piezo. I really wouldn't want to pick one over the other for
>>> archival life.
>> 
>> Jon has stated time and time again that there is no dye in the piezoBW
>> product as it stands.  There are numerous posts to this effect. As to
>> whether the current product is toned with color pigment...I believe that he
>> has been rather silent...but the final color looks like pure carbon black to
>> me....pure carbon black pigment is a warm black.
>> 
>>> Paul reported earlier that in his UV fade tester the Piezo warm
>>> shifted more quickly than MIS VM but that they both eventually reach
>>> very similar points. Not a plus for either of them but they seem to
>>> be the best we have to work with at the moment.
>> 
>> The scanned fade that paul posted looks to me like it has no blue it it...if
>> anything if is warm to piezo.  Forgive me if I'm missing something else.  I
>> would love to see a fade of a MIS VM, blue gray...or even one that people
>> consider to be neutral.
>>> 
>>> At this point I really don't know what to expect over the long, long
>>> haul. I think it will be display and storage dependent. The Piezo or
>>> MIS prints that last the test of time are likely to be the ones that
>>> spend less time exposed to intense UV light sources. Of course a coat
>>> of quality varnish would probaly help.;-)
>> 
>> Its a simple fact that carbon black is the most stable pigment.  Which ever
>> formulation has less of anything else is most likely to suffer the least
>> long term fading and color shift.  In the end pigments will likely not be
>> very effected by paper coatings and the vehicle in which it is applied.  Its
>> likely that initial color shifts to the extent that they occur are the
>> result of the vehicle disintegrating or even evaporating completely.  That's
>> probably why there is an initial shift and then things seem to be more
>> stable.  Its obvious that the less the light the better, but that doesn't
>> speak to the scientific reasons why one would expect one ink system to fade
>> more or less.  If they are both carbon black of similar particle size they
>> should fade the same.  As any color toner (dye or pigment) is added they
>> will be more likely to fade and color shift. This may not happen
>> immediately, but it is certain to occur in the long run...that's well
>> established science. Its likely that the blue pigment is pthalocyanine
>> based.  That's a relatively good pigment for lightfastness, but it is no
>> match for carbon black...not by a long shot. If someone had access to a IR
>> or UV spectrophotometer that can handle solutions it would be easy work to
>> figure out how the various inks are toned...if at all.  It would also be
>> interesting to see Paul do a fade with varying levels of blue toner.
>> 
>> Robert
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison"
>>> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>>>> I'd me amazed if they weren't.  The beauty of piezo (or straight
>>> MIS) is
>>>> that all the ink is pure black. No two pigments have the same fading
>>>> properties, so it would be amazing in blue faded at the same rate
>>> as black.
>>>> Most likely, it will fade faster because carbon black is the most
>>> stable
>>>> pigment known.  If this happens quickly it could be a major problem
>>> for the
>>>> MIS VM inkset for archival applications.  I'm not sure how Cone is
>>> achieving
>>>> the Selenium Toned set...but the problem could be the same.
>>>> 
>>>> Robert
>>>> 
>>>> On 9/13/01 12:00 PM, "mwesley250@e..." <mwesley250@e...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Robert,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Are you thinking the blue components will be more susceptible to
>>> UV
>>>>> fading?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Martin
>>>>> 
>>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
>>>>> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>>>>>> Got it.  Antonis and I are using his spectrophotometer to read
>>> the
>>>>> 21 step
>>>>>> wedges.  I have previously reported the dmax for the 100% black.
>>>>> We have
>>>>>> full spectrum information but haven't figured out how best to
>>>>> communicate
>>>>>> the information.  Just looked at the your scan that martin
>>> posted.
>>>>> Do you
>>>>>> have a fade of a more neutral MIS sample.  The one that I see is
>>>>> very warm
>>>>>> to even the piezo.  My guess is that as you tone the MIS blue
>>> that
>>>>> you will
>>>>>> bet much poorer fade results...but that is just a guess.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>> 
>>>>> (snip)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
>>> Polls and other
>>>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----------------------
>>>> Robert Morrison
>>>> rmorrison@p...
>>>> 
>>>> 310-397-2704
>>>> 
>>>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>>>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>> other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------
>> Robert Morrison
>> rmorrison@p...
>> 
>> 310-397-2704
>> 
>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066