Digital BW, The Print

Mike,

You asked:

>Has anyone else measured the actually loss in density of Piezo prints?

I ran a comparison fade test in my florescent light tester with MIS
(standard quads) and Piezo inks.  Both were on Epson Archival Matte, and
both were in the fader at the same time, so other possible variables were
kept to a minimum.  After 300 hours the MIS 50% patch had lost 4.6% density.
The Piezo test strip had lost 7.6% in the 50% patch. (The two blacks had
both faded 15%, but because of the intensity of the light, the black would
absorb more and heat up more.  So, I think the test conditions exaggerate
the relative fading of the dark tones.)

For most parameters I'm looking at, by 300 hours in my fader the rate of
change has slowed considerably.  So, while these prints may never totally
stabilize, I think at the 300 hour point we can see what the prints will
look like after the prints have "warmed" completely.

While the Piezo faded 65% more than MIS, neither had really faded that
dramatically.  I continue to agree with the consensus of south-window
testers that color shifting is more significant than fading.  I'll send the
scans of the test strips and control strips to Martin to put in the files
section of the forum.  (See Fade-MIS-Pzo-300Hr.jpg)

I would be curious if the scanned images look like what south-window testers
see, and how long it takes for south-window prints to take on this color.

EAM is the champ when it comes to fade resistance among the paper I've
tested.  I don't know what paper was being used below, but the alleged 2
stop fading in 60 days seems extreme.  I would guess there are some factors,
perhaps including display conditions, that we don't know about.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

______________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael J. Kravit [mailto:kravit@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 5:16 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo - Loss of Density


Last eveing I was speaking with another photographer by telepone. He
told me that in California Huntington Witheral is ready to give up on
Piezo because his display prints are losing 2 stops of density after
just 60 days on display.

Supposedly he has spoken with Jon Cone and Cone told him it was his
paper. So he has tried numerous papers and has not been able to keep
the prints from losing density (fading).

Has anyone else measured the actualy loss in density of Piezo prints?

MIke

Paul,

I put the file you sent in the "Files" section in the "Message 
Related Files" folder.

An interesting result. With eyeball alone the end results are much 
more similar than the two control images. Both seem to lose the 
cooler tones but the MIS appears to have less to start with ends up 
warmer than the Piezo.

The tonal shift is much more noticable than the fade. I would guess 
that the actual fade is only a fraction of a f-stop.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Mike,
> 
> You asked:
> 
> >Has anyone else measured the actually loss in density of Piezo 
prints?
> 
> I ran a comparison fade test in my florescent light tester with MIS
> (standard quads) and Piezo inks.  Both were on Epson Archival 
Matte, and
> both were in the fader at the same time, so other possible 
variables were
> kept to a minimum.  After 300 hours the MIS 50% patch had lost 4.6% 
density.
> The Piezo test strip had lost 7.6% in the 50% patch. (The two 
blacks had
> both faded 15%, but because of the intensity of the light, the 
black would
> absorb more and heat up more.  So, I think the test conditions 
exaggerate
> the relative fading of the dark tones.)
> 
> For most parameters I'm looking at, by 300 hours in my fader the 
rate of
> change has slowed considerably.  So, while these prints may never 
totally
> stabilize, I think at the 300 hour point we can see what the prints 
will
> look like after the prints have "warmed" completely.
> 
> While the Piezo faded 65% more than MIS, neither had really faded 
that
> dramatically.  I continue to agree with the consensus of south-
window
> testers that color shifting is more significant than fading.  I'll 
send the
> scans of the test strips and control strips to Martin to put in the 
files
> section of the forum.  (See Fade-MIS-Pzo-300Hr.jpg)
> 
> I would be curious if the scanned images look like what south-
window testers
> see, and how long it takes for south-window prints to take on this 
color.
> 
> EAM is the champ when it comes to fade resistance among the paper 
I've
> tested.  I don't know what paper was being used below, but the 
alleged 2
> stop fading in 60 days seems extreme.  I would guess there are some 
factors,
> perhaps including display conditions, that we don't know about.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
(snip)

Paul, are your figures % of dmax?  Or did you correct for the log scale?
Just trying to figure out how they correspond to mine changes.

Robert

On 9/12/01 8:53 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Mike,
> 
> You asked:
> 
>> Has anyone else measured the actually loss in density of Piezo prints?
> 
> I ran a comparison fade test in my florescent light tester with MIS
> (standard quads) and Piezo inks.  Both were on Epson Archival Matte, and
> both were in the fader at the same time, so other possible variables were
> kept to a minimum.  After 300 hours the MIS 50% patch had lost 4.6% density.
> The Piezo test strip had lost 7.6% in the 50% patch. (The two blacks had
> both faded 15%, but because of the intensity of the light, the black would
> absorb more and heat up more.  So, I think the test conditions exaggerate
> the relative fading of the dark tones.)
> 
> For most parameters I'm looking at, by 300 hours in my fader the rate of
> change has slowed considerably.  So, while these prints may never totally
> stabilize, I think at the 300 hour point we can see what the prints will
> look like after the prints have "warmed" completely.
> 
> While the Piezo faded 65% more than MIS, neither had really faded that
> dramatically.  I continue to agree with the consensus of south-window
> testers that color shifting is more significant than fading.  I'll send the
> scans of the test strips and control strips to Martin to put in the files
> section of the forum.  (See Fade-MIS-Pzo-300Hr.jpg)
> 
> I would be curious if the scanned images look like what south-window testers
> see, and how long it takes for south-window prints to take on this color.
> 
> EAM is the champ when it comes to fade resistance among the paper I've
> tested.  I don't know what paper was being used below, but the alleged 2
> stop fading in 60 days seems extreme.  I would guess there are some factors,
> perhaps including display conditions, that we don't know about.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> ______________________________________________
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael J. Kravit [mailto:kravit@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 5:16 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo - Loss of Density
> 
> 
> Last eveing I was speaking with another photographer by telepone. He
> told me that in California Huntington Witheral is ready to give up on
> Piezo because his display prints are losing 2 stops of density after
> just 60 days on display.
> 
> Supposedly he has spoken with Jon Cone and Cone told him it was his
> paper. So he has tried numerous papers and has not been able to keep
> the prints from losing density (fading).
> 
> Has anyone else measured the actualy loss in density of Piezo prints?
> 
> MIke
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert wrote:

>Paul, are your figures % of dmax?  Or did you correct for the log scale?
>Just trying to figure out how they correspond to mine changes.

I use a scanner to measure the differences, scanning the test strip along
with the control strip.  I then use the Photoshop Histogram tool to measure
luminance and RGB values.  When I look at fading, all I'm doing is taking
the percentage of fade (lightening) of the selected area (for example the
50% patch of the 21-step test file print) relative to the starting
luminance/brightness of the particular patch.

Paul


On 9/12/01 8:53 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Mike,
>
> You asked:
>
>> Has anyone else measured the actually loss in density of Piezo prints?
>
> I ran a comparison fade test in my florescent light tester with MIS
> (standard quads) and Piezo inks.  Both were on Epson Archival Matte, and
> both were in the fader at the same time, so other possible variables were
> kept to a minimum.  After 300 hours the MIS 50% patch had lost 4.6%
density.
> The Piezo test strip had lost 7.6% in the 50% patch. (The two blacks had
> both faded 15%, but because of the intensity of the light, the black would
> absorb more and heat up more.  So, I think the test conditions exaggerate
> the relative fading of the dark tones.)
>
> For most parameters I'm looking at, by 300 hours in my fader the rate of
> change has slowed considerably.  So, while these prints may never totally
> stabilize, I think at the 300 hour point we can see what the prints will
> look like after the prints have "warmed" completely.
>
> While the Piezo faded 65% more than MIS, neither had really faded that
> dramatically.  I continue to agree with the consensus of south-window
> testers that color shifting is more significant than fading.  I'll send
the
> scans of the test strips and control strips to Martin to put in the files
> section of the forum.  (See Fade-MIS-Pzo-300Hr.jpg)
>
> I would be curious if the scanned images look like what south-window
testers
> see, and how long it takes for south-window prints to take on this color.
>
> EAM is the champ when it comes to fade resistance among the paper I've
> tested.  I don't know what paper was being used below, but the alleged 2
> stop fading in 60 days seems extreme.  I would guess there are some
factors,

> perhaps including display conditions, that we don't know about.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
> ______________________________________________
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael J. Kravit [mailto:kravit@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 5:16 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo - Loss of Density
>
>
> Last eveing I was speaking with another photographer by telepone. He
> told me that in California Huntington Witheral is ready to give up on
> Piezo because his display prints are losing 2 stops of density after
> just 60 days on display.
>
> Supposedly he has spoken with Jon Cone and Cone told him it was his
> paper. So he has tried numerous papers and has not been able to keep
> the prints from losing density (fading).
>
> Has anyone else measured the actualy loss in density of Piezo prints?
>
> MIke

Hi,

I put a higher resolution version of Paul's scan of the Piezo vs. MIS 
fade test in the "Files" section in the "Message Related Files" 
folder. You can get a better look at the details on this one.

Martin

(snip)

Got it.  Antonis and I are using his spectrophotometer to read the 21 step
wedges.  I have previously reported the dmax for the 100% black.  We have
full spectrum information but haven't figured out how best to communicate
the information.  Just looked at the your scan that martin posted.  Do you
have a fade of a more neutral MIS sample.  The one that I see is very warm
to even the piezo.  My guess is that as you tone the MIS blue that you will
bet much poorer fade results...but that is just a guess.

Robert

On 9/12/01 6:09 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Robert wrote:
> 
>> Paul, are your figures % of dmax?  Or did you correct for the log scale?
>> Just trying to figure out how they correspond to mine changes.
> 
> I use a scanner to measure the differences, scanning the test strip along
> with the control strip.  I then use the Photoshop Histogram tool to measure
> luminance and RGB values.  When I look at fading, all I'm doing is taking
> the percentage of fade (lightening) of the selected area (for example the
> 50% patch of the 21-step test file print) relative to the starting
> luminance/brightness of the particular patch.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> On 9/12/01 8:53 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
> 
>> Mike,
>> 
>> You asked:
>> 
>>> Has anyone else measured the actually loss in density of Piezo prints?
>> 
>> I ran a comparison fade test in my florescent light tester with MIS
>> (standard quads) and Piezo inks.  Both were on Epson Archival Matte, and
>> both were in the fader at the same time, so other possible variables were
>> kept to a minimum.  After 300 hours the MIS 50% patch had lost 4.6%
> density.
>> The Piezo test strip had lost 7.6% in the 50% patch. (The two blacks had
>> both faded 15%, but because of the intensity of the light, the black would
>> absorb more and heat up more.  So, I think the test conditions exaggerate
>> the relative fading of the dark tones.)
>> 
>> For most parameters I'm looking at, by 300 hours in my fader the rate of
>> change has slowed considerably.  So, while these prints may never totally
>> stabilize, I think at the 300 hour point we can see what the prints will
>> look like after the prints have "warmed" completely.
>> 
>> While the Piezo faded 65% more than MIS, neither had really faded that
>> dramatically.  I continue to agree with the consensus of south-window
>> testers that color shifting is more significant than fading.  I'll send
> the
>> scans of the test strips and control strips to Martin to put in the files
>> section of the forum.  (See Fade-MIS-Pzo-300Hr.jpg)
>> 
>> I would be curious if the scanned images look like what south-window
> testers
>> see, and how long it takes for south-window prints to take on this color.
>> 
>> EAM is the champ when it comes to fade resistance among the paper I've
>> tested.  I don't know what paper was being used below, but the alleged 2
>> stop fading in 60 days seems extreme.  I would guess there are some
> factors,
>> perhaps including display conditions, that we don't know about.
>> 
>> Paul
>> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>> 
>> ______________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael J. Kravit [mailto:kravit@...]
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 5:16 AM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo - Loss of Density
>> 
>> 
>> Last eveing I was speaking with another photographer by telepone. He
>> told me that in California Huntington Witheral is ready to give up on
>> Piezo because his display prints are losing 2 stops of density after
>> just 60 days on display.
>> 
>> Supposedly he has spoken with Jon Cone and Cone told him it was his
>> paper. So he has tried numerous papers and has not been able to keep
>> the prints from losing density (fading).
>> 
>> Has anyone else measured the actualy loss in density of Piezo prints?
>> 
>> MIke
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert,

Are you thinking the blue components will be more susceptible to UV 
fading?

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Got it.  Antonis and I are using his spectrophotometer to read the 
21 step
> wedges.  I have previously reported the dmax for the 100% black.  
We have
> full spectrum information but haven't figured out how best to 
communicate
> the information.  Just looked at the your scan that martin posted.  
Do you
> have a fade of a more neutral MIS sample.  The one that I see is 
very warm
> to even the piezo.  My guess is that as you tone the MIS blue that 
you will
> bet much poorer fade results...but that is just a guess.
> 
> Robert
> 
(snip)

I'd me amazed if they weren't.  The beauty of piezo (or straight MIS) is
that all the ink is pure black. No two pigments have the same fading
properties, so it would be amazing in blue faded at the same rate as black.
Most likely, it will fade faster because carbon black is the most stable
pigment known.  If this happens quickly it could be a major problem for the
MIS VM inkset for archival applications.  I'm not sure how Cone is achieving
the Selenium Toned set...but the problem could be the same.

Robert

On 9/13/01 12:00 PM, "mwesley250@..." <mwesley250@...>
wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> Are you thinking the blue components will be more susceptible to UV
> fading?
> 
> Martin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>> Got it.  Antonis and I are using his spectrophotometer to read the
> 21 step
>> wedges.  I have previously reported the dmax for the 100% black.
> We have
>> full spectrum information but haven't figured out how best to
> communicate
>> the information.  Just looked at the your scan that martin posted.
> Do you
>> have a fade of a more neutral MIS sample.  The one that I see is
> very warm
>> to even the piezo.  My guess is that as you tone the MIS blue that
> you will
>> bet much poorer fade results...but that is just a guess.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
> (snip)
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert,

From what I see, Piezo has green dye or pigment in at least the 
Magenta position and Jon Cone has said that there are dye components 
in Piezo. I really wouldn't want to pick one over the other for 
archival life.

Paul reported earlier that in his UV fade tester the Piezo warm 
shifted more quickly than MIS VM but that they both eventually reach 
very similar points. Not a plus for either of them but they seem to 
be the best we have to work with at the moment.

At this point I really don't know what to expect over the long, long 
haul. I think it will be display and storage dependent. The Piezo or 
MIS prints that last the test of time are likely to be the ones that 
spend less time exposed to intense UV light sources. Of course a coat 
of quality varnish would probaly help.;-)

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison" 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> I'd me amazed if they weren't.  The beauty of piezo (or straight 
MIS) is
> that all the ink is pure black. No two pigments have the same fading
> properties, so it would be amazing in blue faded at the same rate 
as black.
> Most likely, it will fade faster because carbon black is the most 
stable
> pigment known.  If this happens quickly it could be a major problem 
for the
> MIS VM inkset for archival applications.  I'm not sure how Cone is 
achieving
> the Selenium Toned set...but the problem could be the same.
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 9/13/01 12:00 PM, "mwesley250@e..." <mwesley250@e...>
> wrote:
> 
> > Robert,
> > 
> > Are you thinking the blue components will be more susceptible to 
UV
> > fading?
> > 
> > Martin
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> > <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> >> Got it.  Antonis and I are using his spectrophotometer to read 
the
> > 21 step
> >> wedges.  I have previously reported the dmax for the 100% black.
> > We have
> >> full spectrum information but haven't figured out how best to
> > communicate
> >> the information.  Just looked at the your scan that martin 
posted.
> > Do you
> >> have a fade of a more neutral MIS sample.  The one that I see is
> > very warm
> >> to even the piezo.  My guess is that as you tone the MIS blue 
that
> > you will
> >> bet much poorer fade results...but that is just a guess.
> >> 
> >> Robert
> >> 
> > (snip)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> > 
> > 
> 
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@p...
> 
> 310-397-2704
> 
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert wrote:

>... Just looked at the your scan that martin posted.  Do you
>have a fade of a more neutral MIS sample.  The one that I see is very warm
>to even the piezo.

I may not have a test that is a direct comparison between Piezo and the MIS
VM inkset.  I try not to compare the results of different trials, because
the variables may have been different.  While I think the light source is
relatively constant, the humidity, temperature and other possible variables
can differ.  So, if I'm comparing papers, for example, I'll always have an
EAM control in the fader with the same ink.  Then I try to state the results
as a comparison with EAM.  (I've just finished a Legions PM test to 300
hours, for example.  I'll report those results soon.)

The MIS inks in the posted MIS-Piezo test were the standard quads, and they
are warmer than Piezo quads.  I was trying to see how they compared to Piezo
before I bothered to convert the variable-tone approach to the MIS pigs.  I
already had it running just fine with Piezo and was not about to change just
to save a buck if the inks faded badly.

> My guess is that as you tone the MIS blue that you will
>bet much poorer fade results...but that is just a guess.

Actually, what both Jerry in his south-window testing and I with my
florescent light fader seem to be seeing is that the colder the print, the
better it does.  The MIS "blue" is composed of cyan and magenta pigments --
no dyes.  The MIS cyan pigment looks to be amazingly stable.  (See the RIT
test results at
http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/rit.html )

Paul

__________________________

Robert

On 9/12/01 6:09 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Robert wrote:
>
>> Paul, are your figures % of dmax?  Or did you correct for the log scale?
>> Just trying to figure out how they correspond to mine changes.
>
> I use a scanner to measure the differences, scanning the test strip along
> with the control strip.  I then use the Photoshop Histogram tool to
measure
> luminance and RGB values.  When I look at fading, all I'm doing is taking
> the percentage of fade (lightening) of the selected area (for example the
> 50% patch of the 21-step test file print) relative to the starting
> luminance/brightness of the particular patch.
>
> Paul
>
>
> On 9/12/01 8:53 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> You asked:
>>
>>> Has anyone else measured the actually loss in density of Piezo prints?
>>
>> I ran a comparison fade test in my florescent light tester with MIS
>> (standard quads) and Piezo inks.  Both were on Epson Archival Matte, and
>> both were in the fader at the same time, so other possible variables were
>> kept to a minimum.  After 300 hours the MIS 50% patch had lost 4.6%
> density.
>> The Piezo test strip had lost 7.6% in the 50% patch. (The two blacks had
>> both faded 15%, but because of the intensity of the light, the black
would
>> absorb more and heat up more.  So, I think the test conditions exaggerate
>> the relative fading of the dark tones.)
>>
>> For most parameters I'm looking at, by 300 hours in my fader the rate of
>> change has slowed considerably.  So, while these prints may never totally
>> stabilize, I think at the 300 hour point we can see what the prints will
>> look like after the prints have "warmed" completely.
>>
>> While the Piezo faded 65% more than MIS, neither had really faded that
>> dramatically.  I continue to agree with the consensus of south-window
>> testers that color shifting is more significant than fading.  I'll send
> the
>> scans of the test strips and control strips to Martin to put in the files
>> section of the forum.  (See Fade-MIS-Pzo-300Hr.jpg)
>>
>> I would be curious if the scanned images look like what south-window
> testers
>> see, and how long it takes for south-window prints to take on this color.
>>
>> EAM is the champ when it comes to fade resistance among the paper I've
>> tested.  I don't know what paper was being used below, but the alleged 2
>> stop fading in 60 days seems extreme.  I would guess there are some
> factors,
>> perhaps including display conditions, that we don't know about.
>>
>> Paul
>> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael J. Kravit [mailto:kravit@...]
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 5:16 AM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo - Loss of Density
>>
>>
>> Last eveing I was speaking with another photographer by telepone. He
>> told me that in California Huntington Witheral is ready to give up on
>> Piezo because his display prints are losing 2 stops of density after
>> just 60 days on display.
>>
>> Supposedly he has spoken with Jon Cone and Cone told him it was his
>> paper. So he has tried numerous papers and has not been able to keep
>> the prints from losing density (fading).
>>
>> Has anyone else measured the actualy loss in density of Piezo prints?
>>
>> MIke
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

----------------------
Robert Morrison

Robert wrote:

>...  The beauty of Piezo (or straight MIS) is
>that all the ink is pure black. ...

Actually, I think one of the problems with Piezo is that there is green-blue
dye in it.  I think Cone should have used pigments to color the inkset.

Also, all of the pigments are, I'm told, carbon at their core, but the
action is with the colorant that coats the carbon.  Even the black ink has a
black colorant around the carbon because the raw carbon is a warm brown, not
a deep black.

So, among black pigments, I suspect there is a difference in fading
depending, in part, on the quality of the black colorant that is used.  Of
the blacks I've tested, the Piezo and MIS VM blacks appear to be the same
and the best.  However, in some tests I do see significant fading & warming
even with these blacks.  I think they are susceptible to heat and
humidity -- perhaps in combination.

Paul

> From what I see, Piezo has green dye or pigment in at least the
> Magenta position and Jon Cone has said that there are dye components
> in Piezo. I really wouldn't want to pick one over the other for
> archival life.

Jon has stated time and time again that there is no dye in the piezoBW
product as it stands.  There are numerous posts to this effect. As to
whether the current product is toned with color pigment...I believe that he
has been rather silent...but the final color looks like pure carbon black to
me....pure carbon black pigment is a warm black.

> Paul reported earlier that in his UV fade tester the Piezo warm
> shifted more quickly than MIS VM but that they both eventually reach
> very similar points. Not a plus for either of them but they seem to
> be the best we have to work with at the moment.

The scanned fade that paul posted looks to me like it has no blue it it...if
anything if is warm to piezo.  Forgive me if I'm missing something else.  I
would love to see a fade of a MIS VM, blue gray...or even one that people
consider to be neutral.
> 
> At this point I really don't know what to expect over the long, long
> haul. I think it will be display and storage dependent. The Piezo or
> MIS prints that last the test of time are likely to be the ones that
> spend less time exposed to intense UV light sources. Of course a coat
> of quality varnish would probaly help.;-)

Its a simple fact that carbon black is the most stable pigment.  Which ever
formulation has less of anything else is most likely to suffer the least
long term fading and color shift.  In the end pigments will likely not be
very effected by paper coatings and the vehicle in which it is applied.  Its
likely that initial color shifts to the extent that they occur are the
result of the vehicle disintegrating or even evaporating completely.  That's
probably why there is an initial shift and then things seem to be more
stable.  Its obvious that the less the light the better, but that doesn't
speak to the scientific reasons why one would expect one ink system to fade
more or less.  If they are both carbon black of similar particle size they
should fade the same.  As any color toner (dye or pigment) is added they
will be more likely to fade and color shift. This may not happen
immediately, but it is certain to occur in the long run...that's well
established science. Its likely that the blue pigment is pthalocyanine
based.  That's a relatively good pigment for lightfastness, but it is no
match for carbon black...not by a long shot. If someone had access to a IR
or UV spectrophotometer that can handle solutions it would be easy work to
figure out how the various inks are toned...if at all.  It would also be
interesting to see Paul do a fade with varying levels of blue toner.

Robert
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison"
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>> I'd me amazed if they weren't.  The beauty of piezo (or straight
> MIS) is
>> that all the ink is pure black. No two pigments have the same fading
>> properties, so it would be amazing in blue faded at the same rate
> as black.
>> Most likely, it will fade faster because carbon black is the most
> stable
>> pigment known.  If this happens quickly it could be a major problem
> for the
>> MIS VM inkset for archival applications.  I'm not sure how Cone is
> achieving
>> the Selenium Toned set...but the problem could be the same.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> On 9/13/01 12:00 PM, "mwesley250@e..." <mwesley250@e...>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Robert,
>>> 
>>> Are you thinking the blue components will be more susceptible to
> UV
>>> fading?
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
>>> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>>>> Got it.  Antonis and I are using his spectrophotometer to read
> the
>>> 21 step
>>>> wedges.  I have previously reported the dmax for the 100% black.
>>> We have
>>>> full spectrum information but haven't figured out how best to
>>> communicate
>>>> the information.  Just looked at the your scan that martin
> posted.
>>> Do you
>>>> have a fade of a more neutral MIS sample.  The one that I see is
>>> very warm
>>>> to even the piezo.  My guess is that as you tone the MIS blue
> that
>>> you will
>>>> bet much poorer fade results...but that is just a guess.
>>>> 
>>>> Robert
>>>> 
>>> (snip)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------
>> Robert Morrison
>> rmorrison@p...
>> 
>> 310-397-2704
>> 
>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

On 9/13/01 5:00 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Actually, what both Jerry in his south-window testing and I with my
> florescent light fader seem to be seeing is that the colder the print, the
> better it does.  The MIS "blue" is composed of cyan and magenta pigments --
> no dyes.  The MIS cyan pigment looks to be amazingly stable.  (See the RIT
> test results at
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/rit.html )

Carbon black is much more light stable than any color pigment on the market.
The RIT results are mystifying unless the black ink has another color toner
in it that is not carbon black.  If this is the case they should get rid of
it and use the pthalo pigment (cyan)...which looks good.  The fact that the
"blue" toner is composed of two different pigments with dramatically
different fading profiles should be troubling to you.  Look at the huge
differential even in the "5-10" year range.  In practice these "year"
ratings are actually much shorter.  Almost no one takes into account the
environmental factors...they simply take the fad-o-meter light hours and
some type of conversion for likely exposure (usually very little).  Everyone
in the business knows that this doesn't cut it.  Prints toned with the MIS
"blue" will become progressively more blue as the magenta diminishes faster.
You're not likely to see this in 300 hours under a fluorescent light.

Robert

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

On 9/13/01 5:00 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Actually, I think one of the problems with Piezo is that there is green-blue
> dye in it.

I thought that Jon has repeatedly denied this.  But I'm uncertain now.  He
has said several times that the color piezo product is 100% pigment, no dye,
but honestly, I don't know whether he has said this about the BW product. He
has certainly emphasized that they didn't boost black strength with dye, but
Its difficult to tell from his posts whether there is actually dye present.
Once again, it would be easy to tell with a solution spectrophotometer.

Robert
----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

I believe that he _has_ stated the BW inks have a small additional dye
component, and as you say, it is the color inks that are 100% pigment.

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
> Sent: 14 September 2001 08:08
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezo - Loss of Density
>
>
> On 9/13/01 5:00 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> > Actually, I think one of the problems with Piezo is that there
> is green-blue
> > dye in it.
>
> I thought that Jon has repeatedly denied this.  But I'm uncertain now.  He
> has said several times that the color piezo product is 100%
> pigment, no dye,
> but honestly, I don't know whether he has said this about the BW
> product.

I believe you are thinking about color piezo having no dye.

Here is what Jon Cone said about piezoBW way back on Tue Nov 28, 2000;

"Piezography*BW inks use carbon black as their base pigment with minute
                      amounts of dye to arrive at the hue we have 
chosen. They are very sturdy
                      subject to the paper they are printed on."

It has been proposed the hint of green that may appear at first or if 
the print gets water damaged is the natural color of the medium used to 
sustain the pigment in the solution without settling. Not really sure 
about that though, maybe they had to add green or blue because carbon 
is naturally too warm, who knows,

-mikeH


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison <
rmorrison@p...> wrote:

> > From what I see, Piezo has green dye or pigment in at least the
> > Magenta position and Jon Cone has said that there are dye components
> > in Piezo. I really wouldn't want to pick one over the other for
> > archival life.
> 
> Jon has stated time and time again that there is no dye in the piezoBW
> product as it stands.  There are numerous posts to this effect. As to
> whether the current product is toned with color pigment...I believe that he
> has been rather silent...but the final color looks like pure carbon black to
> me....pure carbon black pigment is a warm black.
> 
> > Paul reported earlier that in his UV fade tester the Piezo warm
> > shifted more quickly than MIS VM but that they both eventually reach
> > very similar points. Not a plus for either of them but they seem to
> > be the best we have to work with at the moment.
> 
> The scanned fade that paul posted looks to me like it has no blue it it...if
> anything if is warm to piezo.  Forgive me if I'm missing something else.  I
> would love to see a fade of a MIS VM, blue gray...or even one that people
> consider to be neutral.
> > 
> > At this point I really don't know what to expect over the long, long
> > haul. I think it will be display and storage dependent. The Piezo or
> > MIS prints that last the test of time are likely to be the ones that
> > spend less time exposed to intense UV light sources. Of course a coat
> > of quality varnish would probaly help.;-)
> 
> Its a simple fact that carbon black is the most stable pigment.  Which ever
> formulation has less of anything else is most likely to suffer the least
> long term fading and color shift.  In the end pigments will likely not be
> very effected by paper coatings and the vehicle in which it is applied.  Its
> likely that initial color shifts to the extent that they occur are the
> result of the vehicle disintegrating or even evaporating completely.  That's
> probably why there is an initial shift and then things seem to be more
> stable.  Its obvious that the less the light the better, but that doesn't
> speak to the scientific reasons why one would expect one ink system to fade
> more or less.  If they are both carbon black of similar particle size they
> should fade the same.  As any color toner (dye or pigment) is added they
> will be more likely to fade and color shift. This may not happen
> immediately, but it is certain to occur in the long run...that's well
> established science. Its likely that the blue pigment is pthalocyanine
> based.  That's a relatively good pigment for lightfastness, but it is no
> match for carbon black...not by a long shot. If someone had access to a IR
> or UV spectrophotometer that can handle solutions it would be easy work to
> figure out how the various inks are toned...if at all.  It would also be
> interesting to see Paul do a fade with varying levels of blue toner.
> 
> Robert
> > 
> > Martin
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison"
> > <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> >> I'd me amazed if they weren't.  The beauty of piezo (or straight
> > MIS) is
> >> that all the ink is pure black. No two pigments have the same fading
> >> properties, so it would be amazing in blue faded at the same rate
> > as black.
> >> Most likely, it will fade faster because carbon black is the most
> > stable
> >> pigment known.  If this happens quickly it could be a major problem
> > for the
> >> MIS VM inkset for archival applications.  I'm not sure how Cone is
> > achieving
> >> the Selenium Toned set...but the problem could be the same.
> >> 
> >> Robert
> >> 
> >> On 9/13/01 12:00 PM, "mwesley250@e..." <mwesley250@e...>
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Robert,
> >>> 
> >>> Are you thinking the blue components will be more susceptible to
> > UV
> >>> fading?
> >>> 
> >>> Martin
> >>> 
> >>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> >>> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> >>>> Got it.  Antonis and I are using his spectrophotometer to read
> > the
> >>> 21 step
> >>>> wedges.  I have previously reported the dmax for the 100% black.
> >>> We have
> >>>> full spectrum information but haven't figured out how best to
> >>> communicate
> >>>> the information.  Just looked at the your scan that martin
> > posted.
> >>> Do you
> >>>> have a fade of a more neutral MIS sample.  The one that I see is
> >>> very warm
> >>>> to even the piezo.  My guess is that as you tone the MIS blue
> > that
> >>> you will
> >>>> bet much poorer fade results...but that is just a guess.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Robert
> >>>> 
> >>> (snip)
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> > Polls and other
> >>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>> 
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> ----------------------
> >> Robert Morrison
> >> rmorrison@p...
> >> 
> >> 310-397-2704
> >> 
> >> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> >> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> > 
> 
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@p...
> 
> 310-397-2704
> 
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066

on 9/14/01 2:38 AM, Robert Morrison wrote:

> Jon has stated time and time again that there is no dye in the piezoBW
> product as it stands.  There are numerous posts to this effect. As to
> whether the current product is toned with color pigment...I believe that he
> has been rather silent...but the final color looks like pure carbon black to
> me....pure carbon black pigment is a warm black.

This was Jon's "extended" answer to the question on the Piezo list:

The color inks are 100% pigment.

PiezoBW inks: The black mass is carbon black and there is a trace amount of
dye to balance the neutral "tone".

The upcoming Selenium Quad inks (SE) will be 100% pigment; a new generation
of pigment is being used which has not previously been used as an inkjet
ink.


We have thought about coming out with a more traditional pigmented BW ink
which would incorporate more dye into the mix; supplied to those who wish to
print on glossy materials. But longevity of such an ink would be compromised
in favor of compatibility with more traditional looking photo gloss
materials. Our current BW ink, being a very heavy and concentrated pigment
base is just too dense for gloss materials (and we have had the best minds
in paper development working on alternative gloss technology to no avail...)


Pros and Cons:

Pros of a dye in a pigmented ink, is tinting strength as it reflects back
less white light than pigment - it appears darker or more saturated to the
eye. It allows for customization of a monochromatic ink. If heavy in
presence will allow printing on gloss coatings and allow for greatest paper
compatibility.

Cons of a dye in a pigmented ink:  metamerism, reactions to paper coatings
disproportionate to their presence (i.e the chemical compound of the dye
molecule and the coating mix produce a reaction - this can occur whether
lots of dye or trace dye.)


-- 
Jon Cone

Thanks, I think you've got this one.  I was confused by info on the color
list.  Maybe eventually Cone will which for using pigments to tone.  Its
almost certain that initial color shifts would be the result of dye burning
off.  Its a shame they put it in in the first place...it only makes long
tern calibration more difficult...this also seems to be the case for
MIS...given the fading profile that RIT has published.

Robert

On 9/14/01 5:29 AM, "mh@..." <mh@...> wrote:

> I believe you are thinking about color piezo having no dye.
> 
> Here is what Jon Cone said about piezoBW way back on Tue Nov 28, 2000;
> 
> "Piezography*BW inks use carbon black as their base pigment with minute
>                     amounts of dye to arrive at the hue we have
> chosen. They are very sturdy
>                     subject to the paper they are printed on."
> 
> It has been proposed the hint of green that may appear at first or if
> the print gets water damaged is the natural color of the medium used to
> sustain the pigment in the solution without settling. Not really sure
> about that though, maybe they had to add green or blue because carbon
> is naturally too warm, who knows,
> 
> -mikeH
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison <
> rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>>> From what I see, Piezo has green dye or pigment in at least the
>>> Magenta position and Jon Cone has said that there are dye components
>>> in Piezo. I really wouldn't want to pick one over the other for
>>> archival life.
>> 
>> Jon has stated time and time again that there is no dye in the piezoBW
>> product as it stands.  There are numerous posts to this effect. As to
>> whether the current product is toned with color pigment...I believe that he
>> has been rather silent...but the final color looks like pure carbon black to
>> me....pure carbon black pigment is a warm black.
>> 
>>> Paul reported earlier that in his UV fade tester the Piezo warm
>>> shifted more quickly than MIS VM but that they both eventually reach
>>> very similar points. Not a plus for either of them but they seem to
>>> be the best we have to work with at the moment.
>> 
>> The scanned fade that paul posted looks to me like it has no blue it it...if
>> anything if is warm to piezo.  Forgive me if I'm missing something else.  I
>> would love to see a fade of a MIS VM, blue gray...or even one that people
>> consider to be neutral.
>>> 
>>> At this point I really don't know what to expect over the long, long
>>> haul. I think it will be display and storage dependent. The Piezo or
>>> MIS prints that last the test of time are likely to be the ones that
>>> spend less time exposed to intense UV light sources. Of course a coat
>>> of quality varnish would probaly help.;-)
>> 
>> Its a simple fact that carbon black is the most stable pigment.  Which ever
>> formulation has less of anything else is most likely to suffer the least
>> long term fading and color shift.  In the end pigments will likely not be
>> very effected by paper coatings and the vehicle in which it is applied.  Its
>> likely that initial color shifts to the extent that they occur are the
>> result of the vehicle disintegrating or even evaporating completely.  That's
>> probably why there is an initial shift and then things seem to be more
>> stable.  Its obvious that the less the light the better, but that doesn't
>> speak to the scientific reasons why one would expect one ink system to fade
>> more or less.  If they are both carbon black of similar particle size they
>> should fade the same.  As any color toner (dye or pigment) is added they
>> will be more likely to fade and color shift. This may not happen
>> immediately, but it is certain to occur in the long run...that's well
>> established science. Its likely that the blue pigment is pthalocyanine
>> based.  That's a relatively good pigment for lightfastness, but it is no
>> match for carbon black...not by a long shot. If someone had access to a IR
>> or UV spectrophotometer that can handle solutions it would be easy work to
>> figure out how the various inks are toned...if at all.  It would also be
>> interesting to see Paul do a fade with varying levels of blue toner.
>> 
>> Robert
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison"
>>> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>>>> I'd me amazed if they weren't.  The beauty of piezo (or straight
>>> MIS) is
>>>> that all the ink is pure black. No two pigments have the same fading
>>>> properties, so it would be amazing in blue faded at the same rate
>>> as black.
>>>> Most likely, it will fade faster because carbon black is the most
>>> stable
>>>> pigment known.  If this happens quickly it could be a major problem
>>> for the
>>>> MIS VM inkset for archival applications.  I'm not sure how Cone is
>>> achieving
>>>> the Selenium Toned set...but the problem could be the same.
>>>> 
>>>> Robert
>>>> 
>>>> On 9/13/01 12:00 PM, "mwesley250@e..." <mwesley250@e...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Robert,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Are you thinking the blue components will be more susceptible to
>>> UV
>>>>> fading?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Martin
>>>>> 
>>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
>>>>> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>>>>>> Got it.  Antonis and I are using his spectrophotometer to read
>>> the
>>>>> 21 step
>>>>>> wedges.  I have previously reported the dmax for the 100% black.
>>>>> We have
>>>>>> full spectrum information but haven't figured out how best to
>>>>> communicate
>>>>>> the information.  Just looked at the your scan that martin
>>> posted.
>>>>> Do you
>>>>>> have a fade of a more neutral MIS sample.  The one that I see is
>>>>> very warm
>>>>>> to even the piezo.  My guess is that as you tone the MIS blue
>>> that
>>>>> you will
>>>>>> bet much poorer fade results...but that is just a guess.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>> 
>>>>> (snip)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
>>> Polls and other
>>>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----------------------
>>>> Robert Morrison
>>>> rmorrison@p...
>>>> 
>>>> 310-397-2704
>>>> 
>>>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>>>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>> other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------
>> Robert Morrison
>> rmorrison@p...
>> 
>> 310-397-2704
>> 
>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Much thanks for the clarification and context.  Martin, could you put this
one in the archives for future reference.  Sorry about any confusion that I
may have generated.  Given this information I'm really looking forward to
seeing the new Piezo ink set.  From what I can gather it will be an
improvement with respect to fading to both the current Piezo and MIS VM
products.  It seems that it would be easy for Paul or others who are
interested in using curves, to use pure pigment blacks (the new Piezo
Selenium Inks) and then tone by using either color piezo or MIS color inks
that we are sure are 100% pigment and contain no dye.  Dye is the enemy
here, folks, there are no commmercially available dyes that are nearly as
inert or lightfast as pure pigments.

Robert


RobertOn 9/14/01 8:27 AM, "Todd Flashner" <tflash@...> wrote:

> on 9/14/01 2:38 AM, Robert Morrison wrote:
> 
>> Jon has stated time and time again that there is no dye in the piezoBW
>> product as it stands.  There are numerous posts to this effect. As to
>> whether the current product is toned with color pigment...I believe that he
>> has been rather silent...but the final color looks like pure carbon black to
>> me....pure carbon black pigment is a warm black.
> 
> This was Jon's "extended" answer to the question on the Piezo list:
> 
> The color inks are 100% pigment.
> 
> PiezoBW inks: The black mass is carbon black and there is a trace amount of
> dye to balance the neutral "tone".
> 
> The upcoming Selenium Quad inks (SE) will be 100% pigment; a new generation
> of pigment is being used which has not previously been used as an inkjet
> ink.
> 
> 
> We have thought about coming out with a more traditional pigmented BW ink
> which would incorporate more dye into the mix; supplied to those who wish to
> print on glossy materials. But longevity of such an ink would be compromised
> in favor of compatibility with more traditional looking photo gloss
> materials. Our current BW ink, being a very heavy and concentrated pigment
> base is just too dense for gloss materials (and we have had the best minds
> in paper development working on alternative gloss technology to no avail...)
> 
> 
> Pros and Cons:
> 
> Pros of a dye in a pigmented ink, is tinting strength as it reflects back
> less white light than pigment - it appears darker or more saturated to the
> eye. It allows for customization of a monochromatic ink. If heavy in
> presence will allow printing on gloss coatings and allow for greatest paper
> compatibility.
> 
> Cons of a dye in a pigmented ink:  metamerism, reactions to paper coatings
> disproportionate to their presence (i.e the chemical compound of the dye
> molecule and the coating mix produce a reaction - this can occur whether
> lots of dye or trace dye.)
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Much thanks for the clarification and context.  Martin, could you 
put this
> one in the archives for future reference.

Robert,

Done.

Martin

(snip)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison <
rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Thanks, I think you've got this one.  I was confused by info on the color
> list.  Maybe eventually Cone will which for using pigments to tone.  Its
> almost certain that initial color shifts would be the result of dye burning
> off.  Its a shame they put it in in the first place...it only makes long
> tern calibration more difficult...this also seems to be the case for
> MIS...given the fading profile that RIT has published.
> 
> Robert
> 


I don't think this is the case. Even the more volatile dyes don't "burn 
off" in a matter of days.

-mikeH

I've never seen the green cast that some talk about.  What I do notice is
that there is a warming shift over 6 weeks in the sun...this is consistent
with a dye hypothesis.  Its possible that green cast issues may be vehicle
as opposed to dye related.

Robert

On 9/15/01 10:17 PM, "mh@..." <mh@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison <
> rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>> Thanks, I think you've got this one.  I was confused by info on the color
>> list.  Maybe eventually Cone will which for using pigments to tone.  Its
>> almost certain that initial color shifts would be the result of dye burning
>> off.  Its a shame they put it in in the first place...it only makes long
>> tern calibration more difficult...this also seems to be the case for
>> MIS...given the fading profile that RIT has published.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
> 
> 
> I don't think this is the case. Even the more volatile dyes don't "burn
> off" in a matter of days.
> 
> -mikeH
> 
> 
> 
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----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066