Digital BW, The Print

Paul,

Thanks for the thorough post, as usual.  So from your experience the black
ink is the only problem with the quads on semi-gloss/luster finish papers?
If that's true one could use the piezotones with the Epson Archival Black
ink and be ok on Epson luster, etc.?  This would be a fantastic option for
desktop printers...almost as convenient as the 2200.  You could then use
Cone's Museum black or the Ultrachrome matte black on matte papers for
better matte paper dmax. I've worked for sometime with a CIS for grays and
then using a single cart for the black in the 1280...its easy to flip
between blacks that way.  What's even better...with the new Inkjet Control
Software I could simply load the Epson Archival Black into one channel and
Piezotone Museum Black into another channel and call them up at will...this
would certainly be a significant move forward!

Robert

On 1/17/03 3:05 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> James,
> 
>> ...about to switch inks from the original Piezo/Sundance.
>> .. replacing them with either Piezotones, or a blend of
>> MIS FS-N (80%) & FS (20%) inks.
> 
>> ...ink/print permanence
> 
> PiezoTone midtones are more lightfast than the FS and FS-N, although the FS
> are better than the old PiezoBW/Sundance.
> 
>> ... DSS syndrome
> 
> This is not a problem with either inkset as far as I know.
> 
>> I have read Jon Cone's published accelerated-aging tests of
>> Piezotone inks in comparison with MIS FS inks, and his claims
>> of under 2% fading of Piezotone, vs. a 17% fading, accompanied
>> by significant color shift, for FS inks.
> 
> The tests appear to be valid.  From what I can tell, I think that the FS
> inks do have a bit of dye in them.  This burns off quickly at first.  With
> the FS, this causes both some fade and substantial warming.  The FS-N fades
> just like the FS, but it does not warm.  So, visually, the FS-N would look
> much better in these comparison tests.
> 
> Note that once the small amount of dye burns off, the remainder and bulk of
> the FS inkset is pigment, which will be much more stable than the initial
> warming/fading period might suggest.  That is, one cannot extrapolate the
> initial dye burn-off to the long-term relative fade performance.  The fade
> rate is not linear, it slows substantially with the FS inks.
> 
> (I'm now assuming the black FS-K from which the FS inks are mixed does have
> some small amount of dye in it.  That is simply the best explanation for the
> performance of the FS midtones.  Neither I nor, from what I'm told, MIS has
> information from the manufacturer of the black ink about the dye content.)
> 
>> ... FS-N is color/tone stable.
> 
> Yes.  It does fade at the same rate as the FS inks, however.  If you mix FS
> and FS-N, you will get some warming due to the FS inks.
> 
> (Comparison of different fade tests is apples and oranges.  So, I'm avoiding
> some of the numbers that have been mentioned.)
> 
>> ...I'd like your current thoughts on this matter of fade and
>> color/tone stability of FS-N ink. ...
> 
> I still use FS-N, which is reasonably stable and looks good for a long time.
> That said, the new PiezoTone midtones raised the bar substantially.  When I
> originally mixed the FS-N, it easily beat the PiezoBW.  At that time only
> the Epson Archival inkset seemed to have an advantage, and it's metamerism
> made it unusable.
> 
> Times have changed.  The PiezoTone midtones are excellent, as is the
> UltraChrome inkset and it's ability to print reasonably good B&W.  When I
> did comparison fade tests, I saw that the FS and VM inksets really were no
> longer in the top performance category.
> 
> So, now I'm upgrading the inks I use.  An Epson Archival black-based inkset
> (no metamerism in the black) is aimed at the high end of the neutral
> Piezo-compatible inksets.  I hope that MIS will mix it, but that is their
> decision, and I have not received any from them.  I'll mix it if I need to.
> I think it will be the ultimate in ink permanence with today's technology,
> and that is where I want to go.
> 
> Today, I'm fine-tuning a new VM inkset that is in the UltraChrome class.
> 
> The direction I'm going is pure pigment (no dyes at all and fade tests that
> are consistent with this) and glossy-paper compatibility.  The two inksets
> mentioned above are ready to go as soon as MIS puts them through its tests
> and decides whether to mix then and when to release them.  A new vm-s that
> is Epson Archival ink-based will be next.
> 
> So, in a few weeks there should be a full range of what I'd call "class A"
> (in the 100 year and up range) inks out there for B&W printers.  Right now,
> I don't think the FS or VM inks are in that class.  Technology has moved on.
> 
>> I am also concerned that the Piezotone inks may, in the future,
>> lead to DSS or other problems affecting Epson print-heads. My
>> understanding is that the MIS FS and FS-N inks have not
>> exhibited clogging or DSS problems. Are you aware of any
>> reports of DSS with the MIS FS and FS-N inks?
> 
> I can't speculate on future ink performance.  I am told by MIS that they
> have a number of tests that avoid some of the problems that other inks have
> had.  However, this could be competitive puffing, and I don't want to get in
> the middle of that.  With any new product, there is some risk of
> unanticipated problems.  Reputations and track records are obviously
> important in this respect.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>