Digital BW, The Print

Hans,

> what shall I answer my customers about the permanence.
>...I print with Epson 1290, MIS VM on Hahnemuehle PhotoRag.
>Any idea? 50+? 100+?

My best guess is that 50+ is safe.

Recall, of course, that these ratings are years of predicted display in
rather specific conditions.  The good news is that in photo albums, properly
stored, these pigmented inksets probably are truly archival.

The UC neutral prints are rated at 100+, and they are clearly superior to
the current VM inkset in my fade testing.  The old MIS archival color inks
were limited by the first generation yellow, which RIT rated at 49 years (if
memory serves me).  The VM inkset is better than this old yellow.  So, I'd
guess it's in the 70 year range (with good paper).

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

The MIS are rated at 100+ years, good enough for me.

Jerry

Hans Nohlberg wrote:

> Hi
> 
> Have been lurking some months on this list. It has helped me a lot 
> with several things. Thanks all.
> 
> My problem is now - what shall I answer my customers about the permanence.
> I have searched info on the web and in the B/W archive but cannot 
> find any relevant answer.
> I print with Epson 1290, MIS VM on Hahnemuehle PhotoRag.
> Any idea? 50+? 100+?
> 
> TIA
> Hans
> 
>

Paul,

Thanks a lot for your answer, as I'm using HPR I think I can stay 
with approx 70.

>Hans,
>
>>  what shall I answer my customers about the permanence.
>>...I print with Epson 1290, MIS VM on Hahnemuehle PhotoRag.
>>Any idea? 50+? 100+?
>
>My best guess is that 50+ is safe.
>
>Recall, of course, that these ratings are years of predicted display in
>rather specific conditions.  The good news is that in photo albums, properly
>stored, these pigmented inksets probably are truly archival.
>
>The UC neutral prints are rated at 100+, and they are clearly superior to
>the current VM inkset in my fade testing.  The old MIS archival color inks
>were limited by the first generation yellow, which RIT rated at 49 years (if
>memory serves me).  The VM inkset is better than this old yellow.  So, I'd
>guess it's in the 70 year range (with good paper).




-- 
Atelier Pictoform
Chia N-Löfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
Hedåsgatan 5
SE-412 53 Göteborg
SWEDEN

+46  (0)31181414

(Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)

www.artphotocollection.com

Hi Jerry,

100+ !!
Interesting.
Where have you found that?
Is that for all MIS inks on every paper/coating?

Best from
Hans


>The MIS are rated at 100+ years, good enough for me.
>
>Jerry
>
>Hans Nohlberg wrote:
>>  Hi
>>
>>  Have been lurking some months on this list. It has helped me a lot
>>  with several things. Thanks all.
>>
>>  My problem is now - what shall I answer my customers about the permanence.
>>  I have searched info on the web and in the B/W archive but cannot
>>  find any relevant answer.
>>  I print with Epson 1290, MIS VM on Hahnemuehle PhotoRag.
>>  Any idea? 50+? 100+?
>>
>>  TIA
>>  Hans
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
>this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
>to keep them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>"flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
>various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


-- 
Atelier Pictoform
Chia N-Löfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
Hedåsgatan 5
SE-412 53 Göteborg
SWEDEN

+46  (0)31181414

(Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)

www.artphotocollection.com

Hey guys;

I hate yo be the one to say 'the emperor wears no clothes' but the 
point needs to be made more bluntly. The 70+ 100+ years ratings for 
most of these inks are bunk. First of all, for those of you who 
missed it, or can't read between the lines, Wilhelm revamped his 
entire testing method because his tests assumed a linear fade rate, 
which is not correct, and which you can assume to mean in real 
terms, "oops-I think I screwed up". More important, what do you 
consider to be acceptable change? Maybe they won't fade noticeably 
in say 10-20 years if they're displayed properly, but I promise you 
they will get warmer, noticeably warmer, within a couple of years if 
framed, and a couple of months if left out exposed even to normal 
room conditions unprotected. Don't believe me? Test it. Tape a 
couple of prints up  somewhere in normal room light, with a mix of 
tungsten, daylight and fluorescent, (real world conditions guys) put 
a duplicate set in a box, and check them against each other every 
couple weeks.

The bottom line is these projections are good only as relative 
comparisons, and even then, comparing the VM, for instance with the 
dye inks assumes that Epson's and Wilhelm's numbers for the dye inks 
are meaningful. What do you think? Do you trust Epson's claims after 
the orange-shift debacle? I don't. I think if you sell digital 
prints right now at this point in the technology, you need to be 
prepared to replace them at some point in the not too distant future-
and hopefully, at that point we'll have truly archival solutions.

Sorry to be a party-pooper.

Steve Karafyllakis

http://stevekphoto.com

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans Nohlberg 
<chiahans@t...> wrote:
> Hi Jerry,
> 
> 100+ !!
> Interesting.
> Where have you found that?
> Is that for all MIS inks on every paper/coating?
> 
> Best from
> Hans
> 
> 
> >The MIS are rated at 100+ years, good enough for me.
> >
> >Jerry
> >
> >Hans Nohlberg wrote:
> >>  Hi
> >>
> >>  Have been lurking some months on this list. It has helped me a 
lot
> >>  with several things. Thanks all.
> >>
> >>  My problem is now - what shall I answer my customers about the 
permanence.
> >>  I have searched info on the web and in the B/W archive but 
cannot
> >>  find any relevant answer.
> >>  I print with Epson 1290, MIS VM on Hahnemuehle PhotoRag.
> >>  Any idea? 50+? 100+?
> >>
> >>  TIA
> >>  Hans
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls 
> >and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
at:
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish 
> >to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting 
> >this same page.
> >
> >Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >- Include your full name with your message.
> >- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages 
> >to keep them short.
> >- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> >&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> >- Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
> >various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> 
> 
> -- 
> Atelier Pictoform
> Chia N-Löfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
> Hedåsgatan 5
> SE-412 53 Göteborg
> SWEDEN
> 
> +46  (0)31181414
> 
> (Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)
> 
> www.artphotocollection.com

Steve is absolutely right!

I now have prints that are 3 years old that show a very substantial 
amount of warming and fade. That is why I no longer will sell a 
digitally produced print. 

Inkjet printing will eventually be truly archival, but for now and 
the near future, be prepared to replace prints should they change 
color and or fade.

Mike

What process did you use the produce these prints? 

Randy

"Michael J. Kravit " wrote:

> 
> Steve is absolutely right!
> 
> I now have prints that are 3 years old that show a very substantial
> amount of warming and fade. That is why I no longer will sell a
> digitally produced print.
> 
> Inkjet printing will eventually be truly archival, but for now and
> the near future, be prepared to replace prints should they change
> color and or fade.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

It is mentioned in Harald Johnson's new book on Digital Printing. I 
believe that is just for the ink. Seems I read
somewhere that the MIS was tested by RIT a couple years ago.

Jerry

Hans Nohlberg wrote:

> Hi Jerry,
> 
> 100+ !!
> Interesting.
> Where have you found that?
> Is that for all MIS inks on every paper/coating?
> 
> Best from
> Hans
> 
> 
> 
>>The MIS are rated at 100+ years, good enough for me.
>>
>>Jerry
>>
>>Hans Nohlberg wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Have been lurking some months on this list. It has helped me a lot
>>> with several things. Thanks all.
>>>
>>> My problem is now - what shall I answer my customers about the permanence.
>>> I have searched info on the web and in the B/W archive but cannot
>>> find any relevant answer.
>>> I print with Epson 1290, MIS VM on Hahnemuehle PhotoRag.
>>> Any idea? 50+? 100+?
>>>
>>> TIA
>>> Hans
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
>>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
>>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
>>this same page.
>>
>>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>- Include your full name with your message.
>>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
>>to keep them short.
>>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>>"flames."
>>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
>>various resources on the homepage.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

Steven, I've had MIS VM ink prints on display in my home since they came 
out. I see no fading at all under
roomlight conditions. If you put them in sunlight, of course they will 
fade. Usually I get to about 2.5-3 months
in a sunny window before noticeable fading occurs with VM inks and the 
Enhanced Black  hybrid from Media Street's
Generations 4 set. If you print on 100 percent cotton paper that is acid 
free, that's about as good as you can
expect today. So I don't really worry about fading any more.  Both the 
MIS inks and the Generations inks (Pigments)
are excellent at this stage of the game, as good as epsons, anyway.

There are a LOT of variables that could easily change these results, 
humidity, air quality, location, etc.

Jerry




Steven Karafyllakis wrote:

> Hey guys;
> 
> I hate yo be the one to say 'the emperor wears no clothes' but the 
> point needs to be made more bluntly. The 70+ 100+ years ratings for 
> most of these inks are bunk. First of all, for those of you who 
> missed it, or can't read between the lines, Wilhelm revamped his 
> entire testing method because his tests assumed a linear fade rate, 
> which is not correct, and which you can assume to mean in real 
> terms, "oops-I think I screwed up". More important, what do you 
> consider to be acceptable change? Maybe they won't fade noticeably 
> in say 10-20 years if they're displayed properly, but I promise you 
> they will get warmer, noticeably warmer, within a couple of years if 
> framed, and a couple of months if left out exposed even to normal 
> room conditions unprotected. Don't believe me? Test it. Tape a 
> couple of prints up  somewhere in normal room light, with a mix of 
> tungsten, daylight and fluorescent, (real world conditions guys) put 
> a duplicate set in a box, and check them against each other every 
> couple weeks.
> 
> The bottom line is these projections are good only as relative 
> comparisons, and even then, comparing the VM, for instance with the 
> dye inks assumes that Epson's and Wilhelm's numbers for the dye inks 
> are meaningful. What do you think? Do you trust Epson's claims after 
> the orange-shift debacle? I don't. I think if you sell digital 
> prints right now at this point in the technology, you need to be 
> prepared to replace them at some point in the not too distant future-
> and hopefully, at that point we'll have truly archival solutions.
> 
> Sorry to be a party-pooper.
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> http://stevekphoto.com
> 
> -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans Nohlberg 
> <chiahans@t...> wrote:
> 
>>Hi Jerry,
>>
>>100+ !!
>>Interesting.
>>Where have you found that?
>>Is that for all MIS inks on every paper/coating?
>>
>>Best from
>>Hans
>>
>>
>>
>>>The MIS are rated at 100+ years, good enough for me.
>>>
>>>Jerry
>>>
>>>Hans Nohlberg wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> Have been lurking some months on this list. It has helped me a 
>>>
> lot
> 
>>>> with several things. Thanks all.
>>>>
>>>> My problem is now - what shall I answer my customers about the 
>>>
> permanence.
> 
>>>> I have searched info on the web and in the B/W archive but 
>>>
> cannot
> 
>>>> find any relevant answer.
>>>> I print with Epson 1290, MIS VM on Hahnemuehle PhotoRag.
>>>> Any idea? 50+? 100+?
>>>>
>>>> TIA
>>>> Hans
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
>>
> Polls 
> 
>>>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
>>
> at:
> 
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>
>>>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
>>
> wish 
> 
>>>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
>>
> visiting 
> 
>>>this same page.
>>>
>>>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>- Include your full name with your message.
>>>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
>>
> messages 
> 
>>>to keep them short.
>>>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
>>
> header.
> 
>>>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>>>&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>>>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
>>>various resources on the homepage.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
>>
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>>
>>-- 
>>Atelier Pictoform
>>Chia N-L\ufffdfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
>>Hed\ufffdsgatan 5
>>SE-412 53 G\ufffdteborg
>>SWEDEN
>>
>>+46  (0)31181414
>>
>>(Bes\ufffdk/visit Hed\ufffdsgatan 6)
>>
>>www.artphotocollection.com
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>

Steve wrote:

"... 70+ 100+ years ratings for most of these inks are bunk. ...

I would not go quite that far.  You said it correctly at the end of your
post -- specifically:

>The bottom line is these projections are good only as
>relative comparisons ...

I think this is correct, and I also think all the testing is getting us much
better materials.  But, don't leave any of these prints in the sun.

>...Wilhelm revamped his entire testing method ...

It's a moving target.  I think he is moving more toward the "accelerated
aging" tests that are used.  But here there are even fewer standards.  There
are major assumptions and defects with all of these accelerated tests.  But,
they are better than nothing.  It is at least helping us evaluate the
choices that are out there, and it's much more rigorous than anything that
was done with the older, traditional materials.

I hope the points I've been making about my own testing have been heard loud
and clear: The simple light-box and south-window tests appear to be valid
ONLY for similarly-composed pigments.  They cannot hold the humidity where
it needs to be (not to mention other air-borne oxidizers).  As such they
exaggerate the relative performance of some (uncoated) pigments because they
dry them out, and humidity/moisture are prime culprits in the fading.  These
bright-light tests may have been most useful in simply seeing how much dye
was in the particular inkset.

So, with respect to the coated UltraChromes and Epson Archival pigs, there
are probably NO affordable comparative tests that can accurately see the
advantages of the coatings that keep the moisture and other air-borne
substances away from the pigments.

I think we may have reached the point where the cheap testers (including
what I, MIS and Cone have, as far as I know) cannot accurately even compare
the best pigments.  I think all we might be able to say is that the pigment
appears to be a "class A" material.  (Some writers in the
preservation/conservation area seem to use "class A" to describe materials
that they believe are good for 100 years -- to the extent anyone can tell.)
That is, in effect, what Wilhelm is starting to do.  As best I can tell, the
PiezoTone NW and selenium midtones, UltraChrome black pigments, and Epson
Archival pigments are in this class.  (I assume the Museum black is there
also, but I have not tested it.)  I would not rate any of the older pigments
as "class A" pigs.

Mike wrote:

>I now have prints that are 3 years old that show a very substantial
>amount of warming and fade.

The warming is, obviously, a problem with older quads.  They warmed a lot.
But the newest pigs have it fairly under control, as far as I can tell.

All inks fade.  However, so do the silver prints and everything else.  I was
looking for statistics on un-toned silver prints, and about all I found was
in the 150 year range.  If that is true, the best of the current pigments
may be close to the un-toned silver print.  Again, however, I doubt any of
our testing is up to the task of even a comparative fade evaluation of these
very different emulsions.  (Kodak has a lot of material on these problems on
its site also.)

I was reading a piece by one of the RIT gurus on preservation, and it
appears that the 1:19 selenium toning many of us did for years (based on
AA's practice) is not enough to protect those silver prints.  So, the AA
prints are all at risk also.

The worst Ansel Adams prints I ever saw were severely degraded by the fact
that the retouching materials had not held up.  It had nothing to do with
the silver fading.  Ironically, a digital print would have avoided this and
looked much better.

The RIT guru was saying that the atmospheric pollutants, not light, may be
doing the most damage.  That is part of my recent interest in encapsulation.

>Inkjet printing will eventually be truly archival, but for now and
>the near future, be prepared to replace prints should they change
>color and or fade.

You've seen where I'm going -- Epson Archival pigs.  They still warm a hair,
but it's not very significant.  These pigs might be in the un-toned silver
print class (and probably better at resisting air pollution), which is not
too shabby.  I fully intend to (try to) sell these (and not lose any sleep
over whether they will fade unreasonably fast).

>I no longer will sell a digitally produced print.

Mike, is there really any way to be sure your prints are any better than the
best archival pigments?

We all thought the 1:19 selenium-toned silver prints were "forever" also.
The old UN-tested dogmas may not be much better than the newer over-hyped
inkjet representations.  All of the old photos that come my way are
obviously faded, but they are still interesting and have value also.

No doubt the older pigs (all of which turned out to have dyes in them)
warmed and faded noticeably in regular display, whereas the silver and
platinum don't appear to, but I really wonder how most of the older
materials would hold up in a rigorous comparative test (which is probably
exceedingly difficult to do).

Mike, I assume (like you, I'm sure) that the platinum and toned silver
prints (if properly processed -- a big IF) are still the leaders -- perhaps
by a significant margin.  I think the market prices do and will reflect this
assumption.  However, I'm feeling rather comfortable with the Epson Archival
pigs on truly archival matte (not EAM/EEM).

(By the way Mike, we miss your regular and excellent posts.)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Jerry Olson wrote:

> Steven, I've had MIS VM ink prints on display in my home since they came
> out. I see no fading at all under
> roomlight conditions. If you put them in sunlight, of course they will
> fade. Usually I get to about 2.5-3 months
> in a sunny window before noticeable fading occurs with VM inks and the
> Enhanced Black  hybrid from Media Street's
> Generations 4 set. If you print on 100 percent cotton paper that is acid
> free, that's about as good as you can
> expect today. So I don't really worry about fading any more.  Both the
> MIS inks and the Generations inks (Pigments)
> are excellent at this stage of the game, as good as epsons, anyway.
>
> There are a LOT of variables that could easily change these results,
> humidity, air quality, location, etc.
>
> Jerry

Jerry;

I have used the MIS VM inks and have seen VAST warming on prints that I have left out over a few months laying around my office that only receives indirect
sunlight and some indirect tugsten. I'm printing on HPR 188 and EAM. Mind you.. I print mostly with Paul's medium warm and warm curve. I am almost positive
the reason that you see less warming than other users is because you make your prints with the cooler curves and the blue toner ink warms much less over
time.


On a side note: I also have some color prints laying around the same office printed on Epson semi gloss with Epson 1160 OEM inks. Over the same time period
or more.. the prints have not shown ANY fading / color shifts. This comparison really goes against what I would have expected!

-Jeff

Jerry Olson wrote:

> ...I've had MIS VM ink prints on display in my home since they came
> out. I see no fading at all under roomlight conditions. ...

Jeff wrote:

>I have used the MIS VM inks and have seen VAST warming ...

The VM base inks are the old MIS quad inks.  They warm rather quickly, but
then they stabilize and the underlying pigments seem to be OK for a long
time.  I have some original MIS quad prints on second-rate paper on my walls
that look fine -- warmer than new, but when not side-by-side with a cooler
print, they don't seem too brown.

>... I am almost positive the reason that you [Jerry] see less
>warming than other users is because you make your prints with
>the cooler curves and the blue toner ink warms much less
>over time.

I think that is a significant factor.  The cyan pigment used in the toner is
very fade resistant.

>On a side note: I also have some color prints ... printed on
>Epson semi gloss with Epson 1160 OEM inks. Over the same time
>period or more.. the prints have not shown ANY fading / color
>shifts. This comparison really goes against what I would have expected!

They may not appear to warm as much as the quads, and that may be the most
striking visual change in the prints.  In a neutral print the eye is
amazingly sensitive to color tints and changes, when compared to a standard,
un-changed print.  Bright colors mask small changes.  That is why even the
best color inksets are so hard to control when trying to make a neutral/B&W
print.

On the fading issue, the black dye might fade the fastest.  So, the initial
dye burn-out of the older quads could well be faster than the dye fading of
the color prints.  However, once the small amount of dyes are burned out,
the pigmented quads will last much longer.  That is, the changes are not
linear with the pigmented inksets.  There is an initial rapid change period
as the dyes burn off.  Then the prints go into a much slower fade rate.
With the dye inksets, the relatively rapid fading continues.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Steven, I've had MIS VM ink prints on display in my home since 
they came 
> out. I see no fading at all under
> roomlight conditions. If you put them in sunlight, of course they 
will 
> fade.

Jerry, if you put them in sunlight, unprotected, they will color 
fade noticably in under 24 hours of exposure time. I have a south 
facing window with 1/4 inch glass I tape them to, that gives them 4-
5 hours of direct sun every day. I once got 2 weeks before noticing 
fade-in a time period when it rained every day for for all but three 
days of that, and that's behind 1/4 glass. Obviously you can set up 
conditions that will greatly extend that time, but do you have 
control of that when you sell a print?

> If you print on 100 percent cotton paper that is acid 
> free, that's about as good as you can
> expect today.

That may be true, but the real quetion is: is it realy good enough? 


> So I don't really worry about fading any more.  Both the 
> MIS inks and the Generations inks (Pigments)
> are excellent at this stage of the game, as good as epsons, anyway.

No they're not.They are simply a great deal more available, but if 
you put any stock in the existing tests, the relative stability of 
the Epson archival inks is better, though I suspect that 100+ years 
on those is sheer delusion also.
> 
> There are a LOT of variables that could easily change these 
results, 
> humidity, air quality, location, etc.

Well we do agree on that.

Steve K

> 
> Jerry
> 
>

> Jerry, if you put them in sunlight, unprotected, they will color
> fade noticably in under 24 hours of exposure time.

Sorry Steve, this is simply not true. As I said, I have had VM ink prints in
a sunny window for 2 months and I can't tell them from a dark storage print.
Somewhere between 2 and 3 months, I do notice fading.

Jerry

As I said, The Gen 4 and MIS inks are the best I can get today, and I'm
simply not going to worry about fading any more.  I have a couple prints in
a local gallery that have been in frames, under fluorescent lights for over
2 years. They show absolutely no sign of fading.





 I have a south 

> facing window with 1/4 inch glass I tape them to, that gives them 4-
> 5 hours of direct sun every day. I once got 2 weeks before noticing
> fade-in a time period when it rained every day for for all but three
> days of that, and that's behind 1/4 glass. Obviously you can set up
> conditions that will greatly extend that time, but do you have
> control of that when you sell a print?
> 
>> If you print on 100 percent cotton paper that is acid
>> free, that's about as good as you can
>> expect today.
> 
> That may be true, but the real quetion is: is it realy good enough?
> 
> 
>> So I don't really worry about fading any more.  Both the
>> MIS inks and the Generations inks (Pigments)
>> are excellent at this stage of the game, as good as epsons, anyway.
> 
> No they're not.They are simply a great deal more available, but if
> you put any stock in the existing tests, the relative stability of
> the Epson archival inks is better, though I suspect that 100+ years
> on those is sheer delusion also.
>> 
>> There are a LOT of variables that could easily change these
> results, 
>> humidity, air quality, location, etc.
> 
> Well we do agree on that.
> 
> Steve K
>> 
>> Jerry
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Yes, I never use the warm curves, usually the cold. That may be why I don't
see any fading.

Jerry

> I have used the MIS VM inks and have seen VAST warming on prints that I have
> left out over a few months laying around my office that only receives indirect
> sunlight and some indirect tugsten. I'm printing on HPR 188 and EAM. Mind
> you.. I print mostly with Paul's medium warm and warm curve. I am almost
> positive
> the reason that you see less warming than other users is because you make your
> prints with the cooler curves and the blue toner ink warms much less over
> time.
> 
> 
> On a side note: I also have some color prints laying around the same office
> printed on Epson semi gloss with Epson 1160 OEM inks. Over the same time
> period

Paul, I have read some but not all the posts on this thread.  I see you are
leaning toward the Epson inks.  Do you have any feel for relative permanence
of the VM-S inks on HPR or EEM, vs. the Epson inks on (?) paper?  (I am
using the VM-S inks with your curves and very satisfied....for once)   If
the Epson inks are much better "archivally", how do you handle the problems
of getting an accurate b&w print with color inks?  Most everything I print
goes in dark storage until it is framed.  Thanks for any info.

BTW, I tend to think a lot of the problem with silver prints is inadequate
fixing and washing.  The AA technique, which I used for a long time, was to
use two fixing baths, the first somewhat hardened fixer and the second plain
hypo, for three minutes each.  I think these were difficult prints to wash.
The Ilford 60-second fix, with a good print washer, is better.  Also, a lot
of those prints were not adequately washed before being toned in selenium.
Or the drying screens were contaminated with hypo, etc.  I have seen the
same thing happen with pt/pd prints, mainly because the clearing baths were
not fresh.

BTW(2): The only prints I "sell" are those donated to charity auctions where
the buyers get too much whiskey and have only themselves to blame.  But I
would like to have some semblance of responsibility...

  --Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Permanence - Jerry


> Jerry Olson wrote:
>
> > ...I've had MIS VM ink prints on display in my home since they came
> > out. I see no fading at all under roomlight conditions. ...
>
> Jeff wrote:
>
> >I have used the MIS VM inks and have seen VAST warming ...
>
> The VM base inks are the old MIS quad inks.  They warm rather quickly, but
> then they stabilize and the underlying pigments seem to be OK for a long
> time.  I have some original MIS quad prints on second-rate paper on my
walls
> that look fine -- warmer than new, but when not side-by-side with a cooler
> print, they don't seem too brown.
>
> >... I am almost positive the reason that you [Jerry] see less
> >warming than other users is because you make your prints with
> >the cooler curves and the blue toner ink warms much less
> >over time.
>
> I think that is a significant factor.  The cyan pigment used in the toner
is
> very fade resistant.
>
> >On a side note: I also have some color prints ... printed on
> >Epson semi gloss with Epson 1160 OEM inks. Over the same time
> >period or more.. the prints have not shown ANY fading / color
> >shifts. This comparison really goes against what I would have expected!
>
> They may not appear to warm as much as the quads, and that may be the most
> striking visual change in the prints.  In a neutral print the eye is
> amazingly sensitive to color tints and changes, when compared to a
standard,
> un-changed print.  Bright colors mask small changes.  That is why even the
> best color inksets are so hard to control when trying to make a
neutral/B&W
> print.
>
> On the fading issue, the black dye might fade the fastest.  So, the
initial
> dye burn-out of the older quads could well be faster than the dye fading
of
> the color prints.  However, once the small amount of dyes are burned out,
> the pigmented quads will last much longer.  That is, the changes are not
> linear with the pigmented inksets.  There is an initial rapid change
period
> as the dyes burn off.  Then the prints go into a much slower fade rate.
> With the dye inksets, the relatively rapid fading continues.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Doug,

>>>The Epson Archival pigs are the best there are from what I can tell.

>When you say "Epson Archival pigs" are you talking about the
>OEM inks for the 2000P, or the UltraChromes for the 2100/2200,
>or something else?

The pigments I'm referring to are/were in the 2000P, 7500, 9500 &
10000/10600 when using the "Archival" (in the U.S.) or "CF" (ColorFast)
outside the U.S.

These are not the UltraChrome pigments, which have a shorter life -- a
compromise Epson made to get better gamut.

I do not mean to say that the Epson Archival pigments are good for color --
they are low gamut and suffer serious metamerism.  For color, I recommend
the UltraChromes.  Luckily, the black Archival pigment does not have a
significant metamerism problem.  That is one reason why the light black is
in the UltraChrome inkset.  Resin-encapsulated *color* pigments seem suffer
high metamerism.  However, the black coated pigments do not.  So, Epson uses
the light black instead of a combination of color pigments to achieve a
neutral tone in the UltraChrome inkset.  Among other things, it has the
effect of lowering metamerism.  (The black is also a more lightfast pigment
than the color ones.)

The experimental quad I've mixed with the Epson Archival pigment uses no
color dyes or color pigments, is dead neutral from 45%-55%, and about 0.01
unit warm outside that range (plus or minus 0.01 unit depending on other
random factors).  It seemed to run very well on my 1160.  For a neutral
quad, I'm heavily leaning toward this mix.  (The draft mix I published is
not the final one.)

On Epson Premium Luster my 7500 gets a dmax of 2.2 with the Epson Archival
black that is loaded in that.  On the 1160, the Archival black only gets to
about 1.48 on matter paper.  So, I'm leaning toward using PiezoTone Museum
black for matte paper.  I have not fade tested it, but the Cone published
fade test looks very good, and I like the look of the Museum black.

I do not know if MIS will mix the Epson Archival black quad or not.  They
are looking at it, but they do a number of tests on inks and may find that
the mix has problems that will crop up in the real world that makes the mix
inappropriate.

In general, I'm leaning toward inksets that can print on matte or glossy,
like the UltraChromes and Epson Archival inks, with the black ink being
changed to optimize the image on each paper.  I think it's time to open up
easy glossy printing to B&W.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul -

Thanks for the reply.  I have a few quick follow-up questions if you have a
minute:

>>The experimental quad I've mixed with the Epson Archival pigment uses no
color dyes or color pigments, is dead neutral from 45%-55%, and about 0.01
unit warm outside that range (plus or minus 0.01 unit depending on other
random factors).  It seemed to run very well on my 1160.<<

So is this experimental quad for your 1160 made of the your special brew for
black and then three normal VM or VM-S pigments in the other
carts/positions?  If so, do you just use your standard VM or VM-S curves for
printing?  Does it allow you to print on surfaces other than matte (glossy,
semi matte)?

>> I think it's time to open up easy glossy printing to B&W.<<

Amen to that!

Thanks,
Doug

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> 
> > Jerry, if you put them in sunlight, unprotected, they will color
> > fade noticably in under 24 hours of exposure time.
> 
> Sorry Steve, this is simply not true.
Jerry, how can you possibly state so unequivocaly that MY experience 
is simply NOT TRUE? Am I hallucinating this? What you're refusing to 
see is that the range of experience with this has been quite 
different for different people-point being that if someone goes away 
from this forum thinking he's got something more or less bulletproof 
he's quite likely to get blind-sided and lose time, money, and 
customers over it. 
As I said, I have had VM ink prints in
> a sunny window for 2 months and I can't tell them from a dark 
storage print.
> Somewhere between 2 and 3 months, I do notice fading.

Tell you what-send me two grayscales, I'll store one and expose the 
other to our nice Florida sunlight for a week, (it is winter after 
all, even here) and then I'll send them to a third party for 
evaluation. Mind you, I'd love to have you prove me wrong, because 
inspite of my caution, I've been selling a few as well, and it would 
ease my maind a lot if all I had to do is add a bit more blue toner 
to extend the life of my prints. How about it?

Steve K
> 
> Jerry
> 
> As I said, The Gen 4 and MIS inks are the best I can get today, 
and I'm
> simply not going to worry about fading any more.  I have a couple 
prints in
> a local gallery that have been in frames, under fluorescent lights 
for over
> 2 years. They show absolutely no sign of fading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  I have a south 
> > facing window with 1/4 inch glass I tape them to, that gives 
them 4-
> > 5 hours of direct sun every day. I once got 2 weeks before 
noticing
> > fade-in a time period when it rained every day for for all but 
three
> > days of that, and that's behind 1/4 glass. Obviously you can set 
up
> > conditions that will greatly extend that time, but do you have
> > control of that when you sell a print?
> > 
> >> If you print on 100 percent cotton paper that is acid
> >> free, that's about as good as you can
> >> expect today.
> > 
> > That may be true, but the real quetion is: is it realy good 
enough?
> > 
> > 
> >> So I don't really worry about fading any more.  Both the
> >> MIS inks and the Generations inks (Pigments)
> >> are excellent at this stage of the game, as good as epsons, 
anyway.
> > 
> > No they're not.They are simply a great deal more available, but 
if
> > you put any stock in the existing tests, the relative stability 
of
> > the Epson archival inks is better, though I suspect that 100+ 
years
> > on those is sheer delusion also.
> >> 
> >> There are a LOT of variables that could easily change these
> > results, 
> >> humidity, air quality, location, etc.
> > 
> > Well we do agree on that.
> > 
> > Steve K
> >> 
> >> Jerry
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> >

"Steven Karafyllakis " wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> >
> > > Jerry, if you put them in sunlight, unprotected, they will color
> > > fade noticably in under 24 hours of exposure time.
> >
> > Sorry Steve, this is simply not true.
> Jerry, how can you possibly state so unequivocaly that MY experience
> is simply NOT TRUE? Am I hallucinating this? 

Steven:

If you read my post from yesterday you will see why Jerry does not see
much warming / fade and you do!

-Jeff

Doug,

>>The experimental quad I've mixed with the Epson Archival pigment
>>uses no color dyes or color pigments, is dead neutral from
>>45%-55%, and about 0.01 unit warm outside that range (plus or
>>minus 0.01 unit depending on other random factors).
>>It seemed to run very well on my 1160.<<

>So is this experimental quad for your 1160 made of the
>your special brew for black and then three normal VM or
>VM-S pigments in the other carts/positions?

No, the diluted Epson Archival Black pigment is for the midtones.

It's not really my special brew.  All I did was dilute the standard Epson
Archival Black with clear base in the appropriate ratios (the hard part) to
get the densities that would run with Piezo software.  It can also be
printed with the Epson driver.  I consider the PiezoBW ink densities to be a
good standard starting place.  There are lots of those drivers (which are
now rather cheap) and lots of Epson workflows for that type of inkset.

I published the entire formula on this forum, although that one is a draft
that is not the final mix.

The fact that the image formed with this inkset (if the Archival black is
also in the black position) is composed of 100% Epson Archival black pigment
is part of it's value.  I can't afford a Wilhelm test, but Epson can.  No
collector/high end purchaser is going to be comfortable with "Paul's special
brew."  On the other hand, the Epson pigments, with all the Epson
advertising hype and Wilhelm tests behind them, should be a relatively easy
thing for purchasers to accept.

For the black position, use whatever black you like.  For glossy paper or
the ultimate in print longevity, I recommend the Epson Archival black.  For
matte paper the FS-K, Epson UltraChrome Matte black, Cone Museum black ...
are all fine candidates.  The FS-K continues to be the best value; the Epson
Archival K is the toughest (but weak on matte paper); the UC Matte black is
excellent on some papers (a bit warm and printed in a wavy manner on my
1160); and the Cone Museum black looks very nice, tested well in Cones fade
test, and is what I may well use for most of my matte paper printing.  (I
like the fact that the Museum black, according to Jon Cone, is pure carbon.
I can spray it with a light B72 fixative (with it's alleged 400 year
stability) and call the print an "encapsulated carbon pigment" giclee --
marketing.)

> If so, do you just use your standard VM or VM-S curves for
>printing?

This initial Epson Archival inkset is an FS/Piezo-compatible inkset.
Variable-tone inksets (UC-class standard vm and Archival vm-s) will probably
follow.

>  Does it allow you to print on surfaces other than matte (glossy,
>semi matte)?

I will probably no longer design any inkset that does not print on glossy,
but we still have to deal with the black ink switching -- just like the
UltraChrome printers.  That is the new standard, in my view -- no dyes at
all (thus no significant warming) and glossy paper compatibility for the
midtones.  (And there are very affordable third-party pigments that do this
in beta now.)

>> I think it's time to open up easy glossy printing to B&W.<<

>Amen to that!

I think the RC prints have their place.  I still like matte, however.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Sorry Steve, I always forget to say it is MY experience when I mention 
test results.  North Dakota sun is very
different than florida sun. We don't have many pollutants up here. In 
fact our state was mentioned in Newsweek
or Time (one of those weeklies) as having the cleanest air of any state 
in the country.

Also, I see you are working with Paul's warm curves. It's the cold curve 
with the blue/cyan ink that is probably causing
my prints to last so long without fading.

But boy, 24 hours of sunlight and your prints fade, that sure is 
different from my tests up here!

Jerry


> Jerry, how can you possibly state so unequivocaly that MY experience 
> is simply NOT TRUE?

No, I meant it isn't true for MY testing results here. I forgot to say 
that. I didn't mean YOUR tests
didn't fade!

  Also, I use the Media Street Enhanced black instead of the VM black, 
because it is noticeably a deeper
black. I keep saying this so much and so often I tend to forget a newbie 
wouldn't know that. I'll be more
clear from now on.

Send me your address, and I'll send you a couple grayscale stepwedges. 
I'll keep one up here in my window for
a week also, and one in dark storage.

They will all be printed on EAM paper, with Paul Roark's Cold Curve.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Sorry Steve, I always forget to say it is MY experience when I 
mention 

Apolgy accepted
> test results.  North Dakota sun is very
> different than florida sun. We don't have many pollutants up here. 
In 
> fact our state was mentioned in Newsweek
> or Time (one of those weeklies) as having the cleanest air of any 
state 
> in the country


> 
> Also, I see you are working with Paul's warm curves. 

Where did you see that? You've got me confused with the other Steve 
I think. The VMs didn't work well in my 1280 when I tried them six 
months ago. And yes, uprotected in direct sunlight they shifted very 
quickly. I've been coming up with my own dilutions of MIS black and 
clear base, with olny a few drops of blue toner to cool the ink down 
a bit. That holds up better than the VMs, but not well enough that I 
can quit worrying about it. At least that's my current mix, but 
tomorrow I'm following Paul's lead and re-mixing with the Epson 
Archival K. 
I do hope MIS can start selling the Epson K in bulk, that would be 
ideal until something better comes along.

Regards,

Steve Karafyllakis

http://www.stevekphoto.com

Paul, can the Cone museum black be used with the MIS VM set? I have 
been using the VM set for most of a year now but left anywhere near a 
south window fades warm in just a short time.

Vinny
http://wulfsden.com




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Doug,
> 
> >>The experimental quad I've mixed with the Epson Archival pigment
> >>uses no color dyes or color pigments, is dead neutral from
> >>45%-55%, and about 0.01 unit warm outside that range (plus or
> >>minus 0.01 unit depending on other random factors).
> >>It seemed to run very well on my 1160.<<
> 
> >So is this experimental quad for your 1160 made of the
> >your special brew for black and then three normal VM or
> >VM-S pigments in the other carts/positions?
> 
> No, the diluted Epson Archival Black pigment is for the midtones.
> 
> It's not really my special brew.  All I did was dilute the standard 
Epson
> Archival Black with clear base in the appropriate ratios (the hard 
part) to
> get the densities that would run with Piezo software.  It can also 
be
> printed with the Epson driver.  I consider the PiezoBW ink 
densities to be a
> good standard starting place.  There are lots of those drivers 
(which are
> now rather cheap) and lots of Epson workflows for that type of 
inkset.
> 
> I published the entire formula on this forum, although that one is 
a draft
> that is not the final mix.
> 
> The fact that the image formed with this inkset (if the Archival 
black is
> also in the black position) is composed of 100% Epson Archival 
black pigment
> is part of it's value.  I can't afford a Wilhelm test, but Epson 
can.  No
> collector/high end purchaser is going to be comfortable 
with "Paul's special
> brew."  On the other hand, the Epson pigments, with all the Epson
> advertising hype and Wilhelm tests behind them, should be a 
relatively easy
> thing for purchasers to accept.
> 
> For the black position, use whatever black you like.  For glossy 
paper or
> the ultimate in print longevity, I recommend the Epson Archival 
black.  For
> matte paper the FS-K, Epson UltraChrome Matte black, Cone Museum 
black ...
> are all fine candidates.  The FS-K continues to be the best value; 
the Epson
> Archival K is the toughest (but weak on matte paper); the UC Matte 
black is
> excellent on some papers (a bit warm and printed in a wavy manner 
on my
> 1160); and the Cone Museum black looks very nice, tested well in 
Cones fade
> test, and is what I may well use for most of my matte paper 
printing.  (I
> like the fact that the Museum black, according to Jon Cone, is pure 
carbon.
> I can spray it with a light B72 fixative (with it's alleged 400 year
> stability) and call the print an "encapsulated carbon pigment" 
giclee --
> marketing.)
> 
> > If so, do you just use your standard VM or VM-S curves for
> >printing?
> 
> This initial Epson Archival inkset is an FS/Piezo-compatible inkset.
> Variable-tone inksets (UC-class standard vm and Archival vm-s) will 
probably
> follow.
> 
> >  Does it allow you to print on surfaces other than matte (glossy,
> >semi matte)?
> 
> I will probably no longer design any inkset that does not print on 
glossy,
> but we still have to deal with the black ink switching -- just like 
the
> UltraChrome printers.  That is the new standard, in my view -- no 
dyes at
> all (thus no significant warming) and glossy paper compatibility 
for the
> midtones.  (And there are very affordable third-party pigments that 
do this
> in beta now.)
> 
> >> I think it's time to open up easy glossy printing to B&W.<<
> 
> >Amen to that!
> 
> I think the RC prints have their place.  I still like matte, 
however.

> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Vinny,

> can the Cone museum black be used with the MIS VM set?

I suppose so, but I've never tried it.  Frankly, I think the Museum black is
overkill for the vm inkset.  The VM-K is already more lightfast than the
midtones.

>... the VM set ... left anywhere near a
>south window fades warm in just a short time.

The vm inkset is based on the old MIS quad black, and it does warm up with
light exposure.  I believe there must be a small amount of dye in the black
pigmented ink from which the midtones are mixed.  So, I think what is
happening is that the dye burns off and leaves the warm carbon, which will
then fade at a much lower rate.

The FS-N was the first of the non-warming inksets.  The vm-s uses the FS-N
gray.  As such, the neutral end of the vm-s inkset will not warm
significantly.  Visually, this makes a big difference.

There is a new UC-Class vm in the works.  I'll call MIS and see if I can
move it along.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Steve. Let me know if you EVER come up with the holy grail...
Deep blacks, and longevity.

Jerry






"Steven Karafyllakis " wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > Sorry Steve, I always forget to say it is MY experience when I
> mention
> 
> Apolgy accepted
> > test results.  North Dakota sun is very
> > different than florida sun. We don't have many pollutants up here.
> In
> > fact our state was mentioned in Newsweek
> > or Time (one of those weeklies) as having the cleanest air of any
> state
> > in the country
> 
> >
> > Also, I see you are working with Paul's warm curves.
> 
> Where did you see that? You've got me confused with the other Steve
> I think. The VMs didn't work well in my 1280 when I tried them six
> months ago. And yes, uprotected in direct sunlight they shifted very
> quickly. I've been coming up with my own dilutions of MIS black and
> clear base, with olny a few drops of blue toner to cool the ink down
> a bit. That holds up better than the VMs, but not well enough that I
> can quit worrying about it. At least that's my current mix, but
> tomorrow I'm following Paul's lead and re-mixing with the Epson
> Archival K.
> I do hope MIS can start selling the Epson K in bulk, that would be
> ideal until something better comes along.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> http://www.stevekphoto.com
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> 
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> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
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Paul, thanks for the info. Looking forward to the hopefull "new inks"
I like what I get, just like it to stay that way for a while.

Vinny
http://www.wulfsden.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Vinny,
> 
> > can the Cone museum black be used with the MIS VM set?
> 
> I suppose so, but I've never tried it.  Frankly, I think the Museum 
black is
> overkill for the vm inkset.  The VM-K is already more lightfast 
than the
> midtones.
> 
> >... the VM set ... left anywhere near a
> >south window fades warm in just a short time.
> 
> The vm inkset is based on the old MIS quad black, and it does warm 
up with
> light exposure.  I believe there must be a small amount of dye in 
the black
> pigmented ink from which the midtones are mixed.  So, I think what 
is
> happening is that the dye burns off and leaves the warm carbon, 
which will
> then fade at a much lower rate.
> 
> The FS-N was the first of the non-warming inksets.  The vm-s uses 
the FS-N
> gray.  As such, the neutral end of the vm-s inkset will not warm
> significantly.  Visually, this makes a big difference.
> 
> There is a new UC-Class vm in the works.  I'll call MIS and see if 
I can

> move it along.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Hi Paul,

I am about to switch inks from the original Piezo/Sundance. I am 
planning on replacing them with either Piezotones, or a blend of 
MIS FS-N (80%) & FS (20%) inks. I am concerned with ink/print 
permanence -- also about DSS syndrome (which my current 
1160 now exhibits). I still feel more than disappointed by Jon 
Cone's claims about the original Piezo/Sundance inks, in 
contrast to the "reality" so many of us experienced.

I have read Jon Cone's published accelerated-aging tests of 
Piezotone inks in comparison with MIS FS inks, and his claims 
of under 2% fading of Piezotone, vs. a 17% fading, accompanied 
by significant color shift, for FS inks.

I have noted a potential short-coming of Cone's tests:
That Cone tested Piezotone only against MIS FS, and not against 
FS-N. According to my reading of your own testing of FS and 
FS-N inks, the FS-N seemed more stable than FS.

If I remember correctly, when you did your own fade-tests of FS 
and FS-N, that you found only a 2% fade for FS-N and that FS-N 
is color/tone stable. This is very different than the 17% fade that 
Cone claims he found with FS ink. I recognize that Cone tested 
for a longer time, and perhaps also with a more intense light 
source. However, the 2% print-fade that you found with FS-N 
seems a reasonably acceptable standard for "permanence" to 
me, especially if the  color/tone of the print is also stable. For this 
reason, I'd like your current thoughts on this matter of fade and 
color/tone stability of FS-N ink. Is (in your opinion) FS-N in fact 
less subject to fading, and more color/tone-stable, than Cone is 
suggesting in his published ratings of MIS FS inks? Is Cone 
comparing apples and oranges by leaving FS-N out of his fading 
tests?

I am also concerned that the Piezotone inks may, in the future, 
lead to DSS or other problems affecting Epson print-heads. My 
understanding is that the MIS FS and FS-N inks have not 
exhibited clogging or DSS problems. Are you aware of any 
reports of DSS with the MIS FS and FS-N inks?

[I will be placing my backup/unused 1160 into service with the 
new inks, replacing my current 1160 (with its DSS symptoms). I 
hope that I will not encounter the infamous DSS syndrome in the 
future, so I do have concerns about Cone's inks (old and new), 
and the possible damage that they may cause to Epson 
print-heads in the longer run.]

With all respect to Jon Cone and to you, I am hoping that your 
responses will be helpful in clarifying these questions for me 
and for others, and contribute to our shared understanding.

Cheers,
James

Can you help out a relative newbie here.  What is DSS syndrome?
 
Thanks,
 
Bob Kramer

-----Original Message-----
From: James Lerager <JLerager@...> [mailto:JLerager@...]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 4:37 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Permanence - Paul Roark


Hi Paul,

I am about to switch inks from the original Piezo/Sundance. I am 
planning on replacing them with either Piezotones, or a blend of 
MIS FS-N (80%) & FS (20%) inks. I am concerned with ink/print 
permanence -- also about DSS syndrome (which my current 
1160 now exhibits). I still feel more than disappointed by Jon 
Cone's claims about the original Piezo/Sundance inks, in 
contrast to the "reality" so many of us experienced.

I have read Jon Cone's published accelerated-aging tests of 
Piezotone inks in comparison with MIS FS inks, and his claims 
of under 2% fading of Piezotone, vs. a 17% fading, accompanied 
by significant color shift, for FS inks.

I have noted a potential short-coming of Cone's tests:
That Cone tested Piezotone only against MIS FS, and not against 
FS-N. According to my reading of your own testing of FS and 
FS-N inks, the FS-N seemed more stable than FS.

If I remember correctly, when you did your own fade-tests of FS 
and FS-N, that you found only a 2% fade for FS-N and that FS-N 
is color/tone stable. This is very different than the 17% fade that 
Cone claims he found with FS ink. I recognize that Cone tested 
for a longer time, and perhaps also with a more intense light 
source. However, the 2% print-fade that you found with FS-N 
seems a reasonably acceptable standard for "permanence" to 
me, especially if the  color/tone of the print is also stable. For this 
reason, I'd like your current thoughts on this matter of fade and 
color/tone stability of FS-N ink. Is (in your opinion) FS-N in fact 
less subject to fading, and more color/tone-stable, than Cone is 
suggesting in his published ratings of MIS FS inks? Is Cone 
comparing apples and oranges by leaving FS-N out of his fading 
tests?

I am also concerned that the Piezotone inks may, in the future, 
lead to DSS or other problems affecting Epson print-heads. My 
understanding is that the MIS FS and FS-N inks have not 
exhibited clogging or DSS problems. Are you aware of any 
reports of DSS with the MIS FS and FS-N inks?

[I will be placing my backup/unused 1160 into service with the 
new inks, replacing my current 1160 (with its DSS symptoms). I 
hope that I will not encounter the infamous DSS syndrome in the 
future, so I do have concerns about Cone's inks (old and new), 
and the possible damage that they may cause to Epson 
print-heads in the longer run.]

With all respect to Jon Cone and to you, I am hoping that your 
responses will be helpful in clarifying these questions for me 
and for others, and contribute to our shared understanding.

Cheers,
James



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

James,

>...about to switch inks from the original Piezo/Sundance.
>.. replacing them with either Piezotones, or a blend of
>MIS FS-N (80%) & FS (20%) inks.

>...ink/print permanence

PiezoTone midtones are more lightfast than the FS and FS-N, although the FS
are better than the old PiezoBW/Sundance.

>... DSS syndrome

This is not a problem with either inkset as far as I know.

>I have read Jon Cone's published accelerated-aging tests of
>Piezotone inks in comparison with MIS FS inks, and his claims
>of under 2% fading of Piezotone, vs. a 17% fading, accompanied
>by significant color shift, for FS inks.

The tests appear to be valid.  From what I can tell, I think that the FS
inks do have a bit of dye in them.  This burns off quickly at first.  With
the FS, this causes both some fade and substantial warming.  The FS-N fades
just like the FS, but it does not warm.  So, visually, the FS-N would look
much better in these comparison tests.

Note that once the small amount of dye burns off, the remainder and bulk of
the FS inkset is pigment, which will be much more stable than the initial
warming/fading period might suggest.  That is, one cannot extrapolate the
initial dye burn-off to the long-term relative fade performance.  The fade
rate is not linear, it slows substantially with the FS inks.

(I'm now assuming the black FS-K from which the FS inks are mixed does have
some small amount of dye in it.  That is simply the best explanation for the
performance of the FS midtones.  Neither I nor, from what I'm told, MIS has
information from the manufacturer of the black ink about the dye content.)

>... FS-N is color/tone stable.

Yes.  It does fade at the same rate as the FS inks, however.  If you mix FS
and FS-N, you will get some warming due to the FS inks.

(Comparison of different fade tests is apples and oranges.  So, I'm avoiding
some of the numbers that have been mentioned.)

>...I'd like your current thoughts on this matter of fade and
>color/tone stability of FS-N ink. ...

I still use FS-N, which is reasonably stable and looks good for a long time.
That said, the new PiezoTone midtones raised the bar substantially.  When I
originally mixed the FS-N, it easily beat the PiezoBW.  At that time only
the Epson Archival inkset seemed to have an advantage, and it's metamerism
made it unusable.

Times have changed.  The PiezoTone midtones are excellent, as is the
UltraChrome inkset and it's ability to print reasonably good B&W.  When I
did comparison fade tests, I saw that the FS and VM inksets really were no
longer in the top performance category.

So, now I'm upgrading the inks I use.  An Epson Archival black-based inkset
(no metamerism in the black) is aimed at the high end of the neutral
Piezo-compatible inksets.  I hope that MIS will mix it, but that is their
decision, and I have not received any from them.  I'll mix it if I need to.
I think it will be the ultimate in ink permanence with today's technology,
and that is where I want to go.

Today, I'm fine-tuning a new VM inkset that is in the UltraChrome class.

The direction I'm going is pure pigment (no dyes at all and fade tests that
are consistent with this) and glossy-paper compatibility.  The two inksets
mentioned above are ready to go as soon as MIS puts them through its tests
and decides whether to mix then and when to release them.  A new vm-s that
is Epson Archival ink-based will be next.

So, in a few weeks there should be a full range of what I'd call "class A"
(in the 100 year and up range) inks out there for B&W printers.  Right now,
I don't think the FS or VM inks are in that class.  Technology has moved on.

>I am also concerned that the Piezotone inks may, in the future,
>lead to DSS or other problems affecting Epson print-heads. My
>understanding is that the MIS FS and FS-N inks have not
>exhibited clogging or DSS problems. Are you aware of any
>reports of DSS with the MIS FS and FS-N inks?

I can't speculate on future ink performance.  I am told by MIS that they
have a number of tests that avoid some of the problems that other inks have
had.  However, this could be competitive puffing, and I don't want to get in
the middle of that.  With any new product, there is some risk of
unanticipated problems.  Reputations and track records are obviously
important in this respect.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Thanks for the thorough post, as usual.  So from your experience the black
ink is the only problem with the quads on semi-gloss/luster finish papers?
If that's true one could use the piezotones with the Epson Archival Black
ink and be ok on Epson luster, etc.?  This would be a fantastic option for
desktop printers...almost as convenient as the 2200.  You could then use
Cone's Museum black or the Ultrachrome matte black on matte papers for
better matte paper dmax. I've worked for sometime with a CIS for grays and
then using a single cart for the black in the 1280...its easy to flip
between blacks that way.  What's even better...with the new Inkjet Control
Software I could simply load the Epson Archival Black into one channel and
Piezotone Museum Black into another channel and call them up at will...this
would certainly be a significant move forward!

Robert

On 1/17/03 3:05 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> James,
> 
>> ...about to switch inks from the original Piezo/Sundance.
>> .. replacing them with either Piezotones, or a blend of
>> MIS FS-N (80%) & FS (20%) inks.
> 
>> ...ink/print permanence
> 
> PiezoTone midtones are more lightfast than the FS and FS-N, although the FS
> are better than the old PiezoBW/Sundance.
> 
>> ... DSS syndrome
> 
> This is not a problem with either inkset as far as I know.
> 
>> I have read Jon Cone's published accelerated-aging tests of
>> Piezotone inks in comparison with MIS FS inks, and his claims
>> of under 2% fading of Piezotone, vs. a 17% fading, accompanied
>> by significant color shift, for FS inks.
> 
> The tests appear to be valid.  From what I can tell, I think that the FS
> inks do have a bit of dye in them.  This burns off quickly at first.  With
> the FS, this causes both some fade and substantial warming.  The FS-N fades
> just like the FS, but it does not warm.  So, visually, the FS-N would look
> much better in these comparison tests.
> 
> Note that once the small amount of dye burns off, the remainder and bulk of
> the FS inkset is pigment, which will be much more stable than the initial
> warming/fading period might suggest.  That is, one cannot extrapolate the
> initial dye burn-off to the long-term relative fade performance.  The fade
> rate is not linear, it slows substantially with the FS inks.
> 
> (I'm now assuming the black FS-K from which the FS inks are mixed does have
> some small amount of dye in it.  That is simply the best explanation for the
> performance of the FS midtones.  Neither I nor, from what I'm told, MIS has
> information from the manufacturer of the black ink about the dye content.)
> 
>> ... FS-N is color/tone stable.
> 
> Yes.  It does fade at the same rate as the FS inks, however.  If you mix FS
> and FS-N, you will get some warming due to the FS inks.
> 
> (Comparison of different fade tests is apples and oranges.  So, I'm avoiding
> some of the numbers that have been mentioned.)
> 
>> ...I'd like your current thoughts on this matter of fade and
>> color/tone stability of FS-N ink. ...
> 
> I still use FS-N, which is reasonably stable and looks good for a long time.
> That said, the new PiezoTone midtones raised the bar substantially.  When I
> originally mixed the FS-N, it easily beat the PiezoBW.  At that time only
> the Epson Archival inkset seemed to have an advantage, and it's metamerism
> made it unusable.
> 
> Times have changed.  The PiezoTone midtones are excellent, as is the
> UltraChrome inkset and it's ability to print reasonably good B&W.  When I
> did comparison fade tests, I saw that the FS and VM inksets really were no
> longer in the top performance category.
> 
> So, now I'm upgrading the inks I use.  An Epson Archival black-based inkset
> (no metamerism in the black) is aimed at the high end of the neutral
> Piezo-compatible inksets.  I hope that MIS will mix it, but that is their
> decision, and I have not received any from them.  I'll mix it if I need to.
> I think it will be the ultimate in ink permanence with today's technology,
> and that is where I want to go.
> 
> Today, I'm fine-tuning a new VM inkset that is in the UltraChrome class.
> 
> The direction I'm going is pure pigment (no dyes at all and fade tests that
> are consistent with this) and glossy-paper compatibility.  The two inksets
> mentioned above are ready to go as soon as MIS puts them through its tests
> and decides whether to mix then and when to release them.  A new vm-s that
> is Epson Archival ink-based will be next.
> 
> So, in a few weeks there should be a full range of what I'd call "class A"
> (in the 100 year and up range) inks out there for B&W printers.  Right now,
> I don't think the FS or VM inks are in that class.  Technology has moved on.
> 
>> I am also concerned that the Piezotone inks may, in the future,
>> lead to DSS or other problems affecting Epson print-heads. My
>> understanding is that the MIS FS and FS-N inks have not
>> exhibited clogging or DSS problems. Are you aware of any
>> reports of DSS with the MIS FS and FS-N inks?
> 
> I can't speculate on future ink performance.  I am told by MIS that they
> have a number of tests that avoid some of the problems that other inks have
> had.  However, this could be competitive puffing, and I don't want to get in
> the middle of that.  With any new product, there is some risk of
> unanticipated problems.  Reputations and track records are obviously
> important in this respect.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

Paul, have you seen any results of the piezotone COOL inks yet?

Jerry



Paul Roark wrote:

> 
> James,
> 
> >...about to switch inks from the original Piezo/Sundance.
> >.. replacing them with either Piezotones, or a blend of
> >MIS FS-N (80%) & FS (20%) inks.
> 
> >...ink/print permanence
> 
> PiezoTone midtones are more lightfast than the FS and FS-N, although the FS
> are better than the old PiezoBW/Sundance.
> 
> >... DSS syndrome
> 
> This is not a problem with either inkset as far as I know.
> 
> >I have read Jon Cone's published accelerated-aging tests of
> >Piezotone inks in comparison with MIS FS inks, and his claims
> >of under 2% fading of Piezotone, vs. a 17% fading, accompanied
> >by significant color shift, for FS inks.
> 
> The tests appear to be valid.  From what I can tell, I think that the FS
> inks do have a bit of dye in them.  This burns off quickly at first.  With
> the FS, this causes both some fade and substantial warming.  The FS-N fades
> just like the FS, but it does not warm.  So, visually, the FS-N would look
> much better in these comparison tests.
> 
> Note that once the small amount of dye burns off, the remainder and bulk of
> the FS inkset is pigment, which will be much more stable than the initial
> warming/fading period might suggest.  That is, one cannot extrapolate the
> initial dye burn-off to the long-term relative fade performance.  The fade
> rate is not linear, it slows substantially with the FS inks.
> 
> (I'm now assuming the black FS-K from which the FS inks are mixed does have
> some small amount of dye in it.  That is simply the best explanation for the
> performance of the FS midtones.  Neither I nor, from what I'm told, MIS has
> information from the manufacturer of the black ink about the dye content.)
> 
> >... FS-N is color/tone stable.
> 
> Yes.  It does fade at the same rate as the FS inks, however.  If you mix FS
> and FS-N, you will get some warming due to the FS inks.
> 
> (Comparison of different fade tests is apples and oranges.  So, I'm avoiding
> some of the numbers that have been mentioned.)
> 
> >...I'd like your current thoughts on this matter of fade and
> >color/tone stability of FS-N ink. ...
> 
> I still use FS-N, which is reasonably stable and looks good for a long time.
> That said, the new PiezoTone midtones raised the bar substantially.  When I
> originally mixed the FS-N, it easily beat the PiezoBW.  At that time only
> the Epson Archival inkset seemed to have an advantage, and it's metamerism
> made it unusable.
> 
> Times have changed.  The PiezoTone midtones are excellent, as is the
> UltraChrome inkset and it's ability to print reasonably good B&W.  When I
> did comparison fade tests, I saw that the FS and VM inksets really were no
> longer in the top performance category.
> 
> So, now I'm upgrading the inks I use.  An Epson Archival black-based inkset
> (no metamerism in the black) is aimed at the high end of the neutral
> Piezo-compatible inksets.  I hope that MIS will mix it, but that is their
> decision, and I have not received any from them.  I'll mix it if I need to.
> I think it will be the ultimate in ink permanence with today's technology,
> and that is where I want to go.
> 
> Today, I'm fine-tuning a new VM inkset that is in the UltraChrome class.
> 
> The direction I'm going is pure pigment (no dyes at all and fade tests that
> are consistent with this) and glossy-paper compatibility.  The two inksets
> mentioned above are ready to go as soon as MIS puts them through its tests
> and decides whether to mix then and when to release them.  A new vm-s that
> is Epson Archival ink-based will be next.
> 
> So, in a few weeks there should be a full range of what I'd call "class A"
> (in the 100 year and up range) inks out there for B&W printers.  Right now,
> I don't think the FS or VM inks are in that class.  Technology has moved on.
> 
> >I am also concerned that the Piezotone inks may, in the future,
> >lead to DSS or other problems affecting Epson print-heads. My
> >understanding is that the MIS FS and FS-N inks have not
> >exhibited clogging or DSS problems. Are you aware of any
> >reports of DSS with the MIS FS and FS-N inks?
> 
> I can't speculate on future ink performance.  I am told by MIS that they
> have a number of tests that avoid some of the problems that other inks have
> had.  However, this could be competitive puffing, and I don't want to get in
> the middle of that.  With any new product, there is some risk of
> unanticipated problems.  Reputations and track records are obviously
> important in this respect.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Robert,

>...  So from your experience the black
>ink is the only problem with the quads on
>semi-gloss/luster finish papers?

No, all the inks have to be RC paper-compatible.  The older pigmented quad
inksets just don't work well on RC paper.

With the new inksets I'm currently experimenting with, all the midtones,
including the VM toner, are RC-compatible.  (For the variable-tone inkset
I'm using MIS's UltraChrome clones, which have a nice, warm, pure carbon
light black; for the Piezo-compatible one I'm using Epson Archival black
pigment.)  However, just like the UltraChrome situation, there is just no
black that is good for both RC and matte papers.  So, we have to play the
black ink switching game, which is too bad.

> ... I've worked for sometime with a CIS for grays and
>then using a single cart for the black in the 1280...

That could be an interesting way to go with these.

I really don't think I'll be using RC papers, but I know some like them, and
the dmax is significant.  The Epson Archival black on Premium Luster hits
2.2 in the 7500 and 2.0 in the 1160.

My main interest in the Epson Archival inks, however, has almost nothing to
do with RC papers -- it's their extremely good longevity rating.  I think
encapsulating the carbon is a major advance, which is also one reason I was
and remain interested in coating.  With our post-printing coatings, however,
I'm inclined to think the coating is not getting around the pigment
particles.  Unfortunately, I have not yet figured out any (affordable) way
to test it.  These crude light-box faders keep the pigments moisture-free
just from the heat of the lamp -- not a viable way to test for the
effectiveness of coatings.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Jerry,

I have not seen the PiezoTone cool inks.  I think Jon published a fade test
of them that was not quite as impressive as the warm-neutral or selenium,
but still very good.  Frankly, if you're happy with the vm inks,  I'm not
sure how much paying more for longer-lived midtones gets you if you are
using the hybrid Enhanced black.  Your existing midtone inks should outlast
that black ink anyway.

Paul
____________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 7:48 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Permanence - Paul Roark


  Paul, have you seen any results of the piezotone COOL inks yet?

  Jerry



  Paul Roark wrote:
  >
  > James,
  >
  > >...about to switch inks from the original Piezo/Sundance.
  > >.. replacing them with either Piezotones, or a blend of
  > >MIS FS-N (80%) & FS (20%) inks.
  >
  > >...ink/print permanence
  >
  > PiezoTone midtones are more lightfast than the FS and FS-N, although the
FS
  > are better than the old PiezoBW/Sundance.
  >
  > >... DSS syndrome
  >
  > This is not a problem with either inkset as far as I know.
  >
  > >I have read Jon Cone's published accelerated-aging tests of
  > >Piezotone inks in comparison with MIS FS inks, and his claims
  > >of under 2% fading of Piezotone, vs. a 17% fading, accompanied
  > >by significant color shift, for FS inks.
  >
  > The tests appear to be valid.  From what I can tell, I think that the FS
  > inks do have a bit of dye in them.  This burns off quickly at first.
With
  > the FS, this causes both some fade and substantial warming.  The FS-N
fades
  > just like the FS, but it does not warm.  So, visually, the FS-N would
look
  > much better in these comparison tests.
  >
  > Note that once the small amount of dye burns off, the remainder and bulk
of
  > the FS inkset is pigment, which will be much more stable than the
initial
  > warming/fading period might suggest.  That is, one cannot extrapolate
the
  > initial dye burn-off to the long-term relative fade performance.  The
fade
  > rate is not linear, it slows substantially with the FS inks.
  >
  > (I'm now assuming the black FS-K from which the FS inks are mixed does
have
  > some small amount of dye in it.  That is simply the best explanation for
the
  > performance of the FS midtones.  Neither I nor, from what I'm told, MIS
has
  > information from the manufacturer of the black ink about the dye
content.)
  >
  > >... FS-N is color/tone stable.
  >
  > Yes.  It does fade at the same rate as the FS inks, however.  If you mix
FS
  > and FS-N, you will get some warming due to the FS inks.
  >
  > (Comparison of different fade tests is apples and oranges.  So, I'm
avoiding
  > some of the numbers that have been mentioned.)
  >
  > >...I'd like your current thoughts on this matter of fade and
  > >color/tone stability of FS-N ink. ...
  >
  > I still use FS-N, which is reasonably stable and looks good for a long
time.
  > That said, the new PiezoTone midtones raised the bar substantially.
When I
  > originally mixed the FS-N, it easily beat the PiezoBW.  At that time
only
  > the Epson Archival inkset seemed to have an advantage, and it's
metamerism
  > made it unusable.
  >
  > Times have changed.  The PiezoTone midtones are excellent, as is the
  > UltraChrome inkset and it's ability to print reasonably good B&W.  When
I
  > did comparison fade tests, I saw that the FS and VM inksets really were
no
  > longer in the top performance category.
  >
  > So, now I'm upgrading the inks I use.  An Epson Archival black-based
inkset
  > (no metamerism in the black) is aimed at the high end of the neutral
  > Piezo-compatible inksets.  I hope that MIS will mix it, but that is
their
  > decision, and I have not received any from them.  I'll mix it if I need
to.
  > I think it will be the ultimate in ink permanence with today's
technology,
  > and that is where I want to go.
  >
  > Today, I'm fine-tuning a new VM inkset that is in the UltraChrome class.
  >
  > The direction I'm going is pure pigment (no dyes at all and fade tests
that
  > are consistent with this) and glossy-paper compatibility.  The two
inksets
  > mentioned above are ready to go as soon as MIS puts them through its
tests
  > and decides whether to mix then and when to release them.  A new vm-s
that
  > is Epson Archival ink-based will be next.
  >
  > So, in a few weeks there should be a full range of what I'd call "class
A"
  > (in the 100 year and up range) inks out there for B&W printers.  Right
now,
  > I don't think the FS or VM inks are in that class.  Technology has moved
on.
  >
  > >I am also concerned that the Piezotone inks may, in the future,
  > >lead to DSS or other problems affecting Epson print-heads. My
  > >understanding is that the MIS FS and FS-N inks have not
  > >exhibited clogging or DSS problems. Are you aware of any
  > >reports of DSS with the MIS FS and FS-N inks?
  >
  > I can't speculate on future ink performance.  I am told by MIS that they
  > have a number of tests that avoid some of the problems that other inks
have
  > had.  However, this could be competitive puffing, and I don't want to
get in
  > the middle of that.  With any new product, there is some risk of
  > unanticipated problems.  Reputations and track records are obviously
  > important in this respect.
  >
  > Paul
  > http://www.PaulRoark.com
  >
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