Digital BW, The Print

maybe I've missed this, so pardon any obviousness related to the 
question, but what is the difference b/t hue and tone (warm, cool, 
neutral)?

thanks.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@h...]
> > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 10:31 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin 
Wesley"
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@h...]
> > > > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 1:36 PM
> > > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
> > > >
> > >
> > > Roy,
> > >
> > > You may recall the 7600 samples of the Septones I showed you at 
the SF
> > > meeting. The hue of the prints looked very good but some of the
> > PixelPicasso
> > > wedges were only okay but not as good as others varying with
> > how the inks
> > > were blended by the software. The 2200 wedges they sent me are
> > actually much
> > > better but not all are as smooth as I would like to see.
> >
> > Yes, I remember the prints.  The hues changes were kind of
> > extreme so that it
> > was obvious to see.
> 
> I doubt any one photographer would use the extreme tonal range the 
inks can
> cover. Same seems to be true for the VM sets as well. From my 
impression of
> the Septone samples I would probably use around a 60/40 blend. 
Something
> like 55/45 shadows, 60/40 midtones, 65/35 highlights. Impossible to 
know
> without trying but varying hue in the print should be subtle.
> 
> So I could actually get along with two sets of grays that were much 
closer
> together in hue. Obviously this doesn't work from a marketing point 
of view
> though.
> 
> > But the more I think about this septone
> > idea the more
> > skeptical I become.  I think Shilesh also hit upon the issue --
> > warm/cool is
> > only one dimension of the color variations you might want.   I
> > like to think of
> > it like the LAB space.  B gives you the yellow/blue or warm/cool
> > dimension but
> > A which is red/green is equally as important.  This gives you the
> > magenta or
> > eggplant hues that careful selenium toning can give in a silver
> > print.  I think
> > this is the effect I most miss.  I've always disliked the
> > olive-like tone of some
> > silver papers and selenium toning solved that.
> 
> I agree with you. For some reason the grayscale inks have gotten 
hooked on a
> color variation that predominantly shifts on a blue - yellow axis. 
Being
> able to shift hue on two axis would be better. If I had to choose 
though I
> think I would rather be able to shift on one hue axis and be able 
control
> that shift separately in different tonal ranges than to have two 
hue axis
> that effect the entire tonal ranges equally.
> 
> Of course not everyone wants a change in hue across the tonal range 
of a
> print. In traditional silver printing many people try for the most 
neutral
> print they can sometime not toning at all to avoid hue splits.
> 
> >  Likewise I think
> > many of the
> > carbon inks give me that olive look sometimes and warm/cool
> > doesn't fix it.
> 
> Definitely.
> >
> > >
> (snip)
> > >
> > > Do you think that coming up with curve sets that varied two
> > sets of gray 3
> > > gray inks over highs, mids and lows could be handled by 
QuadTone?
> >
> > I think there's a risk of making things too complicated, but sure
> > if you can
> > mathematically describe it, it can be programmed.  I might be 
inclined to
> > put it into the curve generation phase instead of run time driver 
phase.
> 
> The math would seem to be straight forward since for any given 
point on the
> tonal ramp you are simple describing the ratio of warm/cool ink to 
lay down
> in addition to the ratio of the two adjacent gray positions. The 
logic would
> be for tones 100 to 66 use a ratio of x1/y1 warm/cool grays, from 
65 to 33
> use a ration of x2/y2 warm/cool grays, etc. You could have just two 
zones or
> perhaps 4.
> 
> In a sense I could see doing this on the fly as R9 seems to have 
done. The
> problem here is that it does get complicated and linearity may 
suffer. In
> fact it does to some extent judging from the samples I have. With 
QuadTone
> you could linearize any particular set of ratios for your 
printer/paper
> which you can't do with the Septones software.
> >
> >    Or say a
> > > VM set with 3 toners over three ranges?
> >
> > The mind starts to boggle with the possibilities.  My
> > inclination, if you want
> > maximum flexibility, would be a set of 3 or 4 grays that are the
> > purest, no
> > color pigment set.  Then maybe 2 or 3 toners whose colors are 
specifically
> > a "desirable" color like sepia or eggplant.  You would design 
curves that
> > used only small amounts of these tones to vary the gray output.  
You
> > could use generic CMY for the toners but it might be trickier to 
balance
> > two different toners.  Who knows?  I'm starting to think I may 
have to
> > get a 2200 for ink experimentation.
> 
> I am inclined to agree with you. Being able to infinitely vary the 
hue
> sounds nice on the surface but practically too many options become
> overwhelming. Two toner positions sounds good and if there were 
several
> toner pairs available photographers could choose the hue axis they 
wanted to
> work along.
> 
> The 2200 with its small separate cartridges looks like it would be 
the ideal
> test bed for trying different inks.
> 
> Another question that comes to mind is which approach, Septone or 
VM, puts
> more non-carbon pigment onto the print?
> 
> Martin
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html