Digital BW, The Print

Hello Group!

Sorry for me absence during the past couple of months, but we have 
been extremely busy with the development of several new product 
lines and a big move into our new facility. (Which as a side note, 
has an awesome print and research/development room decked out with 
some incredible equipment)

I just want to let everyone know that Septone for the 2200 is now a 
reality! We have been using it in-house for several months now, and 
we are thoroughly impressed. It finally brings all of our long-
awaited 'printing-wishes' together for the 2200 including a variable 
tone inkset, a simple set of sliders in the software allow for 
custom mixes from warm to cool or combinations like warm highlights 
and cool shadows for example. The all new Septone plug-in is both 
Windows and Mac compatible including OSX - no need for classic mode. 
We have finished profiling over 50+ papers including our new Moab 
Entrada line, so no special curves or additional workflows will be 
needed. The black is a lot stronger than previous ink sets too - 
without any added dyes. 

It will be available in both prefilled carts and Niagara systems 
which we expect to begin shipping Aug 25. 

We are taking preorders and we already anticipate that we will have 
to increase production just based on the preorders already received.

If you would like a preprinted sample, just fill out the form at:
http://inkjetgoodies.com/main/septone_survey.htm

There is also tons more information here:
http://inkjetgoodies.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?
Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=IG&Category_Code=I11

You can feel free to contact me off list if necessary at 
info@... and I will try to keep an eye out for any 
questions on the list.

Happy Printing!!

Gregory Schern
RedRock Innovations Inc., President

InkjetGoodies.com (http://inkjetgoodies.com)
Moab Paper Co.

We have gotten dozens of emails with people asking what papers are 
currently profiled for Septone and the 2200, so I've included a list 
below. Please note that if your favorite isn't in the list, we can 
consider adding it, just drop us an email.

Arches Bright White
Arches Cold Pres
Arches Hot Press
Arches Infinity Smooth*
Arches Infinity Textured*
Concord Rag*
Crane Museo*
Crescent Cold Press Watercolor 310
Crescent Satin 255
Crescent Velvet 250
Entrada Fine Art 190*
Entrada Fine Art 300*
Entrada Fine Art 190 Natural*
Entrada Fine Art 300 Natural*
Epson Enhanced Matte*
Epson Heavyweight Matte*
Epson Premium Luster Photo*
Epson Premium Semimatte Photo*
Epson Somerset Velvet 505*
Epson Textured Fine Art 225*
Epson Textured Fine Art 425*
Epson UltraSmooth Fine Art 205
Epson UltraSmooth Fine Art 250
Epson UltraSmooth Fine Art 500
Fine Art Canvas Glossy
Fine Art Canvas Matte
Hahnemuhle 230
Hahnemuhle Albrecht Durer 210
Hahnemuhle Bugra German Antique 140
Hahnemuhle Bugra Natural White 140
Hahnemuhle German Etching 310*
Hahnemuhle Linen 150
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 188*
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308*
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 460*
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Duo 196*
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Duo 316*
Hahnemuhle Structure 150
Hahnemuhle Torchon 285
Hahnemuhle William Turner 190*
Hahnemuhle William Turner 310*
Kokopelli Photo Gloss*
Kokopelli Photo Satin*
Legion Photo Glossy*
Legion Photo Matte*
Schoellershammer Linen 225
Schoellershammer Linen 300
Schoellershammer Velvet 225
Schoellershammer Velvet 300
Somerset Photo Enhanced Textured*
Somerset Photo Enhanced Velvet*
Somerset Velvet

* available from inkjetgoodies.com

> Happy Printing!!
> 
> Gregory Schern
> RedRock Innovations Inc., President
> 
> InkjetGoodies.com (http://inkjetgoodies.com)
> Moab Paper Co.

Any idea how realistic it is to swap back and forth on a 2200 between Epson
UC inks and the septone inks?

tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gregory Schern [mailto:gschern@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:24 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Papers Profiled in Septone
>
>
> We have gotten dozens of emails with people asking what papers are
> currently profiled for Septone and the 2200, so I've included a list
> below. Please note that if your favorite isn't in the list, we can
> consider adding it, just drop us an email.
>
> Arches Bright White
> Arches Cold Pres
> Arches Hot Press
> Arches Infinity Smooth*
> Arches Infinity Textured*
> Concord Rag*
> Crane Museo*
> Crescent Cold Press Watercolor 310
> Crescent Satin 255
> Crescent Velvet 250
> Entrada Fine Art 190*
> Entrada Fine Art 300*
> Entrada Fine Art 190 Natural*
> Entrada Fine Art 300 Natural*
> Epson Enhanced Matte*
> Epson Heavyweight Matte*
> Epson Premium Luster Photo*
> Epson Premium Semimatte Photo*
> Epson Somerset Velvet 505*
> Epson Textured Fine Art 225*
> Epson Textured Fine Art 425*
> Epson UltraSmooth Fine Art 205
> Epson UltraSmooth Fine Art 250
> Epson UltraSmooth Fine Art 500
> Fine Art Canvas Glossy
> Fine Art Canvas Matte
> Hahnemuhle 230
> Hahnemuhle Albrecht Durer 210
> Hahnemuhle Bugra German Antique 140
> Hahnemuhle Bugra Natural White 140
> Hahnemuhle German Etching 310*
> Hahnemuhle Linen 150
> Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 188*
> Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308*
> Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 460*
> Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Duo 196*
> Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Duo 316*
> Hahnemuhle Structure 150
> Hahnemuhle Torchon 285
> Hahnemuhle William Turner 190*
> Hahnemuhle William Turner 310*
> Kokopelli Photo Gloss*
> Kokopelli Photo Satin*
> Legion Photo Glossy*
> Legion Photo Matte*
> Schoellershammer Linen 225
> Schoellershammer Linen 300
> Schoellershammer Velvet 225
> Schoellershammer Velvet 300
> Somerset Photo Enhanced Textured*
> Somerset Photo Enhanced Velvet*
> Somerset Velvet
>
> * available from inkjetgoodies.com
>
> > Happy Printing!!
> >
> > Gregory Schern
> > RedRock Innovations Inc., President
> >
> > InkjetGoodies.com (http://inkjetgoodies.com)
> > Moab Paper Co.
>
>
>
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So have I got this right?

The Septone system is basically a seven ink (warm/cool) descendant of the
old Piezography system? With a driver for the Epson 2200 and a set of ink
cartridges (if you so choose) you can switch back and forth with between
Septone and say, original OEM Epson Ultrachrome colour?

tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Atherton [mailto:timatherton@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 10:01 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Septone system
>
>
> So have I got this right?
>
> The Septone system is basically a seven ink (warm/cool) descendant of the
> old Piezography system? With a driver for the Epson 2200 and a set of ink
> cartridges (if you so choose) you can switch back and forth with between
> Septone and say, original OEM Epson Ultrachrome colour?
>
Tim,

The Septone inks and software for the 2200 are made by Sundance Inks and R9
Software the developers and the manufacturers of the original Piezo inks and
the Piezo plugin. These are a new formula of inks that were corrected to
eliminate the original problems of the original inks. I gather they are
similar to the Piezotones and MIS-FN chemically. They did RIT testing and
they are predicting a display life of over 100 years at 450 lux 12 hours per
day for what that is worth.

The Septone system includes a neutral black ink, 3 warm gray inks and 3 cool
gray inks. There is no color ink used. The software is an advanced version
of the Piezo/R9 plug-in which allows you to control the ratio of warm to
cool gray inks in the three major tonal areas of the print. Shadows, mid
tones and high lights. With sliders you can set the shadows to say 75/25
W/C, the mid tones 50/50 and the highlights 72/28 all in 1% increments!
Mathematically that works out to 1,000,000 combinations. From the samples I
have this gives you a really incredible ranges of hues that you can achieve
in a print.

If you look at silver fiber prints you will find that the hue of the print
varies with tone. So you have prints with say subtly cool shadows and warm
highlights. I think this chromatic complexity results in a print that is
much richer looking since the variation in hue allows the human eye to more
easily differentiate adjacent tones. I have been using Selenium Piezotone
ink because it has a good deal of this going on. The ability to vary this
effect is very appealing. This is essentially the new version of the old
plug-in software.

Check out their website at:

http://www.bwguys.com/

They will not appreciate me saying this but since the ink densities of the
two gray sets are the same as the Piezotone and the MIS-FS ink sets I have
to wonder if the software will not work with these gray inks as well. Say
Warm Neutral and Selenium Piezotone grays or MIS-FS and FSN?

I also wonder if Roy could not add this ability to QuadTone RIP. You would
just need more curves that only effected narrow tonal ranges.

You could certainly switch back and forth between the Septone and UC
cartridges but from the experiences people have had in the past this is
extremely wasteful of ink. If you did this on a regular basis I suspect that
the cost of your ink losses might pay for a second 2200 in time.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:

> 
> They will not appreciate me saying this but since the ink densities of the
> two gray sets are the same as the Piezotone and the MIS-FS ink sets I have
> to wonder if the software will not work with these gray inks as well. Say
> Warm Neutral and Selenium Piezotone grays or MIS-FS and FSN?

Martin,

I guess its not too surprising that they are using the same ink densities --
with 4 inks (black + 3 grays) there's going to be a fairly obvious optimum
set of densities. Not to mention they developed the original piezo quads.

I wonder how the inks themselves compare in permanence and color etc.

> 
> I also wonder if Roy could not add this ability to QuadTone RIP. You would
> just need more curves that only effected narrow tonal ranges.

The current blending is pretty basic -- just one blend percentage.  But 
adding one or two more and sliding the percentage wouldn't be too
difficult.  The ultimate would be to allow a curve that would allow any mix.
This would ensure smooth transitions of tonal changes.

> 
> You could certainly switch back and forth between the Septone and UC
> cartridges but from the experiences people have had in the past this is
> extremely wasteful of ink. If you did this on a regular basis I suspect that
> the cost of your ink losses might pay for a second 2200 in time.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Roy
www.harrington.com

Hello Martin,

You bring up very good points.  I am not fully up to speed with the 
Septone system, but I understand that the current ink line up is warm 
and cool.  The PiezoTone approach perhaps shows greater color depth, 
in that the shadows are not really cool or warm, rather they are the 
eggplant magenta.  I am not sure that the Septone inkset can create 
such complexity.  It would be fun to play around modifying inks to 
suit our own preference.  I am definitely considering the system for 
my own use, just as much for this new versatility as for the faster 
printing speeds of the 2200 compared to my 1280.  Q: Is the Septone 
driver for the 2200 fast?

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tim Atherton [mailto:timatherton@t...]
> > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 10:01 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Septone system
> >
> >
> > So have I got this right?
> >
> > The Septone system is basically a seven ink (warm/cool) 
descendant of the
> > old Piezography system? With a driver for the Epson 2200 and a 
set of ink
> > cartridges (if you so choose) you can switch back and forth with 
between
> > Septone and say, original OEM Epson Ultrachrome colour?
> >
> Tim,
> 
> The Septone inks and software for the 2200 are made by Sundance 
Inks and R9
> Software the developers and the manufacturers of the original Piezo 
inks and
> the Piezo plugin. These are a new formula of inks that were 
corrected to
> eliminate the original problems of the original inks. I gather they 
are
> similar to the Piezotones and MIS-FN chemically. They did RIT 
testing and
> they are predicting a display life of over 100 years at 450 lux 12 
hours per
> day for what that is worth.
> 
> The Septone system includes a neutral black ink, 3 warm gray inks 
and 3 cool
> gray inks. There is no color ink used. The software is an advanced 
version
> of the Piezo/R9 plug-in which allows you to control the ratio of 
warm to
> cool gray inks in the three major tonal areas of the print. 
Shadows, mid
> tones and high lights. With sliders you can set the shadows to say 
75/25
> W/C, the mid tones 50/50 and the highlights 72/28 all in 1% 
increments!
> Mathematically that works out to 1,000,000 combinations. From the 
samples I
> have this gives you a really incredible ranges of hues that you can 
achieve
> in a print.
> 
> If you look at silver fiber prints you will find that the hue of 
the print
> varies with tone. So you have prints with say subtly cool shadows 
and warm
> highlights. I think this chromatic complexity results in a print 
that is
> much richer looking since the variation in hue allows the human eye 
to more
> easily differentiate adjacent tones. I have been using Selenium 
Piezotone
> ink because it has a good deal of this going on. The ability to 
vary this
> effect is very appealing. This is essentially the new version of 
the old
> plug-in software.
> 
> Check out their website at:
> 
> http://www.bwguys.com/
> 
> They will not appreciate me saying this but since the ink densities 
of the
> two gray sets are the same as the Piezotone and the MIS-FS ink sets 
I have
> to wonder if the software will not work with these gray inks as 
well. Say
> Warm Neutral and Selenium Piezotone grays or MIS-FS and FSN?
> 
> I also wonder if Roy could not add this ability to QuadTone RIP. 
You would
> just need more curves that only effected narrow tonal ranges.
> 
> You could certainly switch back and forth between the Septone and UC
> cartridges but from the experiences people have had in the past 
this is
> extremely wasteful of ink. If you did this on a regular basis I 
suspect that

> the cost of your ink losses might pay for a second 2200 in time.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Martin,

>The Septone inks and software for the 2200 are made by Sundance Inks and R9
>Software ...

>The Septone system includes a neutral black ink, 3 warm gray inks and 3
cool
>gray inks. There is no color ink used. ...

Well, there are certainly color pigments (I hope -- and not dyes) used to
tone the carbon inks, especially the cool inks.

One question is whether the warm inks are also toned.

How warm is the warm Septone ink?  Is it about like the FS/PiezoBW, more
like the Ultra Tone warm end (plain grays), or warmer than the UT warm/gray
inks?  If it is warmer than the UT grays, then yellow and magenta are
probably used to get it there.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shilesh Jani [mailto:shilesh.jani@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 4:16 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Septone system
>
>
> Hello Martin,
>
> You bring up very good points.  I am not fully up to speed with the
> Septone system, but I understand that the current ink line up is warm
> and cool.  The PiezoTone approach perhaps shows greater color depth,
> in that the shadows are not really cool or warm, rather they are the
> eggplant magenta.  I am not sure that the Septone inkset can create
> such complexity.

Shilesh,

From the 7600 prints R9 sent me I would say they equal the hue complexity of
the Selenium Piezotones but let you control it with software. This interests
me a great deal because when I was making traditional silver fiber prints I
used Oriental as my main paper, Ilford Galleria and Kodak Fine Art as second
choices and occasionally other papers. I was not unusual to find that a
negative printed better on one paper than another. I think that in part this
may be due to the difference in hue. I also liked to vary the amount of
selenium toning I used.

The end result is that there is subtle variation between my silver prints
and I would like to have something similar with my inkjet prints. I
personally think that pure monochrome prints or large numbers of prints that
are identical in hue to be rather "flat" in feel. Very subjective I know but
I don't know how else to describe it.

What I felt would be the ultimate solution would be a VM or Variable Mix
approach with three toners. Small gamut (predominantly gray) toner inks
C,M,Y with a neutral black and 3 neutral grays. This would offer complete
control over the overall hue but does not address the issue of varying hue
independent of tone. You do get more chromatic variation from the VM
approach since the hue variation is obtained by pushing the toner ink down
into the black or letting it come up into the highlights but this has been
more of a side benefit than per plan.

Choice of paper also gives a big boost to chromatic complexity. The entire
issue became apparent in looking at prints by Peter Lindman done with the
original VM inks on Eclipse Bright White. The very bright tone and neutral
hue of the paper emphasized the varying hue within the ink set with the cyan
toner ink to produce a very rich print.

> It would be fun to play around modifying inks to
> suit our own preference.

Having played around with blending MIS-FS and MIS-FSN I am excited about a
system that lets you do this with software rather than physical mixing which
was a real pain.

>  I am definitely considering the system for
> my own use, just as much for this new versatility as for the faster
> printing speeds of the 2200 compared to my 1280.  Q: Is the Septone
> driver for the 2200 fast?

That I can't answer the speed question but you might try e-mailing R9 and
see what they have to say. If you hear back let us know.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 6:17 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Septone system
>
>
> Martin,
>
> >The Septone inks and software for the 2200 are made by Sundance
> Inks and R9
> >Software ...
>
> >The Septone system includes a neutral black ink, 3 warm gray inks and 3
> cool
> >gray inks. There is no color ink used. ...
>
> Well, there are certainly color pigments (I hope -- and not dyes) used to
> tone the carbon inks, especially the cool inks.
>
> One question is whether the warm inks are also toned.
>
> How warm is the warm Septone ink?  Is it about like the FS/PiezoBW, more
> like the Ultra Tone warm end (plain grays), or warmer than the UT
> warm/gray
> inks?  If it is warmer than the UT grays, then yellow and magenta are
> probably used to get it there.

Paul,

When I said there are no color inks used I just meant that there are no
C,Y,M inks in the any of the positions as in a color or VM ink set.

The samples I was sent which included examples of 100% warm and 100% cool
are comparable to the warm and cool versions of the Piezotones and the MIS
Full Spectrum. As to their exact components they have not said anything.
From their website, the cool inks had better longevity than the warm which
reminds me of the situation with the MIS FS inks. Without inside knowledge,
I would guess that they do not vary much from the other ink sets in regards
to the use of inorganic pigments but I can't say with any certainty.

I think I am mostly impressed by the software solution to on-the-fly ink
blending. The inks look good but do not seem to be substantially different
from the other carbon pigment gray scale inks on the market. The 2200
plug-in seems to be priced very well for people looking for a dedicated B&W
solution on the 2200 although a QuadTone RIP solution would be a tough price
to beat! <G>

When someone actually has this system up and running would you be willing to
do some comparative fade testing with the MIS UT inks? I could provide
standard wedges with Eboni and Selenium PiezoTone grays.

Martin
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

The next 6 months should be interesting ... so many possible choices:

Epson 2200 with Septone
Epson 2200 with IP 5.6
Epson 2200 with QTR2
Epson 2200 with IJC
Epson 2200 with MIS UT carts
Epson 2200 with custom mix MIS UT + UC carts

or 

an older Epson printer with PiezoTones
the new ICC PiezoTones (when they finally emerge)
Canon printer with ICC PiezoTones (when they finally emerge)
older Epson printer with MIS UT inks
older Epson printer with custom mixes of MIS UT or UT + UC inks

just to name a few.

Martin,

Given your experience with many of these choices, if you were entering digital B+W 
printing in 2003 and did not own a printer, which way would you go ????

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 1:36 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
>
> >
> > They will not appreciate me saying this but since the ink
> densities of the
> > two gray sets are the same as the Piezotone and the MIS-FS ink
> sets I have
> > to wonder if the software will not work with these gray inks as
> well. Say
> > Warm Neutral and Selenium Piezotone grays or MIS-FS and FSN?
>
> Martin,
>
> I guess its not too surprising that they are using the same ink
> densities --
> with 4 inks (black + 3 grays) there's going to be a fairly obvious optimum
> set of densities. Not to mention they developed the original piezo quads.
>
> I wonder how the inks themselves compare in permanence and color etc.

Roy,

You may recall the 7600 samples of the Septones I showed you at the SF
meeting. The hue of the prints looked very good but some of the PixelPicasso
wedges were only okay but not as good as others varying with how the inks
were blended by the software. The 2200 wedges they sent me are actually much
better but not all are as smooth as I would like to see.

As far as permanence we really need some comparative testing and I nope that
Paul can assist as his comparative testing of two or three ink sets in one
trial are the most useful. I have to give Sundance/R9 credit for actually
printing some of the results of their RIT testing. Only a side-by-side test
will suffice but I am hoping they are comparable to the PiezoTones or MIS FS
inks since they were developed in the same time frame.

Interestingly as far as I know none of the companies we talk about here
actually make any ink. They are all buying ink from unnamed manufacturers
blended to their specifications. I have to wonder if some of them are not
getting the ink from the same place.
>
> >
> > I also wonder if Roy could not add this ability to QuadTone
> RIP. You would
> > just need more curves that only effected narrow tonal ranges.
>
> The current blending is pretty basic -- just one blend percentage.  But
> adding one or two more and sliding the percentage wouldn't be too
> difficult.  The ultimate would be to allow a curve that would
> allow any mix.
> This would ensure smooth transitions of tonal changes.

Do you think that coming up with curve sets that varied two sets of gray 3
gray inks over highs, mids and lows could be handled by QuadTone? Or say a
VM set with 3 toners over three ranges?

Martin
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@h...]
> > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 1:36 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
> >
> 
> Roy,
> 
> You may recall the 7600 samples of the Septones I showed you at the SF
> meeting. The hue of the prints looked very good but some of the PixelPicasso
> wedges were only okay but not as good as others varying with how the inks
> were blended by the software. The 2200 wedges they sent me are actually much
> better but not all are as smooth as I would like to see.

Yes, I remember the prints.  The hues changes were kind of extreme so that it
was obvious to see.   But the more I think about this septone idea the more
skeptical I become.  I think Shilesh also hit upon the issue -- warm/cool is
only one dimension of the color variations you might want.   I like to think of
it like the LAB space.  B gives you the yellow/blue or warm/cool dimension but
A which is red/green is equally as important.  This gives you the magenta or
eggplant hues that careful selenium toning can give in a silver print.  I think
this is the effect I most miss.  I've always disliked the olive-like tone of some
silver papers and selenium toning solved that.  Likewise I think many of the
carbon inks give me that olive look sometimes and warm/cool doesn't fix it.

> 
> As far as permanence we really need some comparative testing and I nope that
> Paul can assist as his comparative testing of two or three ink sets in one
> trial are the most useful. I have to give Sundance/R9 credit for actually
> printing some of the results of their RIT testing. Only a side-by-side test
> will suffice but I am hoping they are comparable to the PiezoTones or MIS FS
> inks since they were developed in the same time frame.
> 
> Interestingly as far as I know none of the companies we talk about here
> actually make any ink. They are all buying ink from unnamed manufacturers
> blended to their specifications. I have to wonder if some of them are not
> getting the ink from the same place.

Probably so.

> >
> > >
> > > I also wonder if Roy could not add this ability to QuadTone
> > RIP. You would
> > > just need more curves that only effected narrow tonal ranges.
> >
> > The current blending is pretty basic -- just one blend percentage.  But
> > adding one or two more and sliding the percentage wouldn't be too
> > difficult.  The ultimate would be to allow a curve that would
> > allow any mix.
> > This would ensure smooth transitions of tonal changes.
> 
> Do you think that coming up with curve sets that varied two sets of gray 3
> gray inks over highs, mids and lows could be handled by QuadTone? 

I think there's a risk of making things too complicated, but sure if you can
mathematically describe it, it can be programmed.  I might be inclined to
put it into the curve generation phase instead of run time driver phase.

   Or say a
> VM set with 3 toners over three ranges?

The mind starts to boggle with the possibilities.  My inclination, if you want
maximum flexibility, would be a set of 3 or 4 grays that are the purest, no
color pigment set.  Then maybe 2 or 3 toners whose colors are specifically
a "desirable" color like sepia or eggplant.  You would design curves that
used only small amounts of these tones to vary the gray output.  You 
could use generic CMY for the toners but it might be trickier to balance
two different toners.  Who knows?  I'm starting to think I may have to
get a 2200 for ink experimentation.

> 
> Martin
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Roy
www.harrington.com

"The 2200 plug-in seems to be priced very well for people looking for 
a dedicated B&W solution on the 2200...."

Are we assuming that changing inks between the OEM Ultrachromes and 
that Septones will be impractical/impossible?  I'm intrigued by the 
Septones, but definitely will want to switch back and forth.  I 
realize this will waste ink b/c I have to run cleaning cycles when 
switching, so I won't be swtiching on a daily basis.  I'll probably 
just print all of my current at any given time b&w images, then print 
all the color ones.  But the guy I emailed at inkjetgoodies indicated 
that switching back and forth is certainly feasible.  Anyone else 
have thoughts on this?

You can easily switch back and forth.

When I switch from Ultrachromes to Ultratones it takes about three to
four normal cleaning cycles to get all the yellow ink out of the yellow
position. This wastes some ink, but since I fill from bottles which is
pretty cheap anyway I don't really mind.

When I switch back to color it takes one to two celaning cycles.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Martin,

The reason I was curious about how warm the Septone warm inks were is that
if there are coloring toners in it (which there would have to be if it was
warmer than the Ultra Tone ["UT"] grays), then its longevity would probably
be somewhat compromised.  From what I can tell, the new, pure carbon inks
are better than the color pigments that are used to do the toning.  For
example, I'd say the PiezoTone carbon/sepia is a toned ink.  According to
Jon Cone's latest lightfastness table the PT Carbon Sepia fades at about 3
times the rate of the PT warm Neutral, which probably has the least amount
of colorant in it.

So, what I've been saying is that the best ink is probably the ink that has
the highest percentage of carbon relative to the colorants.

My approach to this in the UT inkset is to have the gray inks be pure
carbon.  Then as they are toned cooler, the only colorant that is in them is
the minimum needed to get them to neutral -- or whatever tone is desired.
For reproductions of old photos, where the natural warm carbon tone is very
appropriate, that is probably the best also for maximum longevity.

Whether the toner is pre-mixed into the ink or in a separate toner would
probably not matter.  I suspect the primary issue is the percentage of the
image-forming substance that is color pigment as opposed to the best carbon
base.  The less color pigment, the better.

I want to get back to an inkset that has the full range of sepia to neutral.
To this, I think the best way to go (with current printers) is with a dual
toner set -- cool and sepia.  That way one doesn't have one toner having to
offset the toner that is pre-mixed into the base gray ink.

Assuming the Septone warm is not toned, then what are the advantages of its
approach over having a 2-chamber, stronger toner, like the UT inkset?

I think having 3 spots for the, in effect, cool toner, is wasting the 7-ink
printer's capabilities.  Two cool toners is enough to have dotless cool
tones, and that would leave a spot to have the sepia toner -- and one spot
is enough, as least when one is using the UT grays.

At any rate, it's just my opinion, based on theory more than practice.  I
have not used the Septone system, nor do I have the system I'm suggesting
might be a better approach.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
_____________________________________

>>>The Septone inks and software for the 2200 are made by Sundance
>>> Inks and R9 Software ...

>>>The Septone system includes a neutral black ink, 3 warm gray
>>>inks and 3 cool gray inks.  There is no color ink used. ...



>> Well, there are certainly color pigments (I hope -- and not dyes) used to
>> tone the carbon inks, especially the cool inks.

>> One question is whether the warm inks are also toned.

>> How warm is the warm Septone ink?  ...
>> If it is warmer than the UT grays, then yellow and magenta are
>> probably used to get it there.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> You can easily switch back and forth.
> 
> When I switch from Ultrachromes to Ultratones it takes about three 
to
> four normal cleaning cycles to get all the yellow ink out of the 
yellow
> position. This wastes some ink, but since I fill from bottles which 
is
> pretty cheap anyway I don't really mind.
> 
> When I switch back to color it takes one to two celaning cycles.


By "cleaning cycles," do you mean using cleaning cartridges to do 
this, or do you just run the Epson head cleaning utility via the 
Epson printer software?  (And where does one get cleaning cartridges, 
if that's needed?)

> By "cleaning cycles," do you mean using cleaning cartridges to do 
> this, or do you just run the Epson head cleaning utility via the 
> Epson printer software?  (And where does one get cleaning cartridges, 
> if that's needed?)

Just normal head cleanings. It's not neccessary to use cleaning
cartridges (at least not when switching between ultrachromes and
ultratones, I don't know about other ink types).

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

If I correctly understand the threads I've been recently reading, I 
should be able to use the 1290 UT curves on the 2200 and get good 
results (assuming some tweaking, of course). Assuming that moving 
back and forth between hand-filled UT carts and the Ultrachromes is 
not a problem, then the using the 2200 for both color and BW is an 
attractive path. Indeed, if the 1290 UT curves work as well on the 
2200 as Paul's curves work on the 1160, then I'll probably be buying 
a 2200 sometime soon.

Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> > By "cleaning cycles," do you mean using cleaning cartridges to do 
> > this, or do you just run the Epson head cleaning utility via the 
> > Epson printer software?  (And where does one get cleaning 
cartridges, 

> > if that's needed?)
> 
> Just normal head cleanings. It's not neccessary to use cleaning
> cartridges (at least not when switching between ultrachromes and
> ultratones, I don't know about other ink types).
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

> If I correctly understand the threads I've been recently reading, I 
> should be able to use the 1290 UT curves on the 2200 and get good 
> results (assuming some tweaking, of course).

Depends on how much tweaking you're prepared to do. I managed to get the
warm and neutral warm curves to look pretty good, but I'm still
struggling with the cool one. There are too many weird transitions and
color shifts in that one, so I can't figure out how to fix it.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

For my needs the warm neutral -- as long as resulting prints are not 
too warm -- is sufficient. Since I'm not working with a Mac, it seems 
like the Septone path is the only other feasible way to go, but it 
requires software and the inkset looks expensive. (BTW, I did 
download your curves in anticipation of getting a 2200 and installing 
UT carts -- thanks.)

Chris Hargens


 -- --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel 
Staver" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> > If I correctly understand the threads I've been recently reading, 
I 
> > should be able to use the 1290 UT curves on the 2200 and get good 
> > results (assuming some tweaking, of course).
> 
> Depends on how much tweaking you're prepared to do. I managed to 
get the
> warm and neutral warm curves to look pretty good, but I'm still
> struggling with the cool one. There are too many weird transitions 
and

> color shifts in that one, so I can't figure out how to fix it.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 10:31 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@h...]
> > > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 1:36 PM
> > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
> > >
> >
> > Roy,
> >
> > You may recall the 7600 samples of the Septones I showed you at the SF
> > meeting. The hue of the prints looked very good but some of the
> PixelPicasso
> > wedges were only okay but not as good as others varying with
> how the inks
> > were blended by the software. The 2200 wedges they sent me are
> actually much
> > better but not all are as smooth as I would like to see.
>
> Yes, I remember the prints.  The hues changes were kind of
> extreme so that it
> was obvious to see.

I doubt any one photographer would use the extreme tonal range the inks can
cover. Same seems to be true for the VM sets as well. From my impression of
the Septone samples I would probably use around a 60/40 blend. Something
like 55/45 shadows, 60/40 midtones, 65/35 highlights. Impossible to know
without trying but varying hue in the print should be subtle.

So I could actually get along with two sets of grays that were much closer
together in hue. Obviously this doesn't work from a marketing point of view
though.

> But the more I think about this septone
> idea the more
> skeptical I become.  I think Shilesh also hit upon the issue --
> warm/cool is
> only one dimension of the color variations you might want.   I
> like to think of
> it like the LAB space.  B gives you the yellow/blue or warm/cool
> dimension but
> A which is red/green is equally as important.  This gives you the
> magenta or
> eggplant hues that careful selenium toning can give in a silver
> print.  I think
> this is the effect I most miss.  I've always disliked the
> olive-like tone of some
> silver papers and selenium toning solved that.

I agree with you. For some reason the grayscale inks have gotten hooked on a
color variation that predominantly shifts on a blue - yellow axis. Being
able to shift hue on two axis would be better. If I had to choose though I
think I would rather be able to shift on one hue axis and be able control
that shift separately in different tonal ranges than to have two hue axis
that effect the entire tonal ranges equally.

Of course not everyone wants a change in hue across the tonal range of a
print. In traditional silver printing many people try for the most neutral
print they can sometime not toning at all to avoid hue splits.

>  Likewise I think
> many of the
> carbon inks give me that olive look sometimes and warm/cool
> doesn't fix it.

Definitely.
>
> >
(snip)
> >
> > Do you think that coming up with curve sets that varied two
> sets of gray 3
> > gray inks over highs, mids and lows could be handled by QuadTone?
>
> I think there's a risk of making things too complicated, but sure
> if you can
> mathematically describe it, it can be programmed.  I might be inclined to
> put it into the curve generation phase instead of run time driver phase.

The math would seem to be straight forward since for any given point on the
tonal ramp you are simple describing the ratio of warm/cool ink to lay down
in addition to the ratio of the two adjacent gray positions. The logic would
be for tones 100 to 66 use a ratio of x1/y1 warm/cool grays, from 65 to 33
use a ration of x2/y2 warm/cool grays, etc. You could have just two zones or
perhaps 4.

In a sense I could see doing this on the fly as R9 seems to have done. The
problem here is that it does get complicated and linearity may suffer. In
fact it does to some extent judging from the samples I have. With QuadTone
you could linearize any particular set of ratios for your printer/paper
which you can't do with the Septones software.
>
>    Or say a
> > VM set with 3 toners over three ranges?
>
> The mind starts to boggle with the possibilities.  My
> inclination, if you want
> maximum flexibility, would be a set of 3 or 4 grays that are the
> purest, no
> color pigment set.  Then maybe 2 or 3 toners whose colors are specifically
> a "desirable" color like sepia or eggplant.  You would design curves that
> used only small amounts of these tones to vary the gray output.  You
> could use generic CMY for the toners but it might be trickier to balance
> two different toners.  Who knows?  I'm starting to think I may have to
> get a 2200 for ink experimentation.

I am inclined to agree with you. Being able to infinitely vary the hue
sounds nice on the surface but practically too many options become
overwhelming. Two toner positions sounds good and if there were several
toner pairs available photographers could choose the hue axis they wanted to
work along.

The 2200 with its small separate cartridges looks like it would be the ideal
test bed for trying different inks.

Another question that comes to mind is which approach, Septone or VM, puts
more non-carbon pigment onto the print?

Martin
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: chipcarterdc [mailto:chipcarterdc@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 7:34 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
>
>
> "The 2200 plug-in seems to be priced very well for people looking for
> a dedicated B&W solution on the 2200...."
>
> Are we assuming that changing inks between the OEM Ultrachromes and
> that Septones will be impractical/impossible?  I'm intrigued by the
> Septones, but definitely will want to switch back and forth.  I
> realize this will waste ink b/c I have to run cleaning cycles when
> switching, so I won't be swtiching on a daily basis.  I'll probably
> just print all of my current at any given time b&w images, then print
> all the color ones.  But the guy I emailed at inkjetgoodies indicated
> that switching back and forth is certainly feasible.  Anyone else
> have thoughts on this?

Chip,

I would say it is merely impractical but that depends upon your individual
situation and needs. No mechanical reasons you couldn't do it. The only
potential problem would be switching with a gray scale ink that was not
chemically compatible with the Epson UC inks and creating clogging problems.

People have done switched like this in the past with the 1160 and 1280, and
my impression is that most gave up on it. However these printers were much
lower priced than the 2200 so getting a second one was not as big a
financial hurdle.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

maybe I've missed this, so pardon any obviousness related to the 
question, but what is the difference b/t hue and tone (warm, cool, 
neutral)?

thanks.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@h...]
> > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 10:31 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin 
Wesley"
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@h...]
> > > > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 1:36 PM
> > > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
> > > >
> > >
> > > Roy,
> > >
> > > You may recall the 7600 samples of the Septones I showed you at 
the SF
> > > meeting. The hue of the prints looked very good but some of the
> > PixelPicasso
> > > wedges were only okay but not as good as others varying with
> > how the inks
> > > were blended by the software. The 2200 wedges they sent me are
> > actually much
> > > better but not all are as smooth as I would like to see.
> >
> > Yes, I remember the prints.  The hues changes were kind of
> > extreme so that it
> > was obvious to see.
> 
> I doubt any one photographer would use the extreme tonal range the 
inks can
> cover. Same seems to be true for the VM sets as well. From my 
impression of
> the Septone samples I would probably use around a 60/40 blend. 
Something
> like 55/45 shadows, 60/40 midtones, 65/35 highlights. Impossible to 
know
> without trying but varying hue in the print should be subtle.
> 
> So I could actually get along with two sets of grays that were much 
closer
> together in hue. Obviously this doesn't work from a marketing point 
of view
> though.
> 
> > But the more I think about this septone
> > idea the more
> > skeptical I become.  I think Shilesh also hit upon the issue --
> > warm/cool is
> > only one dimension of the color variations you might want.   I
> > like to think of
> > it like the LAB space.  B gives you the yellow/blue or warm/cool
> > dimension but
> > A which is red/green is equally as important.  This gives you the
> > magenta or
> > eggplant hues that careful selenium toning can give in a silver
> > print.  I think
> > this is the effect I most miss.  I've always disliked the
> > olive-like tone of some
> > silver papers and selenium toning solved that.
> 
> I agree with you. For some reason the grayscale inks have gotten 
hooked on a
> color variation that predominantly shifts on a blue - yellow axis. 
Being
> able to shift hue on two axis would be better. If I had to choose 
though I
> think I would rather be able to shift on one hue axis and be able 
control
> that shift separately in different tonal ranges than to have two 
hue axis
> that effect the entire tonal ranges equally.
> 
> Of course not everyone wants a change in hue across the tonal range 
of a
> print. In traditional silver printing many people try for the most 
neutral
> print they can sometime not toning at all to avoid hue splits.
> 
> >  Likewise I think
> > many of the
> > carbon inks give me that olive look sometimes and warm/cool
> > doesn't fix it.
> 
> Definitely.
> >
> > >
> (snip)
> > >
> > > Do you think that coming up with curve sets that varied two
> > sets of gray 3
> > > gray inks over highs, mids and lows could be handled by 
QuadTone?
> >
> > I think there's a risk of making things too complicated, but sure
> > if you can
> > mathematically describe it, it can be programmed.  I might be 
inclined to
> > put it into the curve generation phase instead of run time driver 
phase.
> 
> The math would seem to be straight forward since for any given 
point on the
> tonal ramp you are simple describing the ratio of warm/cool ink to 
lay down
> in addition to the ratio of the two adjacent gray positions. The 
logic would
> be for tones 100 to 66 use a ratio of x1/y1 warm/cool grays, from 
65 to 33
> use a ration of x2/y2 warm/cool grays, etc. You could have just two 
zones or
> perhaps 4.
> 
> In a sense I could see doing this on the fly as R9 seems to have 
done. The
> problem here is that it does get complicated and linearity may 
suffer. In
> fact it does to some extent judging from the samples I have. With 
QuadTone
> you could linearize any particular set of ratios for your 
printer/paper
> which you can't do with the Septones software.
> >
> >    Or say a
> > > VM set with 3 toners over three ranges?
> >
> > The mind starts to boggle with the possibilities.  My
> > inclination, if you want
> > maximum flexibility, would be a set of 3 or 4 grays that are the
> > purest, no
> > color pigment set.  Then maybe 2 or 3 toners whose colors are 
specifically
> > a "desirable" color like sepia or eggplant.  You would design 
curves that
> > used only small amounts of these tones to vary the gray output.  
You
> > could use generic CMY for the toners but it might be trickier to 
balance
> > two different toners.  Who knows?  I'm starting to think I may 
have to
> > get a 2200 for ink experimentation.
> 
> I am inclined to agree with you. Being able to infinitely vary the 
hue
> sounds nice on the surface but practically too many options become
> overwhelming. Two toner positions sounds good and if there were 
several
> toner pairs available photographers could choose the hue axis they 
wanted to
> work along.
> 
> The 2200 with its small separate cartridges looks like it would be 
the ideal
> test bed for trying different inks.
> 
> Another question that comes to mind is which approach, Septone or 
VM, puts

> more non-carbon pigment onto the print?
> 
> Martin
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:22 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Septone system
>
>
> Martin,
>
> The reason I was curious about how warm the Septone warm inks were is that
> if there are coloring toners in it (which there would have to be if it was
> warmer than the Ultra Tone ["UT"] grays), then its longevity
> would probably
> be somewhat compromised.  From what I can tell, the new, pure carbon inks
> are better than the color pigments that are used to do the toning.  For
> example, I'd say the PiezoTone carbon/sepia is a toned ink.  According to
> Jon Cone's latest lightfastness table the PT Carbon Sepia fades at about 3
> times the rate of the PT warm Neutral, which probably has the least amount
> of colorant in it.

Paul,

I would say that in terms of appearance that the Sundance Warm Neutral is
more similar to the PiezoTone Warm Neutral than the Carbon Sepia. What that
really means in terms of added color pigment I have no idea.
>
> So, what I've been saying is that the best ink is probably the
> ink that has
> the highest percentage of carbon relative to the colorants.

At one point the MIS-FSN neutral was testing out better even though it had
some blue or cyan pigment in it. I know yellow pigments are the weakest but
is it possible that some might be as good or even better than carbon? Just
in general the pigments used in oil painting are very light fast.

Overall though I do agree with you and would go with the system with the
least colorant assuming that it looks decent. At some point though I might
opt for less stability to achieve the look. Personal judgment call.
>
> My approach to this in the UT inkset is to have the gray inks be pure
> carbon.  Then as they are toned cooler, the only colorant that is
> in them is
> the minimum needed to get them to neutral -- or whatever tone is desired.
> For reproductions of old photos, where the natural warm carbon
> tone is very
> appropriate, that is probably the best also for maximum longevity.
>
> Whether the toner is pre-mixed into the ink or in a separate toner would
> probably not matter.  I suspect the primary issue is the percentage of the
> image-forming substance that is color pigment as opposed to the
> best carbon
> base.  The less color pigment, the better.

The problem is that without some very fancy lab work we don't know which
approach, color pigment in the ink or separate toner ink, puts more color
pigment on the paper. Probably easier and more meaningful for our purposes
to just do comparative fade testing.
>
> I want to get back to an inkset that has the full range of sepia
> to neutral.
> To this, I think the best way to go (with current printers) is with a dual
> toner set -- cool and sepia.  That way one doesn't have one toner
> having to
> offset the toner that is pre-mixed into the base gray ink.

I think that is a good approach but it definitely assumes some software
other than the Epson driver to pull that off. I don't think a dual toner
system would be within the capabilities of the RGB separation curve method.
>
> Assuming the Septone warm is not toned, then what are the
> advantages of its
> approach over having a 2-chamber, stronger toner, like the UT inkset?

The advantage is in the software. As far as I know it is the only thing out
there that lets you control hue over three separate tonal ranges. They are
also providing a very large library of paper profiles in the software as
well. I don't see any reason someone couldn't design software for two toners
and have individual tonal range control but no one has done it yet. I don't
know how strong the interest is in the capability. To me personally it is
very important but for other people it is probably a worthless feature. Once
again an artistic decision.
>
> I think having 3 spots for the, in effect, cool toner, is wasting
> the 7-ink
> printer's capabilities.  Two cool toners is enough to have dotless cool
> tones, and that would leave a spot to have the sepia toner -- and one spot
> is enough, as least when one is using the UT grays.
>
> At any rate, it's just my opinion, based on theory more than practice.  I
> have not used the Septone system, nor do I have the system I'm suggesting
> might be a better approach.

Sound like a good system to me and perhaps you could do a dual toner VM in
the 6 ink printers as well. Black, 3 grays and two toners.

In the meantime the Septone seems to have something new and the price for
the 2200 plug-in seems low enough that people could give this a try on the
2200's and then switch to the type of ink set you describe with some version
of QuadTone or OPM. There is still the issue that there is no Windows
equivalent to these great software solutions.

Things sure have gotten interesting!

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mm_rabin [mailto:mm_rabin@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 3:53 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
>
>
> maybe I've missed this, so pardon any obviousness related to the
> question, but what is the difference b/t hue and tone (warm, cool,
> neutral)?
>
mm,

Good question. As I have used the terms in the earlier posts on this
subject, "hue" is the color of the print and "tone" is the shade of neutral
density or gray. I tried to be careful in how I used the two terms but it
does get confusing.

"Hue" is pretty straight forward and Webster's #2 definition is:

"2a : COLOR b : gradation of color c : the attribute of colors that permits
them to be classed as red, yellow, green, blue, or an intermediate between
any contiguous pair of these colors"

"Tone" on the other hand has many meanings the closest being #7:

"7 a (1) : color quality or value (2) : a tint or shade of color b : the
color that appreciably modifies a hue or white or black <gray walls of
greenish tone>"

Which unfortunately is very close to "hue". However, in B&W photography we
often talk about "mid tones", "high tones" and "tone ramp" referring to
degrees of gray with no reference to color. Seems like I/we need a better
word to clearly express colorless "tone." I'm open to suggestion.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

On Tuesday, August 26, 2003, at 07:31  PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> Sound like a good system to me and perhaps you could do a dual toner 
> VM in
> the 6 ink printers as well. Black, 3 grays and two toners.

Martin,

This is essentially what I'm using now with the UT inks (2 blacks, 3 
grays, and 2 toners) in the 2200 and so far it is working very well.  I 
would think that the same setup could be used in the six ink printers 
as well (minus the extra PK).

Carl

Martin,

>>...
>> The reason I was curious about how warm the Septone warm inks were is
that
>> if there are coloring toners in it ... then its longevity would probably
>> be somewhat compromised.  From what I can tell, the new, pure carbon inks
>> are better than the color pigments that are used to do the toning.  ...

>I would say that in terms of appearance that the Sundance Warm Neutral is
>more similar to the PiezoTone Warm Neutral than the Carbon Sepia. What that
>really means in terms of added color pigment I have no idea.

It probably has no coloring toners in it then, which is good.

>At one point the MIS-FSN neutral was testing out better even though it had
>some blue or cyan pigment in it.

The cool inks used to benefit from the cyan pigment, which is very
lightfast.  However, these were the inks that had dye in them from the black
ink that was used to make the grays.

>I know yellow pigments are the weakest ...

Actually, the newer yellows are relatively good.  In my testing, the magenta
has been the weak link lately.  I was very interested to see that Cone's UC
test showed the UC magenta to be the best.  They must have come up with
something new.

>is it possible that some might be as good or even better than carbon?

Yes.  Note that Epson may even be moving away from carbon in its black
pigments.  They, of course, don't say what they are.  My chemist brother who
worked in carbon-related fields doubts that carbon is the ultimate.

But, today's inkjet colors are not, in general, as good as the carbon or
black pigs.  Note that Wilhelm's UC "B&W" numbers are better than the color
ones.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Martin,

thanks for the reply.  to clarify, hue, then, is equivalent to 
color.  but I'm still unclear on how "tone" is being used in the 
septone discussions.  are we talking about cool, warm, and neutral w/ 
the use of the word "tone."  if that's the case, isn't tone, in 
inkjet printing, a result of color inks (usually yellow v. blue); 
thereby further conflating the definition of "hue" and "tone"?  or, 
in this context, is tone----defined as degress of gray---being used 
as a reference to something like the zone system?

sorry to be so picayune; I'm also sharing in the communal quest for 
the holy grail of better control of B/W inkjet prints.  and the 
discussions here on the subject have been, as jon cone points out, 
invaluable.  just want to be sure I've got a precise handle on all 
the terms being used.  color is one tricky subject; ironically, even 
in B/W printing.

thanks again.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mm_rabin [mailto:mm_rabin@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 3:53 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
> >
> >
> > maybe I've missed this, so pardon any obviousness related to the
> > question, but what is the difference b/t hue and tone (warm, cool,
> > neutral)?
> >
> mm,
> 
> Good question. As I have used the terms in the earlier posts on this
> subject, "hue" is the color of the print and "tone" is the shade of 
neutral
> density or gray. I tried to be careful in how I used the two terms 
but it
> does get confusing.
> 
> "Hue" is pretty straight forward and Webster's #2 definition is:
> 
> "2a : COLOR b : gradation of color c : the attribute of colors that 
permits
> them to be classed as red, yellow, green, blue, or an intermediate 
between
> any contiguous pair of these colors"
> 
> "Tone" on the other hand has many meanings the closest being #7:
> 
> "7 a (1) : color quality or value (2) : a tint or shade of color 
b : the
> color that appreciably modifies a hue or white or black <gray walls 
of
> greenish tone>"
> 
> Which unfortunately is very close to "hue". However, in B&W 
photography we
> often talk about "mid tones", "high tones" and "tone ramp" 
referring to
> degrees of gray with no reference to color. Seems like I/we need a 
better

> word to clearly express colorless "tone." I'm open to suggestion.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

"mm_rabin" <mm_rabin@y...> wrote:

> thereby further conflating the definition of "hue" and "tone"?  or, 
> in this context, is tone----defined as degress of gray---being used 
> as a reference to something like the zone system?

Hue=Color

Tone=Neutral "Gray" Density (Think of the Zone System and all the different gray 
values)

It seems "tone" is ambiguous and will mostly like stay that way.  You'll
have to decide based on context.  If "mid tones", "high tones" are being
talked about its the gray value.  But if warm/cool, sepia toner, etc.  are
being referred to its basically a color issue.   For septones I think they
mix the usage back and forth.  How about -- the mid tones can be
set for warm or cool tone.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mm_rabin" 
<mm_rabin@y...> wrote:

> Martin,
> 
> thanks for the reply.  to clarify, hue, then, is equivalent to 
> color.  but I'm still unclear on how "tone" is being used in the 
> septone discussions.  are we talking about cool, warm, and neutral w/ 
> the use of the word "tone."  if that's the case, isn't tone, in 
> inkjet printing, a result of color inks (usually yellow v. blue); 
> thereby further conflating the definition of "hue" and "tone"?  or, 
> in this context, is tone----defined as degress of gray---being used 
> as a reference to something like the zone system?
> 
> sorry to be so picayune; I'm also sharing in the communal quest for 
> the holy grail of better control of B/W inkjet prints.  and the 
> discussions here on the subject have been, as jon cone points out, 
> invaluable.  just want to be sure I've got a precise handle on all 
> the terms being used.  color is one tricky subject; ironically, even 
> in B/W printing.
> 
> thanks again.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Wesley" 
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: mm_rabin [mailto:mm_rabin@y...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 3:53 PM
> > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system
> > >
> > >
> > > maybe I've missed this, so pardon any obviousness related to the
> > > question, but what is the difference b/t hue and tone (warm, cool,
> > > neutral)?
> > >
> > mm,
> > 
> > Good question. As I have used the terms in the earlier posts on this
> > subject, "hue" is the color of the print and "tone" is the shade of 
> neutral
> > density or gray. I tried to be careful in how I used the two terms 
> but it
> > does get confusing.
> > 
> > "Hue" is pretty straight forward and Webster's #2 definition is:
> > 
> > "2a : COLOR b : gradation of color c : the attribute of colors that 
> permits
> > them to be classed as red, yellow, green, blue, or an intermediate 
> between
> > any contiguous pair of these colors"
> > 
> > "Tone" on the other hand has many meanings the closest being #7:
> > 
> > "7 a (1) : color quality or value (2) : a tint or shade of color 
> b : the
> > color that appreciably modifies a hue or white or black <gray walls 
> of
> > greenish tone>"
> > 
> > Which unfortunately is very close to "hue". However, in B&W 
> photography we
> > often talk about "mid tones", "high tones" and "tone ramp" 
> referring to
> > degrees of gray with no reference to color. Seems like I/we need a 
> better
> > word to clearly express colorless "tone." I'm open to suggestion.
> > 
> > Martin Wesley
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

I have a complete set (6) of Warm Neutral Piezotones 220ML carts that I'd
like to sell. I bought way too many.

Contact me off list if interested.

Rick Murai

Roy wrote:

>It seems "tone" is ambiguous and will mostly like stay that way.  You'll
>have to decide based on context.  If "mid tones", "high tones" are being
>talked about its the gray value.  But if warm/cool, sepia toner, etc.  are
>being referred to its basically a color issue.   ...

Yes, I'm afraid I'm guilty of loose use of these terms.  I speak of, for
example, "mid-tones" as meaning mid-scale visual densities.  However, I also
speak of the color control inks as "toners."  Oh well ...

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system


>
> It seems "tone" is ambiguous and will mostly like stay that
way.  You'll
> have to decide based on context.  If "mid tones", "high tones"
are being
> talked about its the gray value.  But if warm/cool, sepia
toner, etc.  are
> being referred to its basically a color issue.   For septones I
think they
> mix the usage back and forth.  How about -- the mid tones can
be
> set for warm or cool tone.
>
> Roy

It was a bit confusing when I first got on this list. Tone here
is also used in the sense of hue added to a neutral B&W print
while it is normally used for grey value in all images.

The HSV or Munsell description is usable for B&W too but it will
be hard to get it accepted. It is even difficult to use the terms
when discussing colour with artists. Could be the result of
several colour theories they have to endure on art colleges so
their colour model may have another even more irregular shape
than mine has :-)  The confusion in Dutch isn't less than in
English: "toon" is used in more meanings, "tint" also.
I use Kleursoort, Verzadiging and Grijswaarde for HSV but in the
end I adapt to the terms they use and hope we both think about
the same aspect of colour.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Roy wrote:
> 
> >It seems "tone" is ambiguous and will mostly like stay that way.  You'll
> >have to decide based on context.  If "mid tones", "high tones" are being
> >talked about its the gray value.  But if warm/cool, sepia toner, etc.  are
> >being referred to its basically a color issue.   ...
> 
> Yes, I'm afraid I'm guilty of loose use of these terms.  I speak of, for
> example, "mid-tones" as meaning mid-scale visual densities.  However, I also
> speak of the color control inks as "toners."  Oh well ...
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

I wouldn't feel to guilty.  This common usage has been around for a very
long time.  I hope no one will think we should change from "toners" to
"huers"  :)

Roy

> I wouldn't feel to guilty.  This common usage has been around for a very
> long time.  I hope no one will think we should change from "toners" to
> "huers"  :)
> 
> Roy

As in "huers" of wood... :-) 

We could be "huers" of ink

> As in "huers" of wood... :-) 

I think you mean "hewers of wood" <g>

 
Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Septone system


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul
Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Roy wrote:
> >
> > >It seems "tone" is ambiguous and will mostly like stay that
way.  You'll
> > >have to decide based on context.  If "mid tones", "high
tones" are being
> > >talked about its the gray value.  But if warm/cool, sepia
toner, etc.  are
> > >being referred to its basically a color issue.   ...
> >
> > Yes, I'm afraid I'm guilty of loose use of these terms.  I
speak of, for
> > example, "mid-tones" as meaning mid-scale visual densities.
However, I also
> > speak of the color control inks as "toners."  Oh well ...
> >
> > Paul
> > http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
> I wouldn't feel to guilty.  This common usage has been around
for a very
> long time.  I hope no one will think we should change from
"toners" to
> "huers"  :)
>
> Roy

Colorants isn't the right term either but usable in B&W quad
lingo to go along with "grey value" tone.

Ernst