Digital BW, The Print

Since no one else better qualified has answered your questions, I'll take a
stab at answering some of them.

> 1)  You speak of 15 stops from colour negative film.  I have heard people
> saying that Velvia slide film has just +/- 1 2/3 stops, or 3 1/3 stops, of
> workable range.  Are these measurements of the same thing?  (What is the
> tonal range of Provia?)

I don't know about these exact numbers, I don't use slide film, but in
general they are saying that the film contains a density range equivalent to
15 stops from darkest to brightest areas but the paper can't print that
great a range and still have texture in the darkest areas and the lightest
areas, i.e. the paper doesn't have as great a contrast or density range as
the film. So if a scene containing 15 stops (not likely in real life) is
recorded on film and the film is then printed the printer would have to
choose between losing some of the texture or detail in the darkest areas or
the lightest areas or some portion of each, i.e. compromises would have to
be made because of the narrower contrast range of paper (really good slide
printers dealt with this problem by making contrast reducing masks). All
traditional photographic papers have roughly the same contrast range, abut
1.8 - 2.1 (Ilfachrome had about the highest at 2.4).  The differences among
them are in how that available range is apportioned among the shadows,
midtones, and highlights, which is what a chracteristic curve will show you.
.

> 2) How does one convert stops to density? Loosely.  For example, if a
> scanner has a rated dMax of 4.8 how does that relate to the tonal range in
> stops of film that it is going to scan?

Density is measured in log units. .30 log units equals one stop. So when I
said above that all papers have a contrast range of about 1.8 to 2.1, that's
saying there's a range of about 6 to 7 stops. I don't know exactly what you
mean by the rest of the question. The 4.8 number in theory is the density in
log units when d max is measured with a reflection densitometer but there
are a lot of variables involved and in any event there's no range as such
with that spec, it's just a measurement.

> 5) At the end of the day we are severely constrained by the tonal range
> capability of our printing.  Hogarth mentioned 8 stops for silver gelatin
> paper.  How do I relate a linearised print of a step wedge on HPR with a
> paper white dMin of .04 and a best black dMax of 1.68 to these figures?
> (Wouldn't it be nice if they all used the same scale?)

Subtract .04 from 1.68 = 1.64 density range. Divide 1.64 by .30 = number of
stops. "They" do all use the same scale or at least the same unit of
measurement once you realize that .30 log units equals one stop. There are
different kinds of step wedges and they usually aren't divided into full
stops. The familiar 21 step wedge is divided into half stops (i.e. .15 log
units per step).

> While the boundaries of the digital print are expanding, I guess we still
> need to shoot by compressing the tonal range of the scene with ND filters
> (or multiple exposures) so that it can be rendered well in the print -
> traditional or inkjet.

Actually I believe the point of Hogarth's message was that he doesn't think
this is necessary when scanning film and printing digitally.  He spoke of
compressing the tonal range by reducing developing times but I would think
his theory is equally applicable to compression by ND filters. Whether he's
correct or not (or whether I'm interpreting what he's saying correctly) I
don't know but it seemed to make sense.

Hope this helps and that I'm not talking down to you..

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "steve_bye" <steve_bye@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Tonal range recording


>
> Norman Koren has a great site that explains everything in detail, but is
not
> for the faint of heart. It requires careful study. While there is a lot of
> great info on the site, this link gets you to the dynamic range questions
> you are asking about.
>
> http://www.normankoren.com/digital_tonality.html
>
> His site also does a technical comparison of digital and film cameras for
> resolution and noise, including the limiting effects of lens resolution.
For
> digital there is only one lens, but for film there are three lenses of
> interest - the camera lens, a scanner lens, or the enlarger lens. It's a
> fascinating website. Here is the link for that discussion.
> http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 2:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Tonal range recording
>
>
>
> Ok so I must confess that this and the other responses blew straight over
my
> head, not being a zone guy and not understanding film shoulders and toes.
> Can I ask some basic questions so that I can follow the discussion:
>
> 1)  You speak of 15 stops from colour negative film.  I have heard people
> saying that Velvia slide film has just +/- 1 2/3 stops, or 3 1/3 stops, of
> workable range.  Are these measurements of the same thing?  (What is the
> tonal range of Provia?)
>
> 2) How does one convert stops to density? Loosely.  For example, if a
> scanner has a rated dMax of 4.8 how does that relate to the tonal range in
> stops of film that it is going to scan?
>
> 3) Where does the "12 stop linear capability of some censors" come from?
> What is the figure for the 1Ds MK II or 1Ds?
>
> 4) I think I understand the importance of linearity - kind-of-sort-of -
from
> printing.  Is this a similar concept? Ie evenly distributed tonal range?
>
> 5) At the end of the day we are severely constrained by the tonal range
> capability of our printing.  Hogarth mentioned 8 stops for silver gelatin
> paper.  How do I relate a linearised print of a step wedge on HPR with a
> paper white dMin of .04 and a best black dMax of 1.68 to these figures?
> (Wouldn't it be nice if they all used the same scale?)
>
> While the boundaries of the digital print are expanding, I guess we still
> need to shoot by compressing the tonal range of the scene with ND filters
> (or multiple exposures) so that it can be rendered well in the print -
> traditional or inkjet.  I am trying to relate the two (and the steps that
> may be in between eg scanning) so that when I get out my spot meter I am
not
> only thinking in terms of stops but also in terms of my printer's tonal
> range.  Sorry if these are basic questions but I think it will help a lot
of
> people tie all the talk of dMax back to the camera itself.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Steve
>
> PS:  this was not meant to be a digital capture vs film capture
discussion -
> I think the topic relates to both. I do believe there are significant
> workflow efficiencies with digital cameras and I am about to make the
switch
> but relating the tonal range of a scene as measured by a spot meter in
> f-stops back to the tonal range of the printer, ink and paper combination
> applies to both forms of capture.
>
>
> > From: <claudej1@...>
> >
> >
> >
> > Boy, you have opened a big can of worms here. Most of the color negative
> > film (normal C-41 development) has a Contrast Index of 0.44-0.52, which
> means
> > a
> > 1 stop luminance change in the scene records a 0.14 change in density in
> the
> > film. Assuming no major color crossovers, from a pure monochomatic
> conversion
> > of  the resultant lumped densities, you can get out to about 15 stops of
> > luminance  before a shoulder apperars from the straight line and short
toe
> of
> > color
> > neg.  films. This from a Dmin in the shadows of about .25 to a Dmax of r
> 2.38
> > in the  highlights.
> >
> > B&W films, especially Tmax (per my curve tests circa 1990) can vary
from
> > 3-11 stops with D-76 straight (I wild combinaton to tame I might add)
and
> a
> > 5-11
> > minute development time. So with B&W, the Contrast Index (CI) varies
with
> > development, as does the effective shadow thresholld speed, although not
> as
> > much as you might think.
> >
> > ISO states that you need a CI of 0.65 to get the box speed rating. Most
> > Zoners develop their filme to a CI of 0.55 to match to the CI of #2
paper,
> > which
> > is a CI of 1.8 in an ideal world. So ISO essentially "pushes" the film a
> > little  to get their rating, but real users have always derated their
film
> at
> > least
> > 2/3  stop with their "normal development."  So, with severe speed
derating
> > and  an extreme development "pull" you can get a lower CI than color
neg.
> > film,
> > which  is fixed. This could also inhibit the Dmax of the film depending
on
> the
> >  developer and how it is agitated.
> >
> > I have achieved densities in excess of 4.0 with Tmax developed in Dektol
> > (not a misprint), but I never tested for linearity.
> >
> > So, the recordable density range for B&W film varies all over the map
and
> is
> > not necessarily superior to the 12 stop linear capability of some
> sensors.
> > Besides, with digital capture, you can easily increase the dynamic
range
> with
> > a separate highlight and shadow range exposure to be blended later in
any
> > ratio you wish.
> >
> > This makes blanket statements, in either case, untrue without specific
> > details of each method.
> >
> > I prefer the speed and efficiency of digital capture with the
> > creative/corrective post processes afforded by Photoshop, but that's
just
> me.
> > I'm too
> > impatient to go back to the darkroom for any reason. I earn my living
> with
> > "click
> > to print" workflows of less than 1 minute for a 4x6 color print from
high
> > speed dye subs, and I'm starting to do the same with Epsons, so maybe
I've
> > been
> > pulled too far the other way by digital technology.
> >
> > I simply love color pigments AND BO/Quad/Hex/Sept/Oct monochrome inkjet
> > output on various papers. What a great time to be in the "lightroom"
with
> so
> > many
> > great choices.
> >
> > My handcuffs are long gone along with my toxic chemical dependency.
> >
> > Claude
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
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as
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Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
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MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
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MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
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