Digital BW, The Print

You mentioned using the inks from the Epson 10600 series.

Isn't that a different ink than UC and not as archival ?

Scott



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> That would be interesting.  I have not had access to that type of 
equipment.
> Let us know what you find.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scott_now_coming [mailto:scott_now_coming@y...] 
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 11:09 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: UC-based UT7 clone (was " MIS inks")
> 
> 
> 
> So, you haven't tried to analyize 
> the Epson inks  (or others)with a Spectrometer to see their make up?
> 
> Unless Epson has invented those coatings and their properties have 
> never been published, the Spectrometer should be able to show the 
> make up.
> 
> I'm under the impression that a Spectrometer will tell the contents 
> of a sample and at what percentage they are.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Scott,
> > 
> > >Are these inks anything more than carbon, glycerol, and water?
> > 
> > Yes.  The Epson pigs are coated and probably not available 
anywhere 
> but from
> > Epson.  In addition to the coating, the pigments themselves may 
be 
> more
> > proprietary pigment than carbon.  The base they use has some 
> proprietary
> > chemicals in it that are not disclosed in the MSDS.  But, at the 
> dilution I
> > used, the water and glycerol seems to work.  That mixture is the 
> least
> > likely to have negative interactions with the Epson base, since 
> their base
> > is that plus some other materials.
> > 
> > Even the un-coated pigs MIS uses are probably not pure carbon, 
even 
> though
> > the supplier says they are "carbon."  
> > 
> > >If I know the make up of the ink, I can make it myself.
> > 
> > I'm not so ambitious as to mill my own.  
> > 
> > >Your UT-7 clone do not need curves if you just want neutral 
> through 
> > >warm prints. Just use the Epson sliders in the driver. Correct?
> > 
> > Yes, the sliders give you some control, but curves give a lot 
> more.  The UT7
> > curves work reasonably well with the clone inkset described. 
> > 
> > >The "ink particles" are 0.19 microns. Epson nozzles are 
> > >25 microns +- 5 microns.
> > 
> > Close.  The particles per se are not a problem.  Agglomerations 
> are.  The
> > quality of the dispersant and other parts of the base are part of 
> the trick.
> > 
> > >Have you made inks from "Scratch"?
> > 
> > I don't have a mill.  But after that, it's wide open, and filters 
> to be sure
> > there are no clunkers are available.
> > 
> > Good luck.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com 
> > 
> > ______________________________________
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > Scott,
> > > 
> > > >>I've published on this forum the formula
> > > >>for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.
> > > 
> > > >Can you point me to that post?
> > > 
> > > I posted this on 7/19/04 with the Subject, "UltraChrome-based 
> > variable-tone
> > > inkset":  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > "This is my 6-14 formula for the UC-VT (for the 2200) I 
recently 
> > tested.  It
> > > is very similar in its behavior to UT7, but the formulas are 
> > different.
> > > With sliders set to 0, the 50% patch of an EEM print had C,M,Y 
> > = .60, .61,
> > > .60.
> > > 
> > > "The base:  4 parts distilled water and 3 parts glycerol.  (I 
> used 
> > Kic
> > > technical grade.)
> > > 
> > > "(In the past, I've had trouble finding a base that worked well 
> > with the UC
> > > inks.  The simple base I used for this inkset does the job and 
> > anyone can
> > > make it.)
> > > 
> > > "Blue used in mixing:  50% UC M, 50% UC C.
> > > 
> > > "K position:  I prefer Eboni.  Epson UC matte black would also 
> work.
> > > 
> > > "LK position:  UC LK, no changes.
> > > 
> > > "C position:  70% UC PK, 30% UC LK.
> > > 
> > > "LC position:  52% UC LK, 48% base.
> > > 
> > > "M position:  30% blue, 40% LK, 30% PK.
> > > 
> > > "LM position:  30% LK, 10% blue, 60% base.
> > > 
> > > "Y position:  88% LC, 7% Y, 5% M.
> > > 
> > > "This is not necessarily a final formula, but it's close and 
> > works.  I had
> > > no clogging or other problems with these experimental inksets.  
> > (Nor do I
> > > have clogging problems with MIS inksets.)"
> > > 
> > > >And how did you come to a starting point?
> > > 
> > > I'm not sure what you're asking here.
> > > 
> > > >I've been thinking of making inks myself.
> > > >My wife is a chemist and I'm sure we could do it.
> > > 
> > > I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  It thought 
that 
> a 
> > small
> > > ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have 
a 
> > prejudice
> > > against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one 
has 
> > picked it
> > > up.
> > > 
> > > Note that I also made one based on the Epson Archival inkset 
that 
> I 
> > thought
> > > might have more marketing potential for an ink seller.  
However, 
> in 
> > my
> > > initial fade testing the UC-based version did better than the 
> Epson 
> > Archival
> > > version.  (The Epson Archival black is about like the old MIS 
VM 
> > black in
> > > fading.  I think it is actually a hybrid pigment-dye ink -- not 
> in 
> > the same
> > > league with the current MIS and Epson matte and photo blacks.)
> > > 
> > > Have fun.
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com 
> > > ___________________________________
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul 
Roark" 
> > > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > > Ben,
> > > > 
> > > > >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> > > > >lightfastness, ...
> > > > 
> > > > I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own 
testing.  
> > So, 
> > > I made a
> > > > fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as 
> > any), 
> > > and
> > > > started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll 
> leave 
> > > the
> > > > predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is 
> > what 
> > > convinced
> > > > me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks 
were 
> > more
> > > > lightfast.
> > > > 
> > > > Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I 
> still 
> > > do some
> > > > testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and 
> even 
> > > to explore
> > > > non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> > > > 
> > > > The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments 
> has 
> > > beat every
> > > > other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival 
> pigments.  
> > > The carbon
> > > > pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining 
> the 
> > > visual
> > > > density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm 
up 
> a 
> > > bit,
> > > > however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
> > > unlike what we
> > > > see with other traditional B&W media.
> > > > 
> > > > Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) 
> was 
> > > the
> > > > relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure 
carbon, 
> > > like the MIS
> > > > EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark 
> storage 
> > > the paper
> > > > base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
> > > pigments.)
> > > > Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment 
for 
> > the 
> > > magenta.
> > > > Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as 
> lightfast 
> > as 
> > > the
> > > > carbon.
> > > > 
> > > > Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's 
business 
> > > model is
> > > > such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does 
> not 
> > do 
> > > its own
> > > > B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks 
> that 
> > > act as the
> > > > inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during 
the 
> > last 
> > > few
> > > > years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come 
up 
> > > with.  So,
> > > > while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary 
> > purposes, 
> > > one
> > > > could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
> > > formulated.  On the
> > > > other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, 
and 
> > my 
> > > goal is
> > > > to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by 
> collectors 
> > > as equal
> > > > to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this 
> forum 
> > > the formula
> > > > for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the 
> > fade 
> > > test
> > > > results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but 
> not 
> > > as well as
> > > > the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> > > > 
> > > > Hope this helps.
> > > > 
> > > > Paul
> > > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
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