Digital BW, The Print

Does anyone have a web site for MIS inks?

Jim Davis
http://www.visual-artists.com
davis.jarthur@...
Fine art printmaker

http://www.inksupply.com/

--- "J. Arthur Davis" <jarthurdavis@...>
wrote:
> Does anyone have a web site for MIS inks?
> 
> Jim Davis
> http://www.visual-artists.com
> davis.jarthur@...
> Fine art printmaker
> 
> 
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Hi everyone, new to the group and new to using MIS inks.  From 
reading posts here, it sounds like a lot of you use MIS in your 
Epsons.  I really like the results so far, but was wondering if 
anyone with experience using them on a regular basis or for some 
time wanted to comment on issues like lightfastness, water 
resistence, inkhead clogging (this hasn't happened to me, but I 
always here about it as a problem), etc.  Thanks.

-Ben

Ben,

>...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
>lightfastness, ...

I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own testing.  So, I made a
fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as any), and
started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll leave the
predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is what convinced
me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks were more
lightfast.

Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I still do some
testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and even to explore
non-inkset sources of pigments.  

The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments has beat every
other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival pigments.  The carbon
pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining the visual
density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm up a bit,
however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not unlike what we
see with other traditional B&W media.

Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) was the
relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure carbon, like the MIS
EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark storage the paper
base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the pigments.)
Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment for the magenta.
Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as lightfast as the
carbon.

Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's business model is
such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does not do its own
B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks that act as the
inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during the last few
years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come up with.  So,
while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary purposes, one
could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I formulated.  On the
other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, and my goal is
to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by collectors as equal
to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this forum the formula
for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the fade test
results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but not as well as
the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"I've published on this forum the formula
for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks."

Can you point me to that post?

And how did you come to a starting point?

I've been thinking of making inks myself.

My wife is a chemist and I'm sure we could do it.

Thanks,

Scott



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Ben,
> 
> >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> >lightfastness, ...
> 
> I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own testing.  So, 
I made a
> fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as any), 
and
> started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll leave 
the
> predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is what 
convinced
> me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks were more
> lightfast.
> 
> Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I still 
do some
> testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and even 
to explore
> non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> 
> The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments has 
beat every
> other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival pigments.  
The carbon
> pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining the 
visual
> density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm up a 
bit,
> however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
unlike what we
> see with other traditional B&W media.
> 
> Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) was 
the
> relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure carbon, 
like the MIS
> EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark storage 
the paper
> base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
pigments.)
> Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment for the 
magenta.
> Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as lightfast as 
the
> carbon.
> 
> Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's business 
model is
> such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does not do 
its own
> B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks that 
act as the
> inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during the last 
few
> years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come up 
with.  So,
> while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary purposes, 
one
> could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
formulated.  On the
> other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, and my 
goal is
> to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by collectors 
as equal
> to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this forum 
the formula
> for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the fade 
test
> results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but not 
as well as

> the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Scott,

>>I've published on this forum the formula
>>for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.

>Can you point me to that post?

I posted this on 7/19/04 with the Subject, "UltraChrome-based variable-tone
inkset":  


"This is my 6-14 formula for the UC-VT (for the 2200) I recently tested.  It
is very similar in its behavior to UT7, but the formulas are different.
With sliders set to 0, the 50% patch of an EEM print had C,M,Y = .60, .61,
.60.

"The base:  4 parts distilled water and 3 parts glycerol.  (I used Kic
technical grade.)

"(In the past, I've had trouble finding a base that worked well with the UC
inks.  The simple base I used for this inkset does the job and anyone can
make it.)

"Blue used in mixing:  50% UC M, 50% UC C.

"K position:  I prefer Eboni.  Epson UC matte black would also work.

"LK position:  UC LK, no changes.

"C position:  70% UC PK, 30% UC LK.

"LC position:  52% UC LK, 48% base.

"M position:  30% blue, 40% LK, 30% PK.

"LM position:  30% LK, 10% blue, 60% base.

"Y position:  88% LC, 7% Y, 5% M.

"This is not necessarily a final formula, but it's close and works.  I had
no clogging or other problems with these experimental inksets.  (Nor do I
have clogging problems with MIS inksets.)"

>And how did you come to a starting point?

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

>I've been thinking of making inks myself.
>My wife is a chemist and I'm sure we could do it.

I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  It thought that a small
ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have a prejudice
against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one has picked it
up.

Note that I also made one based on the Epson Archival inkset that I thought
might have more marketing potential for an ink seller.  However, in my
initial fade testing the UC-based version did better than the Epson Archival
version.  (The Epson Archival black is about like the old MIS VM black in
fading.  I think it is actually a hybrid pigment-dye ink -- not in the same
league with the current MIS and Epson matte and photo blacks.)

Have fun.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
___________________________________



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Ben,
> 
> >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> >lightfastness, ...
> 
> I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own testing.  So, 
I made a
> fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as any), 
and
> started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll leave 
the
> predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is what 
convinced
> me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks were more
> lightfast.
> 
> Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I still 
do some
> testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and even 
to explore
> non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> 
> The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments has 
beat every
> other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival pigments.  
The carbon
> pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining the 
visual
> density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm up a 
bit,
> however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
unlike what we
> see with other traditional B&W media.
> 
> Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) was 
the
> relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure carbon, 
like the MIS
> EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark storage 
the paper
> base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
pigments.)
> Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment for the 
magenta.
> Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as lightfast as 
the
> carbon.
> 
> Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's business 
model is
> such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does not do 
its own
> B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks that 
act as the
> inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during the last 
few
> years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come up 
with.  So,
> while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary purposes, 
one
> could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
formulated.  On the
> other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, and my 
goal is
> to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by collectors 
as equal
> to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this forum 
the formula
> for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the fade 
test
> results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but not 
as well as
> the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com





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Paul,

I was think of starting from raw chemicls.
I know the carbon would have to be milled to a certain "spec", to 
prevent clogging.

I like your idea, but how do you obtain "quanity" of UC?

I doubt Epson would want to sell me a large volume of their ink at a 
reasonable rate.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> >>I've published on this forum the formula
> >>for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.
> 
> >Can you point me to that post?
> 
> I posted this on 7/19/04 with the Subject, "UltraChrome-based 
variable-tone
> inkset":  
> 
> 
> "This is my 6-14 formula for the UC-VT (for the 2200) I recently 
tested.  It
> is very similar in its behavior to UT7, but the formulas are 
different.
> With sliders set to 0, the 50% patch of an EEM print had C,M,Y 
= .60, .61,
> .60.
> 
> "The base:  4 parts distilled water and 3 parts glycerol.  (I used 
Kic
> technical grade.)
> 
> "(In the past, I've had trouble finding a base that worked well 
with the UC
> inks.  The simple base I used for this inkset does the job and 
anyone can
> make it.)
> 
> "Blue used in mixing:  50% UC M, 50% UC C.
> 
> "K position:  I prefer Eboni.  Epson UC matte black would also work.
> 
> "LK position:  UC LK, no changes.
> 
> "C position:  70% UC PK, 30% UC LK.
> 
> "LC position:  52% UC LK, 48% base.
> 
> "M position:  30% blue, 40% LK, 30% PK.
> 
> "LM position:  30% LK, 10% blue, 60% base.
> 
> "Y position:  88% LC, 7% Y, 5% M.
> 
> "This is not necessarily a final formula, but it's close and 
works.  I had
> no clogging or other problems with these experimental inksets.  
(Nor do I
> have clogging problems with MIS inksets.)"
> 
> >And how did you come to a starting point?
> 
> I'm not sure what you're asking here.
> 
> >I've been thinking of making inks myself.
> >My wife is a chemist and I'm sure we could do it.
> 
> I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  It thought that a 
small
> ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have a 
prejudice
> against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one has 
picked it
> up.
> 
> Note that I also made one based on the Epson Archival inkset that I 
thought
> might have more marketing potential for an ink seller.  However, in 
my
> initial fade testing the UC-based version did better than the Epson 
Archival
> version.  (The Epson Archival black is about like the old MIS VM 
black in
> fading.  I think it is actually a hybrid pigment-dye ink -- not in 
the same
> league with the current MIS and Epson matte and photo blacks.)
> 
> Have fun.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> ___________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Ben,
> > 
> > >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> > >lightfastness, ...
> > 
> > I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own testing.  
So, 
> I made a
> > fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as 
any), 
> and
> > started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll leave 
> the
> > predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is 
what 
> convinced
> > me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks were 
more
> > lightfast.
> > 
> > Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I still 
> do some
> > testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and even 
> to explore
> > non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> > 
> > The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments has 
> beat every
> > other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival pigments.  
> The carbon
> > pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining the 
> visual
> > density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm up a 
> bit,
> > however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
> unlike what we
> > see with other traditional B&W media.
> > 
> > Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) was 
> the
> > relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure carbon, 
> like the MIS
> > EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark storage 
> the paper
> > base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
> pigments.)
> > Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment for 
the 
> magenta.
> > Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as lightfast 
as 
> the
> > carbon.
> > 
> > Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's business 
> model is
> > such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does not 
do 
> its own
> > B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks that 
> act as the
> > inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during the 
last 
> few
> > years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come up 
> with.  So,
> > while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary 
purposes, 
> one
> > could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
> formulated.  On the
> > other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, and 
my 
> goal is
> > to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by collectors 
> as equal
> > to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this forum 
> the formula
> > for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the 
fade 
> test
> > results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but not 
> as well as
> > the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> > 
> > Hope this helps.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER

> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Paul,

Thanks for the reply.  I actually have seen your website and have 
used your curve adjustments posted there.  I have not gotten a 
satisfactory B&W print (at least to me anyway) with the 2200 until 
using MIS inks and your curves.  I am really ambitious about their 
performance.  Thanks for the help.

Ben Hess

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Ben,
> 
> >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> >lightfastness, ...
> 
> I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own testing.  
So, I made a
> fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as any), 
and
> started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll leave 
the
> predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is what 
convinced
> me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks were 
more
> lightfast.
> 
> Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I still 
do some
> testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and even 
to explore
> non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> 
> The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments has 
beat every
> other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival pigments.  
The carbon
> pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining the 
visual
> density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm up a 
bit,
> however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
unlike what we
> see with other traditional B&W media.
> 
> Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) was 
the
> relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure carbon, 
like the MIS
> EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark storage 
the paper
> base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
pigments.)
> Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment for the 
magenta.
> Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as lightfast 
as the
> carbon.
> 
> Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's business 
model is
> such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does not 
do its own
> B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks that 
act as the
> inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during the 
last few
> years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come up 
with.  So,
> while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary 
purposes, one
> could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
formulated.  On the
> other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, and my 
goal is
> to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by collectors 
as equal
> to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this forum 
the formula
> for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the fade 
test
> results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but not 
as well as

> the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Are these inks anything more than carbon, glycerol, and water?

If I know the make up of the ink, I can make it myself.

I have access to lab equipment and resources to purchase chemicals.

Thanks Paul,

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> >>I've published on this forum the formula
> >>for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.
> 
> >Can you point me to that post?
> 
> I posted this on 7/19/04 with the Subject, "UltraChrome-based 
variable-tone
> inkset":  
> 
> 
> "This is my 6-14 formula for the UC-VT (for the 2200) I recently 
tested.  It
> is very similar in its behavior to UT7, but the formulas are 
different.
> With sliders set to 0, the 50% patch of an EEM print had C,M,Y 
= .60, .61,
> .60.
> 
> "The base:  4 parts distilled water and 3 parts glycerol.  (I used 
Kic
> technical grade.)
> 
> "(In the past, I've had trouble finding a base that worked well 
with the UC
> inks.  The simple base I used for this inkset does the job and 
anyone can
> make it.)
> 
> "Blue used in mixing:  50% UC M, 50% UC C.
> 
> "K position:  I prefer Eboni.  Epson UC matte black would also work.
> 
> "LK position:  UC LK, no changes.
> 
> "C position:  70% UC PK, 30% UC LK.
> 
> "LC position:  52% UC LK, 48% base.
> 
> "M position:  30% blue, 40% LK, 30% PK.
> 
> "LM position:  30% LK, 10% blue, 60% base.
> 
> "Y position:  88% LC, 7% Y, 5% M.
> 
> "This is not necessarily a final formula, but it's close and 
works.  I had
> no clogging or other problems with these experimental inksets.  
(Nor do I
> have clogging problems with MIS inksets.)"
> 
> >And how did you come to a starting point?
> 
> I'm not sure what you're asking here.
> 
> >I've been thinking of making inks myself.
> >My wife is a chemist and I'm sure we could do it.
> 
> I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  It thought that a 
small
> ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have a 
prejudice
> against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one has 
picked it
> up.
> 
> Note that I also made one based on the Epson Archival inkset that I 
thought
> might have more marketing potential for an ink seller.  However, in 
my
> initial fade testing the UC-based version did better than the Epson 
Archival
> version.  (The Epson Archival black is about like the old MIS VM 
black in
> fading.  I think it is actually a hybrid pigment-dye ink -- not in 
the same
> league with the current MIS and Epson matte and photo blacks.)
> 
> Have fun.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> ___________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Ben,
> > 
> > >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> > >lightfastness, ...
> > 
> > I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own testing.  
So, 
> I made a
> > fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as 
any), 
> and
> > started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll leave 
> the
> > predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is 
what 
> convinced
> > me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks were 
more
> > lightfast.
> > 
> > Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I still 
> do some
> > testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and even 
> to explore
> > non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> > 
> > The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments has 
> beat every
> > other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival pigments.  
> The carbon
> > pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining the 
> visual
> > density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm up a 
> bit,
> > however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
> unlike what we
> > see with other traditional B&W media.
> > 
> > Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) was 
> the
> > relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure carbon, 
> like the MIS
> > EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark storage 
> the paper
> > base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
> pigments.)
> > Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment for 
the 
> magenta.
> > Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as lightfast 
as 
> the
> > carbon.
> > 
> > Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's business 
> model is
> > such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does not 
do 
> its own
> > B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks that 
> act as the
> > inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during the 
last 
> few
> > years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come up 
> with.  So,
> > while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary 
purposes, 
> one
> > could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
> formulated.  On the
> > other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, and 
my 
> goal is
> > to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by collectors 
> as equal
> > to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this forum 
> the formula
> > for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the 
fade 
> test
> > results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but not 
> as well as
> > the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> > 
> > Hope this helps.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
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> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
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> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
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> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> the membership.
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> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and
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> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER

> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links

O.K., I anwsered a few of my own questions:

Your UT-7 clone do not need curves if youn just want nuetral through 
warm prints. Just use the Epson sliders in the driver. Correct?

The "ink particles" are 0.19 microns. Epson nozzels are 25 microns +- 
5 microns.

Have you made inks from "Scratch"?

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> >>I've published on this forum the formula
> >>for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.
> 
> >Can you point me to that post?
> 
> I posted this on 7/19/04 with the Subject, "UltraChrome-based 
variable-tone
> inkset":  
> 
> 
> "This is my 6-14 formula for the UC-VT (for the 2200) I recently 
tested.  It
> is very similar in its behavior to UT7, but the formulas are 
different.
> With sliders set to 0, the 50% patch of an EEM print had C,M,Y 
= .60, .61,
> .60.
> 
> "The base:  4 parts distilled water and 3 parts glycerol.  (I used 
Kic
> technical grade.)
> 
> "(In the past, I've had trouble finding a base that worked well 
with the UC
> inks.  The simple base I used for this inkset does the job and 
anyone can
> make it.)
> 
> "Blue used in mixing:  50% UC M, 50% UC C.
> 
> "K position:  I prefer Eboni.  Epson UC matte black would also work.
> 
> "LK position:  UC LK, no changes.
> 
> "C position:  70% UC PK, 30% UC LK.
> 
> "LC position:  52% UC LK, 48% base.
> 
> "M position:  30% blue, 40% LK, 30% PK.
> 
> "LM position:  30% LK, 10% blue, 60% base.
> 
> "Y position:  88% LC, 7% Y, 5% M.
> 
> "This is not necessarily a final formula, but it's close and 
works.  I had
> no clogging or other problems with these experimental inksets.  
(Nor do I
> have clogging problems with MIS inksets.)"
> 
> >And how did you come to a starting point?
> 
> I'm not sure what you're asking here.
> 
> >I've been thinking of making inks myself.
> >My wife is a chemist and I'm sure we could do it.
> 
> I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  It thought that a 
small
> ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have a 
prejudice
> against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one has 
picked it
> up.
> 
> Note that I also made one based on the Epson Archival inkset that I 
thought
> might have more marketing potential for an ink seller.  However, in 
my
> initial fade testing the UC-based version did better than the Epson 
Archival
> version.  (The Epson Archival black is about like the old MIS VM 
black in
> fading.  I think it is actually a hybrid pigment-dye ink -- not in 
the same
> league with the current MIS and Epson matte and photo blacks.)
> 
> Have fun.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> ___________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Ben,
> > 
> > >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> > >lightfastness, ...
> > 
> > I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own testing.  
So, 
> I made a
> > fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as 
any), 
> and
> > started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll leave 
> the
> > predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is 
what 
> convinced
> > me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks were 
more
> > lightfast.
> > 
> > Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I still 
> do some
> > testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and even 
> to explore
> > non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> > 
> > The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments has 
> beat every
> > other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival pigments.  
> The carbon
> > pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining the 
> visual
> > density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm up a 
> bit,
> > however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
> unlike what we
> > see with other traditional B&W media.
> > 
> > Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) was 
> the
> > relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure carbon, 
> like the MIS
> > EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark storage 
> the paper
> > base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
> pigments.)
> > Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment for 
the 
> magenta.
> > Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as lightfast 
as 
> the
> > carbon.
> > 
> > Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's business 
> model is
> > such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does not 
do 
> its own
> > B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks that 
> act as the
> > inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during the 
last 
> few
> > years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come up 
> with.  So,
> > while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary 
purposes, 
> one
> > could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
> formulated.  On the
> > other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, and 
my 
> goal is
> > to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by collectors 
> as equal
> > to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this forum 
> the formula
> > for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the 
fade 
> test
> > results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but not 
> as well as
> > the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> > 
> > Hope this helps.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER

> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Paul Roark writes:
 > [...]
 > I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  It thought that a small
 > ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have a prejudice
 > against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one has picked it
 > up.

Paul,

Where would someone get quantities of the UltraChrome inks?  Were you
draining 9600 cartridges, or?

g.

In the 10600 carts the price gets downright reasonable.

For experimenting I was mostly using what's left in 7600, carts -- up to 30
cc per cart.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

_________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: George Hartzell [mailto:hartzell@...] 
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 8:29 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] UC-based UT7 clone (was " MIS inks")


Paul Roark writes:
 > [...]
 > I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  I thought that a small
 > ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have a
prejudice
 > against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one has picked
it
 > up.

Paul,

Where would someone get quantities of the UltraChrome inks?  Were you
draining 9600 cartridges, or?

g.



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Scott,

>Are these inks anything more than carbon, glycerol, and water?

Yes.  The Epson pigs are coated and probably not available anywhere but from
Epson.  In addition to the coating, the pigments themselves may be more
proprietary pigment than carbon.  The base they use has some proprietary
chemicals in it that are not disclosed in the MSDS.  But, at the dilution I
used, the water and glycerol seems to work.  That mixture is the least
likely to have negative interactions with the Epson base, since their base
is that plus some other materials.

Even the un-coated pigs MIS uses are probably not pure carbon, even though
the supplier says they are "carbon."  

>If I know the make up of the ink, I can make it myself.

I'm not so ambitious as to mill my own.  

>Your UT-7 clone do not need curves if you just want neutral through 
>warm prints. Just use the Epson sliders in the driver. Correct?

Yes, the sliders give you some control, but curves give a lot more.  The UT7
curves work reasonably well with the clone inkset described. 

>The "ink particles" are 0.19 microns. Epson nozzles are 
>25 microns +- 5 microns.

Close.  The particles per se are not a problem.  Agglomerations are.  The
quality of the dispersant and other parts of the base are part of the trick.

>Have you made inks from "Scratch"?

I don't have a mill.  But after that, it's wide open, and filters to be sure
there are no clunkers are available.

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

______________________________________



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> >>I've published on this forum the formula
> >>for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.
> 
> >Can you point me to that post?
> 
> I posted this on 7/19/04 with the Subject, "UltraChrome-based 
variable-tone
> inkset":  
> 
> 
> "This is my 6-14 formula for the UC-VT (for the 2200) I recently 
tested.  It
> is very similar in its behavior to UT7, but the formulas are 
different.
> With sliders set to 0, the 50% patch of an EEM print had C,M,Y 
= .60, .61,
> .60.
> 
> "The base:  4 parts distilled water and 3 parts glycerol.  (I used 
Kic
> technical grade.)
> 
> "(In the past, I've had trouble finding a base that worked well 
with the UC
> inks.  The simple base I used for this inkset does the job and 
anyone can
> make it.)
> 
> "Blue used in mixing:  50% UC M, 50% UC C.
> 
> "K position:  I prefer Eboni.  Epson UC matte black would also work.
> 
> "LK position:  UC LK, no changes.
> 
> "C position:  70% UC PK, 30% UC LK.
> 
> "LC position:  52% UC LK, 48% base.
> 
> "M position:  30% blue, 40% LK, 30% PK.
> 
> "LM position:  30% LK, 10% blue, 60% base.
> 
> "Y position:  88% LC, 7% Y, 5% M.
> 
> "This is not necessarily a final formula, but it's close and 
works.  I had
> no clogging or other problems with these experimental inksets.  
(Nor do I
> have clogging problems with MIS inksets.)"
> 
> >And how did you come to a starting point?
> 
> I'm not sure what you're asking here.
> 
> >I've been thinking of making inks myself.
> >My wife is a chemist and I'm sure we could do it.
> 
> I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  It thought that a 
small
> ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have a 
prejudice
> against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one has 
picked it
> up.
> 
> Note that I also made one based on the Epson Archival inkset that I 
thought
> might have more marketing potential for an ink seller.  However, in 
my
> initial fade testing the UC-based version did better than the Epson 
Archival
> version.  (The Epson Archival black is about like the old MIS VM 
black in
> fading.  I think it is actually a hybrid pigment-dye ink -- not in 
the same
> league with the current MIS and Epson matte and photo blacks.)
> 
> Have fun.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> ___________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Ben,
> > 
> > >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> > >lightfastness, ...
> > 
> > I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own testing.  
So, 
> I made a
> > fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as 
any), 
> and
> > started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll leave 
> the
> > predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is 
what 
> convinced
> > me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks were 
more
> > lightfast.
> > 
> > Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I still 
> do some
> > testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and even 
> to explore
> > non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> > 
> > The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments has 
> beat every
> > other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival pigments.  
> The carbon
> > pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining the 
> visual
> > density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm up a 
> bit,
> > however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
> unlike what we
> > see with other traditional B&W media.
> > 
> > Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) was 
> the
> > relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure carbon, 
> like the MIS
> > EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark storage 
> the paper
> > base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
> pigments.)
> > Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment for 
the 
> magenta.
> > Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as lightfast 
as 
> the
> > carbon.
> > 
> > Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's business 
> model is
> > such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does not 
do 
> its own
> > B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks that 
> act as the
> > inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during the 
last 
> few
> > years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come up 
> with.  So,
> > while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary 
purposes, 
> one
> > could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
> formulated.  On the
> > other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, and 
my 
> goal is
> > to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by collectors 
> as equal
> > to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this forum 
> the formula
> > for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the 
fade 
> test
> > results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but not 
> as well as
> > the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> > 
> > Hope this helps.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
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> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
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> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
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> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

So, you haven't tried to analyize 
the Epson inks  (or others)with a Spectrometer to see their make up?

Unless Epson has invented those coatings and their properties have 
never been published, the Spectrometer should be able to show the 
make up.

I'm under the impression that a Spectrometer will tell the contents 
of a sample and at what percentage they are.

Scott




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> >Are these inks anything more than carbon, glycerol, and water?
> 
> Yes.  The Epson pigs are coated and probably not available anywhere 
but from
> Epson.  In addition to the coating, the pigments themselves may be 
more
> proprietary pigment than carbon.  The base they use has some 
proprietary
> chemicals in it that are not disclosed in the MSDS.  But, at the 
dilution I
> used, the water and glycerol seems to work.  That mixture is the 
least
> likely to have negative interactions with the Epson base, since 
their base
> is that plus some other materials.
> 
> Even the un-coated pigs MIS uses are probably not pure carbon, even 
though
> the supplier says they are "carbon."  
> 
> >If I know the make up of the ink, I can make it myself.
> 
> I'm not so ambitious as to mill my own.  
> 
> >Your UT-7 clone do not need curves if you just want neutral 
through 
> >warm prints. Just use the Epson sliders in the driver. Correct?
> 
> Yes, the sliders give you some control, but curves give a lot 
more.  The UT7
> curves work reasonably well with the clone inkset described. 
> 
> >The "ink particles" are 0.19 microns. Epson nozzles are 
> >25 microns +- 5 microns.
> 
> Close.  The particles per se are not a problem.  Agglomerations 
are.  The
> quality of the dispersant and other parts of the base are part of 
the trick.
> 
> >Have you made inks from "Scratch"?
> 
> I don't have a mill.  But after that, it's wide open, and filters 
to be sure
> there are no clunkers are available.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> ______________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Scott,
> > 
> > >>I've published on this forum the formula
> > >>for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.
> > 
> > >Can you point me to that post?
> > 
> > I posted this on 7/19/04 with the Subject, "UltraChrome-based 
> variable-tone
> > inkset":  
> > 
> > 
> > "This is my 6-14 formula for the UC-VT (for the 2200) I recently 
> tested.  It
> > is very similar in its behavior to UT7, but the formulas are 
> different.
> > With sliders set to 0, the 50% patch of an EEM print had C,M,Y 
> = .60, .61,
> > .60.
> > 
> > "The base:  4 parts distilled water and 3 parts glycerol.  (I 
used 
> Kic
> > technical grade.)
> > 
> > "(In the past, I've had trouble finding a base that worked well 
> with the UC
> > inks.  The simple base I used for this inkset does the job and 
> anyone can
> > make it.)
> > 
> > "Blue used in mixing:  50% UC M, 50% UC C.
> > 
> > "K position:  I prefer Eboni.  Epson UC matte black would also 
work.
> > 
> > "LK position:  UC LK, no changes.
> > 
> > "C position:  70% UC PK, 30% UC LK.
> > 
> > "LC position:  52% UC LK, 48% base.
> > 
> > "M position:  30% blue, 40% LK, 30% PK.
> > 
> > "LM position:  30% LK, 10% blue, 60% base.
> > 
> > "Y position:  88% LC, 7% Y, 5% M.
> > 
> > "This is not necessarily a final formula, but it's close and 
> works.  I had
> > no clogging or other problems with these experimental inksets.  
> (Nor do I
> > have clogging problems with MIS inksets.)"
> > 
> > >And how did you come to a starting point?
> > 
> > I'm not sure what you're asking here.
> > 
> > >I've been thinking of making inks myself.
> > >My wife is a chemist and I'm sure we could do it.
> > 
> > I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  It thought that 
a 
> small
> > ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have a 
> prejudice
> > against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one has 
> picked it
> > up.
> > 
> > Note that I also made one based on the Epson Archival inkset that 
I 
> thought
> > might have more marketing potential for an ink seller.  However, 
in 
> my
> > initial fade testing the UC-based version did better than the 
Epson 
> Archival
> > version.  (The Epson Archival black is about like the old MIS VM 
> black in
> > fading.  I think it is actually a hybrid pigment-dye ink -- not 
in 
> the same
> > league with the current MIS and Epson matte and photo blacks.)
> > 
> > Have fun.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com 
> > ___________________________________
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > Ben,
> > > 
> > > >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> > > >lightfastness, ...
> > > 
> > > I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own testing.  
> So, 
> > I made a
> > > fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as 
> any), 
> > and
> > > started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll 
leave 
> > the
> > > predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is 
> what 
> > convinced
> > > me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks were 
> more
> > > lightfast.
> > > 
> > > Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I 
still 
> > do some
> > > testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and 
even 
> > to explore
> > > non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> > > 
> > > The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments 
has 
> > beat every
> > > other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival 
pigments.  
> > The carbon
> > > pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining 
the 
> > visual
> > > density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm up 
a 
> > bit,
> > > however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
> > unlike what we
> > > see with other traditional B&W media.
> > > 
> > > Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) 
was 
> > the
> > > relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure carbon, 
> > like the MIS
> > > EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark 
storage 
> > the paper
> > > base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
> > pigments.)
> > > Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment for 
> the 
> > magenta.
> > > Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as 
lightfast 
> as 
> > the
> > > carbon.
> > > 
> > > Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's business 
> > model is
> > > such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does 
not 
> do 
> > its own
> > > B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks 
that 
> > act as the
> > > inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during the 
> last 
> > few
> > > years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come up 
> > with.  So,
> > > while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary 
> purposes, 
> > one
> > > could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
> > formulated.  On the
> > > other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, and 
> my 
> > goal is
> > > to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by 
collectors 
> > as equal
> > > to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this 
forum 
> > the formula
> > > for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the 
> fade 
> > test
> > > results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but 
not 
> > as well as
> > > the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps.
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
> wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages 
> to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital 
> B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group 
> Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
> section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE 
> PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS,
> > GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
> THE  "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN 
ADVISED 
> OF THE
> > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
> INABILITY
> > TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> ACCESS TO OR
> > ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
> CONDUCT OF ANY
> > THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
> OTHER
> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER

> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Scott,

That would be interesting.  I have not had access to that type of equipment.
Let us know what you find.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: scott_now_coming [mailto:scott_now_coming@...] 
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 11:09 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: UC-based UT7 clone (was " MIS inks")



So, you haven't tried to analyize 
the Epson inks  (or others)with a Spectrometer to see their make up?

Unless Epson has invented those coatings and their properties have 
never been published, the Spectrometer should be able to show the 
make up.

I'm under the impression that a Spectrometer will tell the contents 
of a sample and at what percentage they are.

Scott




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> >Are these inks anything more than carbon, glycerol, and water?
> 
> Yes.  The Epson pigs are coated and probably not available anywhere 
but from
> Epson.  In addition to the coating, the pigments themselves may be 
more
> proprietary pigment than carbon.  The base they use has some 
proprietary
> chemicals in it that are not disclosed in the MSDS.  But, at the 
dilution I
> used, the water and glycerol seems to work.  That mixture is the 
least
> likely to have negative interactions with the Epson base, since 
their base
> is that plus some other materials.
> 
> Even the un-coated pigs MIS uses are probably not pure carbon, even 
though
> the supplier says they are "carbon."  
> 
> >If I know the make up of the ink, I can make it myself.
> 
> I'm not so ambitious as to mill my own.  
> 
> >Your UT-7 clone do not need curves if you just want neutral 
through 
> >warm prints. Just use the Epson sliders in the driver. Correct?
> 
> Yes, the sliders give you some control, but curves give a lot 
more.  The UT7
> curves work reasonably well with the clone inkset described. 
> 
> >The "ink particles" are 0.19 microns. Epson nozzles are 
> >25 microns +- 5 microns.
> 
> Close.  The particles per se are not a problem.  Agglomerations 
are.  The
> quality of the dispersant and other parts of the base are part of 
the trick.
> 
> >Have you made inks from "Scratch"?
> 
> I don't have a mill.  But after that, it's wide open, and filters 
to be sure
> there are no clunkers are available.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> ______________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Scott,
> > 
> > >>I've published on this forum the formula
> > >>for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.
> > 
> > >Can you point me to that post?
> > 
> > I posted this on 7/19/04 with the Subject, "UltraChrome-based 
> variable-tone
> > inkset":  
> > 
> > 
> > "This is my 6-14 formula for the UC-VT (for the 2200) I recently 
> tested.  It
> > is very similar in its behavior to UT7, but the formulas are 
> different.
> > With sliders set to 0, the 50% patch of an EEM print had C,M,Y 
> = .60, .61,
> > .60.
> > 
> > "The base:  4 parts distilled water and 3 parts glycerol.  (I 
used 
> Kic
> > technical grade.)
> > 
> > "(In the past, I've had trouble finding a base that worked well 
> with the UC
> > inks.  The simple base I used for this inkset does the job and 
> anyone can
> > make it.)
> > 
> > "Blue used in mixing:  50% UC M, 50% UC C.
> > 
> > "K position:  I prefer Eboni.  Epson UC matte black would also 
work.
> > 
> > "LK position:  UC LK, no changes.
> > 
> > "C position:  70% UC PK, 30% UC LK.
> > 
> > "LC position:  52% UC LK, 48% base.
> > 
> > "M position:  30% blue, 40% LK, 30% PK.
> > 
> > "LM position:  30% LK, 10% blue, 60% base.
> > 
> > "Y position:  88% LC, 7% Y, 5% M.
> > 
> > "This is not necessarily a final formula, but it's close and 
> works.  I had
> > no clogging or other problems with these experimental inksets.  
> (Nor do I
> > have clogging problems with MIS inksets.)"
> > 
> > >And how did you come to a starting point?
> > 
> > I'm not sure what you're asking here.
> > 
> > >I've been thinking of making inks myself.
> > >My wife is a chemist and I'm sure we could do it.
> > 
> > I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  It thought that 
a 
> small
> > ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have a 
> prejudice
> > against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one has 
> picked it
> > up.
> > 
> > Note that I also made one based on the Epson Archival inkset that 
I 
> thought
> > might have more marketing potential for an ink seller.  However, 
in 
> my
> > initial fade testing the UC-based version did better than the 
Epson 
> Archival
> > version.  (The Epson Archival black is about like the old MIS VM 
> black in
> > fading.  I think it is actually a hybrid pigment-dye ink -- not 
in 
> the same
> > league with the current MIS and Epson matte and photo blacks.)
> > 
> > Have fun.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com 
> > ___________________________________
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > Ben,
> > > 
> > > >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> > > >lightfastness, ...
> > > 
> > > I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own testing.  
> So, 
> > I made a
> > > fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as 
> any), 
> > and
> > > started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll 
leave 
> > the
> > > predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is 
> what 
> > convinced
> > > me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks were 
> more
> > > lightfast.
> > > 
> > > Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I 
still 
> > do some
> > > testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and 
even 
> > to explore
> > > non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> > > 
> > > The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments 
has 
> > beat every
> > > other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival 
pigments.  
> > The carbon
> > > pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining 
the 
> > visual
> > > density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm up 
a 
> > bit,
> > > however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
> > unlike what we
> > > see with other traditional B&W media.
> > > 
> > > Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) 
was 
> > the
> > > relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure carbon, 
> > like the MIS
> > > EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark 
storage 
> > the paper
> > > base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
> > pigments.)
> > > Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment for 
> the 
> > magenta.
> > > Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as 
lightfast 
> as 
> > the
> > > carbon.
> > > 
> > > Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's business 
> > model is
> > > such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does 
not 
> do 
> > its own
> > > B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks 
that 
> > act as the
> > > inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during the 
> last 
> > few
> > > years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come up 
> > with.  So,
> > > while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary 
> purposes, 
> > one
> > > could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
> > formulated.  On the
> > > other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, and 
> my 
> > goal is
> > > to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by 
collectors 
> > as equal
> > > to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this 
forum 
> > the formula
> > > for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the 
> fade 
> > test
> > > results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but 
not 
> > as well as
> > > the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps.
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
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You mentioned using the inks from the Epson 10600 series.

Isn't that a different ink than UC and not as archival ?

Scott



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Scott,
> 
> That would be interesting.  I have not had access to that type of 
equipment.
> Let us know what you find.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scott_now_coming [mailto:scott_now_coming@y...] 
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 11:09 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: UC-based UT7 clone (was " MIS inks")
> 
> 
> 
> So, you haven't tried to analyize 
> the Epson inks  (or others)with a Spectrometer to see their make up?
> 
> Unless Epson has invented those coatings and their properties have 
> never been published, the Spectrometer should be able to show the 
> make up.
> 
> I'm under the impression that a Spectrometer will tell the contents 
> of a sample and at what percentage they are.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Scott,
> > 
> > >Are these inks anything more than carbon, glycerol, and water?
> > 
> > Yes.  The Epson pigs are coated and probably not available 
anywhere 
> but from
> > Epson.  In addition to the coating, the pigments themselves may 
be 
> more
> > proprietary pigment than carbon.  The base they use has some 
> proprietary
> > chemicals in it that are not disclosed in the MSDS.  But, at the 
> dilution I
> > used, the water and glycerol seems to work.  That mixture is the 
> least
> > likely to have negative interactions with the Epson base, since 
> their base
> > is that plus some other materials.
> > 
> > Even the un-coated pigs MIS uses are probably not pure carbon, 
even 
> though
> > the supplier says they are "carbon."  
> > 
> > >If I know the make up of the ink, I can make it myself.
> > 
> > I'm not so ambitious as to mill my own.  
> > 
> > >Your UT-7 clone do not need curves if you just want neutral 
> through 
> > >warm prints. Just use the Epson sliders in the driver. Correct?
> > 
> > Yes, the sliders give you some control, but curves give a lot 
> more.  The UT7
> > curves work reasonably well with the clone inkset described. 
> > 
> > >The "ink particles" are 0.19 microns. Epson nozzles are 
> > >25 microns +- 5 microns.
> > 
> > Close.  The particles per se are not a problem.  Agglomerations 
> are.  The
> > quality of the dispersant and other parts of the base are part of 
> the trick.
> > 
> > >Have you made inks from "Scratch"?
> > 
> > I don't have a mill.  But after that, it's wide open, and filters 
> to be sure
> > there are no clunkers are available.
> > 
> > Good luck.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com 
> > 
> > ______________________________________
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > Scott,
> > > 
> > > >>I've published on this forum the formula
> > > >>for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.
> > > 
> > > >Can you point me to that post?
> > > 
> > > I posted this on 7/19/04 with the Subject, "UltraChrome-based 
> > variable-tone
> > > inkset":  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > "This is my 6-14 formula for the UC-VT (for the 2200) I 
recently 
> > tested.  It
> > > is very similar in its behavior to UT7, but the formulas are 
> > different.
> > > With sliders set to 0, the 50% patch of an EEM print had C,M,Y 
> > = .60, .61,
> > > .60.
> > > 
> > > "The base:  4 parts distilled water and 3 parts glycerol.  (I 
> used 
> > Kic
> > > technical grade.)
> > > 
> > > "(In the past, I've had trouble finding a base that worked well 
> > with the UC
> > > inks.  The simple base I used for this inkset does the job and 
> > anyone can
> > > make it.)
> > > 
> > > "Blue used in mixing:  50% UC M, 50% UC C.
> > > 
> > > "K position:  I prefer Eboni.  Epson UC matte black would also 
> work.
> > > 
> > > "LK position:  UC LK, no changes.
> > > 
> > > "C position:  70% UC PK, 30% UC LK.
> > > 
> > > "LC position:  52% UC LK, 48% base.
> > > 
> > > "M position:  30% blue, 40% LK, 30% PK.
> > > 
> > > "LM position:  30% LK, 10% blue, 60% base.
> > > 
> > > "Y position:  88% LC, 7% Y, 5% M.
> > > 
> > > "This is not necessarily a final formula, but it's close and 
> > works.  I had
> > > no clogging or other problems with these experimental inksets.  
> > (Nor do I
> > > have clogging problems with MIS inksets.)"
> > > 
> > > >And how did you come to a starting point?
> > > 
> > > I'm not sure what you're asking here.
> > > 
> > > >I've been thinking of making inks myself.
> > > >My wife is a chemist and I'm sure we could do it.
> > > 
> > > I'm sure most on this list could make the above.  It thought 
that 
> a 
> > small
> > > ink seller might want to take on this inkset for those who have 
a 
> > prejudice
> > > against third-party inks or prefer coated pigs.  But, no one 
has 
> > picked it
> > > up.
> > > 
> > > Note that I also made one based on the Epson Archival inkset 
that 
> I 
> > thought
> > > might have more marketing potential for an ink seller.  
However, 
> in 
> > my
> > > initial fade testing the UC-based version did better than the 
> Epson 
> > Archival
> > > version.  (The Epson Archival black is about like the old MIS 
VM 
> > black in
> > > fading.  I think it is actually a hybrid pigment-dye ink -- not 
> in 
> > the same
> > > league with the current MIS and Epson matte and photo blacks.)
> > > 
> > > Have fun.
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com 
> > > ___________________________________
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul 
Roark" 
> > > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > > Ben,
> > > > 
> > > > >...wondering if anyone ... wanted to comment on issues like 
> > > > >lightfastness, ...
> > > > 
> > > > I concluded several years ago that I had to do my own 
testing.  
> > So, 
> > > I made a
> > > > fluorescent light fader (cheap but probably about as good as 
> > any), 
> > > and
> > > > started doing carefully-controlled comparison tests.  (I'll 
> leave 
> > > the
> > > > predictions of years of display to Wilhelm and RIT.)  That is 
> > what 
> > > convinced
> > > > me to switch from Piezo to MIS inks.  The cheaper MIS inks 
were 
> > more
> > > > lightfast.
> > > > 
> > > > Now both companies have new and very lightfast pigments.  I 
> still 
> > > do some
> > > > testing, however, to see if anything better comes around and 
> even 
> > > to explore
> > > > non-inkset sources of pigments.  
> > > > 
> > > > The bottom line is that the MIS UltraTone family of pigments 
> has 
> > > beat every
> > > > other inkset I've tested, including the Epson Archival 
> pigments.  
> > > The carbon
> > > > pigments seem to be the very best in terms of their retaining 
> the 
> > > visual
> > > > density after lots of light exposure.  The carbon does warm 
up 
> a 
> > > bit,
> > > > however.  I think the amount of warming is acceptable and not 
> > > unlike what we
> > > > see with other traditional B&W media.
> > > > 
> > > > Last year the magenta (which is in the cool and neutral inks) 
> was 
> > > the
> > > > relative weakling.  So, at that time I recommended pure 
carbon, 
> > > like the MIS
> > > > EZ-Warm, for the best lightfastness.  (For archival, dark 
> storage 
> > > the paper
> > > > base and storage conditions are the limiting factors, not the 
> > > pigments.)
> > > > Now the latest formulations have substituted a new pigment 
for 
> > the 
> > > magenta.
> > > > Because of this, the new UT neutral inks are almost as 
> lightfast 
> > as 
> > > the
> > > > carbon.
> > > > 
> > > > Of course, I may not be totally un-biased here.  MIS's 
business 
> > > model is
> > > > such that it simply produces what the market wants.  It does 
> not 
> > do 
> > > its own
> > > > B&W inkset designs, but it is an expert in finding good inks 
> that 
> > > act as the
> > > > inputs for the B&W inksets.  As a practical matter, during 
the 
> > last 
> > > few
> > > > years, the B&W inksets have been formulations that I've come 
up 
> > > with.  So,
> > > > while I'm independent and do this for my own non-monetary 
> > purposes, 
> > > one
> > > > could argue that I may have a bias toward the inksets I 
> > > formulated.  On the
> > > > other hand, I formulated them in response to my fade tests, 
and 
> > my 
> > > goal is
> > > > to get the medium to the point where it is accepted by 
> collectors 
> > > as equal
> > > > to the silver print.  Additionally, I've published on this 
> forum 
> > > the formula
> > > > for a UT7-clone based on Epson UC inks.  I also published the 
> > fade 
> > > test
> > > > results, and the UC-based UT7 did great in their delta e, but 
> not 
> > > as well as
> > > > the MIS inks in density reduction (fading).
> > > > 
> > > > Hope this helps.
> > > > 
> > > > Paul
> > > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> > resources as
> > > they are often being updated.
> > > 
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> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
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>You mentioned using the inks from the Epson 10600 series.
>Isn't that a different ink than UC and not as archival?

I think you'll find the UC ink for the large printers is the same, but the
LK is not used.  See
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/BuyInk.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=2296669
0 .  Check the MSDS's to be sure they are the same.  These are listed at
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/Supportmsdsmain.jsp?BV_UseBVCooki
e=yes    

The 500 ml carts are often sold for about $150 or $0.30/ml.  This is about
twice the MIS bulk price, but cheaper than the PiezoTone ink prices.  For
the LK, the 220 ML carts may be the best you can do.  Those commonly sell
for about $100, but I've heard there are better prices.  (Tom B., are you
there?)  

On the other hand, did you ever wonder how LK and PK are related?  If the PK
is diluted with base, the price becomes very low indeed.  Recall that light
ink is mostly just expensive water.  Ink sellers love light inks.

The economics of an Epson UC or Archival-based B&W inkset might not be bad
at all.  The question for me is whether the pigs are better than the MIS
pigs.  Many will presume they are.  My fade tests may indicate just the
opposite.  However, if a small ink seller wanted to do something
interesting, it's all there.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I'm using a C86 and MIS EZN inks.  It appears that only one ink is 
working, I've tried all the setup properties reconmmended by Paul 
Roark.  When I reinstalled my epson color inks they worked 
beautifully, without even changing by printing properties.  Any 
ideas?

You have an air bubble.

Run a nozzel check or two. If that doesn't work, let the printer set 
for a few hours and then try another nozzel check.

DO NOT USE THE CLEANING CYCLES! That will only waste ink.

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jgm818" 
<jgm818@a...> wrote:

> 
> I'm using a C86 and MIS EZN inks.  It appears that only one ink is 
> working, I've tried all the setup properties reconmmended by Paul 
> Roark.  When I reinstalled my epson color inks they worked 
> beautifully, without even changing by printing properties.  Any 
> ideas?

If these are the new EZ-refill type carts, using a bottom-fill adapter (with
its snout shortended to 7 mm) to pull the air out the bottom -- that is
"prime" the cart" -- is the best way to eliminate what can be a large
bubble.  I always prime the EZ refill and sponge-less carts I fill.  They
almost always then have a perfect initial nozzle check.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: scott_now_coming [mailto:scott_now_coming@...]
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 6:42 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: MIS inks
> 
> 
> 
> You have an air bubble.
> 
> Run a nozzel check or two. If that doesn't work, let the printer set
> for a few hours and then try another nozzel check.
> 
> DO NOT USE THE CLEANING CYCLES! That will only waste ink.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jgm818"
> <jgm818@a...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm using a C86 and MIS EZN inks.  It appears that only one ink is
> > working, I've tried all the setup properties reconmmended by Paul
> > Roark.  When I reinstalled my epson color inks they worked
> > beautifully, without even changing by printing properties.  Any
> > ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

I received my new 1280 spongeless carts yesterday and installed them. 
The red light came on and stayed on. I called MIS tech support and 
was given a suggestion that helped me solve that problem. On the cart 
there is a yellow square of plastic that has the chip attached to it. 
They said to slightly move it down and insert a piece of business 
card thick paper at the top so the yellow chipholder would not quite 
slide all the way back up. It took two pieces of card paper but that 
allowed the chip reader fingers on the printer to make correct 
contact with the chip. This batch of carts was returned to the 
manufacturer (all but mine?) and the newer batch that they have is 
correctly manufactured to eliminate that .025 inch error. They were 
very cordial and efficient in solving my problem even though it was 
right a their closing time.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> If these are the new EZ-refill type carts, using a bottom-fill 
adapter (with
> its snout shortended to 7 mm) to pull the air out the bottom -- 
that is
> "prime" the cart" -- is the best way to eliminate what can be a 
large
> bubble.  I always prime the EZ refill and sponge-less carts I 
fill.  They

> almost always then have a perfect initial nozzle check.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Did the top, clear label-like cover intrude at all in the fill hole?  I
reamed mine out a bit to be sure the stoppers would seal.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnny Eades [mailto:jeades1@...]
> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:48 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: MIS inks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I received my new 1280 spongeless carts yesterday and installed them.
> The red light came on and stayed on. I called MIS tech support and
> was given a suggestion that helped me solve that problem. On the cart
> there is a yellow square of plastic that has the chip attached to it.
> They said to slightly move it down and insert a piece of business
> card thick paper at the top so the yellow chipholder would not quite
> slide all the way back up. It took two pieces of card paper but that
> allowed the chip reader fingers on the printer to make correct
> contact with the chip. This batch of carts was returned to the
> manufacturer (all but mine?) and the newer batch that they have is
> correctly manufactured to eliminate that .025 inch error. They were
> very cordial and efficient in solving my problem even though it was
> right a their closing time.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > If these are the new EZ-refill type carts, using a bottom-fill
> adapter (with
> > its snout shortended to 7 mm) to pull the air out the bottom --
> that is
> > "prime" the cart" -- is the best way to eliminate what can be a
> large
> > bubble.  I always prime the EZ refill and sponge-less carts I
> fill.  They
> > almost always then have a perfect initial nozzle check.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Paul,

Yes it did and I did the same thing. I wonder if that plastic sheet 
thing (label) is needed. I see some type of channels underneath, but 
can't tell if the sheet is all that covers them or not. I don't want 
to take it off and later find all kinds of ink everywhere when I go 
to refill it next.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Did the top, clear label-like cover intrude at all in the fill 
hole?  I
> reamed mine out a bit to be sure the stoppers would seal.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Johnny Eades [mailto:jeades1@s...]
> > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:48 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: MIS inks
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I received my new 1280 spongeless carts yesterday and installed 
them.
> > The red light came on and stayed on. I called MIS tech support and
> > was given a suggestion that helped me solve that problem. On the 
cart
> > there is a yellow square of plastic that has the chip attached to 
it.
> > They said to slightly move it down and insert a piece of business
> > card thick paper at the top so the yellow chipholder would not 
quite
> > slide all the way back up. It took two pieces of card paper but 
that
> > allowed the chip reader fingers on the printer to make correct
> > contact with the chip. This batch of carts was returned to the
> > manufacturer (all but mine?) and the newer batch that they have is
> > correctly manufactured to eliminate that .025 inch error. They 
were
> > very cordial and efficient in solving my problem even though it 
was
> > right a their closing time.
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > If these are the new EZ-refill type carts, using a bottom-fill
> > adapter (with
> > > its snout shortended to 7 mm) to pull the air out the bottom --
> > that is
> > > "prime" the cart" -- is the best way to eliminate what can be a
> > large
> > > bubble.  I always prime the EZ refill and sponge-less carts I
> > fill.  They
> > > almost always then have a perfect initial nozzle check.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner
> > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS 
OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) 
THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
(ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR 
DATA; (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE

> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >

Paul, I found getting those little stoppers in to be a real PITA until
I figured it out. I also had to trim just a bit of the clear
label-like cover. And I still couldn't get them in until I learned to
do a little rotational massage action with my finger tip. 

I suggested to MIS that that include a note saying the little rubber
plugs are not preinserted the way the instructions indicate. I ripped
the clear label-like cover off the first one looking for the plug to
remove. Finally found them in a bag in the trash.  

But these look like the slickest thing to come along since bottled beer.

Bob Michaels 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> Did the top, clear label-like cover intrude at all in the fill hole?  I
> reamed mine out a bit to be sure the stoppers would seal.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

>... I wonder if that plastic sheet
> thing (label) is needed. I see some type of channels underneath, but
> can't tell if the sheet is all that covers them or not. ...

It looks to me as if the "label" is actually a necessary part of the cart.
At some point I'm sure I'll wreck one and take the opportunity to take it
apart and see what makes it tick.

I've asked them to see if they can find a large format version of these
carts.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

______________________________

> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Did the top, clear label-like cover intrude at all in the fill
> hole?  I
> > reamed mine out a bit to be sure the stoppers would seal.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Johnny Eades [mailto:jeades1@s...]
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:48 AM
> > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: MIS inks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I received my new 1280 spongeless carts yesterday and installed
> them.
> > > The red light came on and stayed on. I called MIS tech support and
> > > was given a suggestion that helped me solve that problem. On the
> cart
> > > there is a yellow square of plastic that has the chip attached to
> it.
> > > They said to slightly move it down and insert a piece of business
> > > card thick paper at the top so the yellow chipholder would not
> quite
> > > slide all the way back up. It took two pieces of card paper but
> that
> > > allowed the chip reader fingers on the printer to make correct
> > > contact with the chip. This batch of carts was returned to the
> > > manufacturer (all but mine?) and the newer batch that they have is
> > > correctly manufactured to eliminate that .025 inch error. They
> were
> > > very cordial and efficient in solving my problem even though it
> was
> > > right a their closing time.
> > >
> > > Your friend in Photography,
> > >
> > > Johnny
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> > > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > > If these are the new EZ-refill type carts, using a bottom-fill
> > > adapter (with
> > > > its snout shortended to 7 mm) to pull the air out the bottom --
> > > that is
> > > > "prime" the cart" -- is the best way to eliminate what can be a
> > > large
> > > > bubble.  I always prime the EZ refill and sponge-less carts I
> > > fill.  They
> > > > almost always then have a perfect initial nozzle check.
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as
> > > they are often being updated.
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to
> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same
> > > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep
> > > them short.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames.
> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > > membership without notice.
> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
> digital B&W
> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
> removed from
> > > the membership.
> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
> and
> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the
> group Owner
> > > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
> Files
> > > section:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > >
> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT
> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER"
> AND
> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
> LIABLE TO
> > > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL
> OR
> > > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS
> OF
> > > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF
> THE
> > > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> HAVE BEEN
> > > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
> THE USE
> > > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP;
> (ii)
> > > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR
> DATA; (iii)
> > > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT
> > > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE
> > > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

A clear, large format version would be great, particularly if one could 
visually monitor ink levels without having to remove the carts.  I 
don't find the chip/status monitor system very reliable and I've 
resorted to checking ink levels by tracking weight with a digital 
scale.

Carl

On Mar 19, 2005, at 10:00 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

>
>
>> ... I wonder if that plastic sheet
>> thing (label) is needed. I see some type of channels underneath, but
>> can't tell if the sheet is all that covers them or not. ...
>
> It looks to me as if the "label" is actually a necessary part of the 
> cart.
> At some point I'm sure I'll wreck one and take the opportunity to take 
> it
> apart and see what makes it tick.
>
> I've asked them to see if they can find a large format version of these
> carts.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >... I wonder if that plastic sheet
> > thing (label) is needed. I see some type of channels underneath, 
but
> > can't tell if the sheet is all that covers them or not. ...
> 
> It looks to me as if the "label" is actually a necessary part of 
the cart.
> At some point I'm sure I'll wreck one and take the opportunity to 
take it
> apart and see what makes it tick.
> 
> I've asked them to see if they can find a large format version of 
these
> carts.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> ______________________________
> 


Aren't all the large format carts a bag in box style?

You need to take the label off and have the small pin hole free and open.
The other larger filler hole must be sealed with the plug.

> From: Johnny Eades <jeades1@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:08:05 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: MIS inks
> 
> 
> 
> Paul,
> 
> Yes it did and I did the same thing. I wonder if that plastic sheet
> thing (label) is needed. I see some type of channels underneath, but
> can't tell if the sheet is all that covers them or not. I don't want
> to take it off and later find all kinds of ink everywhere when I go
> to refill it next.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
>