Digital BW, The Print

Paul, 

Thanks to you and everybody for comments clarifying printer 
quality as relates to Cone inks.  

I've been following your work with variable-tone ink sets.  
Beautiful.   I am ordering a CIS  for my  new 1160.  Do you have 
any recommendation as to the Cone or MIS system being better 
for variable-tone work?  Once I buy a system, I want to stick with it 
so I would like to make an informed choice to begin with.

Yours, Frank

http://www.culturalvisions.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Frank,
> 
> For some reason I didn't receive your post.  I saw it only 
indirectly in
> Martin's.
> 
> I don't mean to say that the 3000 is equal to the 1160 for Piezo 
work.  The
> Piezo list is full of horror stories about the 3000 and the Piezo 
driver.
> Additionally, my comments are limited to Archival Matte being 
fed in through
> the front so that there is better contact with the roller.  The 3000 
and
> thick paper also seem to be an invitation to trouble.
> 
> Additionally, the 1160's smaller dots with the Epson driver are 
a clear
> advantage for that machine, at least in theory and on test 
strips.  However,
> for large prints, I can't see any dots that are attributable to the 
3000.
> For postcards I'll continue to use my 1160.
> 
> So, the limit of my comment about 3000 being "better" than the 
1160 is that
> with my particular samples of these machines, when both use 
the Epson driver
> and the 3000 is fed from the front with Archival Matte, my 3000 
seems to be
> less inclined to band than my 1160.  For Piezo work I'd still 
probably not
> even bother with the 3000.
> 
> Paul
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: mwesley250@e... [mailto:mwesley250@e...]
>   Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 11:15 AM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Greetings -- 7000 (& 3000)
> 
> 
>   Frank,
> 
>   About a week back Ron Landucci (Post #79) said essentially 
the same
>   thing. He reported that he really couldn't see any difference 
between
>   the desktop printers output and the 7000 under standard 
viewing
>   conditions.
> 
>   Martin
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., frank@c... wrote:
>   > Hi Paul,  It's good to find you on this list.  I wanted to tell you
>   > about my friend's switch from 3000 to 7000.  His prints are 
great,
>   but
>   > when I compare the same file on each printer side by side 
(cone
>   > system), I'm hard pressed to say the 7000 is significantly 
better.
>   > Through a loup it looks tighter, but that 3000 has held it's 
own
>   over
>   > the years.
>   >
>   > Incidently, I just bought an 1160 and have not set it up yet for
>   Piezo,
>   > but I was disappointed to hear that you think the 3000 is 
superior.
>   I
>   > thought I was buying "state of the art" for Piezo work.  The 
3000
>   must
>   > have the longest production run of any Epson printer.
>   >
>   > Frank
>   > http://www.culturalvsions.com
>   >
>   >
>   > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
>   > paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>   > > Todd,
>   > >
>   > > I have not seen any direct, objective comparisons 
between the
>   7000 and the
>   > > smaller-dot Epsons to know whether there is a visible
>   difference.  The
>   > > prints and test strips I've seen from the 7000 using the 
Epson
>   driver are
>   > > excellent, so I assume it will be visually equal to the 
others and
>   > > presumably better than the alternative for large prints -- 
the
>   3000.  (I
>   > > assume no one would buy either of these unless you 
want to do
>   large prints.
>   > > For me, the 16x20 has always been my target size, so I 
now have a
>   3000 as
>   > > well as an 1160.)
>   > >
>   > > I don't know how the dot sizes of the 3000 and 7000 
compare, but
>   I assume
>   > > the 7000 is smaller.  Additionally, the 7000 with the 
variable-
>   tone inkset
>   > > will be a true hextone -- which does make a small 
difference;
>   more shades of
>   > > ink allow for smoother outputs.   (Note that the Piezo 7000
>   inkset is really
>   > > just a quad -- 4 total shades, not 6.  The nozzle checks 
with
>   Piezo ink
>   > > indicate that the light/photo shade inks are the same 
densities
>   as the
>   > > others.  That is, the magenta and light/photo magenta are 
the
>   same.)
>   > >
>   > > As good as I expect the 7000 to be, I want to add that I've 
been
>   pleasantly
>   > > surprised at the high quality of the 3000 output.  That 
printer
>   has large
>   > > dots and a bad reputation for paper handling and banding
>   (especially with
>   > > the Piezo driver).  In test strips using the variable-tone 
inkset
>   I can see
>   > > some graininess, but in 16x20s, I don't see any evidence 
of it.
>   My medium
>   > > format Tmax 100 negatives appear to be the limiting 
factors, not
>   the 3000's
>   > > dots.  Using Archival Matte fed from the front, the printer 
feeds
>   perfectly
>   > > and has no banding.  (I think it is actually better than my
>   1160.)  (I have
>   > > a pre-release 24" roll of Archival Matte.  It'll be released 
next
>   month by
>   > > Epson.)
>   > >
>   > > You'll notice that for the 3000 I have two "NC" 
(neutral-cool)
>   curves.  What
>   > > I found is that different curves produce dots at different
>   places.  Contrary
>   > > to my expectations, the dots are not visible in the 
highlights
>   (where the
>   > > Epson ink in the 3000 shows bad dots).  Rather, the dots 
show up
>   in the
>   > > midtones or dark tones.  On most of the curves, the dots 
are so
>   mild as to
>   > > be irrelevant.  With the NC curves, however, I decided to 
make
>   two versions
>   > > so that if the dots do show in a print, the other curve can 
be
>   used and the
>   > > dots may then be in a place where they will not show.
>   > >
>   > > So, to get back to the 7000, I expect it will be a great printer
>   with the
>   > > variable-tone inkset.  However, if one can't afford the 7000, 
and
>   if you can
>   > > live with paper thin enough to feed from the front, I would 
not
>   hesitate to
>   > > buy a 3000.  For 16x20s it is the cheap way to go, and my 
16x20
>   Archival
>   > > Matte prints look great.  (I may need to remove a pizza 
wheel,
>   but I haven't
>   > > bothered yet.)
>   > >
>   > > Paul
>   > > http://www.PaulRoark.com
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >   -----Original Message-----
>   > >   From: Todd Flashner [mailto:tflash@e...]
>   > >   Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 10:20 PM
>   > >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>   > >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Greetings
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >   Welcome back Paul. Alaska Huh? Lucky boy.
>   > >
>   > >   Looks like MIS is up to good things.
>   > >
>   > >   Question: with Piezo, the 7000 seems to be the top of the 
line
>   from a
>   > >   quality-output point of view (as well as everything else 
too, I
>   suppose) -
>   > >   is that true with your variable-tone method too, or with it's
>   larger
>   > > droplet
>   > >   size than some of the smaller printers, does the 7000's 
output
>   suffer
>   > >   relative to them?
>   > >
>   > >   Todd
>   > >
>   > >   > Hi,
>   > >   >
>   > >   > I'm back, and glad to see that there is a new and 
independent
>   forum for
>   > >   > discussing B&W printing technologies.  The Piezo 
forum has
>   lots of
>   > >   > knowledgeable people, but it's really only for Piezo 
inks.
>   The
>   > > Epson-inkjet
>   > >   > forum is also very useful, but I'm really just into B&W, 
and
>   most of the
>   > >   > discussions there are not that relevant.
>   > >   >
>   > >   > How does this forum compare to the DigitalSilver@t... 
forum?
>   > >   >
>   > >   > At any rate, I'm back.
>   > >   >
>   > >   > It looks like MIS has posted some of the variable-tone
>   (their "variable
>   > >   > mix") materials.  I'll be finishing the 1280 curves soon.
>   The 7000 is
>   > > also
>   > >   > now in the works. (Interestingly, a 2000 user is 
switching in
>   the
>   > >   > variable-tone inkset.  I had never though of that as a 3rd
>   party ink
>   > >   > machine.)
>   > >   >
>   > >   > Paul
>   > >   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
>   > >   >
>   > >   >
>   > >   >
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