Digital BW, The Print

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> yohnnyboy wrote:
> 
> >In a previous post I stated that spraying prints made on Epson 
> >Premium Luster with MIS ultratone inks made a huge night and day 
> >difference in the appearance of the deep blacks. I used Golden 
> >Archival Varnish spray with gloss finish. I measured the dmax with 
> >these results. The first number is the density of the unsprayed 
> >print. The second value is the sprayed print.
> >
> >
> >0% 0.1 0.1
> >10% 0.23 0.27
> >20% 0.35 0.39
> >30% 0.48 0.51
> >40% 0.63 0.65
> >50% 0.79 0.81
> >60% 0.97 1.00
> >70% 1.18 1.23
> >80% 1.47 1.55
> >90% 1.76 1.92
> >95% 1.86 2.08
> >100% 2.02 2.28
> >
> >There is a clear enhancement of dmax using the varnish. Visually, the 
> >separation in the shadows is enhanced with the spary and there is no 
> >loss of highlight separation. However, this particular spary 
> >increases the gloss differential. I don't find that objectionable but 
> >I am sure others will disagree.
> >
> >Visually, the effect of the varnish on the appearance of the print is 
> >MUCH MORE than the damx numbers would indicate. It took me a while to 
> >figure out what was going on. After comparing prints made from many 
> >different printers (on Ep. Prem Luster) I discovered that the MIS 
> >INKS have a very low gloss. The Epson UC inks and in particular the 
> >Epson pk-black ink is much more glossy. The pk-black of the epson K3 
> >ink is significantly more glossy than the Ultrachrome pk-black.
> >
> >On Ep Prem Luster the gloss of the black ink appears to make a huge 
> >difference on the appearance of the tones. The high gloss UC ink 
> >gives the appearance of a rich deep black in the print. The MIS black 
> >leads to a dull appearance in the print that does not produce 
> >a "convincing black" (These are my opinions. Whether it does or does 
> >not is obviously a matter of taste.) This is why spraying the MIS 
> >print makes such a huge difference in appearance to me. With a spray 
> >the dmax of the MIS ink increases but the dull black ink surface now 
> >takes on a glossy appearance which dramatically increases the 
> >richness of the print.
> >
> >When I spray coat a print made with Epson UC inks or K3 inks the 
> >effect is much less noticable. Interestingly, spraying the Epson inks 
> >also leads to an increase in dmax. However, since the Epson inks are 
> >intrinsically glossy themselves, the print is rich in appearance 
> >before spraying and the effect of the spray is only of minor 
> >importance.
> >
> >  
> >
> We have had the discussion on the difference between matte and gloss 
> Dmax, the perceptual side versus the measured data. Within the context 
> of gloss printing only it may be in fact much more important and a high 
> gloss, high Dmax (visually and/or measurable) PK may have less black 
> pigment in it than a less glossy PK. Trying to get as much pigment in 
> while still keeping gloss may be counter productive in Dmax and
gloss in 
> the end. Best is of course an ink medium + pigment particle that has 
> high gloss quality together.
> 
> While testing the Fuji_Hunt paper with MIS PK and comparing them with 
> prints made with a 4000 I considered that there is a lot going on with 
> gloss and Dmax that should be taking serious. Printing the QTR target 
> with MIS PK and Eboni on that gloss paper I had a sample where the
Eboni 
> was visually more black than the PK next to it while the Spectrometer 
> measured a higher Dmax for the PK than on the Eboni. Quite low for PK 
> though: 1.75 without varnish at 43 ink limit, couldn't get higher with 
> higher ink limits on the 9000. There must be a point where gloss and 
> pigmentation grade are ideal for a given paper, something you can't 
> control with inklimit only on PK but can control with a mix of PK and 
> the next grey + their ink limits (Paul mentioned better result with two 
> greys than with PK and that fits this theory as well though Paul's 
> results were not only effectuated by this phenomenon IIRIC). I'm 
> actually checking whether different inklimits per grey ink on the
MIS UT 
> can keep the gloss differential better and fitting the densities based 
> on that instead of trying to keep the longest range of increasing 
> densities per grey ink. May not work though.
> 
> With that experience in mind I may try the 4800 PK ink in the 9000 UT 
> range, I suspected that the quoted Damx numbers are the result of a 
> better gloss/pigmentation mix (encapsulation of the pigment particles a 
> big contribution in this). I'm also wondering whether all the other 
> double/triple 4800 inks CcMmKkk have different gloss grades between
dark 
> and light and by that can control the gloss difference better. An 60% c 
> squirts a lot more ink medium on the paper than a 20% C.
> 
> Which ink carts of the 4000 and 4800 are identical ? The MK is as
far as 
> I know but is the yellow cart also the same and the rest not ?  A print 
> on the same matte  paper with 4000 PK and 4800 PK but from the same 
> printer will tell which has the higher pigment content.
> 
> Of course it could improve the results of the 4000 too if the PK of the 
> 4800 has a higher Dmax as a result of the better balance in 
> gloss/pigmentation. Swapping chips + a chip resetter if needed.
Probably 
> one has to find the right combination for a certain paper. Maybe it 
> requires other profiles + another paper setting etc for the Epson
driver 
> even for the 4000 supported Epson papers, maybe inklimits and QTR for 
> B&W or another RIP for Color are needed.
> 
> SemiGloss paper Dmax will shift more to the middle between Gloss and 
> Matte Dmax when the PK inks get a more pronounced gloss quality.
> 
> One other thing has to be considered too. Gloss surfaces come in many 
> varieties (paper coating, Glop, varnish etc.) and some withstand time, 
> humidity, abrasion etc better than others. Dmaxes can drop by changed 
> gloss grades and then a higher pigmentation of PK will be better to
keep 
> the density. A loss of transparency in the top layer will affect both 
> high and low pigmentation equal.
> 
> 
> Ernst

Guys:
I'm looking with great interest at your posts.  I just got a 4800 and
I mostly do BW.  I'm used to matt black so I substituted a 220ml MK
cart.  I see alot of people like Epson Premium semimatte paper so I'll
try it I think (don't see it as an option in my print dialog box
tho!).  I think I'm looking for the same thing you are.  My best work
is Tri-X 8 x 10 contacts on Agfa or Ilford's best- then dried on a
ferotype (gloss): has that deep silver 3D look.  So far gloss inkjet
media looks horible, so I've used mat.  I've been wanting to try to
get that deep look but sprays I've bought so far are invisible after
drying.  I want that laminated look.  Also, if you've ever messed with
colored pastels, when you spray fix them, they get deep and they
really pop.  Have you found something that will give these mat photos
that look?  They seem very absorbent and it seems they'd almost need a
primer.  I was thinking of dry-mounting on masonite and brushing on
laquer primer and final coats (unknown archival qualities).
Thanks, Kip.