Digital BW, The Print

alanrew42 wrote:

> Having said that, the author omitted to mention metamerism problems
> with pigments, which makes me wonder whether Lyson dyes also suffer
> from this problem.

Lyson dyes have not been free of metamerism. For example the 
Small Gamut set as the name implies not a very colorful inkset 
for B&W printing had a lot metamerism as reported by users here.
For low metamerism you probably are better off with the 
extended inksets with more grey inks. Composite grey (build 
with CMY etc) usually is more metamerism prone.

> Thanks for all this really detailed and valuable information. This
> should be publicised more widely.

I have done my best on many lists over the past 3 years to 
reveal that the test pages of Lyson are misleading. They must 
have seen my comments as true Lyson lovers were commenting my 
messages and reporting back to base. Nothing changed though 
but one particular Lyson lover switched to Lyson pigment ink. 
The pages are still there. It doesn't work that way.

> I've not used Fotonic inks, but comparing 3-D gamut plots of profiles
> from the Lyson web site with profiles made for my Epson 2100 with UC
> inks, the Fotonic gamut is significantly smaller. So I'm assuming that
> Lyson's claims about gamut are dubious. It's interesting that the 2-D
> gamut plots shown on Lyson's web site compare Lyson Fotonic inks with
> the standard Epson inks in an Epson 870, which is now quite an old
> printer by modern standards. Definitely a case of selective reporting!

The tests, the printers, the papers, the technology are all 
old news. But the pages still do what Lyson likes.

> Have you made profiles for Fotonic inks & seen better gamuts than
> those in the standard Lyson profiles? How do they compare with modern
> ink gamuts?

At that time we used Lyson or Hahnemuhle profiles.

Now that UC K3 inks are at a gamut level that was only 
possible with dye inks in the past you shouldn't look back. 
Even HP is switching to pigment inks while their dye ink + 
compatible papers had a fade resistance that surpassed any 
other recent dye combination. But less waterproof than pigment 
inks and bound to few paper choices.

If you insist that dye will solve your problems than you may 
find equivalent (to Lyson) quality dye inks in Epson's own dye 
ink and compatible papers and in Lincoln inks that were based 
on Ilford Archiva dye inks. Both have been tested by Wilhelm. 
Both perform best (fade resistance) on gelatine coated papers 
and not good on matte papers. Less waterproof than pigment inks.

> 
> I have an interest in all this as I've been thinking about switching
> to Lyson Fotonics in my 2100 after finally getting fed up with the
> metamerism problems with the UC inks.

I don't think you will be satisfied by that change. The 
reduction of metamerism in inkjet printing is a slow process. 
Since it became part of the quality criteria (in CMYK offset 
printing it isn't really an issue on a practical level). 
Manufacturers are aware of it and Epson shows progress since 
its earliest pigment models. I think you may find more 
improvement in a 2400 (or possibly the Canon/HP pigment 
competition) than in switching to dye inks.

>> The dye ink 
>> competition was tested on CcMmYK printers (Van Son). The test 
>> itself should be Wilhelm like according to Lyson, the 
>> interpretation in years is Lyson like. I have used Epson, 
>> Lysonic-E, Fotonic and Van Son dyes in an Epson 9000 and they 
>> all faded.
>>
>> So far no dye ink has beaten the pigment inks in longevity. 
>> The HP dyes in combination with the right HP papers are 
>> probably the best on the market right now and are Wilhelm 
>> tested. The choice of papers is limited though.
> 
> Can you suggest a current HP A3-sized printer for both colour & B&W
> printing? It may be cheaper for me to switch printers than put new
> inks in my 2100. I hadn't previously considered HP because third party
> ink (and driver/RIP) support seems better for Epson generally.

I have no experience with the HP printers. Some have been 
discussed here in relation to B&W printing. There's a dye 
model with an extra set of grey inks. But as said there's a 
new HP pigment model with an extended set of inks.
                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


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