Digital BW, The Print

Hi Ernst, in my experience you are right on several points. These
materials are still in their infancy and there is little consistant
behavior. I would guess that HP as been successful on some fronts by
addressing each of their materials and setups as a complete system,
involved in the development and setup for each, making it work. But,
as soon as us difficult artists decide we like some other materials
and pop that into the mix, it may underperform.
I just completed some successful tests with an inkset with GO for the
IGFS which looked great, then out of curiousity ran a sheet through of
Innova Ultrasmooth. The ink+GO literally ran off the paper. The Ilford
could take higher densities of light inks and required high amounts of
GO in the highlights, all of which it could take. The Innova could not
take it, so severe limiting of light inks and starting from scratch on
the GO channel would be required, it doesn't need as much in the
highlights..
As you note, that's a lot of fluid that needs to be balanced AND
perform well photographically. Then every paper is different.
This is why, in another thread, I said gloss papers weren't as sharp
as our best matte coatings- only because we can't get high
concentrations of light inks on the paper to pass on close dot
description of the info in the file, without bleed or mottle. Wider
spaced dots, therefore darker inks higher in the scale, are necessary
with the photo materials I've tested. Again, this may not be an issue
visually for many people, setups, or source material..
So while I think the HP has been very successful at addressing some of
this, particularly with their own materials, in general the photo
materials are still very particular and hard to work with. I'm sure
things will improve. It amazes me how different things are in terms of
materials we thought were commonplace some years back, that don't even
exist any more.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<edinkla@...> wrote:
>
> john dean wrote:
> > Well he's got a point Ernst, the Z does lay down gloss enhancer
> > superbly for the rc papers, especially their Pro Satin that is totally
> > worked out. However, it is NOT always enough for the fiber gloss
> > media. Personally I've experienced great resuts with most of these
> > papers on the Z for color but more often than not with the fiber gloss
> > media and black and white, there is NOT enough go laid down, resulting
> > in very objectionable (to me) gloss differiental.( yea you wouldn't
> > see it behind glass). This varies significantly with various media.
> > Such as Harmon fiber gloss not being usable even with color, Innova
> > some gloss differential with color and bad with black and white,
> > Ilford Gallerie Gold great with color very bad with black and white
> > :-(, Crane Silver Rag very good with both color and black and white.
> > All look good with one strong coat of Premier Art spray, but who needs
> > that headache for large things.
> > 
> > I just bought the Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta to try this weekend,
> > which I hear is a very good fit for everything on the Z, as well as
> > the new Baryta that HP has designed for their inks that may or may not
> > be the same paper...?  These might be the answer, along with Crane
> > Silver Rag. 
> > 
> > But, it would indeed be nice if one could run a second pass of the go 
> > inorder to work effectively with all this media. OR, as you say the
> > Z3200 allows, control of the amount used per media apart from the
> > other channels. Or Studio Print for 12 inks.
> > 
> > Is there any way that could be controlled on the 3100 apart from a
> > second run?
> 
> Alright, I do not have as much experience with the Fiber 
> papers and didn't think of them when I wrote that. Collected 
> several samples that I still have to try. The one that I 
> tested and like is the Sihl baryta which is closer to matte 
> than satin and the GE is just right to lift it to semi-satin 
> in the image. Tested some Innova in the past but rejected 
> the qualities then on other specs, Innova has new qualities 
> right now. The rest of my GE experience is with RC papers 
> and there it is good.
> 
> If the Z3200 allows as much control on the GE amount as the 
> Wasatch SoftRip allows with the Z3100 then I think part of 
> your problems may be solved but not all. There must be a 
> limit where the paper doesn't allow too much ink medium as 
> bleeding will happen. A suitable paper or a double run is 
> then the answer.
> 
> I don't think the two baryta's are the same. Couldn't get a 
> sample at the HP booth but there was a texture difference if 
> I recall it correctly and there's weight difference, 290 
> versus 325 grams, the HP has a buffered fiber but no mention 
> of cotton content. One would expect the HP version to be 
> compatible to the Z3100 printers and the printed samples on 
> the HP booth didn't show gloss differential, I checked that.
> 
> Apart from the trick in Economy Mode with an edited profile 
> to get the RGB 255 covered with GE (or with a print filter 
> curve in Qimage) there is no way to influence the GE amount 
> with the Z3100 right now. The RIP does as mentioned but you 
> wouldn't want that one for the color it produces. Using 
> another media preset with more ink and limiting the ink 
> (100-80%) in a custom media preset made of it will probably 
> reduce the GE as well but I have not tried that. There's 
> already a 46 to 32 % ink limit present in the various OEM 
> gloss media presets and I do not know what you have used 
> already and whether the 14% difference would do the job.
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
> 
> 
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