Digital BW, The Print

Mike Johnston at his T.O.P. blog has just posted, in his usual entertaining style, an article called "The Trouble with Recommendations" in which he describes his frustrating experience with an HP pigment printer and says HP has discontinued it's mid-line pigment-ink printers and wonders if they are retiring from that segment of the market.

It's a good read, here's the link

 http://tinyurl.com/3xdpm7

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Blog?

Well that's a useless amateur gadget website if I ever saw one, I guess he's trying to be funny or something. He sounds like a hobbyist.

That old HP model, not an art printer by any means, has nothing to do with the Z series and is kind of like comparing the first Epson 9000s to the 9900. Having said that it was more successful than what Epson  or Canon offered for the graphics industry at that time. Not even related really to the Z series though, its an apples and oranges comparison and pretty much useless. Big corporations do all kinds of bizarre things, especially Epson, HP, and Microsoft. They all make way too many products that end up as a dead end line.

However, HP did produce the first really permanent high gamut highly stable outdoor pigment inks that were encapsulated with a uv resin. They beat the hell out of Ultrachrome.

j 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Mike Johnston at his T.O.P. blog has just posted, in his usual entertaining style, an article called "The Trouble with Recommendations" in which he describes his frustrating experience with an HP pigment printer and says HP has discontinued it's mid-line pigment-ink printers and wonders if they are retiring from that segment of the market.
> 
> It's a good read, here's the link
> 
>  http://tinyurl.com/3xdpm7
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

Opinion?
Useless.

On Apr 10, 2010, at 8:09 PM, john wrote:

> Blog?
>
> Well that's a useless amateur gadget website if I ever saw one, I  
> guess he's trying to be funny or something. He sounds like a hobbyist.
>
> That old HP model, not an art printer by any means, has nothing to  
> do with the Z series and is kind of like comparing the first Epson  
> 9000s to the 9900. Having said that it was more successful than what  
> Epson  or Canon offered for the graphics industry at that time. Not  
> even related really to the Z series though, its an apples and  
> oranges comparison and pretty much useless. Big corporations do all  
> kinds of bizarre things, especially Epson, HP, and Microsoft. They  
> all make way too many products that end up as a dead end line.
>
> However, HP did produce the first really permanent high gamut highly  
> stable outdoor pigment inks that were encapsulated with a uv resin.  
> They beat the hell out of Ultrachrome.
>
> j
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ"  
> <cj@...> wrote:
>>
>> Mike Johnston at his T.O.P. blog has just posted, in his usual  
>> entertaining style, an article called "The Trouble with  
>> Recommendations" in which he describes his frustrating experience  
>> with an HP pigment printer and says HP has discontinued it's mid- 
>> line pigment-ink printers and wonders if they are retiring from  
>> that segment of the market.
>>
>> It's a good read, here's the link
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/3xdpm7
>>
>> Regards,
>> Clayton
>>
>>
>> Info on black and white digital printing at
>> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
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>>>>Well that's a useless amateur gadget website if I ever saw one, I guess
he's trying to be funny or something. He sounds like a hobbyist.

"Mike Johnston has published more than 100 articles about photography in
magazines in the U.S. and England. He currently writes for BLACK & WHITE
PHOTOGRAPHY and CAMERA ARTS magazines, and his column "The Sunday Morning
Photographer" appears on the web on The Luminous Landscape, Steve's
Digicams, and Photo.Net, and is translated into Polish, Hungarian,
Portuguese, and Greek. In the past he was East Coast Editor of CAMERA &
DARKROOM and Editor-in-Chief of PHOTO TECHNIQUES."

Yeah, quite the hobbyist.....


Richard S.
Albany, CA (San Francisco bay area)

My Photography Website
http://www.lightshadowandtone.com

My Flickr River
http://flickriver.com/photos/rich8155/popular-interesting/


On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 7:09 PM, john <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

>
>
> Blog?
>
> Well that's a useless amateur gadget website if I ever saw one, I guess
> he's trying to be funny or something. He sounds like a hobbyist.
>
> That old HP model, not an art printer by any means, has nothing to do with
> the Z series and is kind of like comparing the first Epson 9000s to the
> 9900. Having said that it was more successful than what Epson or Canon
> offered for the graphics industry at that time. Not even related really to
> the Z series though, its an apples and oranges comparison and pretty much
> useless. Big corporations do all kinds of bizarre things, especially Epson,
> HP, and Microsoft. They all make way too many products that end up as a dead
> end line.
>
> However, HP did produce the first really permanent high gamut highly stable
> outdoor pigment inks that were encapsulated with a uv resin. They beat the
> hell out of Ultrachrome.
>
> j
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:
> >
> > Mike Johnston at his T.O.P. blog has just posted, in his usual
> entertaining style, an article called "The Trouble with Recommendations" in
> which he describes his frustrating experience with an HP pigment printer and
> says HP has discontinued it's mid-line pigment-ink printers and wonders if
> they are retiring from that segment of the market.
> >
> > It's a good read, here's the link
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/3xdpm7
> >
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> >
> >
> > Info on black and white digital printing at
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pretty much.

What is really useless though is Epson's practice of cutting off the supply of parts for our older printers so we can't keep them running.

I called Compas Micro last week to see about ordering a print head for my 9600 so I can have one to keep me going when my head eventually goes out, now that we are locked out of the new Epson's for alternative 3rd party BW inks.

The guy as Compas was really nice but said, sorry we can't sell them anymore, Epson won't let us. I said why. He said, well they say that people were using them for the wrong reason.  I'm serious, the wrong reason,  :-). Which is, keeping our printers going so we don't have to buy new ones that we don't want or need. So keeping me from replacing my head in the 9600 is supposed to convince me to buy a 9900? I don't think so.

j

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Dave <cowcreekroad@...> wrote:

>
> Opinion?
> Useless.
>

On Apr 10, 2010, at 9:09 PM, john wrote:

> That old HP model, not an art printer by any means,

Your definition of art printer must be very different from mine. I have a B9180 (2 years) and a recently acquired Epson 3800. Though the B9180 virtually defines the word "unreliable" mechanically, when it behaves it produces first class prints. I have yet to make a same image, same paper print with the Epson printer that matches the depth and local contrast I get out of the B9180.

If HP would have pulled their collective heads out of their collective a***s and built a reliable 17" printer with the same ink set as The B9180/Z series, I never would have considered the Epson.

As for the Z series, I am not giving HP $3000 or more for a machine I know from experience will break down even before it becomes obsolete, which will be soon. The first manufacturer who realizes that photographers need a machine that will reliably print the way WE want it to, not the way THEY want it to, with the inks WE want to use; that manufacturer will own the market.

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I guess my definition of a fine art printer would be the following:

1. one that has both a very good gamut, good dither, with superior longevity in relation to the other offerings available today, generally twice the permanence for color without resorting to toxic uv sprays.

2. one that doesn't have to do nozzle checks every time one loads a sheet of rag paper or even a roll of 44" rag paper,  because it never misses nozzles and I never even think of doing a nozzle check. If you do have to resort to a head cleaning because you ran something full of lint through it for days at a time, it uses very little ink in the process.

3. one that can print a perfect 40x60 color image on a rag matte paper and the next print be a 40x60 black and white image on a fiber gloss paper without having to go trough some convoluted ink switch mechanism that puts valuable pigments down into the waste tank and into the land fill.

4. one that self linearizes and profiles on any media including kozo rice paper, canvas, or any media in a few minutes, while I do something on another printer because it has a built in free I-One spectro installed, that does an excellent job.

5. one that makes perfectly smooth gloss differential and bronzing free prints on rc gloss and fiber gloss media without resorting to an after coat of Premier Art spray.

6. one that allows me to pop out the print head and replace it in 2 minutes when necessary, which is very seldom by the way and the heads are good and quite cheap in price.

7. one that has 2 black and two gray inks that are not brown and can make prints without the use of any color inks at all. So easy. 

8. one that automatically monitors the condition of the nozzles and heads and if necessary self cleans without the use of tons of wasted ink.

9. one that automatically does a perfect head alignment if necessary just by pushing a button and never having to look at a single grid.

10. one that gave me a 3 year extended warranty that covers all parts and labor for $1,500.00 after the free one year warranty was up.

11. one that gives me a dmax of 1.78 on matte rag papers and way beyond that for gloss and gloss fiber media....

12. when the ink cart says it is empty, it IS empty.

Is Hp perfect?, hell no. They are a giant conglomerate, with dozens of divisions to pass the buck to,  but I"ve been going for 2 1/2 years on this one Z and got my money out of it the first six months in peace of mind alone. It makes total sense that they would discontinue earlier models because the Z3200 was so well thought out over a very long period of time by a very innovative design team.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Apr 10, 2010, at 9:09 PM, john wrote:
> 
> > That old HP model, not an art printer by any means,
> 
> Your definition of art printer must be very different from mine. I have a B9180 (2 years) and a recently acquired Epson 3800. Though the B9180 virtually defines the word "unreliable" mechanically, when it behaves it produces first class prints. I have yet to make a same image, same paper print with the Epson printer that matches the depth and local contrast I get out of the B9180.
> 
> If HP would have pulled their collective heads out of their collective a***s and built a reliable 17" printer with the same ink set as The B9180/Z series, I never would have considered the Epson.
> 
> As for the Z series, I am not giving HP $3000 or more for a machine I know from experience will break down even before it becomes obsolete, which will be soon. The first manufacturer who realizes that photographers need a machine that will reliably print the way WE want it to, not the way THEY want it to, with the inks WE want to use; that manufacturer will own the market.
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> 
> As for the Z series, I am not giving HP $3000 or more for a machine I
> know from experience will break down even before it becomes obsolete,
> which will be soon. The first manufacturer who realizes that
> photographers need a machine that will reliably print the way WE want
> it to, not the way THEY want it to, with the inks WE want to use;
> that manufacturer will own the market.
> 
> David Kachel

Not my experience. Two Z's here and one is 3 years old, one GE head
replaced a month ago. Never seen a serviceman. Cheap heads, extra
spindles, ... There are cons but not what you mention. Both print
gorgeous B&W BTW. In my opinion still the best turn key B&W printer. The
only manufacturer that gives at least support for third party media with
information + hardware. With the best ink around you can excuse them for
being less supportive on third party ink. Are Epson and Canon more open
to the use of third party media/ink? Is that a company policy or the
hard work of third party companies and individuals?

Reading the article Clayton gave the link for, yes I guess the B9180 and
related models will not be continued. There have been more signs. And I
recognise the HP desktop printer department policy on sending a new
printer if the first one had a problem and not asking you to send the
first one back.
It happened with an Officejet here 6 months ago. I explained what part
was wrong on the first one and I got the second one in a week without
discussion. I transferred the heads + the dual side printer part from
the first to the second. Don't mind to keep the extra body if another
flaw asks for parts but there was also a free 3 years warranty included
in the deal. I like that printer, fast and reliable, even with the
Vivera pigment inks it has to swallow now.
The article wouldn't influence my opinion on a printer purchase, quite
void of real information it is. He sketched his own subjectivity in the
first part and ended with it too. I think he writes a lot of words to
save up for that 599.

I have not the faintest idea what HP has in mind for the Z series and
desktop models. Photokina 2010 in September will tell. It could be a
disappointment or a revelation. I think they should do something on the
17" wide market, head on with Canon's iPF5100. For speed they could
introduce the Z6100 heads in the Z3xx model line, will give them at
least twice the speed. HP isn't going out of the printer business, they
are the biggest company from desktop printers up to industrial flatbeds,
not to mention their move into the offset market with web inkjet printers.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 10, 2010, at 11:58 PM, "john" <deanwork2003@yahoo.com> wrote:

> 7. one that has 2 black and two gray inks that are not brown and can make prints without the use of any color inks at all. So easy.

This requirement is defined by the way HP chose to configure their machines, not an outside requirement; other methods of producing similar results can be equally valid. I find the HP solution convenient; right up to the point where it gets in the way, and quite encumbering beyond that. 

CDT

David,

I guess I don't understand what encumbering would be. The Z series also has the ability to colorize monochrome just like ABW, though I don't use that method. What I do is convert to srgb and tone with hue/sat adjustment layer, add just enough toning to do exactly what I want, such as very linear mild or intense sepia, selenium tone, and even neutral that can match NK7. I actually did that yesterday for a client and they loved it. But you do have to select paper carefully, but that is always the case.

What I DO wish HP had done is to include one more very light gray because there is no way it is going to be in the realm of Piezography without that. But I guess that would end up with 13 inks and that's unlucky. They could remove the blue though and I wouldn't miss it.

j

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Apr 10, 2010, at 11:58 PM, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
> 
> > 7. one that has 2 black and two gray inks that are not brown and can make prints without the use of any color inks at all. So easy.
> 
> This requirement is defined by the way HP chose to configure their machines, not an outside requirement; other methods of producing similar results can be equally valid. I find the HP solution convenient; right up to the point where it gets in the way, and quite encumbering beyond that. 
> 
> CDT
>

>Ernst Dinkla...> wrote:

>The article...void of real information it is. 

I think the most worthwhile part was this quote near the end...

"I really have no idea why people keep repeating the old platitude that to print digital, "all you have to do is press a button." What? Have those people never printed digital? That's nothing close to my experience. Printing digital badly might be easy. Printing digital really well is hard. It requires attentiveness, knowledge, investment, preparation, and a certain thoroughness of mind."



Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Mr.Dinkla said it.. no shortcuts to beautiful prints!
Invest time and practice. It's hardwork. No "push the button" for me.
At the end, you'll know (at least) what you're doing. I'm in favor of hard work and I keep away from the easy way out.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> >Ernst Dinkla...> wrote:
> 
> >The article...void of real information it is. 
> 
> I think the most worthwhile part was this quote near the end...
> 
> "I really have no idea why people keep repeating the old platitude that to print digital, "all you have to do is press a button." What? Have those people never printed digital? That's nothing close to my experience. Printing digital badly might be easy. Printing digital really well is hard. It requires attentiveness, knowledge, investment, preparation, and a certain thoroughness of mind."
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

>>I guess I don't understand what encumbering would be.

The preneutralized inks are finicky about media; to use other media  
you need to define your own neutral ramp and blend to paper white. To  
do that you need to use color mode. Since HPs B&W is based on the  
preneutralized ink concept, its not really opimized for these other  
situations. I'm not actually complaining about this, any methodology  
has it's tradeoffs, I'm just pointing out where some of them are. Like  
you, I'd like to see wider media capacities and one more gray... But  
that's backseat driving.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Apr 11, 2010, at 10:31 AM, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> I guess I don't understand what encumbering would be.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John writ:

> Blog?
>
> Well that's a useless amateur gadget website if I ever saw one, I  
> guess he's trying to be funny or something. He sounds like a hobbyist.

Ouch...that's a bit of a harsh slam, I'd say. Johnston's is a good  
deal less irksome than a number of puffy photo blogs that get  
namechecked here and abouts.

Anyway, what I find funny about the B-series phase-out by HP is that  
these printers ostensibly (though not immediately) replaced the  
archival dye-based printer I'm still happily using, the Photosmart  
Pro 8750. Uh-huh, dyes, which appear to hold up quite well on HP's  
own papers, and produced black-and-white output that aced most of  
what I've seen coming out of  either the 9180 or 8850. I've liked the  
printer so much in the four-plus years i've had it that I sourced a  
second, barely-used 8750 to keep as a spare. I'll worry about a  
"replacement" when I've worn out the mothballed printer, by which  
time something truly better should have come along. (Or perhaps the  
folks perfecting electrowetting technology will be well along the way  
to largely kill off printing as we know it for most people.)


- Barrett

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I see what you mean and I totally agree with you. That is a limitation, not all papers are useful for 'neutral' output.

As a matter of fact in my opinion none of the OEM back and gray inks are neutral on most media. The Vivera is really more like a selenium tone on most rag papers like Photograg, but it is pretty close to dead neutral on the non oba  gloss fiber papers like Photorag Baryta. Not that dead neutral is necessarily desirable. I, actually, like Ernst, have grown to really like the print color of the Vivera grays, it is very close to Piezography Selenium K7, but without the 7 values of subtlety of course, and that is an obvious difference.

The other thing about Vivera though is that the color pigments and the gray pigments were carefully designed to fade at the same rate. That can be good and bad. Good if you tone the prints for monochrome, but bad if you wanted to have a gray ink that exceeds the permanence of the color pigments. But all in all they are all very stable in the larger scheme of things.

j

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
>  >>I guess I don't understand what encumbering would be.
> 
> The preneutralized inks are finicky about media; to use other media  
> you need to define your own neutral ramp and blend to paper white. To  
> do that you need to use color mode. Since HPs B&W is based on the  
> preneutralized ink concept, its not really opimized for these other  
> situations. I'm not actually complaining about this, any methodology  
> has it's tradeoffs, I'm just pointing out where some of them are. Like  
> you, I'd like to see wider media capacities and one more gray... But  
> that's backseat driving.
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
> 
> On Apr 11, 2010, at 10:31 AM, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
> 
> > I guess I don't understand what encumbering would be.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Apr 11, 2010, at 1:42 PM, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> Not that dead neutral is necessarily desirable.

Agreed; I thought that dead neutral was the goal... Until I devised a system that allowed for that, at whitch point I found myself much more interested in subtle tints, cross-tints, and ram pings to paper white. 

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging and Home Theater
Datacolor inc. 
cdtobie@datacolor.com
www.datacolor.com

There once was a mighty copier company that used a similar policy to protect their service business. It got hauled before an even mightier agency of the US government for such nefarious deeds. The end result was to overturn such policy and they were forced to make all parts directly available to anyone who actually owned one of their machines as well as any service manuals and necessary software and tools for service. Of course, they got to charge for the privilege and things weren't cheap. Still, it did solve a serious problem for some people.

If one has deep enough pockets they could probably sue the pants off an offending party using historic precedence and might well win.It's likely easier to just, along with others in the same boat, take your money elsewhere and watch them go slowly out of the professional market due to their own terminal stupidity.

Notice: I am not a lawyer and take no responsibility for any conclusions draw from the above comments. I do ,however, have personal knowledge and direct experience with the matters to which I referred.

Regards,
Duane



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

>
> 
> What is really useless though is Epson's practice of cutting off the supply of parts for our older printers so we can't keep them running.
> 
> I called Compas Micro last week to see about ordering a print head for my 9600 so I can have one to keep me going when my head eventually goes out, now that we are locked out of the new Epson's for alternative 3rd party BW inks.
> 
> The guy as Compas was really nice but said, sorry we can't sell them anymore, Epson won't let us. I said why. He said, well they say that people were using them for the wrong reason.  I'm serious, the wrong reason,  :-). Which is, keeping our printers going so we don't have to buy new ones that we don't want or need. So keeping me from replacing my head in the 9600 is supposed to convince me to buy a 9900? I don't think so.
> 
> j
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Dave <cowcreekroad@> wrote:
> >
> > Opinion?
> > Useless.
> >
>

> Agreed; I thought that dead neutral was the goal... Until I devised a 
> system that allowed for that, at whitch point I found myself much more 
> interested in subtle tints, cross-tints, and ram pings to paper white.

I've often thought that most of the people on this list are really color 
printers; they just don't like too much color.

bob F.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "C D Tobie" <CDTobie@...>

On Apr 12, 2010, at 5:02 AM, Bob Frost wrote:

>> Agreed; I thought that dead neutral was the goal... Until I devised a
>> system that allowed for that, at whitch point I found myself much  
>> more
>> interested in subtle tints, cross-tints, and rampings to paper white.
>
> I've often thought that most of the people on this list are really  
> color
> printers; they just don't like too much color.

Yes, its like the old joke about men liking color in their clothes;  
they just have such subtle color tastes that varying shades of beige  
and black are sufficient to satisfy them.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]