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2010-04-11 by vicpug
I have been playing with 3rd party inks in a 3800 refill system. Neutral ABW prints are no longer neutral with the new inks. How does one go about profiling 3rd party inks to make ABW print totally neutral. Also how do you create a Quadtone B&W neutral profile for a 3rd party inkset. cheers and thanks
2010-04-11 by tboleyyh
with the ABW driver you don't have color managed control of hue. You will to play with the hue controls in the driver itself, hit and miss, to find a hue, neutral or otherwise, you like. By "Quadtone B&W neatral" profile are you refering to the profiler that comes with Quadtone RIP? Anyway, no profile will control your color, or create neutral. Tiy will have to find settings for that. If you like, a profiler, Quadtone RIPs, Datacolor's, any other profile maker will essentially linearize the luminance scale, not effect color, of output using ABW. Actually, with new PS versions, can you print with a profile from grayscale?? It may need to be RGB. Tyler --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "vicpug" <vicpug@...> wrote:
> > I have been playing with 3rd party inks in a 3800 refill system. Neutral ABW prints are no longer neutral with the new inks. How does one go about profiling 3rd party inks to make ABW print totally neutral. Also how do you create a Quadtone B&W neutral profile for a 3rd party inkset. cheers and thanks >
2010-04-11 by tboleyyh
sorry about the spastic typing, too much going on in here today. I should have added that this may be better addressed by using the RGB driver, which does open you to color managed options including finding neutral, and at this point David Tobie should step in... Tyler --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
> > with the ABW driver you don't have color managed control of hue. You will to play with the hue controls in the driver itself, hit and miss, to find a hue, neutral or otherwise, you like. > By "Quadtone B&W neatral" profile are you refering to the profiler that comes with Quadtone RIP? > > Anyway, no profile will control your color, or create neutral. Tiy will have to find settings for that. If you like, a profiler, Quadtone RIPs, Datacolor's, any other profile maker will essentially linearize the luminance scale, not effect color, of output using ABW. > > Actually, with new PS versions, can you print with a profile from grayscale?? It may need to be RGB. > Tyler > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "vicpug" <vicpug@> wrote: > > > > I have been playing with 3rd party inks in a 3800 refill system. Neutral ABW prints are no longer neutral with the new inks. How does one go about profiling 3rd party inks to make ABW print totally neutral. Also how do you create a Quadtone B&W neutral profile for a 3rd party inkset. cheers and thanks > > >
2010-04-11 by Walker Blackwell
There is no way to control the neutrality axis of ABW for third party inks as it is a grayscale driver. You can only "tone" the output and that hue is followed through the entire tonal range of the print so any color transitions coming from the third party ink will still be there (maybe in slightly different proportions.) As a result, you need to use QTR. This lets you modify the hue axis in the paper curve and get good grayscale prints with third party inks. Walker
2010-04-11 by vicpug
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote: > > There is no way to control the neutrality axis of ABW for third party inks as it is a grayscale driver. You can only "tone" the output and that hue is followed through the entire tonal range of the print so any color transitions coming from the third party ink will still be there (maybe in slightly different proportions.) As a result, you need to use QTR. This lets you modify the hue axis in the paper curve and get good grayscale prints with third party inks. > > Walker Many thanks. Can you profile a paper / ink combination with a Spyder/Colormunki and somehow easily export/import this into QuadtoneRIP and create a new Profile? This is where third party inks have a weakness.
2010-04-11 by Walker Blackwell
Yes. You can do this with ColorMunki. I believe there was a discussion on this here in the archives as well as NorthLight images. Walker On Apr 11, 2010, at 7:11 PM, vicpug wrote: > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote: > > > > There is no way to control the neutrality axis of ABW for third party inks as it is a grayscale driver. You can only "tone" the output and that hue is followed through the entire tonal range of the print so any color transitions coming from the third party ink will still be there (maybe in slightly different proportions.) As a result, you need to use QTR. This lets you modify the hue axis in the paper curve and get good grayscale prints with third party inks. > > > > Walker > > Many thanks. Can you profile a paper / ink combination with a Spyder/Colormunki and somehow easily export/import this into QuadtoneRIP and create a new Profile? This is where third party inks have a weakness. > > Walker Blackwell 802.821.4451 www.walkerblackwell.com aim: greendirtblues wblackwell@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-04-11 by john
That is totally unacceptable on this list Tyler. You should know better and you should be a lot more sensitive. As Sarah Palin clearly pointed out it is not socially permitted to use slander like this in public (unless you are Rush Limbaugh, in which case of course it is done in an ironic neocon manner) you retard. john
> > sorry about the spastic typing, too much going on in here today. >
2010-04-12 by C D Tobie
On Apr 11, 2010, at 6:51 PM, tboleyyh wrote: > sorry about the spastic typing, too much going on in here today. > I should have added that this may be better addressed by using the > RGB driver, which does open you to color managed options including > finding neutral, and at this point David Tobie should step in... Well, only if thats the workflow thats desired. But yes, if you want to use profiles for neutral prints, or to control near neutral tints, cross-tints, or tints-to-paper-white, then using the color mode and Spyder3Print SR is the most likely route to that, especially with third party inks. There is a significant cost of entry (I think the list price in the US is $339 at the moment, perhaps a bit less at some web resellers), but you can continue to use it for any other B&W system you choose to get involved in, that needs measurements made for control curves etc, such as through QTR. C. David Tobie Global Product Technology Manager Digital Imaging & Home Theater CDTobie@... ---------- Datacolor www.datacolor.com/Spyder3 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-04-12 by colingruk
I have recently started this process with my Epson 3800 for photo as against matt papers. I have a continuous feed system which I feed with the MIS inks for the Epson 2400 inks because I understood that the Epson inks for both machines were the same. My previous QTR experience has been with the three Eboni and the three PKN black(?) inks on my Epson 1800. In these systems I have no control over hues and the matter is reduced to one of linearization. I have thus little experience behind me. Even though I worked on QTR first with Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl and achieved an imperfect neutral and reasonably linear profile. I have consumed over 30 A4 sheets of Ilford Galerie Silk Fiber. I was able to achieve a reasonably linear curve several times, but obtaining low Lab positive `a' values and low `b' values was beyond my skills, patience or endurance the law of unexpected consequences came into play. The `a' values varied between - 0.29 and +1.32 whilst the `b' values lay between 2.86 (in the deep shadows where hue is not really visible) and +5.24. Technically positive `b'values indicate yellow hues but, as QTR does not print with yellow, maybe this is a measure of the paper base? Unfortunately there is just a hint of green in the prints. How can this be? With this L curve I used Create ICC to have a profile to use with ABW. I suspect MIS's PK inks are more warm than Epson's. I need to adjust the resulting curves with Photoshop curves until I had a linear profile. I then tried, iteratively, to find a neutral setting but then the profile had to be changed again. The ABW values I ended up with, using the `light' setting were H=-15 and V=-73, should that be of help to you. I tried a `sepia' setting but prefer more of a dark chocolate look. I also dislike how the hues go to black at Dmax. I would rather sacrifice the Dmax for a gentle loss of hue towards a lower Dmax. One of the reasons for using QTR was the apparent reduction of longevity if yellow pigments are used. With ABW and warm tones that argument falls by the way and so I seen no powerful argument against using my colour profiles to achieve my desired look. I am happy to say that I like the result. ColinGRUK www.colinconwayphotography.com --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "vicpug" <vicpug@...> wrote:
> > I have been playing with 3rd party inks in a 3800 refill system. Neutral ABW prints are no longer neutral with the new inks. How does one go about profiling 3rd party inks to make ABW print totally neutral. Also how do you create a Quadtone B&W neutral profile for a 3rd party inkset. cheers and thanks >
2010-04-12 by Walker Blackwell
I would suggest getting more into the literature of curve creation in QTR on the website. Generally it takes a preset curve blend to create a good "neutral" print too. Walker On Apr 12, 2010, at 3:36 PM, colingruk wrote: > I have recently started this process with my Epson 3800 for photo as against matt papers. I have a continuous feed system which I feed with the MIS inks for the Epson 2400 inks because I understood that the Epson inks for both machines were the same. > > My previous QTR experience has been with the three Eboni and the three PKN black(?) inks on my Epson 1800. In these systems I have no control over hues and the matter is reduced to one of linearization. I have thus little experience behind me. > > Even though I worked on QTR first with Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl and achieved an imperfect neutral and reasonably linear profile. I have consumed over 30 A4 sheets of Ilford Galerie Silk Fiber. I was able to achieve a reasonably linear curve several times, but obtaining low Lab positive `a' values and low `b' values was beyond my skills, patience or endurance � the law of unexpected consequences came into play. The `a' values varied between - 0.29 and +1.32 whilst the `b' values lay between �2.86 (in the deep shadows where hue is not really visible) and +5.24. Technically positive `b'values indicate yellow hues but, as QTR does not print with yellow, maybe this is a measure of the paper base? Unfortunately there is just a hint of green in the prints. How can this be? > > With this L curve I used Create ICC to have a profile to use with ABW. I suspect MIS's PK inks are more warm than Epson's. I need to adjust the resulting curves with Photoshop curves until I had a linear profile. I then tried, iteratively, to find a neutral setting but then the profile had to be changed again. The ABW values I ended up with, using the `light' setting were H=-15 and V=-73, should that be of help to you. > > I tried a `sepia' setting but prefer more of a dark chocolate look. I also dislike how the hues go to black at Dmax. I would rather sacrifice the Dmax for a gentle loss of hue towards a lower Dmax. > > One of the reasons for using QTR was the apparent reduction of longevity if yellow pigments are used. With ABW and warm tones that argument falls by the way and so I seen no powerful argument against using my colour profiles to achieve my desired look. I am happy to say that I like the result. > > ColinGRUK > > www.colinconwayphotography.com > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "vicpug" <vicpug@...> wrote: > > > > I have been playing with 3rd party inks in a 3800 refill system. Neutral ABW prints are no longer neutral with the new inks. How does one go about profiling 3rd party inks to make ABW print totally neutral. Also how do you create a Quadtone B&W neutral profile for a 3rd party inkset. cheers and thanks > > > > Walker Blackwell 802.821.4451 www.walkerblackwell.com aim: greendirtblues wblackwell@googlewave.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]