Digital BW, The Print

I hope this isn't too far off topic. I'm scanning some 4x5 b&w negs that I'm having mixed results with. The problem is with the subject which is low contrast landscape scenes with snow and trees/vegetation and an overcast sky. The tree bark is the darkest part of the scene and meters in the field at around zone 5 (incident) while the snow comes in 2-3 zones higher. The equipment I'm scanning with is an Epson 4870 with the film scanning setup for 4x5 negs. I'm also using Epson Scan.

So, I do a preview scan and pull up the histogram; next I isolate the image with a marquee. I find the exposure pattern located entirely on the right side with the black point/white point limits at 150 & 240 and the midpoint at 1.50. The preview image is dark with the sliders pulled to these points. A completed scan with the black/white points set as described produces a dark, hard to evaluate image. The image also has a lot of pure black in the shadows with no detail. 

Opening the image in PS and pulling up another histogram, I find the image touching the black point but does not extend to the white point. However, a triangle/exclamation pt. has appeared next to the histogram and I clicked it to refresh the histogram. Now there is a one pixel high black line lying on the bottom border and extending out to the white point marker at 255. (I'm thinking this could be from dust on the negative during exposure and creating a clear spot on it.) Now I pull the white point slider down to the normal start of the white point of the histogram mountain (right side); the image snaps to life. But there is too much pure black in areas that should show some detail and no amount of fiddling can find detail in these areas. As I mentioned earlier, the tree trunks were the darkest part of the scene and metered around zone 5. So I'm thinking that these mid-grey areas are now showing up as the pure black due to my placement of the black point during scanning. (This is starting to make some sense as I write...)

But we're not done. I do a second scan and this time place the midpoint slider, prior to final scanning, down where one would normally place the black slider and place that slider lower in the space between the left border and the start of the black end of the histogram - sort of in no-man's land. Opening in PS I now have much less pure black and the midtones are in a workable range. It's useable.

Is the lesson to be learned this: when the original scene is very low contrast and the darkest point is equivalent to a mid-grey, scan the negative so the midpoint slider points to the lowest end of the histogram mountain? This seems to prevent the scanner from making these mid-grey areas from turning pure black.

All comments and other ideas appreciated.

On 10/05/2010 Michael wrote:
> Is the lesson to be learned this: when the original scene is very low 
> contrast and the darkest point is equivalent to a mid-grey, scan the 
> negative so the midpoint slider points to the lowest end of the 
> histogram mountain? This seems to prevent the scanner from making 
> these mid-grey areas from turning pure black.

Pretty much, yes.

I don't know Epsonscan (despite having a V700, I use Vuescan with it
and other scanners).

You need to control scanner exposure so that your zoneV darkest shadows
remain ZoneV in the positive scan, whilst capturing all highlight detail.
Restricted density range in the neg should make this easy, since the
scanner's OD range will exceed what's on the film.

Scanners apply a simple gamma function that does not cope well with the 
densitometric curve of B&W film. B&W film is non-linear and designed to 
work with inversely non-linear bromide paper. Scans that place highlight 
and shadow points correctly will usually look flat and horrid in the 
midtones because of this. The solution is to scan for maximum tonal 
information and expect to have to adjust levels *and* curve to get a 
better combination of shadow separation, highlight detail and midtone 
contrast.

It's usually impossible to achieve all this at the scanning stage, better 
to scan at 16bits and do the tweaking in PS.

-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

I usually use pigment ink on fine art matte paper. But for some images I 
prefer the look on glossy paper. But pigment ink on glossy can be wiped 
out easily. Anyone tried to spray a protection layer on glossy paper to 
make pigment ink stay and adhere on the glossy paper? What is the spray 
it can be used for this purpose?

Phil

Michael,

It is not clear from your message if you are scanning as a negative or a positive.   I might suggest that you scan as an RGB Positive and leave the sliders pertty open to capture the complete histogram and do your inversion and b/w conversion in Photoshop.


Paul
On May 10, 2010, at 3:16 PM, Michael wrote:

> I hope this isn't too far off topic. I'm scanning some 4x5 b&w negs that I'm having mixed results with. The problem is with the subject which is low contrast landscape scenes with snow and trees/vegetation and an overcast sky. The tree bark is the darkest part of the scene and meters in the field at around zone 5 (incident) while the snow comes in 2-3 zones higher. The equipment I'm scanning with is an Epson 4870 with the film scanning setup for 4x5 negs. I'm also using Epson Scan.
> 
> So, I do a preview scan and pull up the histogram; next I isolate the image with a marquee. I find the exposure pattern located entirely on the right side with the black point/white point limits at 150 & 240 and the midpoint at 1.50. The preview image is dark with the sliders pulled to these points. A completed scan with the black/white points set as described produces a dark, hard to evaluate image. The image also has a lot of pure black in the shadows with no detail. 
> 
> Opening the image in PS and pulling up another histogram, I find the image touching the black point but does not extend to the white point. However, a triangle/exclamation pt. has appeared next to the histogram and I clicked it to refresh the histogram. Now there is a one pixel high black line lying on the bottom border and extending out to the white point marker at 255. (I'm thinking this could be from dust on the negative during exposure and creating a clear spot on it.) Now I pull the white point slider down to the normal start of the white point of the histogram mountain (right side); the image snaps to life. But there is too much pure black in areas that should show some detail and no amount of fiddling can find detail in these areas. As I mentioned earlier, the tree trunks were the darkest part of the scene and metered around zone 5. So I'm thinking that these mid-grey areas are now showing up as the pure black due to my placement of the black point during scanning. (This is starting to make some sense as I write...)
> 
> But we're not done. I do a second scan and this time place the midpoint slider, prior to final scanning, down where one would normally place the black slider and place that slider lower in the space between the left border and the start of the black end of the histogram - sort of in no-man's land. Opening in PS I now have much less pure black and the midtones are in a workable range. It's useable.
> 
> Is the lesson to be learned this: when the original scene is very low contrast and the darkest point is equivalent to a mid-grey, scan the negative so the midpoint slider points to the lowest end of the histogram mountain? This seems to prevent the scanner from making these mid-grey areas from turning pure black.
> 
> All comments and other ideas appreciated.
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <michael3442@...> wrote:
>

Big SNIP

> 
> Is the lesson to be learned this: when the original scene is very low contrast and the darkest point is equivalent to a mid-grey, scan the negative so the midpoint slider points to the lowest end of the histogram mountain? This seems to prevent the scanner from making these mid-grey areas from turning pure black.
> 
> All comments and other ideas appreciated.


Nikon scanners (according to Nikon) apply curves adjustments AFTER, not before, the scan.  If your Epson scanner does likewise, then any adjustments are better done in PS after the scan. Again, in NikonScan, the only prescan adjustment that makes sense is the exposure, say, to bring up the shadows and shift the histogram accordingly.

So, the first order of business should be to determine when Curves adjustments are applied.

For the heck of it, you might also try scanning your negs as positives and inverting in PS.  You will get a very different histogram to work with.

Harry

You can use the same spray as you use on matte paper.  I used PremierArt Print Shield to spray Epson Exhibition Fiber color and black and white prints that are put into an album instead of being framed.  Exhibition Fiber scratches easily so Print Shield provides some extra protection.  As a side effect, you reduce gloss differential too.  The prints get a little bit darker and warmer after spraying.
By the way, although I did not try to do this on purpose, it does not look like pigment inks can be wiped out that easily from glossy paper. The worst thing that I noticed from touching the prints I'm discarding is my fingerprints can be seen at certain angles.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Phil <panmedia@...> wrote:

>
> I usually use pigment ink on fine art matte paper. But for some images I 
> prefer the look on glossy paper. But pigment ink on glossy can be wiped 
> out easily. Anyone tried to spray a protection layer on glossy paper to 
> make pigment ink stay and adhere on the glossy paper? What is the spray 
> it can be used for this purpose?
> 
> Phil
>

I second that idea...scanning as positive/rgb and make sure the 
histogram is open at  both ends. I would also add that using Vuescan 
and doing a RAW scan is another way to get maximum information in 
black and white scans...
Personally, i have dropped the RGB needs but scan as 
grayscale/positive. The one thing is that the scan needs to be really 
"printed," in the old school way. Levels, curves...work it in PS 
because the scan is flat and needs attention. The payoff is that all 
the information is there...
Paul
-- 
Paul Kohl
Visiting Professor, Photography
Nanyang Technological University
Singapore

Paul Kohl schreef:
> I second that idea...scanning as positive/rgb and make sure the 
> histogram is open at  both ends. I would also add that using Vuescan 
> and doing a RAW scan is another way to get maximum information in 
> black and white scans...
> Personally, i have dropped the RGB needs but scan as 
> grayscale/positive. The one thing is that the scan needs to be really 
> "printed," in the old school way. Levels, curves...work it in PS 
> because the scan is flat and needs attention. The payoff is that all 
> the information is there...
> Paul

With Vuescan + B&W negatives I have used all possible routes for the 
Nikon 8000 and Epson V700.
In the end the greyscale negative scanning + one of the B&W negative 
"profile = film type + development" choices that let the image fit the 
histogram is what I use. The profile names do not mean you have to use 
that film type, just look at the histogram.16 bit Tiff output, Gamma 2.2 
and after that you like to bend the curves in PS anyway but an 
auto-level in PS usually doesn't alter the image so Vuescan and PS see 
that identical. didn't see a loss compared to RAW. If the negative is 
too thin it goes on the V700, otherwise on the Nikon, if size allows it. 
Wet mounted above 35mm.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Recently I have been making negative scans -- HDR scans in Silverfast-- with multiple passes (8). I believe this is the same a "raw scan" or "flat scan". All the controls are off and a very flat negative image is opened in Photoshop. After inverting, I work these files up slowly, starting with an empty curves layer set to multiply mode, which builds density as you move up the opacity slider. I'm mainly looking at the shadow areas as I do this, building up density until a good black is approached (don't go too far). Next is a levels layer, where the shadow and highlight end points are set, as well as a reasonable mid-tone contrast. Then a global curves layer for finer overall contrast adjustment. The file should look pretty good at that point, needing only local contrast adjustments. I have  found that starting out with the multiply layer makes the levels and curves layers more efficient. Of course, at the end of the process you can go back and iterate for a better balanced image.

This technique has saved a number of image files for me since I switched to it. I did not realize how much over adjustment the scanning software was imposing on my "problem" images.

Thanks Igor. I tried on a few different glossy paper. The black pigment 
from MIS, I think it is ebony, is easily wiped out or even wiped quite 
clean on certain glossy paper.

Though I mostly printed on matte surface, I observed that glossy 
surface, especially semi-glossy/semi matte/satin/luster, give us 
something aesthetically that 100% matte surface lacks.

Thanks,
Phil

igor_mountain wrote:

>
> You can use the same spray as you use on matte paper. I used 
> PremierArt Print Shield to spray Epson Exhibition Fiber color and 
> black and white prints that are put into an album instead of being 
> framed. Exhibition Fiber scratches easily so Print Shield provides 
> some extra protection. As a side effect, you reduce gloss differential 
> too. The prints get a little bit darker and warmer after spraying.
> By the way, although I did not try to do this on purpose, it does not 
> look like pigment inks can be wiped out that easily from glossy paper. 
> The worst thing that I noticed from touching the prints I'm discarding 
> is my fingerprints can be seen at certain angles.
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>, Phil 
> <panmedia@...> wrote:
> >
> > I usually use pigment ink on fine art matte paper. But for some 
> images I
> > prefer the look on glossy paper. But pigment ink on glossy can be wiped
> > out easily. Anyone tried to spray a protection layer on glossy paper to
> > make pigment ink stay and adhere on the glossy paper? What is the spray
> > it can be used for this purpose?
> >
> > Phil
> >
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "rgoldman2" <rgoldman@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Recently I have been making negative scans -- HDR scans in Silverfast-- with multiple passes (8). I believe this is the same a "raw scan" or "flat scan". All the controls are off and a very flat negative image is opened in Photoshop. After inverting, I work these files up slowly, starting with an empty curves layer set to multiply mode, which builds density as you move up the opacity slider. I'm mainly looking at the shadow areas as I do this, building up density until a good black is approached (don't go too far). Next is a levels layer, where the shadow and highlight end points are set, as well as a reasonable mid-tone contrast. Then a global curves layer for finer overall contrast adjustment. The file should look pretty good at that point, needing only local contrast adjustments. I have  found that starting out with the multiply layer makes the levels and curves layers more efficient. Of course, at the end of the process you can go back and iterate for a better balanced image.
> 
> This technique has saved a number of image files for me since I switched to it. I did not realize how much over adjustment the scanning software was imposing on my "problem" images.
>
This is an interesting input; I'll have to explore it.  But there's another point to make: sharpening also affects the histogram.  So, lately, I've been applying a post-scan sharpening step in PS prior to any curves adjustment.  This way, the curves adjustment is maintained in the final image  as intended.

Harry

Phil, 



In general you need to use a PK ink on glossy paper. Eboni is a MK ink intended for matte paper only. You can try using Print Shield to "lock it down" or over print it with GLOP. I've had a little success with Print Shield on Piezography K7 inks in some experiments. 



Check Paul Roark website also. He's done some work with MIS PK on glossy papers. 



Dave 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil" <panmedia@...> 
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 9:00:43 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Pigment ink on glossy paper with spray protection? 

Thanks Igor. I tried on a few different glossy paper. The black pigment 
from MIS, I think it is ebony, is easily wiped out or even wiped quite 
clean on certain glossy paper. 

Though I mostly printed on matte surface, I observed that glossy 
surface, especially semi-glossy/semi matte/satin/luster, give us 
something aesthetically that 100% matte surface lacks. 

Thanks, 
Phil 

igor_mountain wrote: 
> 
> You can use the same spray as you use on matte paper. I used 
> PremierArt Print Shield to spray Epson Exhibition Fiber color and 
> black and white prints that are put into an album instead of being 
> framed. Exhibition Fiber scratches easily so Print Shield provides 
> some extra protection. As a side effect, you reduce gloss differential 
> too. The prints get a little bit darker and warmer after spraying. 
> By the way, although I did not try to do this on purpose, it does not 
> look like pigment inks can be wiped out that easily from glossy paper. 
> The worst thing that I noticed from touching the prints I'm discarding 
> is my fingerprints can be seen at certain angles. 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>, Phil 
> <panmedia@...> wrote: 
> > 
> > I usually use pigment ink on fine art matte paper. But for some 
> images I 
> > prefer the look on glossy paper. But pigment ink on glossy can be wiped 
> > out easily. Anyone tried to spray a protection layer on glossy paper to 
> > make pigment ink stay and adhere on the glossy paper? What is the spray 
> > it can be used for this purpose? 
> > 
> > Phil 
> > 
> 
> 



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael, In using the Epson scanning software, I'd really recommend that you
pay attention to your output white and black points. they default to an un
godly amount in the less 20 range. I too played around a bit with various
setting with Epson scan, Vue Scan, Nikon Scan, and I fall into the same camp
at Ernst. Vue Scan and some develop curve however, each one is unique; just
like each frame of film.

 

 

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1

Let's Talk Photography

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:16 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] OT: b&w negative scanning issue

 

  

I hope this isn't too far off topic. I'm scanning some 4x5 b&w negs that I'm
having mixed results with. The problem is with the subject which is low
contrast landscape scenes with snow and trees/vegetation and an overcast
sky. The tree bark is the darkest part of the scene and meters in the field
at around zone 5 (incident) while the snow comes in 2-3 zones higher. The
equipment I'm scanning with is an Epson 4870 with the film scanning setup
for 4x5 negs. I'm also using Epson Scan.

So, I do a preview scan and pull up the histogram; next I isolate the image
with a marquee. I find the exposure pattern located entirely on the right
side with the black point/white point limits at 150 & 240 and the midpoint
at 1.50. The preview image is dark with the sliders pulled to these points.
A completed scan with the black/white points set as described produces a
dark, hard to evaluate image. The image also has a lot of pure black in the
shadows with no detail. 

Opening the image in PS and pulling up another histogram, I find the image
touching the black point but does not extend to the white point. However, a
triangle/exclamation pt. has appeared next to the histogram and I clicked it
to refresh the histogram. Now there is a one pixel high black line lying on
the bottom border and extending out to the white point marker at 255. (I'm
thinking this could be from dust on the negative during exposure and
creating a clear spot on it.) Now I pull the white point slider down to the
normal start of the white point of the histogram mountain (right side); the
image snaps to life. But there is too much pure black in areas that should
show some detail and no amount of fiddling can find detail in these areas.
As I mentioned earlier, the tree trunks were the darkest part of the scene
and metered around zone 5. So I'm thinking that these mid-grey areas are now
showing up as the pure black due to my placement of the black point during
scanning. (This is starting to make some sense as I write...)

But we're not done. I do a second scan and this time place the midpoint
slider, prior to final scanning, down where one would normally place the
black slider and place that slider lower in the space between the left
border and the start of the black end of the histogram - sort of in no-man's
land. Opening in PS I now have much less pure black and the midtones are in
a workable range. It's useable.

Is the lesson to be learned this: when the original scene is very low
contrast and the darkest point is equivalent to a mid-grey, scan the
negative so the midpoint slider points to the lowest end of the histogram
mountain? This seems to prevent the scanner from making these mid-grey areas
from turning pure black.

All comments and other ideas appreciated.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks to all those who posted ideas on how to deal with this issue; your comments are much appreciated and I'll be using them as I go forward with this scanning project. There's a lot of depth of knowledge on this forum and being able to tap into it is terrific. If I learn something relevant to this issue over the coming weeks/months, I'll post an update. Thanks again.

Michael K

Update on scanning issue: I've tried experimenting with all the suggestions given in the previous posts and have settled on a solution - unless I hear from folks here that this is a bad or marginal approach. Granted, I don't have a lot of experience scanning B&W film so I'm still on the lower slope of the learning curve. Here's the Epson Scan settings for what I've settled upon: all scans were 16 bit & 1200 dpi and the 4x5" B&W negatives were very flat (overcast winter scenes with extremely soft shadows, metered with incident meter and given extended development). I selected, in the configuration settings, "No Color Correction" which turned off all other options; thus, no histogram available, no unsharp mask, no grain reduction, and so on. A "flat scan."

These settings have given the most consistent scans over the half dozen negatives I've been testing; there's no pure whites or blacks. I then take them into PS and open a histogram adjustment layer; I click "Auto" to bring the black/white points to the point of clipping. I then save for later adjustments. Of the various methods tried, e.g., B&W Neg. Film, Positive Film, Color Neg. Film, and different histogram settings before scanning, the flat scan with the Auto adjust in PS produced the most normal appearing image from which to base further work. Am I missing anything with this approach? I'd like to get it right the first time so as to avoid redoing later on. Thanks.

My 7600 is giving me the message "Maintenance Required 0040".

I understand that this means that the cleaning pads need to be 
replaced -- but Epson says that a technician needs to do that, and at 
considerable expense!  The printer still works, and print quality seems fine.

* Can I replace those pads myself?  How does one obtain parts, and 
how hard is this to do?

* I've seen instructions on-line on how to just reset the 
counter?  Dare I do this?  Will it cause a mess in the printer later on?

* Any idea how to find instructions for repair of this printer on-line?

* Any other advice for somebody who had never examined the gizzards 
of the work-horse printer?

Thanks much,


Arthur Fink

        Arthur Fink Photography

     Studio / Gallery in Portland, Maine, and also on Peaks Island
     www.arthurfinkphoto.com af@...  207.615.5722

     Read, and comment on, my blog: www.InsightAndClarity.com

     Click on this link to 
<http://visitor.constantcontact.com/manage/optin/ea?v=001RgvbKVLa7a7RR4E6BV8sKw%3D%3D>join 
my e-mail 
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(via Constant Contact)
     for news about shows, art and spirit and creativity workshops,
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just do it, if it happens again you might want to change parts. Even  
Epson will tell you to reset it the first time.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On May 27, 2010, at 8:49 AM, Arthur Fink wrote:

> * I've seen instructions on-line on how to just reset the
> counter?  Dare I do this?  Will it cause a mess in the printer later  
> on?

The one suggestion I would make to your approach: carry your 
experiments to the end, i.e. make prints. You can't really make 
judgments about wether some approach is doing what you want  unless 
you see those results in the final form.
I assume there will be some sharpening done prior to printing. That 
is very important. Anyway, the next stage of the work needs to be 
included before you make your final decisions...
my dos centavos...
Paul


-- 
Paul Kohl
Visiting Professor, Photography
Nanyang Technological University
Singapore