Digital BW, The Print

Dear all,

I'm a long time user of QTR (on windows) and I'm still very happy with it. That is, for fine art printing. For more production-type of printing I regularly miss some options that other RIPs do provide so I'm looking around. 

I'm aware that some of you use StudioPrint, as I understand mostly with Cone inks since Jon Cone provides SP profiles with his inks. But does StudioPrint provide the same flexibility with custom BW ink sets as QTR does? 

I've installed the StudioPrint demo version, but do not see a way to get this done. One can define a multi-gray ink setup but I can't figure out if one also can e.g. add toner curves or use dual Eb-HP-PK just as QTR does.

Frankly, I would already be happy if I could just load data tables per curves. Then I could create curves in Excel and import them into StudioPrint. Is that possible? Is then StudioPrint sufficient or would I need ColorGPS as well (adding a significant amount to the bill)?

Joost

Dear Joost,
The best RIP I know is the following, with the links to their web. You can download atrial of the full version and if you need any help call Steve and mention my name and he will help you. Not only does it do what you are asking but a massive amount more including being able to lay up a complete Roll Full of prints for production printing and you are able to put what ever colours you want into what ever slot you wish and then tell the RIP where they are!!!! and what colour they are including spot colours. We use it ourselves for our Interior Design Substrates, Info Below:

Steven Greaves - Digifab
Skype: steve_DigiFib
Cell Phone: +1 2019514432
http://www.digifab.com/

Steve wrote the RIP

Regards

John_e
Dr. John Edmunds, 
Technical Director
Futures (Wales) Ltd.  
Technical Office, 
Brookhouse Farm
Church Eaton
Staffordshire, ST20 0BB
 +44 (0)1785   824 991
 +44 117 230 9839    (Skype-in No. UK)
 +1 585 200 5728    (Skype-in No. USA)
Skype: john_e
 




________________________________

From: horstenj <j.h.j.h@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 31 May, 2010 12:43:18
Subject: [Digital BW] Custom BW ink sets with StudioPrint

  
Dear all,

I'm a long time user of QTR (on windows) and I'm still very happy with it. That is, for fine art printing. For more production-type of printing I regularly miss some options that other RIPs do provide so I'm looking around. 

I'm aware that some of you use StudioPrint, as I understand mostly with Cone inks since Jon Cone provides SP profiles with his inks. But does StudioPrint provide the same flexibility with custom BW ink sets as QTR does? 

I've installed the StudioPrint demo version, but do not see a way to get this done. One can define a multi-gray ink setup but I can't figure out if one also can e.g. add toner curves or use dual Eb-HP-PK just as QTR does.

Frankly, I would already be happy if I could just load data tables per curves. Then I could create curves in Excel and import them into StudioPrint. Is that possible? Is then StudioPrint sufficient or would I need ColorGPS as well (adding a significant amount to the bill)?

Joost


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joost,

What are you trying to do that you can't do with QTR?

The one thing it doesn't have is page layout, but its probably easier to do
that in Photoshop than mess around with yet another piece of software :)

Mike

On 31 May 2010 12:43, horstenj <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:

>
>
> Dear all,
>
> I'm a long time user of QTR (on windows) and I'm still very happy with it.
> That is, for fine art printing. For more production-type of printing I
> regularly miss some options that other RIPs do provide so I'm looking
> around.
>
> I'm aware that some of you use StudioPrint, as I understand mostly with
> Cone inks since Jon Cone provides SP profiles with his inks. But does
> StudioPrint provide the same flexibility with custom BW ink sets as QTR
> does?
>
> I've installed the StudioPrint demo version, but do not see a way to get
> this done. One can define a multi-gray ink setup but I can't figure out if
> one also can e.g. add toner curves or use dual Eb-HP-PK just as QTR does.
>
> Frankly, I would already be happy if I could just load data tables per
> curves. Then I could create curves in Excel and import them into
> StudioPrint. Is that possible? Is then StudioPrint sufficient or would I
> need ColorGPS as well (adding a significant amount to the bill)?
>
> Joost
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maybe this will give you an idea of what can be done in SP - here are some of the ways I use it.

On a seven ink printer like the x600 I can obviously run K7 inks - but also its easy to run two of the Piezography PiezoTone ink sets because they are quads. So I only need to use one black which they can share - then a L,M, & D gray of say Carbon Sepia and Selenium Tone.  SP allows me to linearize each separately - or linearize a blend of the two - or to split tone from one to the other - or to split and blend...  linerization is their term for a set of curves.

On 8 ink printers like the x800 and x880 you could do the same, or expand into a neutral highlight or an additional tone modulator - SP allows you to blend 3 inks in one shade position if you wish...  run a modified K7 system...  some are running Glossy systems with it on the X800 and X880s. We use QTR for our glossy work.

On the Rolands, with SP D'Vinici I can split each head into two inks. So on my SJ I have 12 separate inks which I can do unlimited things with.

So SP is more than a layout program - it has some enormous flexibility if you work with monochromatic inks.

I prefer my profiler to the SP profiler so we use QTR for work which needs to have the most detail and smoothness - but I use SP when I want to be ink imaginative - as its quicker and easier than mapping it out in QTR - which I eventually am inclined to do so I can make my own curves architecture.

I see room for both QTR and SP.

regards,

Jon Cone
Piezography

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "horstenj" <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:

>
> Dear all,
> 
> I'm a long time user of QTR (on windows) and I'm still very happy with it. That is, for fine art printing. For more production-type of printing I regularly miss some options that other RIPs do provide so I'm looking around. 
> 
> I'm aware that some of you use StudioPrint, as I understand mostly with Cone inks since Jon Cone provides SP profiles with his inks. But does StudioPrint provide the same flexibility with custom BW ink sets as QTR does? 
> 
> I've installed the StudioPrint demo version, but do not see a way to get this done. One can define a multi-gray ink setup but I can't figure out if one also can e.g. add toner curves or use dual Eb-HP-PK just as QTR does.
> 
> Frankly, I would already be happy if I could just load data tables per curves. Then I could create curves in Excel and import them into StudioPrint. Is that possible? Is then StudioPrint sufficient or would I need ColorGPS as well (adding a significant amount to the bill)?
> 
> Joost
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:
>
> Joost,
> 
> What are you trying to do that you can't do with QTR?

There is nothing I cannot currently do with the tools I have, but sometimes it's a bit clumsy. QTR is absolutely fine for smaller volumes of prints, which is what I currently mainly do. However, I may have the option to do some more larger volume prints on a semi-commercial basis. And then more workflow support, layout options, printing directly from the application and borderless printing (to name a few) would come in very handy. 

Joost

Thanks Jon,

That's very useful first-hand experience!

> So SP is more than a layout program - it has some enormous flexibility if you work with monochromatic inks.

For my understanding: do you need ColormapGPS for these options or is that part of SP itself?
 
> I prefer my profiler to the SP profiler so we use QTR for work which needs to have the most detail and smoothness - but I use SP when I want to be ink imaginative - as its quicker and easier than mapping it out in QTR - which I eventually am inclined to do so I can make my own curves architecture.

Do I then understand correctly that you can import the output of your own profiler to QTR (Icould see how you would do that) but this NOT possible with SP?

Joost

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John <charleysfabrics@...> wrote:
>
> 
>  Dear Joost,
>
> The best RIP I know is the following, with the links to their web. > http://www.digifab.com/

Thanks John,

I'll have a look.

Joost

You only need GPS with color inks. It is a color ICC profiler.

I can only make profiles that are QTR compatible but not editable. I can't make profiles for StudioPrint - but I can make individual ink channels that take the place of profiles and I can run SP in up to 8 individual channels.

But SP has a linearization function for up to seven shades of ink. They supported Piezography until Epson pulled the plug on that (X880 printers last supported Piezo models.)

There are a total of seven shades of monochromatic ink that can be combined into a "profile". It is possible to combine up to three individual inks into one "shade" - its rich in terms of b&w.

Jon Cone
Piezography

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "horstenj" <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks Jon,
> 
> That's very useful first-hand experience!
> 
> > So SP is more than a layout program - it has some enormous flexibility if you work with monochromatic inks.
> 
> For my understanding: do you need ColormapGPS for these options or is that part of SP itself?
>  
> > I prefer my profiler to the SP profiler so we use QTR for work which needs to have the most detail and smoothness - but I use SP when I want to be ink imaginative - as its quicker and easier than mapping it out in QTR - which I eventually am inclined to do so I can make my own curves architecture.
> 
> Do I then understand correctly that you can import the output of your own profiler to QTR (Icould see how you would do that) but this NOT possible with SP?
> 
> Joost
>

John,

Unless they are hiding it somewhere on the website - this RIP only has rudimentary black & white capabilities. It is not a monochromatic ink RIP.

Perhaps you can share with the rest of us how you use it for black & white printing. It's always good to know if there are other products out there.

I would especially be interested if it has any capabilities for making profiles with black dilutions from 4 to seven shades.

Thanks,

Jon Cone
Piezography


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "horstenj" <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John <charleysfabrics@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> >  Dear Joost,
> >
> > The best RIP I know is the following, with the links to their web. > http://www.digifab.com/
> 
> Thanks John,
> 
> I'll have a look.
> 
> Joost
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "piezobw" <jon@...> wrote:
>
> You only need GPS with color inks. It is a color ICC profiler.
> 
> I can only make profiles that are QTR compatible but not editable. I can't make profiles for StudioPrint - but I can make individual ink channels that take the place of profiles and I can run SP in up to 8 individual channels.
> 
> But SP has a linearization function for up to seven shades of ink. They supported Piezography until Epson pulled the plug on that (X880 printers last supported Piezo models.)
> 
> There are a total of seven shades of monochromatic ink that can be combined into a "profile". It is possible to combine up to three individual inks into one "shade" - its rich in terms of b&w.
> 

Thanks again Jon,

Based on your comments I looked again to the studioprint options. To clarify: there seems to be NO possibility to import user curves per ink channel like one can in QTR.

 If that would be possible, one could make an own profiler/curve editing tool and all possible ink strategies would be open. But again, that seems not te be the case, right? Or am I missing something (which I hope)?

Joost

Yes, I think that what you are missing is how SP does monochrome - and are instead trying to make it a glorified QTR system or a QTR with layout - which it is neither.

SP does not use "curves". It has an automatic profiler for up to seven shades of ink. You make a group of ink shades by specifying which ink slot is which shade, or / and which combination of ink slots is a shade.  Then you print out a target and measure - and the internal profiler organizes a "profile" it calls a "linearization".

So with SP - ALL INK POSSIBILITIES ARE OPEN, and only limited by your imagination. But only when you conceive of a group of ink shades being automatically profiles into a smooth tonal response.

You can create only one linearization at a time and use only one. You can not have a combination of linearizations printing at one time.

Let's say you used seven ink shades (like Piezography K7). SP can create a profile.

or

produce a quad black profile
or a profile based upon blending of inks (two sets of quads?)
or to split tone between two sets of quads, etc....

You can make a monochromatic linearization on from 2 to 7 shades of ink. The process is the same. Organizing the shades by ink slot, printing the target, measuring the target. Everything occurring within the standard SP software - your needing only an instrument such as an Eye One.

Hope that clarifies,

Jon Cone
Piezography

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "horstenj" <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "piezobw" <jon@> wrote:
> >
> > You only need GPS with color inks. It is a color ICC profiler.
> > 
> > I can only make profiles that are QTR compatible but not editable. I can't make profiles for StudioPrint - but I can make individual ink channels that take the place of profiles and I can run SP in up to 8 individual channels.
> > 
> > But SP has a linearization function for up to seven shades of ink. They supported Piezography until Epson pulled the plug on that (X880 printers last supported Piezo models.)
> > 
> > There are a total of seven shades of monochromatic ink that can be combined into a "profile". It is possible to combine up to three individual inks into one "shade" - its rich in terms of b&w.
> > 
> 
> Thanks again Jon,
> 
> Based on your comments I looked again to the studioprint options. To clarify: there seems to be NO possibility to import user curves per ink channel like one can in QTR.
> 
>  If that would be possible, one could make an own profiler/curve editing tool and all possible ink strategies would be open. But again, that seems not te be the case, right? Or am I missing something (which I hope)?
> 
> Joost
>

Yes, I think that what you are missing is how SP does monochrome - and are instead trying to make it a glorified QTR system or a QTR with layout - which it is neither.

SP does not use "curves". It has an automatic profiler for up to seven shades of ink. You make a group of ink shades by specifying which ink slot is which shade, or / and which combination of ink slots is a shade.  Then you print out a target and measure - and the internal profiler organizes a "profile" it calls a "linearization".

So with SP - ALL INK POSSIBILITIES ARE OPEN, and only limited by your imagination. But only when you conceive of a group of ink shades being automatically profiles into a smooth tonal response.

You can create only one linearization at a time and use only one. You can not have a combination of linearizations printing at one time.

Let's say you used seven ink shades (like Piezography K7). SP can create a profile.

or

produce a quad black profile
or a profile based upon blending of inks (two sets of quads?)
or to split tone between two sets of quads, etc....

You can make a monochromatic linearization on from 2 to 7 shades of ink. The process is the same. Organizing the shades by ink slot, printing the target, measuring the target. Everything occurring within the standard SP software - your needing only an instrument such as an Eye One.

Hope that clarifies,

Jon Cone
Piezography

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "horstenj" <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "piezobw" <jon@> wrote:
> >
> > You only need GPS with color inks. It is a color ICC profiler.
> > 
> > I can only make profiles that are QTR compatible but not editable. I can't make profiles for StudioPrint - but I can make individual ink channels that take the place of profiles and I can run SP in up to 8 individual channels.
> > 
> > But SP has a linearization function for up to seven shades of ink. They supported Piezography until Epson pulled the plug on that (X880 printers last supported Piezo models.)
> > 
> > There are a total of seven shades of monochromatic ink that can be combined into a "profile". It is possible to combine up to three individual inks into one "shade" - its rich in terms of b&w.
> > 
> 
> Thanks again Jon,
> 
> Based on your comments I looked again to the studioprint options. To clarify: there seems to be NO possibility to import user curves per ink channel like one can in QTR.
> 
>  If that would be possible, one could make an own profiler/curve editing tool and all possible ink strategies would be open. But again, that seems not te be the case, right? Or am I missing something (which I hope)?
> 
> Joost
>

I'd add, just from the standpoint of other inkset/qtr work, that it will not do a single "toner" ink in parallel with a multi part k setup, and have it print directly from a grayscale file, like qtr users may be accustomed to, that don't use Jon's K4/6/7 monocrhrome setups.
You can set up an ink as a spot channel, in addition to a multiK channel, in an SP environment, and it is individually linearized, which is great, but you have to add a spot channel to your file and setup up its content before sending off to the RIP. There are a few other complications, but that's the idea.
So simple UC 3 part mono + 2 part toner setups like QTR comes with are not a simple RIP setup. 
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "piezobw" <jon@...> wrote:

>
> Yes, I think that what you are missing is how SP does monochrome - and are instead trying to make it a glorified QTR system or a QTR with layout - which it is neither.
> 
> SP does not use "curves". It has an automatic profiler for up to seven shades of ink. You make a group of ink shades by specifying which ink slot is which shade, or / and which combination of ink slots is a shade.  Then you print out a target and measure - and the internal profiler organizes a "profile" it calls a "linearization".
> 
> So with SP - ALL INK POSSIBILITIES ARE OPEN, and only limited by your imagination. But only when you conceive of a group of ink shades being automatically profiles into a smooth tonal response.
> 
> You can create only one linearization at a time and use only one. You can not have a combination of linearizations printing at one time.
> 
> Let's say you used seven ink shades (like Piezography K7). SP can create a profile.
> 
> or
> 
> produce a quad black profile
> or a profile based upon blending of inks (two sets of quads?)
> or to split tone between two sets of quads, etc....
> 
> You can make a monochromatic linearization on from 2 to 7 shades of ink. The process is the same. Organizing the shades by ink slot, printing the target, measuring the target. Everything occurring within the standard SP software - your needing only an instrument such as an Eye One.
> 
> Hope that clarifies,
> 
> Jon Cone
> Piezography
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "horstenj" <j.h.j.h@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "piezobw" <jon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You only need GPS with color inks. It is a color ICC profiler.
> > > 
> > > I can only make profiles that are QTR compatible but not editable. I can't make profiles for StudioPrint - but I can make individual ink channels that take the place of profiles and I can run SP in up to 8 individual channels.
> > > 
> > > But SP has a linearization function for up to seven shades of ink. They supported Piezography until Epson pulled the plug on that (X880 printers last supported Piezo models.)
> > > 
> > > There are a total of seven shades of monochromatic ink that can be combined into a "profile". It is possible to combine up to three individual inks into one "shade" - its rich in terms of b&w.
> > > 
> > 
> > Thanks again Jon,
> > 
> > Based on your comments I looked again to the studioprint options. To clarify: there seems to be NO possibility to import user curves per ink channel like one can in QTR.
> > 
> >  If that would be possible, one could make an own profiler/curve editing tool and all possible ink strategies would be open. But again, that seems not te be the case, right? Or am I missing something (which I hope)?
> > 
> > Joost
> >
>

Thanks Jon and Tyler,

This clarifies my puzzle. Indeed I was looking whether SP could be this "glorified QTR" with toners added to a monochrome quad inkset. I understand it isn't. I'll leave it there for now. Perhaps returning to it later.

Kind regards,

Joost

It's such a fantastic tool though, I have to say, once you get a handle on it and start thinking outside the box. It's undoubtedly the single most utilized tool I have when it comes to doing things with ink, whether OEM or Jon's sets, and pushing the abilities of ink on paper. Other than the particulars of custom partitioning curves for  a multi part channel, like Jon does with QTR, there is not a single thing I have wanted to do that could not be worked out somehow between it's control and Photoshop channels.
But it's a daunting Pandora's box to open initially... and it won't do a damn thing for you, you have to tell it what to do, and figure how how to tell it.
Too bad it's not moving forward for the needs of the community frequenting this list.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "horstenj" <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks Jon and Tyler,
> 
> This clarifies my puzzle. Indeed I was looking whether SP could be this "glorified QTR" with toners added to a monochrome quad inkset. I understand it isn't. I'll leave it there for now. Perhaps returning to it later.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Joost
>

actually, it seems to be moving backward... I've just found out that probably after installing the latest version that I cannot change inks to anything other than epson intended or go monochromatic on 3800, which was always possible. I can still do that on all other x800 printers... funny like that. just to annoy me further, my local dealer is an incompetent idiot who doesn't even bother to answer my questions and their central doesn't speak to people directly and tells me to speak to my local dealer... ehh.

but other than that yeah, it's a great tool. seriously.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

>
> It's such a fantastic tool though, I have to say, once you get a handle on it and start thinking outside the box. It's undoubtedly the single most utilized tool I have when it comes to doing things with ink, whether OEM or Jon's sets, and pushing the abilities of ink on paper. Other than the particulars of custom partitioning curves for  a multi part channel, like Jon does with QTR, there is not a single thing I have wanted to do that could not be worked out somehow between it's control and Photoshop channels.
> But it's a daunting Pandora's box to open initially... and it won't do a damn thing for you, you have to tell it what to do, and figure how how to tell it.
> Too bad it's not moving forward for the needs of the community frequenting this list.
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "horstenj" <j.h.j.h@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Jon and Tyler,
> > 
> > This clarifies my puzzle. Indeed I was looking whether SP could be this "glorified QTR" with toners added to a monochrome quad inkset. I understand it isn't. I'll leave it there for now. Perhaps returning to it later.
> > 
> > Kind regards,
> > 
> > Joost
> >
>