Digital BW, The Print

I have just now retired Epson 4000. It has an over heating problem which is not worth fixing. (I replaced it with a 4900 the price for which just dropped about one-third.)

The 4000/Epson ink combination was not good for b&w and since I occasionally like do to b&w, I'm thinking about dedicating the 4000 to it. What would be good ink to use? I looked at UT 3D inks for the 4000. It doesn't say they are carbon inks, are they?

I'm open to suggestions. Thanks.

DX

"danielxshea" <danielxshea@...> wrote:
>
> ... I'm thinking about dedicating the 4000 to it. What would be good ink to use? I looked at UT 3D inks for the 4000. It doesn't say they are carbon inks, are they?

The 3D inks have one channel carbon and the others are blends of carbon and color pigments.

The most neutral 100% carbon inkset you'll find is the Eboni-6 (or Carbon-6) approach.  (Black only, un-diluted Eboni would be more neutral but too rough.)  So, if you want 100% carbon and relatively neutral (on some papers like Epson Hot Press or Premier Smooth BW), the dilute Eboni inksets are all that is available.  All the others that are neutral are blends. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Well I'm a little confused about how many shades of carts there are in the EB6 set. I see references to both six and eight colors. Of course, the 4000 is an eight-color printer. 

The Eboni set of 4 oz bottles and empty carts would be an inexpensive experiment. I already have QTR.

On the other hand, Cone inks seem expensive and less flexible in that it looks like you have to pick your b&w tone and surface before the fact.

On the other other hand, I just did my first 4900 Epson driver b&w print on Moab Colorado Satine and see no color cast with my old eyes.

DX

Hello Daniel,

First, the 4000 is a 7 color printer because you cannot use PK AND MK at the same time.

What I have done is use the following inks for a dedicated b/w printer that can print on matte (MK) and gloss type (PK) papers. All inks are Image Specialists (except PK):

(1) PK - I use OEM K3 PK because it has higher Dmax than 3rd party
(2) MK - Eboni
(3) LK from the K4 set
(4) LLK from the K4 set
(5) LC from K4 set
(6) LM from K4 set
(7) Blue from the R1800 compatible inks
(8) Gloss Optimizer

So the print tones can range from very warm (K, LK, and LLK only) to very cold tones. You can apply second pass GLOP to get densities as high as 2.8 on some papers. This approach can be modified depending on your needs. But this very versatile, and it can do things that Epson OEM cannot do. And, you can fine tune the print color to your heart's content.

Good luck.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielxshea" <danielxshea@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> Well I'm a little confused about how many shades of carts there are in the EB6 set. I see references to both six and eight colors. Of course, the 4000 is an eight-color printer. 
> 
> The Eboni set of 4 oz bottles and empty carts would be an inexpensive experiment. I already have QTR.
> 
> On the other hand, Cone inks seem expensive and less flexible in that it looks like you have to pick your b&w tone and surface before the fact.
> 
> On the other other hand, I just did my first 4900 Epson driver b&w print on Moab Colorado Satine and see no color cast with my old eyes.
> 
> DX
>

"danielxshea" <danielxshea@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Well I'm a little confused about how many shades of carts there are in the EB6 set.

There are 6 dilutions, including the 100% MK.  The LK (18%) is used in both the M and LK positions.  In K3 printers, which have a higher gray substitution, the LLK and LK use the 9% and 30% dilutions (Eb6-LC and C).



> The Eboni set of 4 oz bottles and empty carts would be an inexpensive experiment. 


Carbon-6 is Eboni diluted with a user mixed base.  It's very cheap and what I use in my 7800.  The results of it and Eboni-6 are the essentially the same.  (The generic base is more compatible with other inks but has no biocides, which might be good or bad depending on the conditions and personal preferences.  I've never seen a problem.)  Those who want to mix get lower ink costs.  Those who don't want to mix pay MIS to do it for them.  



> 
> On the other hand, Cone inks seem expensive and less flexible in that it looks like you have to pick your b&w tone and surface before the fact.

Well, Eboni-6 is a matte only, slight to medium warm monotone inkset.  It's not very flexible.  That's why I now have "Eboni-4 Plus" in my 1400.  It adds 2 positions of a neutral (usually) glossy compatible ink that allows neutral and glossy printing.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-4-Plus.pdf  This is a relatively early draft, but I think you'll get the idea.  With my 7800, I use 5 positions of Eboni(Carbon)-6 and 3 of another ink.  Currently I have MIS warm carbons in there for sepia tone printing on glossy paper.  

Previously I had HP PK + Lk and LLK (mixed with the generic base) for neutral matte and glossy printing.  HP Z3100 PK is the best neutralized carbon I've found.  It's tonal stability in Aardenburg testing is just amazing.  HP really did its homework.  It dilutes very well with the generic base, thus resulting in a total inkset cost that is down with third party bulk prices.  I'm big on getting the best for the least.  (I.e., I'm cheap.)

 
> On the other other hand, I just did my first 4900 Epson driver b&w print on Moab Colorado Satine and see no color cast with my old eyes.


Most people these days just stick with the OEM inks and ABW type workflows.  We can do better (image and longevity) for less money, but most don't care about the differences. It appears the ABW works best with OEM inks. I've heard that MIS inks with their warmer carbon LK and LLK, and maybe colors that are not quite equal to the OEM colors results in un-even tones from light to dark.  Also, frankly, the OEM inks are all I'd trust for longevity over the long haul.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"shileshjani" <janishilesh@...> wrote:
>
>
> What I have done is use the following inks for a dedicated b/w printer that can print on matte (MK) and gloss type (PK) papers. All inks are Image Specialists (except PK):
> 
> (1) PK - I use OEM K3 PK because it has higher Dmax than 3rd party
> (2) MK - Eboni
> (3) LK from the K4 set
> (4) LLK from the K4 set
> (5) LC from K4 set
> (6) LM from K4 set
> (7) Blue from the R1800 compatible inks
> (8) Gloss Optimizer
> 
> ...

You find that single blue to give good color?  I find the color way to magenta. (HP's is the same.) 

I wish there was a single-color-pigment toner that offset the carbon color, but I have yet to find one that is prepared for inkjet use that I like.  

There is a pigment I've found that is the right color -- Daniel Smith's Indanthrone blue.  I've even printed with it.  But without the proper inkjet pigment prep, it's not something I'd recommend.  We need a company like IS to take up this challenge and do what needs to be done to give us a "carbon tone offset" that is a single pigment, but the market is probably too small to make such an effort possible.  

One huge advantage of a single pigment (not a blend) toner is that the fade path would be straight back to carbon -- the prints would not turn green; they'd just warm up, and much more slowly than when the OBA dyes fade.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I use the blue ink only to tone the shadow range of print densities, where I like the "purple" look. I have not done much in the way making colorimetrically neutral prints.

The ability to selectively blend 3 curves in QTR is very useful in arriving at the desired print color.

Printing at 2880 dpi, the highlights are smooth, although dots can be visible with a loupe. I prefer not to have a dilution lower than LLK because of the potential color conflict with paper white.

The mid and highlight toning is done mostly with LM and LC (LM is usually higher ink limited than LC by 1 to 2 units in QTR).

Let me know if you want me to send you a wedge and 21 step print.

Shilesh


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "shileshjani" <janishilesh@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > What I have done is use the following inks for a dedicated b/w printer that can print on matte (MK) and gloss type (PK) papers. All inks are Image Specialists (except PK):
> > 
> > (1) PK - I use OEM K3 PK because it has higher Dmax than 3rd party
> > (2) MK - Eboni
> > (3) LK from the K4 set
> > (4) LLK from the K4 set
> > (5) LC from K4 set
> > (6) LM from K4 set
> > (7) Blue from the R1800 compatible inks
> > (8) Gloss Optimizer
> > 
> > ...
> 
> You find that single blue to give good color?  I find the color way to magenta. (HP's is the same.) 
> 
> I wish there was a single-color-pigment toner that offset the carbon color, but I have yet to find one that is prepared for inkjet use that I like.  
> 
> There is a pigment I've found that is the right color -- Daniel Smith's Indanthrone blue.  I've even printed with it.  But without the proper inkjet pigment prep, it's not something I'd recommend.  We need a company like IS to take up this challenge and do what needs to be done to give us a "carbon tone offset" that is a single pigment, but the market is probably too small to make such an effort possible.  
> 
> One huge advantage of a single pigment (not a blend) toner is that the fade path would be straight back to carbon -- the prints would not turn green; they'd just warm up, and much more slowly than when the OBA dyes fade.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Shilesh,


> I use the blue ink only to tone the shadow range of print densities, where I like the "purple" look.

I think the OEM PK might be a bit on the greenish side, so I can see where that'd work well.

 
> The ability to selectively blend 3 curves in QTR is very useful in arriving at the desired print color.

Definitely.

For those who want glossy + matte, the MIS glossy carbons (K4 or MP) plus the colors needed for toning makes a lot of sense.  

I moved from the MIS LM to R800 blue in the MIS inksets -- getting rid of the MIS LM entirely.  The R800 blue allows one to use less Lc in neutralizing the carbon, thus, perhaps, lessening the green shift.  In general, the lower the angle between the toning inks, the less color is needed to achieve the ideal carbon yellow offset (I think -- a few assumptions there).  My fade tests were not entirely consistent in showing an advantage to this approach, but I think they provided some weak evidence that the theory is correct.  

Epson R800 blue is not available in bulk, but the HP equivalent Z3100 ink is, and that might make a major difference in longevity.  At one point I thought of making a toner with the HP inks, but then decided to just stick with the Eboni/Carbon-6 and neutral HP PK (or UT14 or Noritsu) for glossy or more neutrality.  If I decide to get serious about glossy fine art, I might still go the route of MIS carbon + HP colors (cyan and blue).  

I might add that one of the main reasons I might be interested in "glossy" fine art is the ability to display it without glazing.  I used shadow boxes with silver prints before I was selling, and I was pleased to see Marc Muench, in his first museum exhibit, hosted by our local Wildling Museum (see http://www.wildlingmuseum.org/) used a type of shadow boxes for all his color and B&W.  That exhibit, for those within range of Los Olivos, California, is an outstanding display.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Glassless framing - ah ha! That is exactly what I have done recently. I am printing my images on Ilford Gold Fiber Silk paper, followed by 2 to 3 overcoats of GLOP. The 16 x 32 images are all all cotton overmatted (double matt) by 4 inches all sides, acid free foam core is the backing, and slid into simple black sectional metal frames. I "hang" these on the walls using thumb tacks. The glass-less frames are light enough to be held by thumb tacks, and my walls do not get damaged.

Glass-less framing makes the image so much more accessible, and very dramatic when the Dmax is in the 2.8 range.

Shilesh


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> Shilesh,
> 
> 
> > I use the blue ink only to tone the shadow range of print densities, where I like the "purple" look.
> 
> I think the OEM PK might be a bit on the greenish side, so I can see where that'd work well.
> 
>  
> > The ability to selectively blend 3 curves in QTR is very useful in arriving at the desired print color.
> 
> Definitely.
> 
> For those who want glossy + matte, the MIS glossy carbons (K4 or MP) plus the colors needed for toning makes a lot of sense.  
> 
> I moved from the MIS LM to R800 blue in the MIS inksets -- getting rid of the MIS LM entirely.  The R800 blue allows one to use less Lc in neutralizing the carbon, thus, perhaps, lessening the green shift.  In general, the lower the angle between the toning inks, the less color is needed to achieve the ideal carbon yellow offset (I think -- a few assumptions there).  My fade tests were not entirely consistent in showing an advantage to this approach, but I think they provided some weak evidence that the theory is correct.  
> 
> Epson R800 blue is not available in bulk, but the HP equivalent Z3100 ink is, and that might make a major difference in longevity.  At one point I thought of making a toner with the HP inks, but then decided to just stick with the Eboni/Carbon-6 and neutral HP PK (or UT14 or Noritsu) for glossy or more neutrality.  If I decide to get serious about glossy fine art, I might still go the route of MIS carbon + HP colors (cyan and blue).  
> 
> I might add that one of the main reasons I might be interested in "glossy" fine art is the ability to display it without glazing.  I used shadow boxes with silver prints before I was selling, and I was pleased to see Marc Muench, in his first museum exhibit, hosted by our local Wildling Museum (see http://www.wildlingmuseum.org/) used a type of shadow boxes for all his color and B&W.  That exhibit, for those within range of Los Olivos, California, is an outstanding display.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

> Glassless framing - ah ha! That is exactly what I have done recently.

For the local Elverhoj Museum exhibit of the historic old photos that I restored we use MIS carbon (no toning) on Museo Silver Rag.  We then simply had them mounted on black Gator board.  I think they look great.

One thing I like about the MIS un-coated pigs is that they have almost no reflective artifacts on at least the Museo.  I didn't use any extra glop.  I've found with HP pigs, if they are diluted in MIS glop they too lose the bad bronzing they otherwise exhibit.  So, for a B&W where high gloss is not needed, one can get the HP longevity without the bronzing. 

> I am printing my images on Ilford Gold Fiber Silk paper, followed by 2 to 3 overcoats of GLOP.

Do you find several light applications of glop (as opposed to a single heavy overcoat) avoids fouling of the exit rollers?

> The 16 x 32 images are all all cotton overmatted ...

Do you have any trouble with the mats getting soiled?

 
> Glass-less framing makes the image so much more accessible, ...

It does have it's advantages, but the mat and print are also more exposed to damage.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com