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Talk about intimidating

Talk about intimidating

2011-02-25 by Rusty Sterling

I made a conscious decision at the beginning of this year to focus exclusively (except for client needs) on BW photography. Printing certainly has been an issue, although the Epson R2880 with ABW has helped a lot in that regard.

So now I have read all of the Paul Roark articles on his site and Clayton Jones articles. I not only feel intimidated by the technology but thoroughly confused by some of the procedures.

Obviously some of this stuff was written a few years ago and there have been some changes. When I read some of the articles and look at the screens on my Mac some things just are not there as described. So I try and extrapolate what I can and try and find something equivalent -- not always successfully.

Meantime, I'm using my old R200 to print BO until my MIS inksets arrive. I get some banding that I'm not happy with but you have to look very closely to see it. In general, though, thanks to some settings outlined by Jones, I'm seeing better results both on the R200 and 2880.

Nonetheless, I feel a lot of confusion, have a lot of questions, and experience some frustration trying to soak it all in for this process.

But it is important to me to get back to my BW roots. The difference is that I worked in a darkroom then and digital is such a different animal. 

Just venting a bit. ;^)

Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

2011-02-25 by Lew

Don't blame you. I'm in the same boat. I must say though, that most of the prints I've made with minimal Lightroom intervention and only  marginal understanding of the technical side ... are fine. 
Lew
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: "Rusty Sterling" <rustysterling@...>
Sender: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:33:27 
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

I made a conscious decision at the beginning of this year to focus exclusively (except for client needs) on BW photography. Printing certainly has been an issue, although the Epson R2880 with ABW has helped a lot in that regard.

So now I have read all of the Paul Roark articles on his site and Clayton Jones articles. I not only feel intimidated by the technology but thoroughly confused by some of the procedures.

Obviously some of this stuff was written a few years ago and there have been some changes. When I read some of the articles and look at the screens on my Mac some things just are not there as described. So I try and extrapolate what I can and try and find something equivalent -- not always successfully.

Meantime, I'm using my old R200 to print BO until my MIS inksets arrive. I get some banding that I'm not happy with but you have to look very closely to see it. In general, though, thanks to some settings outlined by Jones, I'm seeing better results both on the R200 and 2880.

Nonetheless, I feel a lot of confusion, have a lot of questions, and experience some frustration trying to soak it all in for this process.

But it is important to me to get back to my BW roots. The difference is that I worked in a darkroom then and digital is such a different animal. 

Just venting a bit. ;^)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

2011-02-25 by Rusty Sterling

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lew" <lew1716@...> wrote:
>
> Don't blame you. I'm in the same boat. I must say though, that most of the prints I've made with minimal Lightroom intervention and only  marginal understanding of the technical side ... are fine. 
> Lew

I will say that I like the implied KISS approach of Clayton Jones and certainly will continue in that vein. Still, I'm a geek too and love technology. So I want to explore that too. But I don't want to get mired in the technology.

I'm getting some nice results with the 2880 thanks to the K3 inks and ABW. All of this also has made me much more cognizant of the zonal qualities of prints. I guess it is all "work in progress" for me.

Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

2011-02-25 by Paul Grant

Rusty
Have you sorted out if you prefer the PK or MK for black and white. 

Paul Grant
http://paulgrantphotography.com

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 25, 2011, at 11:25 AM, "Rusty Sterling" <rustysterling@...> wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lew" <lew1716@...> wrote:
> >
> > Don't blame you. I'm in the same boat. I must say though, that most of the prints I've made with minimal Lightroom intervention and only marginal understanding of the technical side ... are fine. 
> > Lew
> 
> I will say that I like the implied KISS approach of Clayton Jones and certainly will continue in that vein. Still, I'm a geek too and love technology. So I want to explore that too. But I don't want to get mired in the technology.
> 
> I'm getting some nice results with the 2880 thanks to the K3 inks and ABW. All of this also has made me much more cognizant of the zonal qualities of prints. I guess it is all "work in progress" for me.
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

2011-02-25 by Rusty Sterling

Paul
Right now, I'm using primarily PK because of the paper stocks I have on hand. But I do like matte prints and have experimented with Hahnemuhle Bamboo -- at first kind of disastrously but more recently with better results.

I am comfortable with PK particularly using Ilford Gold Fiber Silk paper. I'm getting results that I'm pretty happy with. Still, I'm very self critical and always believe I can do better.

But I'm kind of at the beginning of my process and who knows which way the winds will blow.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Paul Grant <studiopbg@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Rusty
> Have you sorted out if you prefer the PK or MK for black and white. 
> 
> Paul Grant
> http://paulgrantphotography.com
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Feb 25, 2011, at 11:25 AM, "Rusty Sterling" <rustysterling@...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lew" <lew1716@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Don't blame you. I'm in the same boat. I must say though, that most of the prints I've made with minimal Lightroom intervention and only marginal understanding of the technical side ... are fine. 
> > > Lew
> > 
> > I will say that I like the implied KISS approach of Clayton Jones and certainly will continue in that vein. Still, I'm a geek too and love technology. So I want to explore that too. But I don't want to get mired in the technology.
> > 
> > I'm getting some nice results with the 2880 thanks to the K3 inks and ABW. All of this also has made me much more cognizant of the zonal qualities of prints. I guess it is all "work in progress" for me.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Talk about intimidating

2011-02-25 by Paul

> ... confused 

I try to work and communicate with as much of the experience spectrum as I can.

The 1100 EZ approach that has been a primary focus of mine recently is an attempt to turn the cheapest 13" printer into a very easy one that can produce the best possible results. The MIS EZ products have enjoyed a very large market.  I use that approach for my college kids to minimize costs -- including support costs.  The 1100 takes this to 13" -- and beyond by making it open source and with a path to high end printing.

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1100.pdf

I'm always trying to push the envelope on what I can do with the current inkjet and software technology, and I post information about what I'm doing and finding. Some of this, no doubt, is confusing.  

For example, this afternoon I'm going to load MIS glossy carbon into the 1100 to try and make the best inkjet 100% carbon films for long term storage and copying that I can make. Current tests indicate that at the 16x20 level a print made from one of these 8x10, easy-to-store copies  will be visually equal to the original.  We'll see.  This won't directly benefit many people, but it might help some and is an interesting exercise. It's part of a specific effort to find the best storage medium for the local museum.  At the same time, however, I'll be making and publishing profiles for workflows that are open source and directly applicable to making the best possible glossy prints (and maybe negatives) with this platform and any standard pigment inkset. 


> ...  have a lot of questions ...

That is what this forum is for, and there are lots of people who have been willing to help.

 
> ... I worked in a darkroom then and digital is such a different animal. 


Yes, the technology of printing (and taking) B&W photographs is different, and there is a long learning curve.  At the same time, there are also quite accessible alternative approaches.  Part of the problem is to be able to sort out what to ignore and how to find what you're looking for.  Asking questions on this forum will help. 

Slightly off the subject, I find that once one is comfortable with basic image editing tools and can make a good print with whatever inkjet technology is easiest for them, the art and eye that was trained in the darkroom is very much the same.  The final medium of B&W prints has not changed much. In a sense, it's a conservative medium with a rich history.

Back to the technology side and this forum (a Yahoo Tech Group), I try to make my main B&W Info page an overview of my current approaches and opinions.  

Much that is still on the web is old.  Look at the dates on the PDFs.  I move forward and support only a few platforms currently.  Saving a few bucks on an old and poorly supported printer is a bad trade. 

The 1280 and UT2 are ancient history for me.  Yet, there are still people who use that system.  I'm not in the ink selling business (aside from what is on my prints).  My interests are to push the technology forward, while at the same time pursuing my curiosity. 

I am not one who thinks the OEM K3 solutions are bad. I just enjoy doing something that I think is more interesting, better in some respects, and cheaper always.  After the OEMs took the middle of the market, the areas where I think third party approaches can have the most effect are at the entry level and high end.  

"Playing" the Epson 1100, like a new instrument, may hit some notes that resonate with many (I'd bet on the "EZ" -- open source LK -- 1100 approach), but my experiments will also hit some notes that just go flat.  I apologize if there are too many flat, sour, or confusing notes.
 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/

Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

2011-02-26 by Phillip Kimble

Rusty,

First & foremost, welcome to the "dark side". Er, I mean the "carbon" side of 
life. The processes and technology can be a bit overwhelming. It is no different 
than spending hours trying to perfect the spooling of film onto the wire spool 
or perfecting contact printing. No different than trying to understand why teh 
print has a slight yellow tinit.

As in any trade, to learn requires pateince and time. To become expert requires 
learning. To become a master requires vision. We are or have all gone through 
the same learning curve. The trick is to print, observe, understand, and try 
again. Quite simple if you ask most but rather difficult to become much more 
than a novice at the skill. To seek is to understand and to understand is to 
have patience. Nothing is for free and everything that is for free is not 
worthwhile. Ask and we shall try to help. We ask that you simply try.


 

________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Rusty Sterling <rustysterling@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 25, 2011 11:33:27 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

  
I made a conscious decision at the beginning of this year to focus exclusively 
(except for client needs) on BW photography. Printing certainly has been an 
issue, although the Epson R2880 with ABW has helped a lot in that regard.

So now I have read all of the Paul Roark articles on his site and Clayton Jones 
articles. I not only feel intimidated by the technology but thoroughly confused 
by some of the procedures.

Obviously some of this stuff was written a few years ago and there have been 
some changes. When I read some of the articles and look at the screens on my Mac 
some things just are not there as described. So I try and extrapolate what I can 
and try and find something equivalent -- not always successfully.

Meantime, I'm using my old R200 to print BO until my MIS inksets arrive. I get 
some banding that I'm not happy with but you have to look very closely to see 
it. In general, though, thanks to some settings outlined by Jones, I'm seeing 
better results both on the R200 and 2880.

Nonetheless, I feel a lot of confusion, have a lot of questions, and experience 
some frustration trying to soak it all in for this process.

But it is important to me to get back to my BW roots. The difference is that I 
worked in a darkroom then and digital is such a different animal. 


Just venting a bit. ;^)





      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Talk about intimidating

2011-02-26 by Tom Fielder

Rusty -

I went through the "confused" stage and finally realized that the carbon
approach is not rocket science (although given the state of NASA's budget
the past 20 years, rocket science certainly is not cutting technology).  

As to Paul Roark's material, I have found it to be an extraordinary
repository of material.  Paul's resourceful PDFs all have dates which allow
one to follow the incremental development of carbon approaches through time.
If you find yourself interested in a "recent" approach, simply do a search
on this site (Yahoo) to gain an understanding of his current thinking.
Meanwhile, you are doing the right thing.  Install the MIS you have on the
way and jump in.   Turn to this group as you run into questions. 

Having said all that, the carbon approach requires a "tinkering" mind.  Inks
need to be fresh and need to be "used."  Carts (or machines) require shaking
from time-to-time to avoid clogging.  Over time you'll see all that
discussed on this site.  I don't know if you are starting with a set of
"loaded" carts or you bought the bottles of ink; however, you will want to
quickly move to bulk ink.  Finally, get a box of rubber gloves :).

Last, while you will achieve incredible B & W images with the carbon
approach, there's certainly nothing wrong with K3 inks and ABW direct from
Epson.  Using that inkset and Epson's paper is a very simple approach and
will yield great prints.  

Last, (I don't get a commission for this), Paul Roark sells his prints very
inexpensively.  I'd recommend buying a print to hang by your desk as an
example of the incredible result available from the "tinkering" carbon
approach.

Best -  Tom

Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

2011-02-26 by mrjimbo

Phillip,
I read your post twice.. Words of wisdom for sure.. To many want instant gratification without really learning and understanding the process.. 

j
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Phillip Kimble 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 10:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating


    


  Rusty,

  First & foremost, welcome to the "dark side". Er, I mean the "carbon" side of 
  life. The processes and technology can be a bit overwhelming. It is no different 
  than spending hours trying to perfect the spooling of film onto the wire spool 
  or perfecting contact printing. No different than trying to understand why teh 
  print has a slight yellow tinit.

  As in any trade, to learn requires pateince and time. To become expert requires 
  learning. To become a master requires vision. We are or have all gone through 
  the same learning curve. The trick is to print, observe, understand, and try 
  again. Quite simple if you ask most but rather difficult to become much more 
  than a novice at the skill. To seek is to understand and to understand is to 
  have patience. Nothing is for free and everything that is for free is not 
  worthwhile. Ask and we shall try to help. We ask that you simply try.

   

  ________________________________
  From: Rusty Sterling <rustysterling@...>
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Fri, February 25, 2011 11:33:27 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

    
  I made a conscious decision at the beginning of this year to focus exclusively 
  (except for client needs) on BW photography. Printing certainly has been an 
  issue, although the Epson R2880 with ABW has helped a lot in that regard.

  So now I have read all of the Paul Roark articles on his site and Clayton Jones 
  articles. I not only feel intimidated by the technology but thoroughly confused 
  by some of the procedures.

  Obviously some of this stuff was written a few years ago and there have been 
  some changes. When I read some of the articles and look at the screens on my Mac 
  some things just are not there as described. So I try and extrapolate what I can 
  and try and find something equivalent -- not always successfully.

  Meantime, I'm using my old R200 to print BO until my MIS inksets arrive. I get 
  some banding that I'm not happy with but you have to look very closely to see 
  it. In general, though, thanks to some settings outlined by Jones, I'm seeing 
  better results both on the R200 and 2880.

  Nonetheless, I feel a lot of confusion, have a lot of questions, and experience 
  some frustration trying to soak it all in for this process.

  But it is important to me to get back to my BW roots. The difference is that I 
  worked in a darkroom then and digital is such a different animal. 

  Just venting a bit. ;^)

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

2011-02-26 by Rusty Sterling

Thanks to all for their words of encouragement and advice. I'll keep all of it in mind as I continue to explore this new path to B&W printing.

Rusty

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mrjimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Phillip,
> I read your post twice.. Words of wisdom for sure.. To many want instant gratification without really learning and understanding the process.. 
> 
> j 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Phillip Kimble 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 10:30 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating
> 
> 
>     
> 
> 
>   Rusty,
> 
>   First & foremost, welcome to the "dark side". Er, I mean the "carbon" side of 
>   life. The processes and technology can be a bit overwhelming. It is no different 
>   than spending hours trying to perfect the spooling of film onto the wire spool 
>   or perfecting contact printing. No different than trying to understand why teh 
>   print has a slight yellow tinit.
> 
>   As in any trade, to learn requires pateince and time. To become expert requires 
>   learning. To become a master requires vision. We are or have all gone through 
>   the same learning curve. The trick is to print, observe, understand, and try 
>   again. Quite simple if you ask most but rather difficult to become much more 
>   than a novice at the skill. To seek is to understand and to understand is to 
>   have patience. Nothing is for free and everything that is for free is not 
>   worthwhile. Ask and we shall try to help. We ask that you simply try.
> 
>    
> 
>   ________________________________
>   From: Rusty Sterling <rustysterling@...>
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Fri, February 25, 2011 11:33:27 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating
> 
>     
>   I made a conscious decision at the beginning of this year to focus exclusively 
>   (except for client needs) on BW photography. Printing certainly has been an 
>   issue, although the Epson R2880 with ABW has helped a lot in that regard.
> 
>   So now I have read all of the Paul Roark articles on his site and Clayton Jones 
>   articles. I not only feel intimidated by the technology but thoroughly confused 
>   by some of the procedures.
> 
>   Obviously some of this stuff was written a few years ago and there have been 
>   some changes. When I read some of the articles and look at the screens on my Mac 
>   some things just are not there as described. So I try and extrapolate what I can 
>   and try and find something equivalent -- not always successfully.
> 
>   Meantime, I'm using my old R200 to print BO until my MIS inksets arrive. I get 
>   some banding that I'm not happy with but you have to look very closely to see 
>   it. In general, though, thanks to some settings outlined by Jones, I'm seeing 
>   better results both on the R200 and 2880.
> 
>   Nonetheless, I feel a lot of confusion, have a lot of questions, and experience 
>   some frustration trying to soak it all in for this process.
> 
>   But it is important to me to get back to my BW roots. The difference is that I 
>   worked in a darkroom then and digital is such a different animal. 
> 
>   Just venting a bit. ;^)
> 
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Talk about intimidating

2011-02-27 by hp9180profile

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Rusty Sterling" <rustysterling@...> wrote:
> 
> Just venting a bit. ;^)
>

You can only really get on top of it by actually doing it. Grab two or three sets of refillable carts, enough material to make lots of base mix, a big bottle of eboni, QTR, a spectro, 5 or six different papers, read Pauls excellent pdf's and just start practicing.

Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

2011-02-27 by Phillip Kimble

J,

I would say digital carbon printing is a very simple "point-and-print" 
process. Though I have been using the MIS/1400 for more than a year I am always 
re-reading and re-thinking the process. Not because it is complex or 
complicated, its because there are so many ways to create the artisic image. As 
one person may view a print as acceptable, the printer/photographer may remain 
frustrated. Once the printer understands all of the variables going into a print 
will they become comfortable and frustration departs as artistic abilities 
improve. 


Sure you can do point-and-print but the images will the result will reflect the 
thought and effort that went into it. I think most noobs should focus on 
printing using just black only (1-ink) to learn the process and then add the 
other inks/tones as skills improve. Afterall, the basis of the print is carbon 
balck. Other inks are used to develop tonality. Very much like handing someone a 
guitar instead of a didley bow and expecting them to start playing chords and 
triads. However, to become an artist is a trip into the senses and soul.When the 
process of printing with 6 inks is new, everything is a little confussing. Layer 
this with calibration & profiling processes and frustration takes over.

In fact, to increase my level of understanding of the carbon printing process I 
have actually returned to the trational darkroom and instantly realized my first 
mistake. Digtial carbon printing is not silver halide printing. You can acheive 
B&W prints with MIS/1400 but the use of tones will either distract or add to the 
final print. If you understand what you are trying to acheive, then you can 
manage the process. If you are new, it may not be obvious why the prints are 
brown instead of black & white.

 



________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, February 26, 2011 7:21:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

  
Phillip,
I read your post twice.. Words of wisdom for sure.. To many want instant 
gratification without really learning and understanding the process.. 


j 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Phillip Kimble 
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

Rusty,

First & foremost, welcome to the "dark side". Er, I mean the "carbon" side of 
life. The processes and technology can be a bit overwhelming. It is no different 

than spending hours trying to perfect the spooling of film onto the wire spool 
or perfecting contact printing. No different than trying to understand why teh 
print has a slight yellow tinit.

As in any trade, to learn requires pateince and time. To become expert requires 
learning. To become a master requires vision. We are or have all gone through 
the same learning curve. The trick is to print, observe, understand, and try 
again. Quite simple if you ask most but rather difficult to become much more 
than a novice at the skill. To seek is to understand and to understand is to 
have patience. Nothing is for free and everything that is for free is not 
worthwhile. Ask and we shall try to help. We ask that you simply try.

________________________________
From: Rusty Sterling <rustysterling@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
Sent: Fri, February 25, 2011 11:33:27 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Talk about intimidating

I made a conscious decision at the beginning of this year to focus exclusively 
(except for client needs) on BW photography. Printing certainly has been an 
issue, although the Epson R2880 with ABW has helped a lot in that regard.

So now I have read all of the Paul Roark articles on his site and Clayton Jones 
articles. I not only feel intimidated by the technology but thoroughly confused 
by some of the procedures.

Obviously some of this stuff was written a few years ago and there have been 
some changes. When I read some of the articles and look at the screens on my Mac 

some things just are not there as described. So I try and extrapolate what I can 

and try and find something equivalent -- not always successfully.

Meantime, I'm using my old R200 to print BO until my MIS inksets arrive. I get 
some banding that I'm not happy with but you have to look very closely to see 
it. In general, though, thanks to some settings outlined by Jones, I'm seeing 
better results both on the R200 and 2880.

Nonetheless, I feel a lot of confusion, have a lot of questions, and experience 
some frustration trying to soak it all in for this process.

But it is important to me to get back to my BW roots. The difference is that I 
worked in a darkroom then and digital is such a different animal. 

Just venting a bit. ;^)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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