Digital BW, The Print

Has anyone any experience of BenVista PhotoZoom 4 ?

I downloaded the trial version yeterday and started to test it out.

The Help menu says the following:-

"When resizing an image for printing purposes, it is of great importance to make sure that the print size you specify in PhotoZoom Pro 4 corresponds with your printer settings. For example, When you specify a print size of 11 by 8 inch at 300 DPI in PhotoZoom Pro 4, but set your printer to print at 11 by 8 inch at 2400 DPI, this will most probably cause a lot of quality loss".

I asked BenVista to explain this and this was their answer.

"For optimum quality, it is best to set the resolution to 1440 DPI in PhotoZoom Pro 4 if you print at 1440 DPI.

However, please note that we are planning to revise the quoted passage of the help file. The quality differences are actually very marginal, when you print a 300 DPI (rather than a 1440 DPI) image at 1440 DPI. The differences are however *much* greater when you print a 72 DPI (rather than a 300 DPI) image at 300 DPI.

We are going to revise the mentioned numbers, so the example in the help file will make more sense. Our apologies for the caused confusion!"

If I set the resolution to 1440 in PhotoZoom I get a massive 1Gb file.
You wouldn't need to set the resolution beyond 360 dpi for printing, surely, to obtain a good print.

Can someone else explain this as I feel I must be missing something.

Incidentally I use QTR and Epson 1290 for printing and set the resolution to 1440 super.

Mel

"Mel" <chilterns@...> wrote:
>
> ...
> "When resizing an image for printing purposes, it is of great importance to make sure that the print size you specify in PhotoZoom Pro 4 corresponds with your printer settings.

I agree, though I think some printer drivers do a fairly good job of resizing for smaller amounts.   

Different printers will have different native resolutions.  I believe modern Epsons use 720, at least for the desktop.  

The older wide format used 360, which is all I can imagine a large print needs.  

On the other hand, the high-gloss Epson-Noritsu B&W dyes (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/BW-Dye.pdf ) on Red River Metallic paper seem to benefit from the full 720.  (I'm finding cards made this way result in an excellent first proofing medium.  It's very different from a large format contact print, but the sensation of high resolution and detail is there.  The positive feedback from these cards is having a very positive impact on my B&W productivity.  I would encourage Epson to get a K3 Claria printer out there soon.)


> I asked BenVista to explain this and this was their answer.
> 
> "For optimum quality, it is best to set the resolution to 1440 DPI in PhotoZoom Pro 4 if you print at 1440 DPI.


It sounds like then may have looked at the wrong resolution figures.  My understanding is that the resolution of the print head and stepper are not the same as what the driver can utilize in calculating the dithering pattern.  The print head, in laying down the ink to render the image, uses much higher dpi's than we need in our file sizes.

 
...
> Incidentally I use QTR and Epson 1290 for printing and set the resolution to 1440 super.


On my modern printers I crank it up to 2880 Uni-directional, but a 720 pixel per inch input file is all the software is going to use, as I understand it.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On 05/20/2011 06:56 PM, Mel wrote:
> Has anyone any experience of BenVista PhotoZoom 4 ?
>
> I downloaded the trial version yeterday and started to test it out.
>
> The Help menu says the following:-
>
> "When resizing an image for printing purposes, it is of great importance to make sure that the print size you specify in PhotoZoom Pro 4 corresponds with your printer settings. For example, When you specify a print size of 11 by 8 inch at 300 DPI in PhotoZoom Pro 4, but set your printer to print at 11 by 8 inch at 2400 DPI, this will most probably cause a lot of quality loss".
>
> I asked BenVista to explain this and this was their answer.
>
> "For optimum quality, it is best to set the resolution to 1440 DPI in PhotoZoom Pro 4 if you print at 1440 DPI.
>
> However, please note that we are planning to revise the quoted passage of the help file. The quality differences are actually very marginal, when you print a 300 DPI (rather than a 1440 DPI) image at 1440 DPI. The differences are however *much* greater when you print a 72 DPI (rather than a 300 DPI) image at 300 DPI.
>
> We are going to revise the mentioned numbers, so the example in the help file will make more sense. Our apologies for the caused confusion!"
>
> If I set the resolution to 1440 in PhotoZoom I get a massive 1Gb file.
> You wouldn't need to set the resolution beyond 360 dpi for printing, surely, to obtain a good print.
>
> Can someone else explain this as I feel I must be missing something.
>
> Incidentally I use QTR and Epson 1290 for printing and set the resolution to 1440 super.
>
> Mel

The right approach is to get the printer driver's feedback on what it 
finds optimal in PPI as the image input resolution for the print 
settings used (print resolution in DPI, weaving strokes, uni- or 
bidirectional etc.). Some drivers show that input resolution number in 
PPI (native printer resolution) (HP Z models do), some applications like 
Qimage gather that information from an API call the driver makes and 
show it to the user + do the extrapolation and sharpening automatically 
and intelligent to that input resolution. In practice that number is 360 
or 720 PPI for Epsons and 300 or 600 PPI for HPs and Canons. There are 
some higher numbers possible with some printer settings but their use is 
more for text and vector designs to be printed.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

On 05/20/2011 08:48 PM, Paul wrote:

>  It's very
> different from a large format contact print, but the sensation of
> high resolution and detail is there.  The positive feedback from
> these cards is having a very positive impact on my B&W productivity.

Quite a relief to read this.
So there is no true substitute in web images for getting the same 
attention.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Thanks Ernst, you have confirmed what the consensus seems to be that Epson printers like 720 ppi.

Do you think it would make any difference to the print quality if I sent the image to the printer at 360 ppi as I haven't yet checked this out ?

Mel

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> On 05/20/2011 06:56 PM, Mel wrote:
> > Has anyone any experience of BenVista PhotoZoom 4 ?
> >
> > I downloaded the trial version yeterday and started to test it out.
> >
> > The Help menu says the following:-
> >
> > "When resizing an image for printing purposes, it is of great importance to make sure that the print size you specify in PhotoZoom Pro 4 corresponds with your printer settings. For example, When you specify a print size of 11 by 8 inch at 300 DPI in PhotoZoom Pro 4, but set your printer to print at 11 by 8 inch at 2400 DPI, this will most probably cause a lot of quality loss".
> >
> > I asked BenVista to explain this and this was their answer.
> >
> > "For optimum quality, it is best to set the resolution to 1440 DPI in PhotoZoom Pro 4 if you print at 1440 DPI.
> >
> > However, please note that we are planning to revise the quoted passage of the help file. The quality differences are actually very marginal, when you print a 300 DPI (rather than a 1440 DPI) image at 1440 DPI. The differences are however *much* greater when you print a 72 DPI (rather than a 300 DPI) image at 300 DPI.
> >
> > We are going to revise the mentioned numbers, so the example in the help file will make more sense. Our apologies for the caused confusion!"
> >
> > If I set the resolution to 1440 in PhotoZoom I get a massive 1Gb file.
> > You wouldn't need to set the resolution beyond 360 dpi for printing, surely, to obtain a good print.
> >
> > Can someone else explain this as I feel I must be missing something.
> >
> > Incidentally I use QTR and Epson 1290 for printing and set the resolution to 1440 super.
> >
> > Mel
> 
> The right approach is to get the printer driver's feedback on what it 
> finds optimal in PPI as the image input resolution for the print 
> settings used (print resolution in DPI, weaving strokes, uni- or 
> bidirectional etc.). Some drivers show that input resolution number in 
> PPI (native printer resolution) (HP Z models do), some applications like 
> Qimage gather that information from an API call the driver makes and 
> show it to the user + do the extrapolation and sharpening automatically 
> and intelligent to that input resolution. In practice that number is 360 
> or 720 PPI for Epsons and 300 or 600 PPI for HPs and Canons. There are 
> some higher numbers possible with some printer settings but their use is 
> more for text and vector designs to be printed.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

On 05/25/2011 11:45 PM, Mel wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Ernst, you have confirmed what the consensus seems to be that Epson printers like 720 ppi.
>
> Do you think it would make any difference to the print quality if I sent the image to the printer at 360 ppi as I haven't yet checked this out ?
>
> Mel

The 360 or 720 PPI input/native resolution of the printer does not 
describe the actual optical resolution of the print. It is just the data 
resolution it likes to work with for different quality settings. The 
real optical resolution could be any odd number in LPI or better MTF, if 
someone ever measured the last. Paper, ink, printer quality delivers 
that optical quality given optimal data to start from. Creating optimal 
data is a first step.

In time resampling routines improved in most drivers and so did the 
resampling algorithms in applications. The last can still be better than 
the drivers are but not always. Think about downsampling with and 
without anti-aliasing on for example grainy scans of B&W negatives, 
sometimes the smaller print has the same rough (aliased) grain the big 
one has. Some applications do the extrapolation in an intelligent, 
automatic step on the fly at print time, including print sharpening etc. 
Qimage and Lightroom for example. I hardly ever check what the remaining 
resolution is of a scaled print in Qimage as I know it will upsample the 
resolution to what the printer asks in a good way. In extreme cases I 
lower the print sharpening so upsampling artefacts are not getting 
exaggerated by sharpening. If the data is not sufficient for the size 
something has to be sacrificed, I rather have blurred detail at one foot 
viewing distance than sharp upsampling artefacts in a print several feet 
wide.

So not a straight answer, you have to test what differences in image 
quality you get with different approaches and the printer/media you use.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

So what you are saying Ernst is the printer sets the dpi to its native resolution (720 dpi in the case of Epson 2100) irrespective of the resolution it is presented with, say, 300dpi for instance.
 
So would 360 dpi also be "optimal" being an exact divisor of 720 dpi ?

I wonder if that's the case with RIPs like QTR which I understand bypasses the printer driver ?
 
Mel
 

--- On Fri, 27/5/11, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@onsneteindhoven.nl> wrote:

From: Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] BenVista PhotoZoom Pro 4
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 27 May, 2011, 8:50


  



On 05/25/2011 11:45 PM, Mel wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Ernst, you have confirmed what the consensus seems to be that Epson printers like 720 ppi.
>
> Do you think it would make any difference to the print quality if I sent the image to the printer at 360 ppi as I haven't yet checked this out ?
>
> Mel

The 360 or 720 PPI input/native resolution of the printer does not 
describe the actual optical resolution of the print. It is just the data 
resolution it likes to work with for different quality settings. The 
real optical resolution could be any odd number in LPI or better MTF, if 
someone ever measured the last. Paper, ink, printer quality delivers 
that optical quality given optimal data to start from. Creating optimal 
data is a first step.

In time resampling routines improved in most drivers and so did the 
resampling algorithms in applications. The last can still be better than 
the drivers are but not always. Think about downsampling with and 
without anti-aliasing on for example grainy scans of B&W negatives, 
sometimes the smaller print has the same rough (aliased) grain the big 
one has. Some applications do the extrapolation in an intelligent, 
automatic step on the fly at print time, including print sharpening etc. 
Qimage and Lightroom for example. I hardly ever check what the remaining 
resolution is of a scaled print in Qimage as I know it will upsample the 
resolution to what the printer asks in a good way. In extreme cases I 
lower the print sharpening so upsampling artefacts are not getting 
exaggerated by sharpening. If the data is not sufficient for the size 
something has to be sacrificed, I rather have blurred detail at one foot 
viewing distance than sharp upsampling artefacts in a print several feet 
wide.

So not a straight answer, you have to test what differences in image 
quality you get with different approaches and the printer/media you use.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

| Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
| www.pigment-print.com |
| ( unvollendet ) |







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]