Digital BW, The Print

Just a heads up:

If you have some sample prints in batch h1, good news, the 60 Megalux-hours results are in, right on schedule. Mark continues his good work for us - and that's good news, too.

Thought I'd better include a link to Aardenburg for those not familiar with it: http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

>
> Just a heads up:
> 
> If you have some sample prints in batch h1, good news, the 60 Megalux-hours results are in, right on schedule. Mark continues his good work for us - and that's good news, too.
>

Did I make a mistake here:

I compared all dye inks measured so far at Aardenburg at 100 Megalux 
hours and the HP OEM 57-58-59 dye is better than the Claria and the Fuji 
(Claria's origin most likely) and we can probably add the Noritsu clone 
there as well.

Checked on black ink only gives the same score.
RC papers only for all ink types makes no difference in ranking.
Swellable coated Ilford Galerie Classic Pearl seems compatible enough. 
That paper is discontinued as I understand it like the HP printer the 
samples were made with.

The HP OEM 57-58-59 is a dye ink set that already had some of Vivera dye 
qualities as I understand it. There are no tests for the Vivera dyes 
like used in the Designjet 130 which is a pity.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

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Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

> ... the HP OEM 57-58-59 dye is better than the Claria ...

It's looks like you're right.  Very interesting.  Is the ink available in bulk or large format carts?


> ...  There are no tests for the Vivera dyes ...

For some uses, dyes are very interesting alternatives.  We should keep an eye on this technology.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Ernst,

At http://www.wilhelm-research.com/byte/Byte.com_Article_2004_07_26.pdf the author mentions that the prints from the Designjet 130nr, which uses Vivera dyes, are rated at 73 years, the same as the Hp 7960's prints.  The B&W from the 7960 were rated at 115 (Wilhelm) years.  

So, as you indicated, it's likely the HP Vivera dyes use the same technology as the 7960 (HP 57, 58, 59) that did so well in the Aardenburg-Imaging tests.  The Vivera dyes are available in large carts.  I love competition (and continue to be impressed with HP technology).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Looking at the Wilhelm test of Claria in the 260 and Vivera dye in the 8450, the Vivera, under glass, typically is rated 108 years HP's better glossy papers v. Claria 98 years.  The Vivera color benefits from UV protection, whereas the Claria does not due to differential fade issues (one color benefited too much relative to another color).  This suggests to me that light differences could result is significant test differences.  HP, as with their pigments, appears to have done a very good job of matching fade rates of the various colors to avoid color shifts.


The HP did poorly with no glass (there are no equivalent Claria numbers).  This is consistent with Mark's feelings that the main benefit from the sprays may be the coating, regardless of whether it absorbs UV.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On 06/02/2011 06:40 PM, Paul wrote:
>
> Looking at the Wilhelm test of Claria in the 260 and Vivera dye in
> the 8450, the Vivera, under glass, typically is rated 108 years HP's
> better glossy papers v. Claria 98 years.  The Vivera color benefits
> from UV protection, whereas the Claria does not due to differential
> fade issues (one color benefited too much relative to another color).
> This suggests to me that light differences could result is
> significant test differences.  HP, as with their pigments, appears to
> have done a very good job of matching fade rates of the various
> colors to avoid color shifts.
>
>
> The HP did poorly with no glass (there are no equivalent Claria
> numbers).  This is consistent with Mark's feelings that the main
> benefit from the sprays may be the coating, regardless of whether it
> absorbs UV.
>
> Paul www.PaulRoark.com

Right.

There is something I did not mention: the Vivera dye as tested by 
Wilhelm shows that its water resistance is not good. There are HP 
documents that mention HP water tests for the dye and they state it is 
good. I could not get a clear picture whether HP improved the Vivera dye 
on that aspect after Wilhelm's testing.

The Vivera dye is used in several models but HP is a bit vague sometimes 
on which models.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
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On 06/02/2011 06:17 PM, Paul wrote:
> Ernst,
>
> At
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/byte/Byte.com_Article_2004_07_26.pdf
> the author mentions that the prints from the Designjet 130nr, which
> uses Vivera dyes, are rated at 73 years, the same as the Hp 7960's
> prints.  The B&W from the 7960 were rated at 115 (Wilhelm) years.
>
> So, as you indicated, it's likely the HP Vivera dyes use the same
> technology as the 7960 (HP 57, 58, 59) that did so well in the
> Aardenburg-Imaging tests.  The Vivera dyes are available in large
> carts.  I love competition (and continue to be impressed with HP
> technology).
>
> Paul www.PaulRoark.com

Mark mentions that the 7960 was retrofitted by HP with Vivera magenta to 
improve the print fade resistance. Does not happen often that a 
manufacturer goes that route.

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/mmgnotes.html
25% from the bottom

BTW the minilab message I send you could be wrong, I see yet another 
document that says the ML1000D minilab has Vivera pigment so I am back 
where I was before. Largest Vivera dye carts are then the Designjet 130 
ones if none of the bigger Designjets uses it, HP can be vague.




-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

I have a Designjet 130, and so if any tests are needed, I'd be happy to take
part.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

> Mark mentions that the 7960 was retrofitted by HP with Vivera magenta to 
> improve the print fade resistance. Does not happen often that a 
> manufacturer goes that route.


Yes, if you filter the AaI&A database on [printer][contains]"7960" you will see two sets of Hp ink on a few different papers.  One set is marked 57, 58, and 59, while the other is 57+, 58, and 59. The 57+ ink cartridge is the new improved magenta ink. I believe that with this "new improved" cartridge installed in the old 7960 printer, it did indeed form the basis for the Vivera dye set, if not exactly the actual set itself.  And you pay a premium for that cartridge as the older 57 cartridge is also still available. The improved 57+ magenta fixed a catalytic fade problem that occurred mainly when the magenta ink mixed with cyan ink to form blue and purple colors.  HP knew this preferential fading problem existed ( I did, too, at the time because of my early work on the I* metric testing).  It was admirable for HP to retrofit this older printer series with an improved ink at a time when the industry-sponsored lightfastness tests only evaluated "pure" cyan, magenta, yellow, and grays at low and medium density aimpoints (as is still the case today). The legacy test methods do not spot more complex problems occurring in color blends. I've been very pleased that the AaI&A 30 patch standard color set (comprised mostly of the Macbeth ColorChecker colors)  does screen for these more subtle issues exceptionally well, but even I could make a case that greater patch counts in test could perhaps be considered.  It's not a limitation of the I* analysis.  In fact, the I* metric thrives on larger patterns of data, but color patch count has practical limitations for test unit real estate and overall costs of testing. 

Another issue to consider is that the longevity claims for HP Vivera dyes have largely been derived for swellable polymer type inkjet papers.  For example, other than the "HP Advanced" paper which is an "instant dry" paper, the various papers in test at AaI&A in conjunction with HP dyes are all with swellable type papers because this was and still is the best performing lightfastness combination for Vivera dyes.  It is easy to see that that the HP dyes are significantly more lightfast on the swellable papers, and it is the light fastness figures on these swellable papers that HP has typically quoted for its Vivera Dyes.  My guess is that all of this discussion applies to the tabletop Designjet series of printers as well, but as Ernst has alread said, it is indeed a pity we don't have some Designjet 30 color samples in test in order to know for sure. 

Recall that light fade and gas fade resistance was the reason manufacturers introduced swellable inkjet papers, but it was a deal with the devil because water resistance and humidity fastness goes down and drying time plus perpetual "tackiness" at moderate and high humidity levels (causing "ferrotyping" when in contact with other materials) goes way up. The consumer marketplace has ultimately spoken, and it has rejected swellable papers.  HP is quietly phasing its swellable papers while at least in some cases still retaining the product name.  For example,  HP Premium Plus photo paper Glossy is now a microporous paper when it started out as a swellable paper.  The typical consumer may not even notice, but photo historians, conservators, and curators are likely to be very frustrated with all this naming convention befuddlement which is so prevalent with the inkjet media today.  I understand that Ilford has also discontinued the Gallerie Classic line which was swellable polymer.  I know of no other sources now for swellable type inkjet papers.  I hope to have a small news post on the Aardenburg Imaging website about this very soon.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
>
> I have a Designjet 130, and so if any tests are needed, I'd be happy to take
> part.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Despite a hefty backlog of samples I'm working hard to get into testing combined with a sad lack of fund to do the work, I believe the Designjet 130 is historically important, and it should be represented directly in the AaI&A database.  Peter, please contact me off list and together we can pick out which media would be best to test. I still have some HP swellable paper stock (HP soft gloss, satin, Ilford Classic Pearl, etc) in stock if you don't.  Anyone else have a suggestion on appropriate media to test with the Designjet 130?  Speak now, or ...

thanks,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

I think the most interesting comparison would be the HP dye ink on some non-swellable paper stock that was used for Claria tests.  The swellable papers are not of much interest, as the market has indicated.    The more direct the comparison with Claria, the better.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> I think the most interesting comparison would be the HP dye ink on some non-swellable paper stock that was used for Claria tests.  The swellable papers are not of much interest, as the market has indicated.    The more direct the comparison with Claria, the better.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Sort on [paper/media][contains]"advanced" to pull up both Claria ink on HP Advanced paper as well as the 57+,58,59 HP dye set, as well as the HP8750 (which is a unique "Vivera" dye set including more photo gray plus a violet/blue dye).  While I can't say for certain or not whether HP added specific chemistry to it's Hp Advanced paper tailored to help the Vivera dyes specifically, I can say that the Advanced paper is a microporous type paper, and that it is marketed by HP as a "universal" inkjet paper. In other words HP is happy to promote and sell it for use with Canon, Epson, and other inkjet printers as well.

I should point out here that the AaI&A Conservation display ratings for dye based systems should be taken under advisement as the lawyers say.  Due to continuing dye migration in dye-based inkjet prints it's often hard to define the "true" reference values at the start of test. Neither I nor my professional colleagues have a really great "incubation" protocol to deal with this continuing dye migration issue, so it naturally makes testing dye base inkjet prints a little noisier.  Because the Conservation display rating is a very stringent standard for early changes and well suited to pigmented ink/fine art applications, and because the typical consumer is unlikely to even be aware of any short term color settling effects that have nothing to do with light fading or gas fading, a better understanding of these systems is best gained by also paying attention to the more advanced levels of fade which are clearly light induced.  Thus, looking at the I* color and tonal accuracy score at 100 megalux hours in test, for example, will be very instructive. 

What is obvious in the AaI&A tests is how well HP has engineered the "balanced" fading characteristic into both its Vivera dye and Pigment sets.  This is especially important to the consumer market because down the road, prints that retain better balance in color and tone, even though less saturated in color and lower in contrast, will lead to much more successful copying/restoration efforts when needed.
 
I realize on this forum many of you will be most interested in the photo grays and PK performance, so by all means take a look at the neutral patch response in these samples even though the driver may be using more color dyes than would be absolutely necessary to make a nice monochrome system.   Nonetheless, as most people on this forum are well aware, some additional colorants usually get mixed right into the photo gray and black dyes themselves. If those colorants are also fade-balanced then the monochrome print is likely not to hue shift over time even though it may lighten and lose some contrast.

kind regards,
Mark

"Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
>
>

> Sort on [paper/media][contains]"advanced" to pull up both Claria ink on HP Advanced paper as well as the 57+,58,59 HP dye set, ...

> I can't say for certain or not whether HP added specific chemistry to it's Hp Advanced paper tailored to help the Vivera dyes specifically, ...
> 
> What is obvious in the AaI&A tests is how well HP has engineered the "balanced" fading characteristic into both its Vivera dye and Pigment sets. 

> ... take a look at the neutral patch response in these samples  ...


I think that the comparisons of the neutral gray patches does not tell us much about how the Claria black only inks would compare to the HP dyes.  The HP uses a gray ink, the Epson Claria printer does not.  However, the HP on this microporous paper still did better at 40 MLux hours than the Claria Black Only did on Epson Premium Photo Paper Glossy.  At the 50% patch the Claria delta-e is 5.9, whereas the HP delta-e is 3.6.

It's too bad the HP dmax is so much weaker.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Mark:
With dyes and swellable polymer papers, humidity conditions can vary the results significantly. When I was running my initial tests with Wilhelm using Ilford dyes 11 years ago, it became apparent that dye migration seems to happen at 50% and greater humidity conditions, which leads to premature magenta failure. (at least with the Ilford dyes we were testing) 

Also, in testing with gelatin ink receptor papers (Extreem Gamut high gloss), low humidity conditions when printing, slowed the absorption of the dye inks, allowing them to pool and intermingle more. Our theory was that high humidity when printing allowed the dyes to be absorbed better by the gelatin. 

In any event, the lower the humidity for storage or display, the longer the life of dye prints. 

In informal south window testing using 4 dilutions of Ilford black in B&W printing, Allen Maertz said the resulting prints on swellable polymer papers were "nearly indestructible" when it came to visible fading.

This also seems to corralate to Wilhlems early findings that "pure color" printed dye patches had extremely high fade resistance compared to dye patches printed with intermingled colors. (especially magenta and cyan, Ilford dye inks)

Dyes, are a more complicated model to test, compared to pigments. Especially when we consider the Epson 1280 fiasco, which enlightened all of us to the nature of atmospheric pollution as a source of premature dye failure.

John Nollendorfs

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@> wrote:
> >
> > I have a Designjet 130, and so if any tests are needed, I'd be happy to take
> > part.
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> Despite a hefty backlog of samples I'm working hard to get into testing combined with a sad lack of fund to do the work, I believe the Designjet 130 is historically important, and it should be represented directly in the AaI&A database.  Peter, please contact me off list and together we can pick out which media would be best to test. I still have some HP swellable paper stock (HP soft gloss, satin, Ilford Classic Pearl, etc) in stock if you don't.  Anyone else have a suggestion on appropriate media to test with the Designjet 130?  Speak now, or ...
> 
> thanks,
> Mark
> http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jrnolly@...> wrote:
>
> Mark:
> With dyes and swellable polymer papers, humidity conditions can vary the results significantly. When I was running my initial tests with Wilhelm using Ilford dyes 11 years ago, it became apparent that dye migration seems to happen at 50% and greater humidity conditions, which leads to premature magenta failure. (at least with the Ilford dyes we were testing) 


Hi John, yes I'm intimately familiar with the dye migration issue.  I'm the primary author of two key published papers related to the subject of humidity induced dye migration in inkjet media. Dye migration is not just an issue for swellable polymers.  It's an even more complex problem with microporous media as well, and specific mordanting additives tailored to a specific dye set are one way the OEMs can reduce it for their dye/paper combinations, but of course it not a perfect fix and besides, many people use "universally compatible" papers, so the problem persists with any dye-based printers.  You can find both of the papers I wrote on the WIR website at these respective links.

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/isj/WIR_JapanHardcopy2005MMG_HW.pdf

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/is_t/WIR_ISTpaper_2003_09_MMG_HW.pdf

Maybe not bed time reading, but these two papers cover a lot of interesting ground and will give folks an idea why the compounded issues of dye migration (which tend to cause loss of print sharpness, hue shifts, plus color saturation and density increases) versus light fading/gas fading (which usually go in the opposite direction with saturation and density losses) complicate getting a "clean" unconfounded test for fading characteristics of dye based inket systems.  Nonetheless, we do the best we can do to "settle" the short term migration before starting our fading tests. You can accelerate the migration which slows exponentially as it continues by pre treating at high humidity levels, but it's not a sure bet that the enlarged dot structure and ink mixing which then takes place is guaranteed to occur under more "average" end-user storage and display conditions. Bottom line:  this is another reason why pigments have so far won out in professional proofing and fine art applications where short term color and tonal drift cannot be tolerated to the extent that the average amateur will tolerate it in dye-based inkjet systems.

cheers,
Mark

I was once told that some of the "dye" inksets actually use a hybrid black that contains very finely ground carbon as well as a blend of dyes. The reason for this initially was to hold down bleed in text printing. The presence of carbon would explain some of the black "dye" ink stability we've seen in tests. 


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Yes Paul,
I believe HP did that early on! I don't know if it was to hold down the bleeding, or for more permanence in text printing. The early Media Street pigmented inks used a dye for the additional d-max it offered, that faded away before too long.

John Nollendorfs
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> I was once told that some of the "dye" inksets actually use a hybrid black that contains very finely ground carbon as well as a blend of dyes. The reason for this initially was to hold down bleed in text printing. The presence of carbon would explain some of the black "dye" ink stability we've seen in tests. 
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

On 06/03/2011 06:42 PM, Paul wrote:
> I was once told that some of the "dye" inksets actually use a hybrid
> black that contains very finely ground carbon as well as a blend of
> dyes. The reason for this initially was to hold down bleed in text
> printing. The presence of carbon would explain some of the black
> "dye" ink stability we've seen in tests.
>
>
> Paul www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

There are other methods too for reducing black bleed on matte papers, I
think the one headed version of the Canon iPF5100, the iPF510, has a two
component fixation of the matte black with the cyan ink to achieve that 
goal. Printing cyan under black text etc is an old graphic arts trick 
but having the two as reagents is new.

The Canon Pixma IX7000 uses a clear preparation ink to improve the 
surface of plain papers before the other inks are squirted. Some third 
party suppliers call their clear ink for that printer a gloss enhancer. 
Wonder how that works in practice :-)

Your observation that dilution of the HP Vivera pigment PK delivers 
better Dmax than the straight PK on gloss media could well be explained 
on the same grounds. The PK is used as the darkest grey ink in the HP 
quad mode for matte papers, if it had been optimised for gloss printing 
it most likely would have too much bleed on matte papers.

For HP printers it has been common to use a black pigment ink in 
printers that had dye for the colors. Even early Deskjet models had it. 
That thermal heads could not work with pigment inks was a myth right 
from the start.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

The Vivera "72" dye inkset for the HP DesignJet T1100 may be an interesting commercially available set for high gloss, non-archival printing -- an alternative to the Noritsu (Claria) inputs I have been using. (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/BW-Dye.pdf )

Significantly, this HP inkset uses a gray.  So, no mixing would be needed to use it.  And, the gray and PK are available in 130 ml carts.

See http://h10088.www1.hp.com/gap/Data/en/t_series_image_quality.pdf

The prices at Atlex are not bad for commercial ink -- 130 ml/$55.  

See  http://www.atlex.com/hp_designjet/t1100.htm 

I'm not sure which smaller printer uses the gray ink with smaller carts for testing.  The HP 59 may be the same.  It's $24 for 17 ml.  See http://www.atlex.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=C9359AN 


The commercially available gray opens this dye printing up to a lot more people than my user-mixed Noritsu gray/LK.  A single LK and PK in the 1400 (or any 1.5 pl printer) can make outstanding glossy prints.  

The bottom line question for me in this exploration of dyes is how to make the most striking B&W cards and brochures.  Right now the Noritsu dyes I'm using hold that position.  I don't consider this a "fine art" or "archival" inkset or medium -- just great looking output.  On the other hand, it would be nice to have cards, etc. that don't turn green or brown in a few months of display.

Frankly, I would think the major attraction of the HP set for most is that the gray is pre-mixed and commercially available. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

This is getting interesting.

I've been using an HP Photosmart Pro 8750 (essentially the larger-format successor to HP's Photosmart 7960) since its release, and have been impressed to the point of procuring a second 8750 as a spare. For me, its black-and-white output has been amazing (color printing quality is hardly a slouch, either). with few to none of the usual nagging artifacts (gloss differential, bronzing, serious metamerism) when used with HP's Premium/Premium Plus inks.  I'm probably going to prepare a set of prints for evaluation by Aardenburg before long to draw a firm bead on the archival qualities of this combination, the visual quality of which I'm solidly sold on.


- Barrett


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@> wrote:
> 
> > ... the HP OEM 57-58-59 dye is better than the Claria ...
> 
> It's looks like you're right.  Very interesting.  Is the ink available in bulk or large format carts?
> 
> 
> > ...  There are no tests for the Vivera dyes ...
> 
> For some uses, dyes are very interesting alternatives.  We should keep an eye on this technology.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

On 06/04/2011 02:33 AM, Paul wrote:
> The Vivera "72" dye inkset for the HP DesignJet T1100 may be an
> interesting commercially available set for high gloss, non-archival
> printing -- an alternative to the Noritsu (Claria) inputs I have been
> using. (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/BW-Dye.pdf )

To avoid mistakes the MK black is a pigment ink in that ink set, the 
rest is Vivera dye.

> The commercially available gray opens this dye printing up to a lot
> more people than my user-mixed Noritsu gray/LK.  A single LK and PK
> in the 1400 (or any 1.5 pl printer) can make outstanding glossy
> prints.

> Frankly, I would think the major attraction of the HP set for most is
> that the gray is pre-mixed and commercially available.

Paul,

The major attraction to me is that it allows the use of thermal heads as 
well and widens the usable printer categories that way. Bowhaus TBW will 
drive Canon pro models with custom B&W inks but I guess some editing on 
Paul Roark RGB curves for CMYK printers will work too. The Canon pro 
models have 4 picoliter droplets, no other picoliter sizes above or 
below. A3+ models are at 2 picoliter throughout.

For diluting the inks there are glop varieties that can be used in 
thermal heads, Image Specialist's WJ828 is what is used for the Z3100 
gloss enhancer third party inks, pigment base but I think it will not be 
a problem for the dyes. I have seen a cheaper alternative in Germany for 
a Canon gloss enhancer.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
>
> ...Bowhaus TBW will 
> drive Canon pro models with custom B&W inks..

unfortunately this will turn out to be a path few might take. The ink bufffers in the Canons make converting to alternative inks apparently impossible. There is work going on with installing special inks into a brand new Canon, so that the buffers will not already have OEM color ink in them, I have not heard how that is going. Assuming it goes well, it still will require interested users to find an unused printer that never had an initial OEM ink fill, and have the alternative inks be the actual init fill, with little chance of further experiments and changes.
Clearly a large bump in the potentially promising road, it would be in everyone's best interests to come about.
My apologies if this double posts, there was a server error at first attempt.
Tyler

On 06/04/2011 05:37 PM, tboleyyh wrote:

> unfortunately this will turn out to be a path few might take. The ink
> bufffers in the Canons make converting to alternative inks apparently
> impossible. There is work going on with installing special inks into
> a brand new Canon, so that the buffers will not already have OEM
> color ink in them, I have not heard how that is going. Assuming it
> goes well, it still will require interested users to find an unused
> printer that never had an initial OEM ink fill, and have the
> alternative inks be the actual init fill, with little chance of
> further experiments and changes. Clearly a large bump in the
> potentially promising road, it would be in everyone's best interests
> to come about. My apologies if this double posts, there was a server
> error at first attempt. Tyler


Tyler

Thank you, good to know.
I thought about a new iPF510 as a potential 4-5 quad tone printer.
4 picoliter and fast. 1000 Euro. It is not supported by TBW though.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
>
> On 06/04/2011 05:37 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> 
> >...The ink
> > bufffers in the Canons make converting to alternative inks apparently
> > impossible....

> Tyler
> 
> Thank you, good to know.
> I thought about a new iPF510 as a potential 4-5 quad tone printer.
> 4 picoliter and fast. 1000 Euro...

it's a bummer, no question. Had many possibilities. But at the least  the newer models with TBW and OEM ink provide another great alternative to Epson and HP OEM B&W. Let's hope someone cracks it, all those tanks to use...
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:

>
>HP is quietly phasing its swellable papers while at least in some cases still >retaining the product name.  For example,  HP Premium Plus photo paper Glossy is >now a microporous paper when it started out as a swellable paper.
>


The new quick-drying, microporous versions of HP Premium Plus are labeled "CRxxxA". The older swellable-polymer versions are designated "QxxxxA". 

For example, the new 8.5x11 (50-sheet) Gloss is coded CR664A, while the older 8.5x11 (50-sheet) High Gloss is coded Q1785A.

Both versions are available on the HP website, although only the old version is available in sizes larger than 8.5x11, at least so far.

--- Ned

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "luckyned22" <nedbar5@...> wrote:

> The new quick-drying, microporous versions of HP Premium Plus are labeled "CRxxxA". The older swellable-polymer versions are designated "QxxxxA". 
> 
> For example, the new 8.5x11 (50-sheet) Gloss is coded CR664A, while the older 8.5x11 (50-sheet) High Gloss is coded Q1785A.
> 
> Both versions are available on the HP website, although only the old version is available in sizes larger than 8.5x11, at least so far.
> 
> --- Ned
>

Thanks Ned, this is useful information, especially for ordering online. The packages of microporous  also indicate they are made in Germany while the swellable is marked Switzerland. Also, In examining a couple of nearly identical packages for both new and old Premium Plus photo glossy at my local Best Buy store I noted that the swellable paper has a small cautionary label "not recommended for HP38 ink cartridges" while the new microporous package adds a small label "New and improved Instant dry".  But otherwise, the packages are so similar even with the same pictorial photo and color scheme on the package that I doubt the average consumer will understand the switch that is taking place.  Lastly, I spotted in the Hp driver for one of the new Eprint Wireless Photosmart printers a media setting entitled "Hp Premium plus photo papers", i.e., the new pluralization of "papers" suggesting that HP is hinting in a very subtle way that the setting is the one to use for both  new and old versions!

cheers,
Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:
> 
> The packages of microporous  also indicate they are made in Germany while the swellable is marked Switzerland.


Ilford Galerie Classic is/was also made in Switzerland, so it seems likely that swellable HP5 (HP Premium Plus Photo Paper) is/was made for HP by Ilford. Has anyone noticed any significant difference between otherwise identical prints on these two papers?

--- Ned

"Mark" <mark@...> wrote:


> ...  I'm the primary author of two key published papers related to the subject of humidity induced dye migration in inkjet media. ...
> 
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/isj/WIR_JapanHardcopy2005MMG_HW.pdf
> 
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/is_t/WIR_ISTpaper_2003_09_MMG_HW.pdf
>...

I was curious if I could (crudely) replicate these results with the Noritsu dye inkset, which includes a 30/70 dilution LK version of the dye.  I made prints of resolution charts on Red River Metallic paper and placed them in a sealed jar that had water in it (initially hot to be sure the air was saturated quickly).  This was left for 2 days.

There were 3 types of test strips: Control (not in the jar), "No Spray" (a test strip in the jar with no spray applied after printing), and "Sprayed." (There were 2 different versions of this, one with 3 passes and one with 6 passes of Lascaux acrylic spray.  I've posted only the 6-pass version.)

The bottom line is that I do not see significant resolution reduction in the results.  However, there does appear to be a reduction in density, rather visible in the 50% resolution bars.

I've posted scans of the results.

At http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Dye-Humidity.JPG is a screen grab that shows the basic results, but not in much detail.

Even in this image the density reduction of the 50% resolution bars is apparent.  Using the PS Histogram to measure a selection of the central part of the largest resolution bars, the numbers are as follows: Control = 68, No Spray = 80, Sprayed = 78.  (The higher the number, the lighter the bar.)  The Control test strip 50% resolution bars are noticeably darker visually.

At http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Resolution-Ctrl-no-spray.jpg I've placed crops of the 7.2 and 3.6 lp/mm resolution results.  I don't see any differences here.

My initial conclusions from this is that these dyes on this paper may not get visibly softer with high humidity, but there may be a serious fade issue.

FWIW

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> My initial conclusions from this is that these dyes on this paper may not get visibly softer with high humidity, but there may be a serious fade issue.
> 
> FWIW
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

That's the first instance I've heard of for humidity-induced fading. Usually, the high moisture content causes both lateral and vertical migration in the coating, but the lateral bleed can be thought of as "dot gain" which usually causes density increases exceeding any decrease that might be occurring by continued vertical migration deeper into the media. That said, my humidity-fastness research was done a few years ago, and the RC photo type papers have been getting increasingly sophisticated subbing layers to draw off the solvent. These "improvements" may be contributing to your observation of density loss. Also, as I understand it you are experimenting with solvent modifications to the Claria Black dye, so you are breaking new ground there! 

 You might also want to rerun the experiment with an older matte paper type like HN photo rag to see if your fading observation is repeated with this dye set.  All in all, dye based inkjet is problematic where high color and tonal accuracy retention is coveted. Typical consumers for the latest wireless "all-in-one" desktop printers that claim "photo lab quality" output are less fussy about these matters apparently.



regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Mark wrote:

> ...
> That's the first instance I've heard of for humidity-induced fading.

I think we've known for some time that humidity accelerates many aspects of image deterioration, but the potential magnitude of humidity as a variable surprises me.  I'll definitely be doing some further testing to see how other combinations do in my "swamp" (?) jar.

Bob Zeiss, who was (probably still is) an excellent engineer and experimenter, felt that bleaches could be used for accelerated fade testing. I'm not sure what bleach he uses, but one that operates based on oxidizing the stains seems logical.  One experiment I may try is to add a percentage of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2 -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide ) to the water.  It's extra oxygen should accelerate the oxidation induced fading even more than just 100% humidity and whatever else was in the jar's air & water at the moment.  The closed jar with water and possible additive(s) in it would seem to give a way to get very even exposure to samples for good A v. B comparison.  Some quick and dirty way to test for sensitivity to oxidation seems useful.



> ... I understand you are experimenting with solvent modifications to the Claria Black dye, ...

Yes, and that is clearly a variable that I'll looking at soon.

I'll also test the HP Vivera dyes -- much to be done, but not much time right now.


> ... All in all, dye based inkjet is problematic ...

Yes, but the images dyes can put on high gloss substrates must be seen to understand why this effort may be worth the work.  Eboni will remain my fine art medium of choice.  HP Z3100/3200 PK + MIS glop looks like the best I can currently do for a practical neutral glossy pigment.  So for glossy display that is my top contender.  

This dye exploration is for short term, high impact, non-glazed uses like cards and brochures.  I do also wonder, however, what a hanging sheet of metallic paper would look like with lights intentionally set up to reflect shimmering highlights on viewers -- 3D without the glasses.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On 06/07/2011 05:21 PM, Mark wrote:
 > All in all, dye based inkjet is problematic where high color and tonal
accuracy retention is coveted. Typical consumers for the latest wireless
"all-in-one" desktop printers that claim "photo lab quality" output are
less fussy about these matters apparently.<

Mark,

The dry minilabs will set the "photo lab quality" standard soon enough 
and it looks like they all will be inkjet dye based. HP's version with 
the Vivera pigment does not get a wide spread.

While it would be nice to see Vivera dye tested on fade properties I 
think a test of the latest dry minilab output is as important.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

> Mark,
> 
> The dry minilabs will set the "photo lab quality" standard soon enough 
> and it looks like they all will be inkjet dye based. HP's version with 
> the Vivera pigment does not get a wide spread.
> 
> While it would be nice to see Vivera dye tested on fade properties I 
> think a test of the latest dry minilab output is as important.

As you probably are aware, I tested the inkjet minlab output in 2008 for lightfastness.  I don't think it has changed much since then. The Fuji and Noritsu machines compromised fine dot structure for speed and went with a "Claria type" CMYK-only dye set. No light cyan or magenta, so courser microstructure.  Meanwhile, the wireless all-in-ones have arrived and for the most part match or exceed the quality set by the inkjet drylabs. The major OEMs have also provided apps for iphones and ipads to print to these units, so the wireless "all-in-ones' may very well end up being the last man standing in the "traditional photofinishing" sector.  This sector is under tremendous pressure as most consumers seem to be perfectly happy sharing their photos in cyberspace.  Printing is optional.  My best guess is that whatever finally remains of the traditional 4x6 photofinishing experience will be online or on the home "all-in-one".  That said, there are some systems I'd like to add to the mix in light fade testing including Kodak's pigment photo inkjet printers and HP's pigmented offerings in the Kiosk "minilab" retail sector.

On 06/08/2011 12:21 AM, Mark wrote:

> As you probably are aware, I tested the inkjet minlab output in 2008
> for lightfastness.  I don't think it has changed much since then. The
> Fuji and Noritsu machines compromised fine dot structure for speed
> and went with a "Claria type" CMYK-only dye set. No light cyan or
> magenta, so courser microstructure.  Meanwhile, the wireless
> all-in-ones have arrived and for the most part match or exceed the
> quality set by the inkjet drylabs. The major OEMs have also provided
> apps for iphones and ipads to print to these units, so the wireless
> "all-in-ones' may very well end up being the last man standing in the
> "traditional photofinishing" sector.  This sector is under tremendous
> pressure as most consumers seem to be perfectly happy sharing their
> photos in cyberspace.  Printing is optional.  My best guess is that
> whatever finally remains of the traditional 4x6 photofinishing
> experience will be online or on the home "all-in-one".  That said,
> there are some systems I'd like to add to the mix in light fade
> testing including Kodak's pigment photo inkjet printers and HP's
> pigmented offerings in the Kiosk "minilab" retail sector.

Mark,

Yes, the 4x6 print from the minilab will be gone within a decade. Now 
they diversify the machines so other image carrying products can be made 
in line on them.

Fuji has an inkset on the Frontier DL600 with a light blue ink added to 
the CMYK so development within the industry did not end yet.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:


> Fuji has an inkset on the Frontier DL600 with a light blue ink added to 
> the CMYK so development within the industry did not end yet.
> 

Thanks, not sure where I'd go to print a test target on this machine, but it's an interesting development. I was actually anticipating that the DL machines would evolve to a full 6 ink set and possibly add photo gray (like HP used to have on some desktop printers and Canon currently has in it's revamped Chromalife 100+ dye set). But retail floorspace dedicated to photofinishing is dwindling, so it is obvious that the 1 hour photo concept is entering its twilight years.  A local photoshop switched from RA-4 to a Noritsu inkjet machine last year, but he tells me where he used to do about 400 rolls of film a week at the beginning of the decade, he's now down to less than ten customers per week requesting prints (from film or digital).  At this level, I would guess that the return on investment for his new machine is seriously questionable.

kind regards,
Mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark@...> wrote:

SNIP
A local photoshop switched from RA-4 to a Noritsu inkjet machine last year, but he tells me where he used to do about 400 rolls of film a week at the beginning of the decade, he's now down to less than ten customers per week requesting prints (from film or digital).  At this level, I would guess that the return on investment for his new machine is seriously questionable.
SNIP
> Mark

I guess that photography is moving into the cloud? I wonder how you will be able to test those "servers in the sky" for their archival properties, Mark? ;-)

Better throw in there earthquake, tsunami, flood, volcano and comet resistance also!

John Nollendorfs

I don't remember back to your original post on this, but did you use tap water from a public drinking water system?  Regulations require some amount of residual chlorine at the tap.  That could cause fading.  If you used tap, you might wish to consider distilled or deionized water and repeat.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> Mark wrote:
> 
> > ...
> > That's the first instance I've heard of for humidity-induced fading.
> 
> I think we've known for some time that humidity accelerates many aspects of image deterioration, but the potential magnitude of humidity as a variable surprises me.  I'll definitely be doing some further testing to see how other combinations do in my "swamp" (?) jar.
> 
> Bob Zeiss, who was (probably still is) an excellent engineer and experimenter, felt that bleaches could be used for accelerated fade testing. I'm not sure what bleach he uses, but one that operates based on oxidizing the stains seems logical.  One experiment I may try is to add a percentage of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2 -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide ) to the water.  It's extra oxygen should accelerate the oxidation induced fading even more than just 100% humidity and whatever else was in the jar's air & water at the moment.  The closed jar with water and possible additive(s) in it would seem to give a way to get very even exposure to samples for good A v. B comparison.  Some quick and dirty way to test for sensitivity to oxidation seems useful.
> 
> 
> 
> > ... I understand you are experimenting with solvent modifications to the Claria Black dye, ...
> 
> Yes, and that is clearly a variable that I'll looking at soon.
> 
> I'll also test the HP Vivera dyes -- much to be done, but not much time right now.
> 
> 
> > ... All in all, dye based inkjet is problematic ...
> 
> Yes, but the images dyes can put on high gloss substrates must be seen to understand why this effort may be worth the work.  Eboni will remain my fine art medium of choice.  HP Z3100/3200 PK + MIS glop looks like the best I can currently do for a practical neutral glossy pigment.  So for glossy display that is my top contender.  
> 
> This dye exploration is for short term, high impact, non-glazed uses like cards and brochures.  I do also wonder, however, what a hanging sheet of metallic paper would look like with lights intentionally set up to reflect shimmering highlights on viewers -- 3D without the glasses.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"richardeskin" <richard.eskin@...> wrote:
>
> I don't remember back to your original post on this, but did you use tap water from a public drinking water system? 

Yes, I just used tap water.

> Regulations require some amount of residual chlorine at the tap.  That could cause fading.  If you used tap, you might wish to consider distilled or deionized water and repeat.


I agree, the chlorine was probably a prime factor.

I was not looking for fade with this experiment.  I was curious about migration, which would have caused the resolution lines to blur.  I was happy to see that on that paper -- Red River Polar Pearl Metallic -- there was no evidence of the migration problem.  The fade was a surprise.  

The fading I ran into reminded me of what Bob Zeiss did for a quick and dirty fade test -- dip a test strip into bleach.  See http://www.inksupply.com/fading.cfm 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > Bob Zeiss, who was (probably still is) an excellent engineer and experimenter, felt that bleaches could be used for accelerated fade testing. I'm not sure what bleach he uses, but one that operates based on oxidizing the stains seems logical.  One experiment I may try is to add a percentage of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2 -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide ) to the water.  It's extra oxygen should accelerate the oxidation induced fading even more than just 100% humidity and whatever else was in the jar's air & water at the moment.  The closed jar with water and possible additive(s) in it would seem to give a way to get very even exposure to samples for good A v. B comparison.  Some quick and dirty way to test for sensitivity to oxidation seems useful.
> > ...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
SNIP 
> 
> The fading I ran into reminded me of what Bob Zeiss did for a quick and dirty fade test -- dip a test strip into bleach.  See http://www.inksupply.com/fading.cfm 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 

There you go, the definitive fading test that doesn't use light at all! ;-)

John Nollendorfs

I tried some of the HP Vivera 72 gray and PK dyes in a 1400. Sadly, the HP dyes have some problems.  The PK black only image is fairly good, but the gray is warm and has terrible metamerism -- significantly worse than the Claria.  The dmax is not as good, and there is a slight amount of bronzing and gloss differential.   The ink may be incompatible with MIS glossy inks.

(If anyone wants some HP 72 gray & PK dye cheap, let me know.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> The Vivera "72" dye inkset for the HP DesignJet T1100 may be an interesting commercially available set for high gloss, non-archival printing -- an alternative to the Noritsu (Claria) inputs I have been using. (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/BW-Dye.pdf )
> 
> Significantly, this HP inkset uses a gray.  So, no mixing would be needed to use it.  And, the gray and PK are available in 130 ml carts.
> 
> See http://h10088.www1.hp.com/gap/Data/en/t_series_image_quality.pdf
> 
> The prices at Atlex are not bad for commercial ink -- 130 ml/$55.  
> 
> See  http://www.atlex.com/hp_designjet/t1100.htm 
> 
> ...

On 06/11/2011 08:02 AM, Paul wrote:
> I tried some of the HP Vivera 72 gray and PK dyes in a 1400. Sadly, the HP dyes have some problems.  The PK black only image is fairly good, but the gray is warm and has terrible metamerism -- significantly worse than the Claria.  The dmax is not as good, and there is a slight amount of bronzing and gloss differential.   The ink may be incompatible with MIS glossy inks.
>
> (If anyone wants some HP 72 gray&  PK dye cheap, let me know.)
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Ah, that is bad.  It is interesting though that B&W dyes seem to be more 
prone to "metamerism" than pigment inks. Lyson, HP Vivera dye, Claria, 
in that order.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

> ... It is interesting though that B&W dyes seem to be more 
> prone to "metamerism" than pigment inks. 
> Lyson, HP Vivera dye, Claria, in that order.
...


It's a serious defect in the extreme forms.  

On a re-examination of the various test prints I've recently made with the dye inks, I wanted to note that the HP 72 black only print's metamerism and other qualities are within a usable range.  The gray (LK) is not, in my view, due to tone and metamerism issues.  Nonetheless, the HP 72 in a black only format does have some promise.


For my cards and brochures, however, the Noritsu-Epson combo takes back the business.  I need an LK-density ink to smooth the edge performance of the 1400.  With a dilute Noritsu mix in the setup the 1400 can print good edges and otherwise better deal with printer transport and other print quality limits. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



>
> On 06/11/2011 08:02 AM, Paul wrote:
> > I tried some of the HP Vivera 72 gray and PK dyes in a 1400. Sadly, the HP dyes have some problems.  The PK black only image is fairly good, but the gray is warm and has terrible metamerism -- significantly worse than the Claria.  The dmax is not as good, and there is a slight amount of bronzing and gloss differential.   The ink may be incompatible with MIS glossy inks.
> >
> > (If anyone wants some HP 72 gray&  PK dye cheap, let me know.)
...

On 06/08/2011 03:48 PM, Mark wrote:
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst
> Dinkla<edinkla@...>  wrote:
>
>
>> Fuji has an inkset on the Frontier DL600 with a light blue ink
>> added to the CMYK so development within the industry did not end
>> yet.
>>
>
> Thanks, not sure where I'd go to print a test target on this machine,
> but it's an interesting development. I was actually anticipating that
> the DL machines would evolve to a full 6 ink set and possibly add
> photo gray (like HP used to have on some desktop printers and Canon
> currently has in it's revamped Chromalife 100+ dye set). But retail
> floorspace dedicated to photofinishing is dwindling, so it is obvious
> that the 1 hour photo concept is entering its twilight years.  A
> local photoshop switched from RA-4 to a Noritsu inkjet machine last
> year, but he tells me where he used to do about 400 rolls of film a
> week at the beginning of the decade, he's now down to less than ten
> customers per week requesting prints (from film or digital).  At this
> level, I would guess that the return on investment for his new
> machine is seriously questionable.
>
> kind regards, Mark
>
>

Canon entered the Minilab market too:
http://usa.canon.com/cusa/production/products/production_photo_printers/dreamlabo_5000#Specifications

It the six inks and an extra grey ink like the Chromalife 100+ dye set. 
This one is dye based too and printing speed right away at the top. 
First machines available in 2012.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

But at a very high cost that only the largest labs will pay.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ernst Dinkla"

Canon entered the Minilab market too:
http://usa.canon.com/cusa/production/products/production_photo_printers/dreamlabo_5000#Specifications

It the six inks and an extra grey ink like the Chromalife 100+ dye set.
This one is dye based too and printing speed right away at the top.
First machines available in 2012.

On 07/04/2011 04:50 PM, john castronovo wrote:
> But at a very high cost that only the largest labs will pay.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ernst Dinkla"

Very true. They are however aiming at another market too. HP Indigo kind 
of jobs and they are not cheap either.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

On 06/04/2011 05:37 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla<edinkla@...>  wrote:
>>
>> ...Bowhaus TBW will
>> drive Canon pro models with custom B&W inks..
>
> unfortunately this will turn out to be a path few might take. The ink bufffers in the Canons make converting to alternative inks apparently impossible. There is work going on with installing special inks into a brand new Canon, so that the buffers will not already have OEM color ink in them, I have not heard how that is going. Assuming it goes well, it still will require interested users to find an unused printer that never had an initial OEM ink fill, and have the alternative inks be the actual init fill, with little chance of further experiments and changes.
> Clearly a large bump in the potentially promising road, it would be in everyone's best interests to come about.
> My apologies if this double posts, there was a server error at first attempt.
> Tyler


Tyler,

Is the problem related to big ink buffers in the head, near the  head, 
that it would take a long time before a custom B&W inkset is totally 
free from the original inks mixing in? There is no way to pull out all 
the old inks before the new inks are inserted like I could do with an 
Epson 10000 that had relative big head buffers too ?


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
>
> On 06/04/2011 05:37 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla<edinkla@>  wrote:
> >>
> >> ...Bowhaus TBW will
> >> drive Canon pro models with custom B&W inks..
> >
> > unfortunately this will turn out to be a path few might take. The ink bufffers in the Canons make converting to alternative inks apparently impossible...
> 
> Tyler,
> 
> Is the problem related to big ink buffers in the head, near the  head, 
> that it would take a long time before a custom B&W inkset is totally 
> free from the original inks mixing in? There is no way to pull out all 
> the old inks before the new inks are inserted like I could do with an 
> Epson 10000 that had relative big head buffers too ?

that's my understanding from reliable sources... I'm afraid I have no personal hands on experience. I believe the buffers are in the printer body and not the heads as I recall. This is backed up by the relatively simple head replacement which would render the issue solved if the only buffer problems were in the head.
http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/message/view/FAQ/33471876
Tyler