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compromise needed

compromise needed

2011-09-25 by benoit.lantoine

Hello,

I've already tried the following on my epson 1400 :

BO using MK Eboni on various non OBA papers
EB6 on Epson Hot Press Natural

I would like to get cooler prints. I don't know which setup is the best compromise between durability and neutrality :

- EB6 on BW papers (Epson Hot Press BW is OK ? Has anyone tried the new Harman by Hanhemuhle Cotton Smooth papers ?)
- Eboni based inkset containing dyes to get cooler prints (EB4+, UT14, EB1400) on non OBA paper

Thank you all.

Re: compromise needed

2011-09-26 by fotofantom

I am surprised to see that UT-14 contains dyes.  Is this true?  I thought it was all pigment.

Greg F.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hello,
> 
> I've already tried the following on my epson 1400 :
> 
> BO using MK Eboni on various non OBA papers
> EB6 on Epson Hot Press Natural
> 
> I would like to get cooler prints. I don't know which setup is the best compromise between durability and neutrality :
> 
> - EB6 on BW papers (Epson Hot Press BW is OK ? Has anyone tried the new Harman by Hanhemuhle Cotton Smooth papers ?)
> - Eboni based inkset containing dyes to get cooler prints (EB4+, UT14, EB1400) on non OBA paper
> 
> Thank you all.
>

Re: [Digital BW] compromise needed

2011-09-26 by Ernst Dinkla

On 09/25/2011 08:55 PM, benoit.lantoine wrote:

> I would like to get cooler prints. I don't know which setup is the best compromise between durability and neutrality :
>
> - EB6 on BW papers (Epson Hot Press BW is OK ? Has anyone tried the new Harman by Hanhemuhle Cotton Smooth papers ?)
> - Eboni based inkset containing dyes to get cooler prints (EB4+, UT14, EB1400) on non OBA paper
>

I guess an inkset mixed from the HP PK Vivera pigment ink and an OBA 
containing paper that keeps its white according to Aardenburg tests 
would be the best in durability and should be cool to neutral. Anything 
beyond will need a blue pigment ink addition.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: compromise needed

2011-09-26 by Paul

"benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@...> wrote:

> I've already tried the following on my epson 1400 :
> 
> BO using MK Eboni on various non OBA papers
> EB6 on Epson Hot Press Natural
> 
> I would like to get cooler prints.


That issue was the purpose of my experimenting with the various cooler inks in the "Eboni-4 Plus" write-up.  

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-4-Plus.pdf

The easiest and cheapest of these to implement is to use the MIS UT14 C and LC.  The most lightfast would be to use the HP Z3100 PK and Gray (LK) (OEM or user mixed).

UT14 does not use dyes.  The coolness is from MIS color pigments.  For all by museum work, the UT14 is stable enough.


> - Eboni based inkset containing dyes to get cooler prints (EB4+, UT14, EB1400) on non OBA paper


The only dye inks I use and recommend are the Epson-Noritsu (Claria) dyes.  Some http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ fade testing suggests that these dyes might actually be more stable than at least some third party color pigments.  I take no position on this.  Mixing the dyes to get a lighter gray ink may be more than you want to take on now.  Using just the K dye may result in a print that is too green.  So, my initial reaction would be to avoid the dyes at this point.

The OBAs in papers are dyes and are known to "fade," causing the paper tone to drift to that of the natural, underlying paper.  How bad is this?  It may depend, in part, on how warm the underlying paper is.  In terms of the total image tone stability, it's not good, but, frankly, I look at where the final image tone will be and what the tonal drift path is.  We're not talking about a drift into the green zone.  There is no image fade, and the final image -- possible years from now -- may be no different than if you'd used non-OBA paper to start with.  My main concern with using brightened paper for images that are sold is that years from now if the print is taken out of the matte, there will be a difference between the image tone where the matte covered the paper and where it didn't.  (If/when I can put about 1% yellow on the border to control that and not over-mat image, I may have almost no concerns with using good brightened paper.)

I'd recommend, bottom line, that you try the Eb4+ approach with UT14 cool C and LC.  It's easy and cheap to buy a couple carts to test and then bulk ink if you like it. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: compromise needed

2011-09-26 by Paul

UT14 does not contain dyes.  It uses MIS color pigments to cool the warm MIS glossy carbon in the C and LC inks. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "fotofantom" <gfight@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I am surprised to see that UT-14 contains dyes.  Is this true?  I thought it was all pigment.
> 
> Greg F.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I've already tried the following on my epson 1400 :
> > 
> > BO using MK Eboni on various non OBA papers
> > EB6 on Epson Hot Press Natural
> > 
> > I would like to get cooler prints. I don't know which setup is the best compromise between durability and neutrality :
> > 
> > - EB6 on BW papers (Epson Hot Press BW is OK ? Has anyone tried the new Harman by Hanhemuhle Cotton Smooth papers ?)
> > - Eboni based inkset containing dyes to get cooler prints (EB4+, UT14, EB1400) on non OBA paper
> > 
> > Thank you all.
> >
>

Re: compromise needed

2011-09-26 by fotofantom

That's good to know.  Thanks Paul.

Greg F.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> UT14 does not contain dyes.  It uses MIS color pigments to cool the warm MIS glossy carbon in the C and LC inks. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "fotofantom" <gfight@> wrote:
> >
> > I am surprised to see that UT-14 contains dyes.  Is this true?  I thought it was all pigment.
> > 
> > Greg F.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > I've already tried the following on my epson 1400 :
> > > 
> > > BO using MK Eboni on various non OBA papers
> > > EB6 on Epson Hot Press Natural
> > > 
> > > I would like to get cooler prints. I don't know which setup is the best compromise between durability and neutrality :
> > > 
> > > - EB6 on BW papers (Epson Hot Press BW is OK ? Has anyone tried the new Harman by Hanhemuhle Cotton Smooth papers ?)
> > > - Eboni based inkset containing dyes to get cooler prints (EB4+, UT14, EB1400) on non OBA paper
> > > 
> > > Thank you all.
> > >
> >
>

Re: compromise needed

2011-09-29 by benoit.lantoine

Hello Paul

Thank you for the explanations.
One more question: what about eb1400 since only one carbon ink mixed with color is needed? Wouldn't it make the prints more stable than prints made with eb4+?

Have a nice day

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> "benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@> wrote:
> 
> > I've already tried the following on my epson 1400 :
> > 
> > BO using MK Eboni on various non OBA papers
> > EB6 on Epson Hot Press Natural
> > 
> > I would like to get cooler prints.
> 
> 
> That issue was the purpose of my experimenting with the various cooler inks in the "Eboni-4 Plus" write-up.  
> 
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-4-Plus.pdf
> 
> The easiest and cheapest of these to implement is to use the MIS UT14 C and LC.  The most lightfast would be to use the HP Z3100 PK and Gray (LK) (OEM or user mixed).
> 
> UT14 does not use dyes.  The coolness is from MIS color pigments.  For all by museum work, the UT14 is stable enough.
> 
> 
> > - Eboni based inkset containing dyes to get cooler prints (EB4+, UT14, EB1400) on non OBA paper
> 
> 
> The only dye inks I use and recommend are the Epson-Noritsu (Claria) dyes.  Some http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ fade testing suggests that these dyes might actually be more stable than at least some third party color pigments.  I take no position on this.  Mixing the dyes to get a lighter gray ink may be more than you want to take on now.  Using just the K dye may result in a print that is too green.  So, my initial reaction would be to avoid the dyes at this point.
> 
> The OBAs in papers are dyes and are known to "fade," causing the paper tone to drift to that of the natural, underlying paper.  How bad is this?  It may depend, in part, on how warm the underlying paper is.  In terms of the total image tone stability, it's not good, but, frankly, I look at where the final image tone will be and what the tonal drift path is.  We're not talking about a drift into the green zone.  There is no image fade, and the final image -- possible years from now -- may be no different than if you'd used non-OBA paper to start with.  My main concern with using brightened paper for images that are sold is that years from now if the print is taken out of the matte, there will be a difference between the image tone where the matte covered the paper and where it didn't.  (If/when I can put about 1% yellow on the border to control that and not over-mat image, I may have almost no concerns with using good brightened paper.)
> 
> I'd recommend, bottom line, that you try the Eb4+ approach with UT14 cool C and LC.  It's easy and cheap to buy a couple carts to test and then bulk ink if you like it. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: compromise needed

2011-09-29 by Paul

"benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@...> wrote:

>...
> One more question: what about eb1400 

http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf

> since only one carbon ink mixed with color is needed? 
> Wouldn't it make the prints more stable than prints made with eb4+?
 
I think they would have the same lightfastness.  In Eb1400 a single HP Z3100 PKn or UT14C (also a PKn, slightly cooler than the HP) is used.  In the Eb4+ mix the lighter (more dilute, LK) versions of these neutralized PKn's are put in the LC position.  For any given print tone I think the same amount of color pigments would be used.  So the reduction in longevity relative to 100% carbon would be essentially the same.

The Eb4+ -- http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-4-Plus.pdf -- is going to be smoother and easier to profile where you want cooler prints.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > "benoit.lantoine" <benoit.lantoine@> wrote:
> > 
> > > I've already tried the following on my epson 1400 :
> > > 
> > > BO using MK Eboni on various non OBA papers
> > > EB6 on Epson Hot Press Natural
> > > 
> > > I would like to get cooler prints.
> > 
> > 
> > That issue was the purpose of my experimenting with the various cooler inks in the "Eboni-4 Plus" write-up.  
> > 
> > See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-4-Plus.pdf
> > 
> > The easiest and cheapest of these to implement is to use the MIS UT14 C and LC.  The most lightfast would be to use the HP Z3100 PK and Gray (LK) (OEM or user mixed).
> > ...

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