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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul

2011-11-21 by David Kachel

>>> Are you going to be printing matte or glossy?

Matte only.

If all you're interested in is the warmest carbon images, then you could
fill all of the positions with the MIS carbon.

Just got off the phone with MIS. They tell me that the inks found on this
page: http://www.inksupply.com/eb6.cfm

Šare all exactly the same thing you refer to as "MIS carbon" inks? Is that
correct? So do I correctly assume that K, PK LK and LLK are all something
else?


You might consider modeling the all warm carbon printer after the UT14 --
Eboni in K, PK in both M and C, LK in both LM and LC, and then LLK in Y.

Still confused. Are those all "MIS carbon" inks you refer to above? That is,
are K, PK LK and LLK synonyms for "MIS carbon"? Or are these different inks
from the MIS carbon you recommended above? Are there any dyes mixed into
those inks if they are not the same?

Can you tell me what inks to order, dilutions to make, printer positions for
the cartridges (Epson 1400), to get met started? I would prefer to dilute
from one stock ink source if that will work, rather than buy already
diluted.
 Thanks.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul

2011-11-21 by Paul

David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
>
> 

> Matte only.
> 

> Just got off the phone with MIS. They tell me that the 
> inks found on this
> page: http://www.inksupply.com/eb6.cfm
> are all exactly the same thing you refer to as "MIS carbon" inks? 


Eboni-6 is my standard matte 100% carbon printing approach.  However, if you want warmer, the MIS glossy-compatible 100% carbons -- K4 PK, LK, and LLK among them -- will give you a warmer image.  The reason I like Eboni is that it's the least warm carbon.  I've had the impression you want more warmth.

> So do I correctly assume that K, PK LK and LLK are all something
> else?

The MIS MK is almost always Eboni.  The PK, LK, and LLK are a different carbon pigment.  It's very small and thus very warm.  While it's glossy compatible, they print very well on matte paper also.  They also stay in suspension very well -- better than the Epson versions.  Clogging is average with them.  I have them in my 7800 and have never had a significant clog with them.  I use them when I want a warmer print than Eboni-6 (also in the 7800) will produce.


> > You might consider modeling the all warm carbon printer 
> > after the UT14 -- Eboni in K, PK in both M and C, LK in
> > both LM and LC, and then LLK in Y.
 
> Still confused. Are those all "MIS carbon" inks you refer to above?

Yes.  Eboni MK (matte black) and the MIS PK, LK, LLK are all 100% carbon.  There are also other MIS densities of this glossy carbon, but  I tend to favor sticking with industry standard (roughly) densities these days.

> That is, are K, PK LK and LLK synonyms for "MIS carbon"? 


Yes, but there are 2 families of MIS carbon.  One is Eboni-based, and the other is MIS PK-based.  I (and MIS) dilute down from those concentrates.

> Are there any dyes mixed into
> those inks if they are not the same?

There are no dyes in either of the above MIS carbon families.

(Note, advanced dyes may have stronger colors than some third party pigments.  We need to re-adjust our thinking about dyes v. pigments with the new technologies.  Third party carbon is great, however.)

 
> Can you tell me what inks to order, dilutions to make, 
> printer positions for the cartridges (Epson 1400), 
> to get met started?

You need to make a decision as to Eboni v. PK-based.  If you want the warmest, go with the PK.  If you are aiming at a sepia look, even though you think you want matte, once you see an MIS PK, LK, LLK print on Museo Silver Rag, you'll probably change your mind. 

If you want the warmest matte (with Museo possible with a different profile type) try K=Eboni MK, C & M = MIS K4 PK, LM & LC = MIS K4 LK, and Y = MIS K4 LLK.

> I would prefer to dilute from one stock ink source if that 
> will work, rather than buy already diluted.

I don't recommend DIY dilution for the MIS PK-based inks.  You can use MIS glop as a dilution base, but you don't save anything.  I've had mixed results using my generic base for MIS PK.  First, you lose the glossy compatibility, and second, one long term trial with this approach ended up clogging a lot -- not sure if it was the mix, printer, or user.  But with that track record and loss of glossy capability, I'd avoid user mixing of MIS PK.  The bulk is cheap enough as is.

With Eboni the generic base has worked very well.  Again, however, the MIS bulk prices are really quite good as is.  I use MIS Eboni-6.  But what I call "Carbon-6," to distinguish it from MIS's Eboni-6, is the cheapest route to the most lightfast yet smooth 100% carbon prints, and it has been extremely reliable in long term tests.  Dilute Eboni may not be warm enough for you, however.  It can be warm, but not close to what I consider a "sepia" look.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul

2011-11-21 by David Kachel

>>> You need to make a decision as to Eboni v. PK-based. If you want the
warmest, go with the PK. If you are aiming at a sepia look, even though you
think you want matte, once you see an MIS PK, LK, LLK print on Museo Silver Rag,
you'll probably change your mind.

My apologies, but I am really VERY confused here.

You said: "if you want the warmest, go with PK". Then in the next paragraph
you say: "if you want the warmest matte, try  K=Eboni MK, C & M = MIS K4 PK,
LM & LC = MIS K4 LK, and Y = MIS K4 LLK." So I don't know which to use; PK
or Eboni. I don't know which to use.

I want the warmest possible prints I can get on matte paper. I do not ever
print on glossy. If using glossy inks will get me a warmer print on matte
paper than using matte inks, I would rather use the glossy formulated inks.

Also, you are giving me ink names I cannot find anywhere on MIS's web site.
I do not see inks named  MIS K4 PK or MIS K4 LK, etc. on the only page MIS
tells me they have Carbon inks: http://www.inksupply.com/eb6.cfm

Am I looking in the wrong place?

>> But what I call "Carbon-6

I also can't find this ink on their web site. Do you have a URL?

Thanks again for your patience.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul

2011-11-21 by Paul

David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
>
... 
> I want the warmest possible prints I can get on matte paper.

Then if you want 100% carbon on matte paper, MIS PK, LK, and LLK, or Peizo K6 carbon are the way to go.

With the MIS warm carbon, you'll want the Eboni MK for matte paper.  The PK does not give a good dmax.  It is used as a dark mistone ink.  That's why the layout is K=Eboni, C & M = PK, LC & LM = LK, and Y = LLK.

The inks are sold by MIS as the "K4" K, PK, LK, and LLK. See

http://www.inksupply.com/product-details.cfm?pn=K4-4-K

http://www.inksupply.com/product-details.cfm?pn=K4-4-pk

http://www.inksupply.com/product-details.cfm?pn=K4-4-LK

http://www.inksupply.com/product-details.cfm?pn=K4-4-LLK


For the Piezo carbon K6 see 
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.15/category.11134/.f


With Piezo inks you'll want Jon's profiles and QTR, I think.  With the MIS carbon set up as above, the Epson driver will be close.  A simply linearization with QTR's Create ICC will help.  I do not have specific profiles for the MIS setup above.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul

2011-11-22 by David Kachel

>>> With the MIS warm carbon, you'll want the Eboni MK for matte paper. The PK
does not give a good dmax. It is used as a dark mistone ink. That's why the
layout is K=Eboni, C & M = PK, LC & LM = LK, and Y = LLK.

OK. I think the fog is beginning to clear. If I understand correctly, this
setup uses the standard neutral black ink (Eboni) in order to get decent
dmax. The PK is used primarily to add warmth and for midtones, and LK and
LLK (also warm?) are used in two slots each more or less to fill all the
slots and keep tones smooth.

In theory could I use LK and LLK in only one slot each and put Windex in two
slots? (I won't, just would like to know)

How will the warmth of this setup compare to Cone's sepia inks, assuming all
else is the same?

Could I use this same warm tone setup you outline in an Epson 3800? If so,
what inks should go in which slots there?



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul

2011-11-22 by Paul

David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
>
> >>> With the MIS warm carbon, you'll want the Eboni MK 
for matte paper. The PK does not give a good dmax. It is 
used as a dark midtone ink. That's why the layout is 
K=Eboni, C & M = PK, LC & LM = LK, and Y = LLK.


 
> ... If I understand correctly, this setup uses the standard 
> neutral black ink (Eboni) in order to get decent
> dmax. The PK is used primarily to add warmth and for midtones,

And it adds lots of density in the deep shadows.


> and LK and LLK (also warm?)

Yes.  They are just diluted PK.

> are used in two slots each more or less to fill all the
> slots and keep tones smooth.

Yes.

 
> In theory could I use LK and LLK in only one slot each 
> and put Windex in two slots?

No.  You need all spots filled for the Epson driver to do a good job.  Also the ammonia in Windex should not be on or in the head too long.

 
> How will the warmth of this setup compare to Cone's sepia 
> inks, assuming all else is the same?

They are very similar in tone.

 
> Could I use this same warm tone setup you outline in 
> an Epson 3800?

Probably a somewhat similar setup would work.  With K3 machines the gray substitution can cause problems if the LK position is too light relative to the C and M.  Also, the 3800 has larger dots, so you might want to move all the light inks to LLK, have the C and M be LK, and have the LLK and LK spots be LK and Pk. I've never set up a 3800, however.

Note that MIS has what call UT-C and LC that are denser than the LK and LLK.  So, you can increase the number of different densities and mix up the starting points with curves.  This might increase smoothness a bit.  But, one thing at a time.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul

2011-11-22 by David Kachel

> How will the warmth of this setup compare to Cone's sepia
> inks, assuming all else is the same?

They are very similar in tone.

Good. 'Cause I just looked at Cone's carbon inks again: WOW! TRIPLE the
price!

Thanks for your help. Time to take the plunge I guess. Though I see prices
on the 1400 have magically gone back up in the last couple days. Must be
getting close to Xmas!    ;-)

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul

2011-11-22 by edward wiseman

David..Go here, and you cna get one for $199 inclusive of an $80 rebate..
http://www.atlex.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=C11C655001

Great company..Just a satisfied customer here!

Eddie
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Kachel 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 10:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul


    
  > How will the warmth of this setup compare to Cone's sepia
  > inks, assuming all else is the same?

  They are very similar in tone.

  Good. 'Cause I just looked at Cone's carbon inks again: WOW! TRIPLE the
  price!

  Thanks for your help. Time to take the plunge I guess. Though I see prices
  on the 1400 have magically gone back up in the last couple days. Must be
  getting close to Xmas! ;-)

  David Kachel

  ___________________

  Artist-Photographer
  Fine B&W Photographs

  www.davidkachel.com
  david@...

  Gallery:
  www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
  director@...

  PO Box 1893
  Alpine, TX 79831
  (432) 386-5787

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul

2011-11-23 by David Kachel

>>> That's why the layout is
>>> K=Eboni, C & M = PK, LC & LM = LK, and Y = LLK.

Paul,

I may have a line on a good deal for a 2880.
Would that have any advantages over the 1400 for the warm tone prints I am
after? I do like cold press Arches paper and presume the 2880 would handle
the thickness better(?).
Also, would I be able to use the same warm ink setup in a WF 1100? Seems
like to good a deal to pass up as a backup printer. I notice you like this
printer. How does it do with thicker papers?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Warm carbon, questions for Paul

2011-11-23 by Paul

David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
>
> >>> That's why the layout is
> >>> K=Eboni, C & M = PK, LC & LM = LK, and Y = LLK.
> 
> Paul,
> 
> I may have a line on a good deal for a 2880.
> Would that have any advantages over the 1400 for the 
> warm tone prints I am after? I do like cold press Arches 
> paper and presume the 2880 would handle
> the thickness better(?).


I have never used a 2880 and can't compare the paper feed issues.  I use the 1400 with Arches 140 lb. and H. Photo Rag 308.  All I ever do is give a slight manual assist.

With respect to Arches, I've sometimes been able to achieve a dmax of over 1.60 with the 1400, which is in excess of any 3 pl printer I've used.  On the other hand, the other day it was not better than the 7800, particularly when some PK was used to beef up the Eboni at 100%.

The main defect with the 1400 that I most often run into is the microbanding at the leading and trailing edges where they are narrow.  It is sensitive to paper feed issues.  Both rollers need to be engaged for quality printing.  Some of the other desktop printers are also showing this problem, apparently.  I'm not sure about the 2880.  The 1100, at least with the K2-Quad setup is shows none of the problem.


> Also, would I be able to use the same warm ink setup in a WF 1100?

I highly recommend you use the "K2-Quad" setup -- Eboni in the K position and LK in all of the "color" positions.  With one of the "sequential" curves/ICCs I have you'll never notice any dots.  This setup is the easiest to profile and maintain -- all you need is two inks -- one midtone and one black.  The inks can be any K and LK inks.  That is, as long as empty carts remain available, there will always be competitive inks available.

> How does it do with thicker papers?

HPR 308 feeds as usual with a slight manual assist.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

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