Digital BW, The Print

Now for something entirely different.

While I'm clearly an advocate of 100% carbon on natural (no OBA) cotton based paper for the most the most stable fine art images, I also appreciate a dramatic glossy B&W. 

So, my next effort is something totally different.

I believe I've found a source for bulk quantities of advanced dye similar to Epson Claria.  I'll be testing this first in a 1.5 pl printer using black only and perhaps a 3-K approach like the 1800 3-MK workflow.  I'm also researching the bases that might be needed to dilute the dye and make a full B&W, glossy advanced dye inkset that would be usable in most Epson printers.  Think big, artifact-free, super dramatic B&W.

If you've never seen a Claria black only image, do yourself a favor and get to the Rose-Lynn Fisher's reception at the Graig Krull gallery in Santa Monica, CA, December 4, 4 - 6.  I hope to be there.  Rose-Lynn's Bee exhibit is Claria black only and most impressive.  

See http://www.craigkrullgallery.com/Exhibition/next.html

Keep in mind that advanced dyes are, in my view, in the same class with the third party color pigments I've been using when it comes to image stability.  (Some would say they are better in all respects.)  Advanced dye with a UV spray may be similar to what one would expect from the third party blended carbon-color B&W inksets in terms of stability.  

Technology has improved significantly since the days of the 1270.  It's not in the league with carbon, but this just might be a very cool B&W medium for cards (my gallery brochures being a specific target) and most of what people want a B&W print for.  Time and testing will tell.  It should be a fun.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Op 25-11-2010 8:01, Paul schreef:

>
> I believe I've found a source for bulk quantities of advanced dye
> similar to Epson Claria.  I'll be testing this first in a 1.5 pl
> printer using black only and perhaps a 3-K approach like the 1800
> 3-MK workflow.  I'm also researching the bases that might be needed
> to dilute the dye and make a full B&W, glossy advanced dye inkset
> that would be usable in most Epson printers.  Think big,
> artifact-free, super dramatic B&W.

Paul, will that also mean a return to gelatine/PVA coated papers to get 
the optimal conditions for the "dye" inks?


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> I believe I've found a source for bulk quantities of advanced dye similar to Epson Claria.  

Very interesting Paul. Will await further news with interest!

Alistair

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> Now for something entirely different.
> 
> While I'm clearly an advocate of 100% carbon on natural (no OBA) cotton based paper for the most the most stable fine art images, I also appreciate a dramatic glossy B&W. 
> 
> So, my next effort is something totally different.
> 
> I believe I've found a source for bulk quantities of advanced dye similar to Epson Claria.  I'll be testing this first in a 1.5 pl printer using black only and perhaps a 3-K approach like the 1800 3-MK workflow.  I'm also researching the bases that might be needed to dilute the dye and make a full B&W, glossy advanced dye inkset that would be usable in most Epson printers.  Think big, artifact-free, super dramatic B&W.
> 
> Keep in mind that advanced dyes are, in my view, in the same class with the third party color pigments I've been using when it comes to image stability.  (Some would say they are better in all respects.)  Advanced dye with a UV spray may be similar to what one would expect from the third party blended carbon-color B&W inksets in terms of stability.  
> 
> Technology has improved significantly since the days of the 1270.  It's not in the league with carbon, but this just might be a very cool B&W medium for cards (my gallery brochures being a specific target) and most of what people want a B&W print for.  Time and testing will tell.  It should be a fun.
> 

I've been fooling around with K3 inks on a 3800 useing various glossy papers and ABW so I look forward to your "totally different" effort.  I await your results with much anticipation.  I'm printing some dance photos taken with TriX some years ago.  

Harry

Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
>
>...will that also mean a return to gelatine/PVA coated papers to get 
> the optimal conditions for the "dye" inks?

I'm not sure what all the consequences might be.  

I'm following the http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com tests closely.  The Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique results suggest that type of coating might be something to consider.  

Given the predominance of pigments for serious printing, I'm guessing the paper R&D may have been geared in that direction at the expense of the dyes.  On the other hand, with the dry labs taking over the photofinishing, hopefully the heavy hitters will refocus on that market to get their longevity ratings up.  (The dry lab dyes are the source for this.  Even if the companies try to stop direct sales, imagine trying to police all of those photofinishers.)

While the mordants in the receptor coatings are going to be one issue, another issue that is more directly relevant to the dilution base is the coupling agent(s) that are most appropriate.  It looks like the glycol ethers (http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterature/dh_0032/0901b80380032bc8.pdf?filepath=oxysolvents/pdfs/noreg/110-00965.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc) may accomplish several functions in such a mix.  The ratio of a couple different types may allow adjusting several parameters, such as keeping the printer head moist, viscosity, cleaning, surface tension and coupling.

I have not give much thought to toning, but I believe dyes do not have the separation issues that we ran into with pigments.

At any rate, I'm not sure where this effort will lead.  The first thing is to start slow and just see how the black only dyes compare to Claria and the glossy pigments (like HP PK) that we have.  I have no doubt that the HP PK is more stable, but it sure would be nice to get rid of the bronzing for my cards and brochures.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Op 25-11-2010 17:56, Paul schreef:
> Ernst Dinkla<edinkla@...>  wrote:
>>
>> ...will that also mean a return to gelatine/PVA coated papers to
>> get the optimal conditions for the "dye" inks?
>
> I'm not sure what all the consequences might be.
>
> I'm following the http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com tests closely.
> The Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique results suggest that type
> of coating might be something to consider.
>
> Given the predominance of pigments for serious printing, I'm guessing
> the paper R&D may have been geared in that direction at the expense
> of the dyes.  On the other hand, with the dry labs taking over the
> photofinishing, hopefully the heavy hitters will refocus on that
> market to get their longevity ratings up.  (The dry lab dyes are the
> source for this.  Even if the companies try to stop direct sales,
> imagine trying to police all of those photofinishers.)
>
> While the mordants in the receptor coatings are going to be one
> issue, another issue that is more directly relevant to the dilution
> base is the coupling agent(s) that are most appropriate.  It looks
> like the glycol ethers
> (http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterature/dh_0032/0901b80380032bc8.pdf?filepath=oxysolvents/pdfs/noreg/110-00965.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc)
> may accomplish several functions in such a mix.  The ratio of a
> couple different types may allow adjusting several parameters, such
> as keeping the printer head moist, viscosity, cleaning, surface
> tension and coupling.
>
> I have not give much thought to toning, but I believe dyes do not
> have the separation issues that we ran into with pigments.
>
> At any rate, I'm not sure where this effort will lead.  The first
> thing is to start slow and just see how the black only dyes compare
> to Claria and the glossy pigments (like HP PK) that we have.  I have
> no doubt that the HP PK is more stable, but it sure would be nice to
> get rid of the bronzing for my cards and brochures.
>
> Paul www.PaulRoark.com

Like in more cases we must have watched the same developments. The dry
minilabs got a lot of attention on the Photokina 2008. I didn't check
them this time.

I was looking for the same bulk dye inks and smaller paper rolls but for 
color prints with a lower life expectancy and price than the larger 
pigment prints from my wide formats. I think you can not expect as wide 
a choice in media that the pigment ink printers have now. The minilab 
market is different.

The last Photokina showed another development, art papers for ecosolvent 
printers. The shops that print the cheap canvas with ecosolvent printers 
are now interested in that other niche. The paper suppliers 
euphemistically call them decorative art papers to spare the older 
customers the truth.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

That sounds interesting, I've just had an Epson R200 donated to me and all of the 3k workflows I've come across seemed to be pigment based so this could be a way of putting this printer to some use.

This is interesting to read: for about the last five years, my "main  
axe" for all my printing has been an HP Photosmart Pro 8750, using  
the stock Vivera dye carts, and (largely) sticking with HP's own  
Premium and Premium Plus papers (gloss and semi-gloss/satin). This  
has been terrific for both color and black-and-white printing,  
although compared to other printers I suppose it's a bit  
schizophrenic (9 inks, including one black and two grey channels, but  
split between three multi-ink carts). Once the ink settles, there are  
little to no visual artifacts (bronzing, gloss differential,  
metamerism), and no hissy-fits from the printer if left idle for a  
few weeks. I liked the thing so much that I searched for, and found,  
an identical model, barely used, and bought it to mothball as a  
spare. The only two catches I can think of with this setup are (1)  
archival qualities have only been tested (via WIR, for what it's  
worth) using both HP's inks and papers, and (2) while incredibly  
lightfast, the prints aren't waterfast. So far, I can deal with both  
of these matters. But the results don't lie: I think the prints are  
gorgeous, and I don't have to kill myself when creating an edition  
for sale or exhibition.

But I'll be very interested in Paul's findings on the dye front. More  
options are always better. I've sort of felt out in the wilderness  
for a while with my workflow, so this sounds potentially exciting.


- Barrett

Paul,

Which dye ink are you working with. I will say that the Epson last very well on pretty much all papers though the dmax on matte is not what you might expect. I have tested one of the advanced dye inks and it lasted decently on most papers as well as providing a dmax that was darker than could be accurately measured with my devices on Epson glossy paper and really good on other glossy papers.

"dfaprinting" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> Which dye ink are you working with. I will say that the Epson last very well on pretty much all papers though the dmax on matte is not what you might expect. 

The 2 machines of interest are the Fujifilm Frontier DL 400 line, which http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com has tests for, and the Noritsu D700 Series.  I personally suspect Fuji is behind all of this ink.  As we know from their photo film and paper products, this company really knows its dye chemistry.

> I have tested one of the advanced dye inks and it lasted decently on most papers as well as providing a dmax that was darker than could be accurately measured with my devices on Epson glossy paper and really good on other glossy papers.

Which one did you test?

The variability in testing is rather interesting.  I don't entirely understand all the variables, but Mark has made some references to this issue.

I've ordered a Noritsu black ink cart as a first test ($187/500 ml).  I'll print some test strips with it and with Claria black to see how they compare in terms of color and dmax.  I'll probably also do some of my own initial fade testing to see how they compare (or if they appear to the the exact same ink).  I'll also start working up an initial dilution base and, if I succeed to any extent, get a dilute test strip in the same test batch to see what impact that has.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Where did you get the Noritsu ink? They used to only sell it to registered Noritsu owners and I may be thinking of a different printer but I thought they used Epson tech and inks in their printers. Bulk Claria would be fantastic!

The best inks that I've tested came from http://www.rfijet.com/products.html and were the Evolution CKO set. It was not as fade resistant as Claria, but it was far better than most third party dye inks. The black was the darkest thing imaginable and RFI says they have reducers to thin the density out. They might even be able to be thinned with distilled water, not really sure what it would take but the MSDS sheets lists them as very low toxicity (I would need to see if I have any of those sheets to give specifics). I would still consider it a short term ink without additional overcoats or without the use of the swellable papers.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "dfaprinting" <dfaprinting@> wrote:
> >
> > Which dye ink are you working with. I will say that the Epson last very well on pretty much all papers though the dmax on matte is not what you might expect. 
> 
> The 2 machines of interest are the Fujifilm Frontier DL 400 line, which http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com has tests for, and the Noritsu D700 Series.  I personally suspect Fuji is behind all of this ink.  As we know from their photo film and paper products, this company really knows its dye chemistry.
> 
> > I have tested one of the advanced dye inks and it lasted decently on most papers as well as providing a dmax that was darker than could be accurately measured with my devices on Epson glossy paper and really good on other glossy papers.
> 
> Which one did you test?
> 
> The variability in testing is rather interesting.  I don't entirely understand all the variables, but Mark has made some references to this issue.
> 
> I've ordered a Noritsu black ink cart as a first test ($187/500 ml).  I'll print some test strips with it and with Claria black to see how they compare in terms of color and dmax.  I'll probably also do some of my own initial fade testing to see how they compare (or if they appear to the the exact same ink).  I'll also start working up an initial dilution base and, if I succeed to any extent, get a dilute test strip in the same test batch to see what impact that has.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"dfaprinting" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:

> Where did you get the Noritsu ink?

Protecting sources may be needed at this time.


> They used to only sell it to registered Noritsu owners ...

I wonder how they'll police those dry lab owners from re-selling? 


> I thought they used Epson tech and inks in their printers. Bulk Claria would be fantastic!

I agree.  It's good enough to be useful for a number of purposes.


Paul
wwww.PaulRoark.com

>... Noritsu ink? ... I thought they used Epson tech and inks in their printers. Bulk Claria would be fantastic!


They never say directly that it's Claria.  The official line is indicated below:


http://global.epson.com/newsroom/2008/news_20080421.htm
"TOKYO, Japan, April 21, 2008 –
Noritsu Koki Co., Ltd. ("Noritsu") and Seiko Epson Corporation ("Epson") have reached a basic agreement to establish a broad business alliance designed to further consolidate and develop their printing equipment businesses.
…
(2) Roles in the alliance
"Dry" minilabs and industrial printers
•	Noritsu will be primarily responsible for product design and production.
•	Epson will be primarily responsible for developing inkjet device technology, software, and inks."


http://www.noritsu.co.jp/english/news/20090213.html 
"The ink used in the D703 has an improved molecular structure so it is able to withstand light and ozone, thus producing prints that boast excellent image permanence.
 Inkjet technology was provided by Seiko Epson Corporation."



Fuji is part of the alliance also, from what I can tell.  They may own an equity stake in Epson, although I don't have a copy of the article that talked of that.  Recall that Fuji large format printers even have the same Epson model numbers on them.  Internet hearsay (for what little it may be worth) has Fujifilm reps saying the DL410 dye ink is "stangely similar to Epson Claria dye inks."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photographic_developer
"In March 2006, Noritsu and Fuji announced a strategic alliance. Noritsu now manufactures all of Fuji's photofinishing hardware."


The Noritsu D700 and D1005, as well as the Fujifilm Frontier DL410 "Dry" minilab systems are becoming ubiquitous.  Costco, Walmart, Sam's club, and hordes of smaller photo finishers are using them.  The supplies are also becoming available from lots of suppliers, not to mention the possibility of the photo finishers reselling.  

These supplies have even been offered on eBay for starting bids as low as $99 (for 500 ml)  They generally go unsold.  There must be no shortage of this ink.

This suggests to me that this is the new baseline for measuring what we do.  Costco, Walmart and the local corner drugstore are producing what www.noritsu.com claims are "archival prints" with this ink that must cost resellers less than $99/500 ml.  

I don't consider this advanced dye "archival" compared to 100% carbon or the OEM pigments, but much of the third party color pigments or inksets that use those could be in trouble.  Check your ink's performance on http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ .   Compare the color ink performance with Claria color, and compare the B&W performance with the Claria black only -- particularly if sprayed with a UV spray (which I assume would be similar to UV glass).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I've already done a seat of the pants window comparison with the Rosemere ink and Claria and one of the cheap third party inks too. On matte paper the cheap ink was faded in less than 2 days. The other ink held up fairly well to blue wool 4 and Claria showed little fading when the test stopped at BW4. I'll see if I can find the data, it used a Heidelberg 135 patch chart and Spectrolino/Spectroscan for measuring. It's an RGB chart through an RGB printer so I'm not sure how pure the black patch might be.

Now from the past I know Noritsu was using Epson pigment inks in their printers, so they may still be using it. Years ago several of us tried to buy the ink from any source and it was closely guarded as if national security depended on this ink. There was no way to get it regularly and the printshops that owned these printers could not sell it because of the company watching their supplies. Obviously Epson didn't want to let out bulk ink at prices that were so low compared to cartidges, and at $100 for 500ml they are still making large profits on the ink since it costs them pennies per liter (might be a slight exaggeration).

All in all Claria still seems to be the holy grail by which all other dye inks are compared. And sadly few companies seem to care about trying to knock them off the top.

Hi Paul,

I've been printing Claria BO in a 1400 using one of your old QTR Claria profiles with slight modification and linearized for the new metallic papers.  Prints on Proofline PhotoChrome (cheapest in this class and very good) are really exceptionally brilliant.  I think that they even look better than Kodak Endura which it is supposed to emulate.  SOP sells this paper.

I was hoping that Epson might release a Claria based large format printer, but it looks like that may never happen.  Your work with the advanced dye inks gives me hope that a large format solution may emerge.  Look forward to hearing more about your results,

Regards,
Carl

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> Now for something entirely different.
> 
> While I'm clearly an advocate of 100% carbon on natural (no OBA) cotton based paper for the most the most stable fine art images, I also appreciate a dramatic glossy B&W. 
> 
> So, my next effort is something totally different.
> 
> I believe I've found a source for bulk quantities of advanced dye similar to Epson Claria.  I'll be testing this first in a 1.5 pl printer using black only and perhaps a 3-K approach like the 1800 3-MK workflow.  I'm also researching the bases that might be needed to dilute the dye and make a full B&W, glossy advanced dye inkset that would be usable in most Epson printers.  Think big, artifact-free, super dramatic B&W.
> 
> If you've never seen a Claria black only image, do yourself a favor and get to the Rose-Lynn Fisher's reception at the Graig Krull gallery in Santa Monica, CA, December 4, 4 - 6.  I hope to be there.  Rose-Lynn's Bee exhibit is Claria black only and most impressive.  
> 
> See http://www.craigkrullgallery.com/Exhibition/next.html
> 
> Keep in mind that advanced dyes are, in my view, in the same class with the third party color pigments I've been using when it comes to image stability.  (Some would say they are better in all respects.)  Advanced dye with a UV spray may be similar to what one would expect from the third party blended carbon-color B&W inksets in terms of stability.  
> 
> Technology has improved significantly since the days of the 1270.  It's not in the league with carbon, but this just might be a very cool B&W medium for cards (my gallery brochures being a specific target) and most of what people want a B&W print for.  Time and testing will tell.  It should be a fun.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hi guys
It seems that the disadvantage of using dyes over pigments is the longjevity, but what are the main advantages?

Regards

Mark <markjoste@...> wrote:
>
>
> It seems that the disadvantage of using dyes over pigments is the longevity,


Yes, but what has changed with the Claria class dyes is that the categories now overlap.  Advanced dyes appear to be stronger than weak pigments.

> but what are the main advantages?

On glossy paper the dyes soak into as opposed to sit on top of the paper.  So, the artifacts like gloss differential and bronzing disappear.  The dmax can be higher than pigments also.  Dyes don't settle and should clog much less.  Blended dyes should not separate.  (I'll be testing this.)

I suspect that in a side-by-side comparison with a pigment based glossy image the Claria black only images would be selected as better by most viewers.  (This assumes a perfect printer than doesn't microband -- something a multi-ink workflow should take care of.)

My feeling is that pigments are best on matte papers and dyes are better on glossy paper.  But, this is early in my exploration.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Op 28-11-2010 5:29, Paul schreef:

> My feeling is that pigments are best on matte papers and dyes are better on glossy paper.  But, this is early in my exploration.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com


But when dye inks have to be used on matte papers it may be a good thing 
to explore the uncoated cotton papers again. With the Iris dye inks that 
proved to be more fade resistant than using the then new inkjet coated 
matte art papers. I also think that gelatine/PVA coated papers do not 
have to be glossy by definition. Getting a more or less waterproof print 
like pigment inks can deliver should also be explored. I think that a 
gelatine inkjet coating hardened after the print run could be a solution.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
>
>...when dye inks have to be used on matte papers 
> it may be a good thing to explore the uncoated cotton
> papers again. With the Iris dye inks that 
> proved to be more fade resistant than using the then 
> new inkjet coated matte art papers.

Was there ever a good explanation of why that was the case?

> I also think that gelatine/PVA coated papers do not 
> have to be glossy by definition. Getting a more or less 
> waterproof print like pigment inks can deliver should 
> also be explored. I think that a gelatine inkjet coating
> hardened after the print run could be a solution.

Is an appropriate paper available that has a gelatin coating, or are people going to have to coat their own papers?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>
> Is an appropriate paper available that has a gelatin coating, or are people
> going to have to coat their own papers?
>
>
HP premium plus satin photo paper is designed to be used with their DJ130
dye printer.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Op 28-11-2010 16:57, Paul schreef:
> Ernst Dinkla<edinkla@...>  wrote:
>>
>> ...when dye inks have to be used on matte papers
>> it may be a good thing to explore the uncoated cotton
>> papers again. With the Iris dye inks that
>> proved to be more fade resistant than using the then
>> new inkjet coated matte art papers.
>
> Was there ever a good explanation of why that was the case?

Possibly PH grades differed, buffered + coated papers not really 
suitable for the dyes used, the dye never reached the cellulose. The 
best place to find explanations for that result must be available in 
fabric printing. The Ciba Specialty  Chemicals division for example. 
Reactive dyes. Though part of that industry switched to pigments too 
because they could be used more universal on all fabrics.
Wilhelm's testing at that time didn't have ozone tests. Nevertheless gas 
fading was a known phenomenon in the textile industry. The washing 
machine and curtains hanging in sunlight are an environment some grades 
more aggressive than prints indoors framed behind glass.

http://www.pburch.net/dyeing/fiberreactive.shtml

John Nollendorffs might know of what is left of third party gelatine 
papers. His Lincoln inks were Ilford Archiva dye inks 
(Iris>ColorSpan>Encad) customised for the Epson 9000. Ilford always had 
a good link to Ciba of course. Olmec and Ilford had/have gelatine papers 
but not in matte versions I think.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

My old partner, Allen Maertz, created a multi tone set ten years ago, but nobody seemed interested in buying B&W dyes back then! In our south window testing, the Spectratone B&W dyes seemed indestructable, when printed on gelatin or polymer receptor inkjet papers.

The biggesst problem with dyes, was when the various colors co-mingled on the paper, causing what Wilhelm called "catalytic failure", causing one color to fail early. The purpose of the swellable polymer inkreceptor coatings was to isolate the individual droplets. But high ambient humidity levels after printing also could cause the printed dyes to migrate in the swellable polymer papers.

These papers are still available from Ilford--look for the "Classic" papers.

As to why the early microporous papers failed with the Iris Dyes, this could probably be explained by oxidation of the dyes by the greatly enhanced surface area of those papers. If you seal the surface of those papers after printing with dyes, with anything to seal the microporous surface, the prints had much enhanced life.

John Nollendorfs

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> Op 28-11-2010 16:57, Paul schreef:
> > Ernst Dinkla<edinkla@>  wrote:
> >>
> >> ...when dye inks have to be used on matte papers
> >> it may be a good thing to explore the uncoated cotton
> >> papers again. With the Iris dye inks that
> >> proved to be more fade resistant than using the then
> >> new inkjet coated matte art papers.
> >
> > Was there ever a good explanation of why that was the case?
> 
> Possibly PH grades differed, buffered + coated papers not really 
> suitable for the dyes used, the dye never reached the cellulose. The 
> best place to find explanations for that result must be available in 
> fabric printing. The Ciba Specialty  Chemicals division for example. 
> Reactive dyes. Though part of that industry switched to pigments too 
> because they could be used more universal on all fabrics.
> Wilhelm's testing at that time didn't have ozone tests. Nevertheless gas 
> fading was a known phenomenon in the textile industry. The washing 
> machine and curtains hanging in sunlight are an environment some grades 
> more aggressive than prints indoors framed behind glass.
> 
> http://www.pburch.net/dyeing/fiberreactive.shtml
> 
> John Nollendorffs might know of what is left of third party gelatine 
> papers. His Lincoln inks were Ilford Archiva dye inks 
> (Iris>ColorSpan>Encad) customised for the Epson 9000. Ilford always had 
> a good link to Ciba of course. Olmec and Ilford had/have gelatine papers 
> but not in matte versions I think.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jrnolly@...> wrote:
 
> These papers are still available from Ilford--look for the "Classic" papers.
> 
I used the Ilford Classic for several years with the Lyson QuadBlack (dye) inks in an Epson 1160 and was very pleased with the results. Prints on my wall still look new after 5+ years. Unfortunately it seems that Ilford have now discontinued these papers except in A4.

Although I was very pleased with my dye-based B&W they did suffer from some metamerism. I thought that this was a generic problem for dyes because black dyes begin to transmit in the deep red and become almost transparent in the infrared. This was certainly true of the Lyson inks which had a slight red cast in low-temperature tungsten illumination. Are the dyes being talked about here immune to this problem?

Op 29-11-2010 14:57, Roger Barrett schreef:
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> "John"<jrnolly@...>  wrote:
>
>> These papers are still available from Ilford--look for the
>> "Classic" papers.
>>
> I used the Ilford Classic for several years with the Lyson QuadBlack
> (dye) inks in an Epson 1160 and was very pleased with the results.
> Prints on my wall still look new after 5+ years. Unfortunately it
> seems that Ilford have now discontinued these papers except in A4.
>
> Although I was very pleased with my dye-based B&W they did suffer
> from some metamerism. I thought that this was a generic problem for
> dyes because black dyes begin to transmit in the deep red and become
> almost transparent in the infrared. This was certainly true of the
> Lyson inks which had a slight red cast in low-temperature tungsten
> illumination. Are the dyes being talked about here immune to this
> problem?

The Lyson dye inks had that problem. The Small Gamut and Lysonic color
inks too. It isn't dye related in my opinion, more Lyson related.

For color inksets it is more difficult to create prints that keep color
constancy with different lightsources if the inkset is based on CMYK
only or CcMmYK and no extra grey inks aboard that can substitute
composite greys (CMY greys) with grey ink mixes. Dye inkjet printers are
usually limited to 4 or 6 inks (exceptions exist) so have a disadvantage
there. That Lyson couldn't get it right with the Quad and Small Gamut
dye inks is another story.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Yes i am still coding my little alternative process/B&W converter program.
$15 during the month of December. Version 2.2.2 has been released.
What it is and what it does.
It is a windows program that will work under Mac if you have parallel or something similar.
It will create curves automatically using a scanner. No more manual entry. You can still use a densitometer.
It has its own built-in B&W converter. I have a tutorial video on my web site to explain on how to create a good black and white image from a color photo.
I mainly use Silver and film. 
My process is to shoot film with kodak ektar 100.
I have it processed by Mpix because they return to me  a very clean neg. (not like WM !!)
I scan the whole neg with my Sony scanner and I get beautiful images.
I import the images into POdnc's catalog. I load the converter and create stunning B&W images.
With the podnc process, I generate an inkjet print from my 2200 using Kirkland paper.
I contact print this paper with either Ilford FB or RC paper under my enlarger. I process the images in my bathtub...
And I get a stunning image !!! that will last a very long time.
 
The program will give you feedback will give you advice.
You should get a perfect print right away.
 
The cons....
I am not a documentation writer. The best way to find out a lot of things about the program is to use the forum.
 
I hope this post is not too much off topic..
Pierre-Olivier
 
http://www.PierreOlivierTavernier.com
 
 
  		 	   		  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just a reminder for those in the Los Angeles area who might be interested in seeing samples of Claria black only printing. The reception for Rose-Lynn Fisher and her Bee images is at the Craig Krull gallery is this afternoon, 4 - 6.  

See http://www.craigkrullgallery.com/Exhibition/Current.html

Although the materials have not arrived, I appear to have found sources (in reasonable quantities -- a problem with uncommon chemicals) for all that is needed for this advanced dye approach.  Hopefully next week I'll be able to start testing.

Hope to see some of you at the Craig Krull gallery this afternoon.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

The Noritsu black 500 ml cart looks and acts just like a giant Epson 7800 cart.  It's made by Epson.  The same modified bottom fill adapter I use for the Epson carts works just fine on the Noritsu cart.  
See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Modified-Bottom-Fill-Adapter.pdf

I profiled Epson Premium Glossy paper, as well as some others, with Claria black loaded into the Cyan position of my 1400. (Eboni-6 is in the rest of the positions.)  Later I removed the Claria and put Noritsu K into the C position and used the Claria profile to print on some Premium Glossy paper.  They look very similar.  The Claria profile was probably as close as one could expect when comparing 2 different dye batches.

A graph of the Lab A and B for the 2 inks is posted at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Claria-Noritsu-PremGloss.jpg

You can adjust for the spectro drift by looking at the paper white readings, which ought to be identical.

My initial reaction is that these are just different batches of the same ink.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

When I've profiled Claria black only in a printer with the full set of color inks, I've added some LM to offset the slight drop in Lab A that usually is characteristic of Claria K's tones.

A similar altering of the Lab A distribution can be accomplished by simply adding a little Claria M from a small Claria cart.  

The graph at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Graph-4pc-M.jpg shows the Lab A and B distributions for the 100% K Black Only (BO), as well as the tonal distribution for Noritsu K with 4% Claria M added to the mix.

Looking at the actual test strips, I can see the difference between the BO and toned versions, but I'm not sure it makes enough difference to bother with.  Toning like this is an option, however.  I don't think dyes will separate or settle at all.

Note that I'm looking at this for gloss paper.  Matte papers may need toning, to the extent of about 10% M to counteract Claria K's tones.  I do not intend to go there.  

The Noritsu K inkset I'm working on is aimed at glossy photos and brochures, as well as general, all purpose printing if the dilution works.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Interesting stuff!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I have a 30% dilution of the Noritsu K running in my 1400. ...

> The dilute dye shows more of the green characteristic.  


5% Magenta (Claria) mixed with the Noritsu K seems to give a rather straight Lab A for both black only and the 30% dilution when Epson Premium Glossy Photo Paprer is used.  
See  http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/NoritsuK-30pcK-5pcM-PGPP.jpg

However, other papers may need more.  10% M (with 90% K) diluted 30% still has some tendency to a reduced Lab A on Red River Ultra Pro Satin and Epson Archival Matte (yep, still have some old EAM).  But, these prints look very good.  I suspect they are typical.  
See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/NoritsuK-30pc-10pcM-EAM-RR-UP.jpg

10% M on PGPP looks rather nice also, with more of a selenium hue and a bit warmer.  See 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/NoritsuK-30pc-10pcM-v-0pcM-PGPP.jpg

It may be for a general mix the 10% M is the best compromise.

Then again, the need for different mixes for different papers is what led to the variable tone approach and toners -- lots of options.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I've placed an incomplete list of suppliers for the Noritsu ink at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Noritsu-suppliers.pdf

I've used the first 2.

The 1400 tests have been so good I'm going to set up an easy workflow on an Epson WorkForce 30 -- a $60 printer that is supposed to print very quickly in text mode.  This will ultimately go to one of my daughters at college for a long term beta test.  The very fast text printing is needed, and while the C88 with dilute Eboni has been very reliable with one daughter, a similar C88 with dilute glossy carbon has not been so reliable.  The dye ink should avoid these problems.  We'll see.

I'll also be able to judge the effects of dilutions on 3 pl printers with the WorkForce 30.  Before it goes to college I'll test more dilutions and toning.

So far, the 30% dilution of Noritsu PK + 10% Claria M has been able to make excellent prints on all glossy papers.  On most matte papers it's too green.  However, the Red River Premium Matte looks excellent with it, and has a dmax of 1.8 +.  

H. Photo Rag has the best dmax with Noritsu K at just over 2.0.  It'll need more magenta to tame the green tone, however. 

I'll continue to use the 1400 to experiment with various dilute mixes.  However, for easy control of tone and no need to mix anything, Noritsu K in one cart and a standard Claria M for toning it may make the most sense for most who want to explore this path on a 1400 and are comfortable using QTR.  The concentrated inks should be smooth enough for most on 1.5 pl printers without the need for any dilute positions.

I think it also makes some sense to find buying groups to split the large 500 ml carts for those who are just occasional users. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Wish it was a 6 color printer, getting the light magenta and light cyan would be nice for things like my RX680. I didn't notice the green cast from the Claria, but they may have also been mixing it in the firmware.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> I've placed an incomplete list of suppliers for the Noritsu ink at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Noritsu-suppliers.pdf
> 
> I've used the first 2.
> 
> The 1400 tests have been so good I'm going to set up an easy workflow on an Epson WorkForce 30 -- a $60 printer that is supposed to print very quickly in text mode.  This will ultimately go to one of my daughters at college for a long term beta test.  The very fast text printing is needed, and while the C88 with dilute Eboni has been very reliable with one daughter, a similar C88 with dilute glossy carbon has not been so reliable.  The dye ink should avoid these problems.  We'll see.
> 
> I'll also be able to judge the effects of dilutions on 3 pl printers with the WorkForce 30.  Before it goes to college I'll test more dilutions and toning.
> 
> So far, the 30% dilution of Noritsu PK + 10% Claria M has been able to make excellent prints on all glossy papers.  On most matte papers it's too green.  However, the Red River Premium Matte looks excellent with it, and has a dmax of 1.8 +.  
> 
> H. Photo Rag has the best dmax with Noritsu K at just over 2.0.  It'll need more magenta to tame the green tone, however. 
> 
> I'll continue to use the 1400 to experiment with various dilute mixes.  However, for easy control of tone and no need to mix anything, Noritsu K in one cart and a standard Claria M for toning it may make the most sense for most who want to explore this path on a 1400 and are comfortable using QTR.  The concentrated inks should be smooth enough for most on 1.5 pl printers without the need for any dilute positions.
> 
> I think it also makes some sense to find buying groups to split the large 500 ml carts for those who are just occasional users. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

> Wish it was a 6 color printer, getting the light magenta and light cyan would be nice ...

As an old antitrust enforcer and economics guy, it's interesting to speculate as to how the Epson-Noritsu-Fujifilm "alliance" is and will play the marketing game here.  We're such a tiny niche that we're probably irrelevant as individuals, but in the bigger picture they have some interesting issues.

First, companies can usually maximize their profits and revenues if they can "skim" the demand curve -- that is, sell to different segments of the market at different prices.  To do this they have to separate markets.  The 4 v. 6 inks might be part of that.  Note that the Epson WorkForce printers have only dense CMY inks, but then 2 blacks.  The WorkForce 40 is a 2 picoliter printer and can probably do a rather good job of printing without light inks.  Still, the need to buy very large carts and hand load probably will stop many from tapping the dry lab supply market.  Forming small local buying groups is one way to overcome the mere initial cost issues.  There are not that many B&W printers out there, but there are a lot of local camera clubs.

Second, and somewhat related, the Noritsu carts are almost probably the subject of a vertical price fix.  All the prices are identical -- which does NOT prove a price fix.  Under U.S. antitrust law vertical price fixing is now legal in most circumstances.  However, if there is a horizontal aspect to the agreement, it can become illegal.  So, combine the possible vertical price fix with the fact that there is clearly a horizontal "alliance" (their term) of competing companies, and things could get interesting.   

So, this game is interesting to me on several levels.  Note that I am not alleging any illegal activity here, nor to I want to see any problems for Epson and these other fine companies.  They've brought us great machines and materials.  I hope they see us as an interesting little side show.  I suspect if they think about it, they'll realize that they're making more sales (I've purchased a printer and inks) and perhaps taking sales away from competitors sufficiently to offset and of their own sales at higher prices.  

At any rate, we have some interesting new materials to work with, and at the moment, for me, Epson seems to have kicked the HP PK out of my 1400 (but not the Eboni-6).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, are you going to submit some dye prints to Aardenburg?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If I could buy a desktop printer that used these carts, and they would sell them to me at the same price, I would buy Epson inks. Since they feel they need to inflate the price of the ink by as much as they do for the consumers, then I will continue to buy third party inks and Epson gets nothing. If only this logic was allowed to go through the Epson management.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> 
> > Wish it was a 6 color printer, getting the light magenta and light cyan would be nice ...
> 
> As an old antitrust enforcer and economics guy, it's interesting to speculate as to how the Epson-Noritsu-Fujifilm "alliance" is and will play the marketing game here.  We're such a tiny niche that we're probably irrelevant as individuals, but in the bigger picture they have some interesting issues.
> 
> First, companies can usually maximize their profits and revenues if they can "skim" the demand curve -- that is, sell to different segments of the market at different prices.  To do this they have to separate markets.  The 4 v. 6 inks might be part of that.  Note that the Epson WorkForce printers have only dense CMY inks, but then 2 blacks.  The WorkForce 40 is a 2 picoliter printer and can probably do a rather good job of printing without light inks.  Still, the need to buy very large carts and hand load probably will stop many from tapping the dry lab supply market.  Forming small local buying groups is one way to overcome the mere initial cost issues.  There are not that many B&W printers out there, but there are a lot of local camera clubs.
> 
> Second, and somewhat related, the Noritsu carts are almost probably the subject of a vertical price fix.  All the prices are identical -- which does NOT prove a price fix.  Under U.S. antitrust law vertical price fixing is now legal in most circumstances.  However, if there is a horizontal aspect to the agreement, it can become illegal.  So, combine the possible vertical price fix with the fact that there is clearly a horizontal "alliance" (their term) of competing companies, and things could get interesting.   
> 
> So, this game is interesting to me on several levels.  Note that I am not alleging any illegal activity here, nor to I want to see any problems for Epson and these other fine companies.  They've brought us great machines and materials.  I hope they see us as an interesting little side show.  I suspect if they think about it, they'll realize that they're making more sales (I've purchased a printer and inks) and perhaps taking sales away from competitors sufficiently to offset and of their own sales at higher prices.  
> 
> At any rate, we have some interesting new materials to work with, and at the moment, for me, Epson seems to have kicked the HP PK out of my 1400 (but not the Eboni-6).
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:

> Paul, are you going to submit some dye prints to Aardenburg?

It would be great if Mark could justify testing these.  I'm not sure what criteria he's using.  The user mixing of the dilute ink might eliminate this from consideration.  

In 1.5 pl machines the K & M would be commercially available and can be used full strength.  But users would need to be put the inks into a CIS or carts.  I'm not sure if this meets his criteria for availability.


With respect to dilute inks, I've used an Epson driver workflow with an ICC made with Create ICC-RGB to make what I see as excellent glossy prints, using a 1400 setup with the dyes in the C and Lc positions.  The Noritsu K is in the C position.  In the LC position is an "LK" (using the usual 30% dense ink to 70% clear base) made of 90% Noritsu K and 10% Claria M. 

See Noritsu-K-30M10-PGPP-icc.pdf for graphs of the image tone and Lab L.

The 10% M blend prints many glossy papers with good tones.  In addition to the Epson Premium line, Red River has some outstanding coatings.  The Artic Polar Gloss (using a QTR profile for PGPP) just glows.  

The 10% M blend prints too green on most matte papers, with one notable exception.  Red River Premium Matte paper makes top notch cool tone, high impact (dmax 1.8+) prints with QTR.  (I have not tested the Epson driver with matte papers yet.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"dfaprinting" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> If I could buy a desktop printer that used these carts, and they would sell them to me at the same price, I would buy Epson inks. ...

Epson WorkForce 40 (2 pl), CIS tubes plugged straight into Noritsu carts gives a consumer version of the dry lab color printers with the  inks at a wholesale price that is the same as what the large market of commercial labs pays.  (Some assembly required, but no mixing required, and such a CIS could be made fairly easily.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> "dfaprinting" <dfaprinting@> wrote:
> >
> > If I could buy a desktop printer that used these carts, and they would sell them to me at the same price, I would buy Epson inks. ...
> 
> Epson WorkForce 40 (2 pl), CIS tubes plugged straight into Noritsu carts gives a consumer version of the dry lab color printers with the  ?inks at a wholesale price that is the same as what the large market of commercial labs pays.  (Some assembly required, but no mixing required, >and such a CIS could be made fairly easily.)
> 
> Paul

Paul, I have a 1400 just sitting there, never put any ink thru it.  I use a 3800 for my B/W photo printing.  I don't have room to set up a CIS system so I'm looking forward to B/W dye cartridges for that 1400.  Any idea if and when these might be available?  And from whom?  Thanks!   

Harry  

PS  I'm kinda afraid to put pigment thru them little holes! <g>

"HarryB" <hrblaine@...> wrote:
>

> I have a 1400 just sitting there, ...
> I'm looking forward to B/W dye cartridges for that 1400.  
> Any idea if and when these might be available?  
> And from whom?  Thanks!   
> ...
> I'm kinda afraid to put pigment thru them little holes! <g>
> 

First, don't be afraid  of pigments in a 1400.  Many of us have had very good luck with the 1400 and pigment ink.  Mine has and will remain mostly an Eboni-6 printer.  There is  virtually never a clog.  

Second, I'm not sure if any company is going to pick up the advanced dye ball.  I'm going to use it for several specific  uses:  gallery brochures, cards, and (hopefully) maintenance free college printer.  I'll set up and profile my 1400 with 2 positions of dye -- K & "LK (neutralized) in the C and LC positions.  That will take care of my brochure and card printing for a while.  The WorkForce 30 will be the college printer, using an "easy" setup with only a single dilution in all 3 color spots.  When my old Epson 260 finally gives up, I might go to a WorkForce printer there also -- probably the 40 -- with an "easy" B&W setup and also color carts on the side when I need them.

I suspect the advanced dye setup makes most sense for those  who can share  the cost of  the 500 ml carts and also are adept enough  at this  to mix their own base. 

I think there are actually a lot of markets where this advanced  dye may be the best.  Consider the rub-off problem of books printed  with pigments.  I suspect the dyes can solve this problem.  Wilhelm rates Claria dyes are over 200 years of dark storage. 

At any rate, I'm not at all sure there will be a supplier eager to pick up this effort.  It may be a DIY approach.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> 
> First, don't be afraid  of pigments in a 1400.  Many of us have had very good luck with the 1400 and pigment ink.  Mine has and will remain mostly an Eboni-6 printer.  There is  virtually never a clog.  
> 

So, EB6 or UT 14?  Those are the choices, right?  

Thanks, Paul, 

Harry

"HarryB" <hrblaine@...> wrote:


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > First, don't be afraid  of pigments in a 1400. ... 
 
> So, EB6 or UT 14?  Those are the choices, right?  

Those are the MIS choices.  Jon Cone also has some inksets for  the 1400, I believe.  And, of  course, the field is wide open to those  who do their own.  

I currently have 4 Eboni-based inks for matte fine art and 2 Noritsu based inks for glossy printing -- brochures and cards.  With QTR more than a single B&W inkset can be used, and the 1400 is good enough to do very well with less than a full hextone.  On the other hand, while the single black only was fine for the small images on my current brochure, I did not find it good enough for larger prints or images with smooth skies.  The addition of the single lighter, dilute Noritsu K + M does bring the quality up to what I need for those purposes.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hey thanks Paul for the mention. 

One of the best selling Piezography systems of all time is Piezography Special Edition for the Epson 1400. We still sell 40 or 50 SPED systems a month for this printer. Not as many as in the first 2 years of its release. But, it's a very tenacious platform - probably because it's relatively inexpensive and it's 13" wide.

Recently my Carbon Sepia K6 has taken off on it. Probably thanks to Paul, because a lot of new users want to start off on carbon and Paul talks a lot about pure carbon. Carbon Sepia K6 has been around since 2005, but suddenly this year it took off.

Pigment is not a problem with the 1400 printer. The print heads are very similar to the Epson pigment printers. Piezography pigment is encapsulated like Epson Ultrachrome pigment - just with a different exterior material. So Piezography pigment inks present no clogs and no issues even though it has a tiny jet orifice size. 

The 1400's tiny drop size makes six dilutions of ink look as good as seven dilutions on the more expensive x800 and x880 printers. You are not really giving up much with the 1400 in comparison to Piezography on a 3880 for example.

If anyone interested, 1400 systems here:
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.15/category.6522/.f

Because all of the k6 ink sets can be intermixed, a lot of 1400 customers are buying extra cartridge sets and additional bottles of ink to formulate their own tone. As long as you only mix similar shades together you can experiment as much as you want. In other words you can mix any shade 3 with any other shade 3 in any proportion and still use my K6 curves in QuadTone RIP. You would not want to mix some shade 2 and a little shade 4 together - because then the QTR curves would not work. But if you want to temper the warmth of carbon a bit with Selenium into the darker shades - mix to your heart's content - just keeping the similar shade rule between the different ink tones.

Quite a few of my most experimental large format customers buy the 1400 and use it as a test printer to see what ink mixing looks like before they commit their large format printer to a custom blend.

Really the only thing we do not support on this printer is glossy printing. For Piezography Glossy you need a printer with more ink positions. But, for fine art matte papers - this printer is hard to beat. We often do the Special Edition production at Cone Editions on 1400s when the customer only needs small prints. You can't visually tell the difference between it and the Special Edition K7 running on a 7880. The 1400 is probably the Piezography ink bargain printer of all time.


Jon Cone
Piezography

 
 




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "HarryB" <hrblaine@> wrote:
> 
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > First, don't be afraid  of pigments in a 1400. ... 
>  
> > So, EB6 or UT 14?  Those are the choices, right?  
> 
> Those are the MIS choices.  Jon Cone also has some inksets for  the 1400, I believe.  And, of  course, the field is wide open to those  who do their own.  
> 
> I currently have 4 Eboni-based inks for matte fine art and 2 Noritsu based inks for glossy printing -- brochures and cards.  With QTR more than a single B&W inkset can be used, and the 1400 is good enough to do very well with less than a full hextone.  On the other hand, while the single black only was fine for the small images on my current brochure, I did not find it good enough for larger prints or images with smooth skies.  The addition of the single lighter, dilute Noritsu K + M does bring the quality up to what I need for those purposes.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "piezobw" <jon@...> wrote:
>
>> Really the only thing we do not support on this printer is glossy printing. For Piezography Glossy you need a printer with more ink positions.  

Ahh, therein lies the rub.  What I want to print are scanned photos (well, negatives really) of dancers, taken long ago on Tri X.  And I want the prints to look as much like the original wet prints as possible but I want to print them myself.  So I think that I must use glossy paper, as Matte just doesn't replicate the wet print look to my eye.  

Any suggestions would be welcomed!  Just don't tell me that if I want them to look like wet prints, go and buy wet prints.  <g>  

Thanks, 

Harry

Op 16-12-2010 20:37, Paul schreef:

> I think there are actually a lot of markets where this advanced  dye
> may be the best.  Consider the rub-off problem of books printed  with
> pigments.  I suspect the dyes can solve this problem.  Wilhelm rates
> Claria dyes are over 200 years of dark storage.

While the rub off certainly could be less an issue with Claria, I wonder 
whether there are dual sided papers that will create the same conditions 
for the inks that they give equivalent Wilhelm ratings.  Dye inks are 
still not as waterproof as pigment inks on suitable coatings. What did 
you have in mind; matte coated papers, uncoated matte papers, satin 
coated papers? With dye inks the last two performed best on 
fading/archival tests.

Some years ago we shared a suspicion that Claria is somewhere in between 
dye and pigment if the colorants are considered. Has that changed for 
you? Not that it matters if it prints like dye ink, behaves like dye 
ink, looks like dye ink.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

"HarryB" <hrblaine@...> wrote:
>
> ...I think that I must use glossy paper, ...

You're in the right thread.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
>
> Op 16-12-2010 20:37, Paul schreef:
> 
> > ... markets [for] this advanced dye ...
> >  Consider the rub-off problem of books printed  with
> > pigments. ...


 
> ... What did you have in mind; matte coated papers, 
> uncoated matte papers, satin coated papers? With dye 
> inks the last two performed best on fading/archival tests.


I'm not sure.  So far I have not found an uncoated paper that prints with a very good dmax.  A thin, uncoated paper might be ideal.

> Some years ago we shared a suspicion that Claria is somewhere 
> in between dye and pigment if the colorants are considered. 
> Has that changed for you? 

No.  The color dye molecules look like little dye stacks -- to the extent the companies have hinted at their structure.  But, they do appear to be in solution.  

So far, black with the single magenta -- mixed or as a toner -- seems to be a fairly good solution.  It's interesting to note that the Claria black shifts to toward magenta as it fades.  So, the addition of the magenta may be a good counter-shift strategy also.  

One open issue is whether to add some yellow.  When profiling with a Claria inkset, I found a few papers needed yellow.  There is a secondary Claria black fade shift to yellow that might be offset by the addition of a bit of yellow to the mix.  

Working against the addition to the yellow is the complexity and cost.  The yellow shift is small enough that I'm not worried about it for the uses I anticipate, and the main real world hurdle is the cost of the large carts.  I think spreading the cost via buying groups makes sense, but even there, the black is the main one that'll be used.  A single 1400 user, of course, could just buy Claria carts for the toners.  With a black cart, and dye base, and one Claria LM 1400 cart, it appears to far that a very nice inkset can be made for a very reasonable total price.

I wonder if Noritsu (or Epson) would have any interest or ability to stop a Noritsu dealer from having a confidential arrangement with a third party B&W ink seller to supply the carts at other than the $187 price.  If the carts could be obtained for closer to their cost, which is probably half the selling price, I wonder if there is commercial viability for B&W system? 

Anyway, I'll continue to report my progress and experience with these new-to-us materials.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> "HarryB" <hrblaine@> wrote:
> >
> > ...I think that I must use glossy paper, ...
> 
> You're in the right thread.  
> 

Well. I sure hope so!  For glossy printing, I thot you (Paul) said that the UT 14 ink set used glop in the Y position but I don't see that.  What am I missing? 

Thanks!  

Harry

"HarryB" <hrblaine@...> wrote:

> ... 
>  For glossy printing, I thot you (Paul) said that the UT 14 ink set used glop in the Y position but I don't see that.  

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf

On Page 1 I set out the ink positions.  Y = Glop.

The UT14 does a very nice job with many glossy papers. I can be a very good place for a person to start.  

I usually move on fairly quickly, however.  It's what I do.  I suppose how long I stay with one inkset tells you what I like.  The Eboni-based inksets for  matte prints is where my fine art printing has sat for some time.  

I'm not, however, thrilled with glossy pigments.  The advanced dyes look interesting, the mini-labs' move into "dry lab" printing using these materials appears to have opened up the supplies, and I'm exploring them. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> "HarryB" <hrblaine@> wrote:
> 
> > ... 
> >  For glossy printing, I thot you (Paul) said that the UT 14 ink set used glop in the Y position but I don't see that.  
> 
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf
> 
> On Page 1 I set out the ink positions.  Y = Glop.
> 
Yes, that was what I was referring to but the UT 14 inkset says this : 

"EPSON 1400 COMPATIBLE T0794 YELLOW POSITION CARTRIDGE WITH AUTO RESET CHIP AND EB6 INK"  

That's what I meant when I said "What am I missing?"  EB6 in the Y position, not glop.  

Thanks Paul!  

Harry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "HarryB" <hrblaine@...> wrote:
>
> 
> > 
> > See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf
> > 
> > On Page 1 I set out the ink positions.  Y = Glop.
> > 
...
> "EPSON 1400 COMPATIBLE T0794 YELLOW POSITION CARTRIDGE WITH AUTO RESET CHIP AND EB6 INK" 

Must be the wrong URL.

See http://www.inksupply.com/ut14_black_and_white.cfm

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> 
> That's what I meant when I said "What am I missing?"  EB6 in the Y position, not glop.  
> 
> Thanks Paul!  
> 
> Harry
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> 
> > "EPSON 1400 COMPATIBLE T0794 YELLOW POSITION CARTRIDGE WITH AUTO RESET CHIP AND EB6 INK" 
> 
> Must be the wrong URL.
> 
> See http://www.inksupply.com/ut14_black_and_white.cfm

Paul, I see your URL and raise you with this one: 

http://www.inksupply.com/inkjet_cartridges.cfm?search_getmodel=512 

Just scroll down.  

Harry 
just kidding around :-)

"HarryB" <hrblaine@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> > ...
> > See http://www.inksupply.com/ut14_black_and_white.cfm


> Paul, I see your URL and raise you with this one: 
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/inkjet_cartridges.cfm?search_getmodel=512 
> 

"EPSON 1400 COMPATIBLE T0794 YELLOW POSITION CARTRIDGE WITH AUTO RESET CHIP AND UT14 INK
More Info
Epson 1400 Compatible T0794 Yellow Position Cartridge With Auto Reset Chip And UT14 Ink"

The MIS web page can be a mysterious place.  Just be sure you know what you're getting and understand that UT14 is not Eb6 or the dyes I'm currently experimenting with.

This -- http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Inkset-list.html --
is my list of MIS inksets I've been involved with.

The inksets and things I'm involved with most recently are on my main B&W Information page:  http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/ 

Be clear that I'm not MIS.  We're independent of each other.  Sometimes we have common interests that result in a commercially viable inkset that they sell.  Sometimes not.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Two things arrived today -- the Noritsu Magenta cart and the Epson WorkForce 30.

As expected, the Noritsu M in a draw down test looks just like the Claria M.  Actually there is a slight difference.  While the Lab L and A are identical to 2 digits, the Lab B of my Claria sample (rather old) is about 1.5 units higher than that of the Noritsu.  I think they are just different batches of the same thing.

The WorkForce 30 is a cheap and very fast printer destined for a college student.  I don't recommend it for serious printing with this dye inkset.  However, the single midtone ink made with 16% (87% Noritsu K, 13% Claria M) and 84% clear base prints very nicely toned glossy prints on more than half of the papers I've tested.  The bad news for glossy printing is that the glossy paper types in the driver have rather weak dmaxs -- 1.6 - 1.7.  If the matte paper types are used the ink load is a bit too high, causing some roughness in the midtones and blocking of the shadows, which can be fixed with an appropriate ICC (and embedded curve).  But, the ink limits of the driver are clearly not what we'd want for serious printing.

On UPPM (EEM) the Lab A and B are virtually flat across the density range.  The bad news for UPPM/EEM is that the dmax is a bit weak.  H. Photo Rag is a bit green with a huge 1.9 dmas.  Red River Premium Matte is just about perfect, with a 1.8+ dmax.

So, it's a cheap, fast printer that might be great with the Durabrite inks, but it's not a good printer for these dyes.  I'll use it for a long term test anyway, since it's intended as a text printer.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> 
> The MIS web page can be a mysterious place.  

LOL  That was my unstated point.  <g>  

>Just be sure you know what you're getting and understand that UT14 is >not Eb6 or the dyes I'm currently experimenting with.

Yep, I got that.  And I understand your relationship with MIS.  I just hope that your recent experiments result in some MIS carts!  

I do most of my B/W glossy printing on an Epson 3800 and the results look OK to me.  I printed one B/W on Dell glossy paper on my Canon i9000 and I love it but I can't figure out why it looks so good to me.  One thing, it's a really B/W photo (scanned neg. really) of a dancer in a black leotard), no gray of any sort or at least not much.  And remember, I'm aiming for that "wet" look. <g>    

Harry

"HarryB" <hrblaine@...> wrote:
>
> 
> ...I just hope that your recent experiments result in some MIS carts!  


I haven't even discussed the project with them.  In the past Bob Zeiss didn't like the idea of using OEM inputs.  The IS inputs, purchased in volume, are, no doubt, much cheaper.  I have no idea what the new owners think of all of this and B&W in general.  It's really a bottom line decision for them or any business.  


> ... I'm aiming for that "wet" look. <g> 

Yes, add simple, cheap and artifact free.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
>  It's really a bottom line decision for them or any business.  
> 

Well, excepting pro sports teams with billionaire owners!  But you're probably right, since that's no business!  <g> 

Harry 
the guy who dies with the bigest toy wins

Paul,

When did the change of ownership you mention take place?

Gary Wagner

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 9:10 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Advanced dye for B&W

 

  

"HarryB" <hrblaine@...> wrote:
>
> 
> ...I just hope that your recent experiments result in some MIS carts! 

I haven't even discussed the project with them. In the past Bob Zeiss didn't
like the idea of using OEM inputs. The IS inputs, purchased in volume, are,
no doubt, much cheaper. I have no idea what the new owners think of all of
this and B&W in general. It's really a bottom line decision for them or any
business. 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Gary " <gary@...> wrote:
>
 
> When did the change of ownership you mention take place?
> 

The official change happened in September.  Bob Zeiss has been largely retired for some time, but he did keep an eye on things.  Now Justin and Rob own the company, and Bob is under a non-compete clause. Justin and Rob ran the show for some time on a day-to-day basis.  So, I don't expect major changes.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Do you talk with these people much? 

 

Are they planning any new black and white products for the future?

 

I have gone back to Eboni 6 on my 1400 with Epson HPN and have been getting
excellent results. 

Thanks,

Gary

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 9:59 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Advanced dye for B&W

 

  

"Gary " <gary@...> wrote:
>

> When did the change of ownership you mention take place?
> 

The official change happened in September. Bob Zeiss has been largely
retired for some time, but he did keep an eye on things. Now Justin and Rob
own the company, and Bob is under a non-compete clause. Justin and Rob ran
the show for some time on a day-to-day basis. So, I don't expect major
changes. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Paul,

  I have been working at a clear base for dye ink recently, although for a different reason than yours. In fact, I am targeting my research to maximum longevity of the print (rather than high D-max) and I am attempting to develop an inkjet based platinum print system that requires a base similar to that for dye ink. this is in order to dilute the platinum chemicals. After many attempts, I come up with three good clear bases:

1) 23% mono-ethylene Glycol - 13% Isopropilyc Alcohol - 64% water
2) 21% mono-ethylene Glycol - 12% Isopropilyc Alcohol - 8% Windex - 59% water 
3) 21% mono-ethylene Glycol - 12% Isopropilyc Alcohol - 8% Simple green - 59% water 

Bases 2) and 3) where only meant to check if some sort of surfactant would make any difference to the simpler base. There are none.
I diluted HP 7450 inks with the bases and tested the diluted inks in the same printer. The reason for using HP thermal heads is that platinum compounds are too expensive to be used in the very wasty Epson printing systems, while HP is far more conservative in ink usage. 

To be honest, I don't fully understand the rational behind so much attention toward dye inks by this community. If you want to produce handout or flyers to give out to potential clients, it seems a very expensive way to make those. JJust the ink cost is more than twice as much as MIS Eboni, for example. If you want to give out stunning samples of your art, those will look very different from the large size (pigment based, I assume) prints you will sell and your client would be disappointed comparing the latter with the former.

I cannot even imagine selling a photograph printed in large size with dyes. The latter are complex chemicals that should stay away from the fine art market. Once I made a print with HP dye ink on an uncoated fine art matte paper; it was a piece if beauty compared with my prints on Magnani Pescia  Hot Press before applying gelatine coating (as I normally do to my large size prints). However, after a few days I washed the former print with water and I could just not believe to my eyes; the blacks where totally gone and there was a ghost image remaining which was very dark green and the paper was yellow stained. 

There is too much talent in this community to be wasted in non archival techniques. If you want deep blacks, I believe the only way to go is (as Ernst suggested) is to coat a pigment based print. There are many sprays around that would do the job to your satisfaction.

  Mantinieri

http://www.mantinieri.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> I have a 30% dilution of the Noritsu K running in my 1400.  While I think the brochures I printed with the Noritsu K + 4% Claria M on Epson Premium Glossy paper were the best I've seen yet (for a high gloss type of print), the 30% dilution is smoother on close inspection.
> 
> The dilute dye shows more of the green characteristic.  
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/BO-v-30pc.jpg  There I have a graph of the Lab A & B for the Noritsu Black Only as well as for the print/profile that also contains the 30% dilution.
> 
> I think some magenta is going to be needed.  After all, Epson never designed this ink for this purpose.  We have found in our pigment mixing that adding cyan makes a deeper black.  I think that is exactly what Epson has done here.  
> 
> Note that the the Epson Premium RC papers appear to have the least amount of green tint.  In a 1400 it might make sense to just buy a Claria LM (or M) to control this characteristic.  However, I think I'm going to aim for a monotone inkset that attempts to compromise the tone among the papers most likely to be used.
> 
> The dilution base used was similar to C6b (http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf at p. 5) in that it uses glycerol, Photo Flo and Edwal LFN, in addition to water, of course.  For the dye, the main change is the addition of Dow Butoxytriglycol. This triethylene glycol monobutyl ether accomplishes several things, including being a dye coupling agent.  The Noritsu inks also use it (as well as glycerol).  It is available from Chemical Marketing Concepts (Dow) (860-354-2278) for $50/quart.  (Wear goggles when mixing it, as it can cause eye damage if it splashes.)
> 
> I used 10% glycerol, 10% butoxytriglcol, 10% Photo Flo and 1% Edwal, remainder water.  The viscosity is slightly below the range I've seen in the pigment inks, but here we don't need to keep anything in suspension.  So the issues are not the same.  Lower might be better.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mantinieri" <mantinieri@...> wrote:
>
> To be honest, I don't fully understand the rational behind so much >attention toward dye inks by this community.  

I guess that I'm interested for my own amusement.  :-)  Plus the fact that I picked up a 1400 along the way somewhere.  Such "serious" printing as I do, I do on my 3800.  

Harry

Hi Mantinieri,


>   I have been working at a clear base for dye ink recently, ... 
> I am attempting to develop an inkjet based platinum print system that requires a base similar to that for dye ink...

Are the platinum compounds in solution, or are they pigments in suspension?  If a pigment, can you get then ground small enough to stay in suspension reasonably well?  It sounds like an interesting project.

>...
> 1) 23% mono-ethylene Glycol - 13% Isopropilyc Alcohol - 64% water ...

I mostly experimented with propylene glycols for the pigment base.  Low toxicity was a main issue there.  I found that as I increased the amount of the glycol, the printing became rougher.



> ... The reason for using HP thermal heads is that platinum compounds are too expensive to be used in the very wasty Epson printing systems, while HP is far more conservative in ink usage. 

Why is that?  Fewer cleaning cycles?

 
> To be honest, I don't fully understand the rational behind so much attention toward dye inks by this community. If you want to produce handout or flyers to give out to potential clients, it seems a very expensive way to make those. ...

I'm not sure what the level of interest is in these dyes.  For me, they make better brochures than do the HP pigments I was using, and they are cheaper than the HP inks.

It's definitely true that MIS inks are cheaper.  On the other hand, artifact free glossy prints do, I think, have uses.  Part of my interest is simply to explore the alternatives.

I have alternated between glossy and matte brochures and cards that I make for other purposes.  What I find is that with indoor lighting the matte prints look great.  In direct sun, however, the deeper glossy dmax makes for a more impressive image. A simple observation is that virtually all photo finishers use glossy paper.  Part of this may be due to the old wet process and advantages of RC papers, but I think much of it is also that most people find glossy snapshots look better.  

For fine art, 100% carbon pigments on cotton paper is and will remain  my medium.

On the other hand, as "HarryB" <hrblaine@...> wrote:
>... "I'm interested for my own amusement.  :-)" 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hello Paul,

> Are the platinum compounds in solution, or are they pigments in suspension?  If a pigment, can you get then ground small enough to stay in suspension reasonably well?  It sounds like an interesting project.
> 
it is the former case. I did not even considered pigments as I believe platinum is just too heavy to be kept in any suspension. Unfortunately, a couple of months ago I discovered that my Carbon-Gelatine workflow had a flaw and I had to spend quite some R&D to modify it, stopping the development on inkjet platinum prints. This had to do with the washing step of the paper after carbon printing (thanks for mentioning it in your write-ups). Apparently, some papers (like Magnani Pescia which is by far my favorite) change their structure once dried, assuming a stiffer behavior. I believe the internal sizing of the paper gets damaged by the washing procedure. This is fine in the very humid climate of Southern Italy, where the washed and dried paper appears almost unchanged. However, in October I visited a friend near Chicago where the ambient humidity was around 15%, and the few prints I brought with me to eventually show to local galleries became intolerably stiff and warped. 
The hard part of the new workflow, where the paper is not washed anymore, was to devise a new technique for gelatine coating a dry (rather than wet) sheet of paper. I almost finished such development (actually, the appearance of the prints with the new workflow is even better than before) and I am ready to restart the inkjet platinum project.
 

> 
> I mostly experimented with propylene glycols for the pigment base.  Low toxicity was a main issue there.  I found that as I increased the amount of the glycol, the printing became rougher.
> 
I did experimented with PE as well for the same reason (an because it is also substantially cheaper than Ethylene-Glycol). With carbon pigments it was a total disaster as the carbon precipitated from the base in matter of a couple of days. With dyes/platinum compounds, both glycols are equivalent.
 
> 
> > ... The reason for using HP thermal heads is that platinum compounds are too expensive to be used in the very wasty Epson printing systems, while HP is far more conservative in ink usage. 
> 
> Why is that?  Fewer cleaning cycles?

It is mostly for that (HP7450 makes essentially no cleaning cycles), but also because zero clogging and also a lower ink deployment during printing.

> 
>  
> 
> It's definitely true that MIS inks are cheaper.  On the other hand, artifact free glossy prints do, I think, have uses.  Part of my interest is simply to explore the alternatives.
> 
May be I am wrong, but with the harsh competition among Print on Demand companies, I think the cheapest and easy way for making brochure is with commercial companies. 
I understand your point regarding exploring alternatives. My impression, however, is that you carry such an extreme level of influence in this community that when you start new projects the crowd following it is correspondingly large, with obvious consequences. Just look at the number of posts in this thread. 

  Mantinieri

http://www.mantinieri.com

Hi Mantinieri,

>... some papers (like Magnani Pescia which is by far my favorite) change their structure once dried, assuming a stiffer behavior...

> The hard part of the new workflow, where the paper is not washed anymore, was to devise a new technique for gelatine coating a dry (rather than wet) sheet of paper...

I like the idea of a gelatin coating -- or some coating that protects the carbon more from being rubbed off.  One attraction of the light "shower head" type of washing I was experimenting with was to wash off the loose carbon.  When done rather lightly, it did reduce the potential for damage with minimal reduction in dmax.  However,  I found I didn't incorporate this in my normal workflow.

I think the physical durability of our matte prints may be their weakest point.  That is an area where these dyes do very well.  I'm trying some Canson baryta paper now, and with the Noritsu-Epson advanced dyes you can rub the surface of the print hard with no significant visible effect.  Again, this dye project is aimed mostly at the day-to-day prints we make, where they are not going to be protected under glass.  For this type of use, the dyes can make a very nice, durable print.  If one of these dye prints turns out to be good enough that one wanted to protect it from fading in extended display, it looks like a UV spray might take them up to about the level of the blended, third-party dedicated B&W processes that are often used by fine art printers.

My ideal would be to be able to easily make a 100% carbon print that would be as physically durable as the dye prints.  I think coatings may be able to come closest to it, but the processes I've tried are labor intensive, which would make the process inappropriate for most printing.  For high end fine art, that extra hands-on labor can be part of what separates the fine art from regular inkjet printing.

>> > ...  HP is far more conservative in ink usage. 

> It is mostly for that (HP7450 makes essentially no cleaning cycles), but also because zero clogging and also a lower ink deployment during printing.

The zero clogging is one of the reasons I'm experimenting with the dyes.  I'm convinced the "glue" needed to stick pigments onto glossy paper is a major factor in clogging. The dilute carbon positions that are Eboni based and not meant for glossy paper have almost no binder in them (zero in the Carbon-6 base) and, as such, virtually never clog.  So far the dyes have not clogged either.  While my old HP dye printer certainly did clog, I would think dyes should be relatively clog free.

>...I think the cheapest and easy way for making brochure is with commercial companies. 

To be honest, I'm a "do it yourself" type, but with high volume, you're probably right.  I'm not sure my volume would justify it. 

I understand your concerns that I might be risking "over-selling" a dye approach that clearly is not as lightfast as the good pigments -- not in the same league with 100% carbon at all.  However, the DIY nature of the process and reiterating the limitations of the approach will, hopefully, not cause any serious backsliding in what the B&W printing community does. 

I suspect most of what is printed by this community does not need to be in the 100% carbon class, and there's a lot to be said for a medium that could just be plain fun to use, for example, for printing cards that we might be able to share with friends more readily, knowing that most of them will end up in the trash long before they'd fade.  

Of course, fade testing is part of what needs to be done with this approach.  Time will tell if this is a dead end of not.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mantinieri,
> 
> > The hard part of the new workflow, where the paper is not washed anymore, was to devise a new technique for gelatine coating a dry (rather than wet) sheet of paper...
> 
> I like the idea of a gelatin coating -- or some coating that protects the carbon more from being rubbed off.  

This to me is the holy grail of gloss or 'satin' printing. My main workflow is carbon (still using 3mk) printed on Hahn PR Pearl and sprayed with hahn spray (satin finish) or Fotospeed's FrogJuice for a more glossy finish. I am very happy with these prints (dmax 2.2-2.4) Will probably be even happier when time permits dalliance with dilutions.  

Main issue is the toxicity of these sprays and hence I have recently been trialling gelatin to use as an alternative coating. However as Mantinieri has found this is difficult stuff to work with and coat the paper without making it stiff and buckled. Once that is solved then also need to work out a good anti-mould and hardening strategy.

If anyone has any (successful) experience with gelatin coating (any old carbon transfer printers out there?) would love to hear of your experiences.

I agree with hp9180profile.  I'd love to know more about gelatin
over-coating of prints.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

In regards to carbon transfer printing... I did this for many years with a
coating rod to produce carbon tissue for print making. This is not an easy
process and would be very difficult to apply to large prints without flaws.
In addition there was always a very significant issue of tissue curling.
Another approach that I did find successful was applying a layer of GLOP
using a second pass through the printer. At the moment I am continuing to
print on matte.  

Gary Wagner

www.garywagner.com 

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
hp9180profile
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 1:44 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Advanced dye for B&W - & carbon coating

 

  



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> , "Paul"
<roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mantinieri,
> 
> > The hard part of the new workflow, where the paper is not washed
anymore, was to devise a new technique for gelatine coating a dry (rather
than wet) sheet of paper...
> 
> I like the idea of a gelatin coating -- or some coating that protects the
carbon more from being rubbed off. 

This to me is the holy grail of gloss or 'satin' printing. My main workflow
is carbon (still using 3mk) printed on Hahn PR Pearl and sprayed with hahn
spray (satin finish) or Fotospeed's FrogJuice for a more glossy finish. I am
very happy with these prints (dmax 2.2-2.4) Will probably be even happier
when time permits dalliance with dilutions. 

Main issue is the toxicity of these sprays and hence I have recently been
trialling gelatin to use as an alternative coating. However as Mantinieri
has found this is difficult stuff to work with and coat the paper without
making it stiff and buckled. Once that is solved then also need to work out
a good anti-mould and hardening strategy.

If anyone has any (successful) experience with gelatin coating (any old
carbon transfer printers out there?) would love to hear of your experiences.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Gary " <gary@...> wrote:
>
> 
> In regards to carbon transfer printing... I did this for 
> many years with a coating rod to produce carbon tissue 
> for print making. This is not an easy
> process and would be very difficult to apply to large 
> prints without flaws...

My experiments with coating matte prints with a rod and aliphatic polyurethane came to a halt when I found the procedure did not scale to large prints.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I've come back to this because I just had a query from a customer of mine about magenta shadows in B&W prints from his R1400. I got him to print a 51-step (QTR) target which I then measured with my i1. It looks reasonably neutral, if anything slightly green, and pretty linear too so the profile is doing a reasonable job. Under my 4700K Solux lamps it looks really nice; however, in normal T-H lighting the whole thing is unacceptably red - much worse than my old Lyson QuadBlack prints.

When I measured the 0,0,0 patch I found an L* of 4,2 but a reflectance rising fairly linearly from 0,0033 at 630nm to 0,317 at 730nm  And yes - he assures me that it is genuine Epson ink.

Am I mis-interpreting something here or does the Epson ink suffer from (severe) metamerism?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> Op 29-11-2010 14:57, Roger Barrett schreef:
> >
> > I used the Ilford Classic for several years with the Lyson QuadBlack
> > (dye) inks in an Epson 1160 and was very pleased with the results.
> > Prints on my wall still look new after 5+ years. Unfortunately it
> > seems that Ilford have now discontinued these papers except in A4.
> >
> > Although I was very pleased with my dye-based B&W they did suffer
> > from some metamerism. I thought that this was a generic problem for
> > dyes because black dyes begin to transmit in the deep red and become
> > almost transparent in the infrared. This was certainly true of the
> > Lyson inks which had a slight red cast in low-temperature tungsten
> > illumination. Are the dyes being talked about here immune to this
> > problem?
> 
> The Lyson dye inks had that problem. The Small Gamut and Lysonic color
> inks too. It isn't dye related in my opinion, more Lyson related.

> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

On Jan 10, 2011, at 10:26 AM, Roger Barrett wrote:

> I've come back to this because I just had a query from a customer of mine about magenta shadows in B&W prints from his R1400. I got him to print a 51-step (QTR) target which I then measured with my i1. It looks reasonably neutral, if anything slightly green, and pretty linear too so the profile is doing a reasonable job. Under my 4700K Solux lamps it looks really nice; however, in normal T-H lighting the whole thing is unacceptably red - much worse than my old Lyson QuadBlack prints.
> 
> When I measured the 0,0,0 patch I found an L* of 4,2 but a reflectance rising fairly linearly from 0,0033 at 630nm to 0,317 at 730nm  And yes - he assures me that it is genuine Epson ink.
> 
> Am I mis-interpreting something here or does the Epson ink suffer from (severe) metamerism?

The key here is which Epson printer is involved. The 1400 does not offer light gray inks, thus is building grays from colors. So yes, this will not be as stable under differing light sources as quad black, or even as an Epson printer which utilizes grays.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Imaging Color Solutions
CDTobie@...


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Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Op 10-1-2011 16:26, Roger Barrett schreef:

> I've come back to this because I just had a query from a customer of mine about magenta shadows in B&W prints from his R1400. I got him to print a 51-step (QTR) target which I then measured with my i1. It looks reasonably neutral, if anything slightly green, and pretty linear too so the profile is doing a reasonable job. Under my 4700K Solux lamps it looks really nice; however, in normal T-H lighting the whole thing is unacceptably red - much worse than my old Lyson QuadBlack prints.
>
> When I measured the 0,0,0 patch I found an L* of 4,2 but a reflectance rising fairly linearly from 0,0033 at 630nm to 0,317 at 730nm  And yes - he assures me that it is genuine Epson ink.
>
> Am I mis-interpreting something here or does the Epson ink suffer from (severe) metamerism?

Like David wrote the greyscale you see is made of CMY dye mixes and will 
show color inconstancy in changing lighting. Something quite different 
from the Lyson Quad inks that should have started from a grey base for 
all the inks.

Or do we interpret your message incorrect and is the image made with the 
Claria black ink only (if the printer driver has that Black Only mode)?
If so then check whether the paper is having FBAs.
Paul is researching the Claria Black ink and I guess he would have 
observed "metamerism" mild or severe fast enough.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Thank you all for the responses.

Paul - I will watch the progress of your experiments with interest.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@> wrote:
> >
> > > ... does the Epson ink suffer from (severe) metamerism?
> 
> ...
> > Paul is researching the Claria Black ink and I guess he would have 
> > observed "metamerism" mild or severe fast enough.
> 
> So far I have not seen any significant problem with metamerism.  The main difference I see between, for example, the Noritsu-Epson prints and the MIS EZ-Neutral prints is the degree of gloss in the shadows.  The MIS pigments cannot match the high gloss of the dye. 
> 
> I think the more color in a system, the more likely there will be metamerism.  I do suspect that the Noritsu-Epson inks contain color dyes, but they appear to hold their own very well against the MIS EZ-N inks, which are carbon with the least amount of color needed to tone them to neutral.  So far, so good with both approaches.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Barrett" <roger@...> wrote:

> Paul - I will watch the progress of your experiments with interest.
 

I second that emotion!  :-)  

Harry

Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
>
> Op 10-1-2011 16:26, Roger Barrett schreef:
> 
> > ...does the Epson ink suffer from (severe) metamerism?
> 
> ...
> Paul is researching the Claria Black ink and I guess he would have 
> observed "metamerism" mild or severe fast enough.

I wanted to give a modified response to this issue.  I've come back to making some comparison prints with the 1400 -- just using the C and LC positions -- on high gloss papers.  The three inks I was comparing are MIS UT14 C & LC (a neutralized LK and PK), HP PK and 30% HP PK, and the Noritsu-Epson K & 30%K (blended with 13% Noritsu M).

With respect to just the issue of metamerism, the Noritsu-Epson dye does show considerably more of it.  The black ink has a blue-green bias that, even when neutralized with 13% magenta, shows up much more, particularly in the shadows, when a fluorescent light is used.

However, one has to balance this against the positives and negatives of the other approaches.  HP is no doubt the most lightfast, but it has a serious bronzing that seriously veils the shadows relative to the Noritsu inks.  The MIS UT14 inks have less bronzing, but they are just flat, with a finish that looks dull in comparison with either the HP or Noritsu.

Overall, I think for high gloss cards and the like, I'd still pick the dye as having the best look, even with its metamerism.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

The WorkForce 30 appears to be an inappropriate platform for the Noritsu-Epson dye ink approach.

In a several month, low usage setting the WorkForce 30 with the dye inks in it may have had the ink simply run through it. 

The dye inks are made for the 1.5 pl printers, and I have not seen any evidence of ink loss on the 1400.  Also, the R220 appeared to have none.  The R220 may have a smaller drop size than the Wf 30.  

If the picoliter drop size is a significant variable, there is a WF 40 model that may have a smaller drop size  -- the WF40.

The WorkForce printers I've used -- WF 30 and WF 1100 -- so far appear to be good "EZ" types of printers for matte printing with pigment ink.    
See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/C88-C13-5.pdf for a similar setup for the C88.  It may be that a standardized LK density for the midtone ink both works better and brings the "EZ" approach within a large, competitive market for LK density inks.

So, the WF 30 gets a Eboni/Carbon-6 18% (M & LK density) setup next.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hi Paul,
I have set up a Workforce 30 for Eboni MK (three dilutions and the K ink in the two black positions) and use it with PhotoGP (a freeware Gutenprint plug-in for Photoshop CS4). I linearize the curves by modifying the XML curve files associated with the C,M,Y positions. On the other hand I notice that there is an abnormal reduction in some of the ink levels, especially in the Cyan position (I use 2% dilution with the generic solvent according to your formulation - thanks!). I wonder if the ink is leaking out when not in use. Now that you mention the dye inks leaking, I should pay more attention to this!
Unny 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> The WorkForce 30 appears to be an inappropriate platform for the Noritsu-Epson dye ink approach.
> 
> In a several month, low usage setting the WorkForce 30 with the dye inks in it may have had the ink simply run through it. 
> 
> The dye inks are made for the 1.5 pl printers, and I have not seen any evidence of ink loss on the 1400.  Also, the R220 appeared to have none.  The R220 may have a smaller drop size than the Wf 30.  
> 
> If the picoliter drop size is a significant variable, there is a WF 40 model that may have a smaller drop size  -- the WF40.
> 
> The WorkForce printers I've used -- WF 30 and WF 1100 -- so far appear to be good "EZ" types of printers for matte printing with pigment ink.    
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/C88-C13-5.pdf for a similar setup for the C88.  It may be that a standardized LK density for the midtone ink both works better and brings the "EZ" approach within a large, competitive market for LK density inks.
> 
> So, the WF 30 gets a Eboni/Carbon-6 18% (M & LK density) setup next.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"Unny" <erissery@...> wrote:
>
>  I have set up a Workforce 30 for Eboni MK (three dilutions and the K ink ...) ... I notice that there is an abnormal reduction in some of the ink levels, ... I wonder if the ink is leaking out when not in use. ...


I've put Eboni & dilute Eboni in my WF 30 now and will also keep an eye out for unexplained ink loss.  It may be the carts, not the ink, that are the source of the problem.  I notice when I prime the carts I'm using that they act differently than other carts.  They may be using a design that is not working well with the printer.

I was going to set up a CIS with the printer, but the cheap one I bought didn't work.  Given the design of the printer, I'm skeptical that any CIS will work.  There is no room under the top, and there is also a switch to detect when the top is up or off.  The chips on the CIS I bought also didn't work. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I'm going to be taking this dye printing effort to the OEM Claria 1400 setup.  This accomplishes several things.

Perhaps most importantly, this dye approach is available without the need to mix inks.  

On the other hand, I'll continue to use the Noritsu inputs and my generic dy clear base to save money.  (So can everyone else. The formula is in fn 14, page 4 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/BW-Dye.pdf, 10-2011 version.)  But, one can buy the Claria inks and have the same results.  (I'll be further testing this.) 


I think this also gives us a different approach to a color plus B&W printing platform.  


What I've been testing recently is putting Noritsu/Claria K in the C position and "Claria LM" in the LC position of my 1400 that has Eboni-4 in the other positions.  This gives me a variable-tone capability (vary the amount of LM) with an underlying black only print. This allows me (and others) to profile virtually any paper rather easily.

Most of my prints with this setup look good -- very good or I would not further pursue this approach. There is a graininess to those images that have a smooth, plain sky.  This is typical black only with the 1400 or other 1.5 pl system.  

At the very edges of cards with 1/4 inch margins pixel peepers might notice microbanding at the edge (typical of all 1400 approaches and many newer printers).

If microbanding looks like it is going to be a significant issue, I might try something like the 3-MK approach that took care of the microbanding on the 1800. This will not be available to the Claria OEM setups, but it will still be an approach that can use 100% Epson inks with no mixing. 

Note that the easy WorkForce 30 and 1100 approaches that use the dilute LK print better.  But they require mixing, and that limits the market too much.

While carbon will remain my fine art, large display medium of choice, the Claria tests, including the black only ones at www.aardenburg-imaging.com, indicate to me that these advanced dyes are a serious contender for a number of uses, including serious display if sprayed with Print Shield.  

I think they are an approach that needs to be further developed.  You have to see and feel (no rub off or surface printing artifacts) the cards or other, non-glazed output to appreciate why I'm pushing this technology.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul:
This sounds like a wonderful approach! When Allen Maertz and I were working on longer lasting dye inks, especially for B&W, it was frustrating to see the color balance of B&W change, from one media to another. We never thought of using colors in some channels to neutralize the media color shift.

BTW you should be careful on your use of color though! Dye inks are notorious for interactions between colors, which leads to premature failure of one of the dyes. In our informal fade testing of the black only dyes with various dilutions, they appeared to be "bullet proof". But in 6-color life testing by Wilhelm, even with swellable polymer papers, life was in the 15-25 years depending on the media.

We were using Ilford dyes, where we found the interacting inks to be the Cyan and Magenta. Magenta having the failure problem.

Be sure to get some early fading tests going to see if you are going to have any premature dye interaction problems on various media, especially after spraying. Hopefully the spray will help stabilize the dyes, besides sealing against oxidation problems.

John Nollendorfs 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> I'm going to be taking this dye printing effort to the OEM Claria 1400 setup.  This accomplishes several things.
> 
> Perhaps most importantly, this dye approach is available without the need to mix inks.  
> 
> On the other hand, I'll continue to use the Noritsu inputs and my generic dy clear base to save money.  (So can everyone else. The formula is in fn 14, page 4 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/BW-Dye.pdf, 10-2011 version.)  But, one can buy the Claria inks and have the same results.  (I'll be further testing this.) 
> 
> 
> I think this also gives us a different approach to a color plus B&W printing platform.  
> 
> 
> What I've been testing recently is putting Noritsu/Claria K in the C position and "Claria LM" in the LC position of my 1400 that has Eboni-4 in the other positions.  This gives me a variable-tone capability (vary the amount of LM) with an underlying black only print. This allows me (and others) to profile virtually any paper rather easily.
> 
> Most of my prints with this setup look good -- very good or I would not further pursue this approach. There is a graininess to those images that have a smooth, plain sky.  This is typical black only with the 1400 or other 1.5 pl system.  
> 
> At the very edges of cards with 1/4 inch margins pixel peepers might notice microbanding at the edge (typical of all 1400 approaches and many newer printers).
> 
> If microbanding looks like it is going to be a significant issue, I might try something like the 3-MK approach that took care of the microbanding on the 1800. This will not be available to the Claria OEM setups, but it will still be an approach that can use 100% Epson inks with no mixing. 
> 
> Note that the easy WorkForce 30 and 1100 approaches that use the dilute LK print better.  But they require mixing, and that limits the market too much.
> 
> While carbon will remain my fine art, large display medium of choice, the Claria tests, including the black only ones at www.aardenburg-imaging.com, indicate to me that these advanced dyes are a serious contender for a number of uses, including serious display if sprayed with Print Shield.  
> 
> I think they are an approach that needs to be further developed.  You have to see and feel (no rub off or surface printing artifacts) the cards or other, non-glazed output to appreciate why I'm pushing this technology.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"John" <jrnolly@...> wrote:
>

> ...it was frustrating to see the color balance of B&W change, from one media to another. We never thought of using colors in some channels to neutralize the media color shift.


One thing that makes these Claria/Noritsu dyes so interesting is that you can stay with a single toner -- LM -- and cover almost all papers with an appropriate neutral-cool tone.  This makes the profiling very easy.  It appears all that one needs to do is alter the LM toner ink limit a tiny amount to adjust to other papers.  

Note that the LM ink limit for in the "toner" channel of my current QTR profile is 0.5, compared to 17 (boost 22) for the black.  I am not using very much color.  Some think you can just use black only, but I like the toned approach better.  It's worth the little work it takes.

Note also that I'm mostly thinking of this for glossy papers.  Only HPR and Red River Premier Matte seem to have really good matte dmaxs.  In my Eb4 Plus setup, however, I can use Eboni for the MK as needed.  

Eb4 Plus (http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-4-Plus.pdf) remains at the core of this effort.  The same profiles should work for Eb4 Plus and OEM Claria.   

 
> BTW you should be careful on your use of color though! Dye inks are notorious for interactions between colors, ...


By staying with the OEM inks, and not mixing or diluting, people to try this approach will not be making anything worse than the full color Claria that has been tested by Wilhelm and Mark.  And they are very satisfactory for many uses.


> We were using Ilford dyes, ...

I think the Epson Claria/Noritsu dyes give me the best performance and compatibility among the dyes I am familiar with. 200 years of dark storage, for example in a book, sounds OK to me.  This is not the old style dye.  When sprayed the black only Claria on Canson baryta is in the same league as the third party B&W blended/neutralized inks (unsprayed), as I read the Aardenberg-Imaging tests.

The new OEM-compatible approach I'm taking allows people to stay with stock OEM Claria.  As such, the existing tests are on point and directly applicable.  

It would be nice to have comparisons for the Noritsu and generic base dilutions. I personally think the inks Epson sells into the Noritsu dry lab market are the very same as Claria.  Dilution may affect lightfastness compared to full strength black only.  However, I doubt the dilute black is worse than the light color inks Epson has in the Claria hextone inkset, and those are not bad.

(Note that I also intend to continue to use and explore the dilute Noritsu, generic base approaches.  And 100% carbon is what I'll continue to use for my large display prints and wherever the best lightfastness and image stability is needed.)


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I have a 3-K version, similar to the 1800 3-MK, running on my 1400 now.  This approach takes care of much of the black only microbanding, which does show up in smooth areas.  Still, however, the 1400 edge banding and the inevitable increased graininess of black only cannot be solved with only the OEM inks.  

The WorkForce printers with the dilute dyes (user mixed -- see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1100-Dye.pdf) make much smoother cards with no microbanding even at the edges -- easy and near perfect for less money, but more work mixing.

At any rate the 1400 3-K setup is another option that allows un-altered OEM inks to produce the B&W, with fewer artifacts than just the single black only approach.  The 1400 3K approach also allows full 3D controls -- LM, LC, and Y can be in the printer.  Most of the cards that I make don't show the artifacts.  However, those with very smooth sky areas, particularly at the leading edge where the paper transport is less than perfect, do show the typical 1400 edge problem.

Note that non-card type prints with 1" borders are looking good with the BO and very good with the 3K setup.  Aside from the borders, only the most sensitive images will show significant artifacts, aside from the courser grain one has to expect with no dilute inks.

This 1400 BO effort is not to make the ultimate dye printer, but rather to whet the appetite of enough people to get Epson or some other company in the ink business to make the inks.  (I'm really not in that business, even though I've supplied some to others.)  Once you see your B&W cards and snapshots on metallic paper with dyes, you'll want one of these setups.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I've noted in the past the problem of edge banding with the 1400.  I have always tred to have at least a 1 inch borders with the 1400.  For very good paper transport without microbanding the printer seems to need both paper transport rollers to be engaged.  This has been a real problem with cards because I can't have 1" borders on them; I usually have had a 1/4 inch border at the edge of the paper that I feed into the printer first.

A very good, even if not 100%, solution to the card printing problem appears to be to simply feed the card paper in horizontally.  That is, rather than have the 7x10 paper in portrait mode, feed it in with the paper in landscape mode or horizontally.  That way even though both rollers are not engaged initially, the first/main feed roller is in contact with 10" as opposed to 7 inches of the paper, and there is no pre-scored bump that will hit the rollers and cause a problem.  Since the first feed roller is the best, if the smooth area is on the bottom of the print, print the image so that the bottom prints first.

The bottom line is that the improvement is enough that some of my critical test cards that were unacceptable with Claria BO are now good enough.  This may not sound like much of a big deal, but for making the Claria printers good B&W card printers I think it's a major step.  I'm much more encouraged that this is going to work.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com