Digital BW, The Print

I liked the way a couple of my black and white on-screen images looked with a light sepia tone. 

For prints, I am using an Epson 1400 with the UT-14 inkset and Red River Fine Art White paper. Using the printer-controls settings, this achieves good neutral results. Replacing the UT-14 Ebony ink with the black ink from the color ink set is a little warmer and the blacks are a bit deeper. 

I've worked a little with the QTR software and tried a few ICC settings to see if I can nurse some warmer tones out of the UT-14 ink set. This has not worked well. 

With on-screen images I can acheive a nice sepia tone with the following method. Save the B&W image as a JPG. Open the JPG in Lightroom as a color image. Adjust the color temperatuer +12 (adds yellow) and adjust the tone +5 (adds red). This simple adjustment has me thinking. Can I achieve similar results by adding a bit of yellow and light magenta to my black ink and get a sepia print?

I have ink in bottles and a few spare cartridges that I could experiment with, but before I start, it seems pudent to ask if others have tried this. If so, what works?

My questions would be:

- What ratios of black to yellow and or light magenta to use (or other colors, if recommended)

- What cartridges in the UT-14 set should have the additional toning? Do they all need it or just black?

I'm inclined to try adding about 5% yellow to the color set black along with 2% light magenta and mix that with the other 5/6 of the UT-14 and see what happens. 

Comments would be appreciated.

"remononaz1" <homershannon@...> wrote:
>
> I liked the way a couple of my black and white on-screen images looked with a light sepia tone. 
> 
> For prints, I am using an Epson 1400 with the UT-14 inkset and Red River Fine Art White paper. 



For the UT14 inkset, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf

Note that the magenta channel -- LM and M -- is MIS glossy-compatible 100% carbon. That will set the limit on how far you can go to a sepia tone with that inkset.  If you just us a Photoshop curve with the green curve from 0 - 100, or use QTR to do this, you'll see the tones.

Note that matte paper does not reach as deep a sepia as glossy paper.  I use a non-OBA glossy paper -- often Museo Silver Rag -- when I want a true sepia look.


>Using the printer-controls settings, this achieves good neutral results. Replacing the UT-14 Ebony ink with the black ink from the color ink set is a little warmer and the blacks are a bit deeper.


That surprises me.  Claria K is greenish cool in my book.


...

> My questions would be:
> 
> - What ratios of black to yellow and or light magenta to use (or other colors, if recommended)
> 
> - What cartridges in the UT-14 set should have the additional toning? Do they all need it or just black?
> 
> I'm inclined to try adding about 5% yellow to the color set black along with 2% light magenta and mix that with the other 5/6 of the UT-14 and see what happens. 



It sounds like you are going to experiment with mixing the Claria and UT14 inks.  You could get a very deep sepia by using the UT14 Lm and M in combination with the Claria Y, but I have not tried this.

If you want to make a good sepia tone without the need for the Claria, you might test the new Red River baryta paper.  I hope to have some soon.  This is said to be an OBA free paper, which might be a more economical approach than the Museo Silver Rag to a good sepia tone with the MIS warm carbon.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul:

Thank you for your input. Nothing like getting to the source ;-)

I have read the article you listed and several others of yours. Im understanding some of this, but don't understand what you mean by, "use a Photoshop curve with the green curve from 0-100, or use QTR to do this, you'll see the tones."

I'm not fully up to speed on the QTR, though trying. I don't see how it adjusts tones. 

As for Photoshop, I saw the ability to bring in files to the curves adjustment tool and modify the 'coloration' but I'm not sure this is what you are referring to. If you are, should I be looking for a tone curve that has green in a straight diagonal line?

Homer

Homer,


> 
> ... don't understand what you mean by, "use a Photoshop curve with the green curve from 0-100, or use QTR to do this, you'll see the tones."


The warm carbon inks are in the M and LM carts.  If you just print with them, you'll see the tones that carbon generates.  A straight line Photoshop curve that is simply the green curve (which controls the magenta inks) in its normal, default location will print those inks.  To cut out the other inks, pull the red and blue curves (which control the cyan and yellow ink positions, respectively) down to the white end of the graph, so that they are horizontal.

With glossy paper, this simple curve will also generate a good dmax.  With matte paper you'll need the K position MK.  To turn it on the red and blue curves must rise sharply from about 75% to full on at 100%.  Making these curves appropriately takes some practice.

For most, using existing curves is the way to get started. 


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I use two wide format printers, an HP z3100ps and an Canon Progaf 8300, for fine art reproduction.  I have been happy with the monochrome prints from the z3100 in the past.  Now I have a customer who brings in 35 mm film along with the commercial scans done with development.  He really loves the truly deep, cold, blacks they made for him as large proofs on glossy paper.  I personally think there is quite a loss of detail in the deepest tones.  I believe the look I want for him (20in or 30 in large prints) is as much as possible like my old Selenium toned Silver gelatin prints.  

Have on hand and profiled Epson Prem semi matte and Silver rag among other my media.  Any suggestions for media, printer choice etc. would be appreciated.  J Vee

Paul:

Thank you for your response. I had just few minutes this morning to get into Photoshop and see I understand what you have said - I do!

I think I see some additional questions brewing, but I'll bave a go with this tonight and trouble you again once I eliminate the issues I can figure out on my own. 

I'm getting there!

Homer Shannon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> Homer,
> 
> 
> > 
> > ... don't understand what you mean by, "use a Photoshop curve with the green curve from 0-100, or use QTR to do this, you'll see the tones."
> 
> 
> The warm carbon inks are in the M and LM carts.  If you just print with them, you'll see the tones that carbon generates.  A straight line Photoshop curve that is simply the green curve (which controls the magenta inks) in its normal, default location will print those inks.  To cut out the other inks, pull the red and blue curves (which control the cyan and yellow ink positions, respectively) down to the white end of the graph, so that they are horizontal.
> 
> With glossy paper, this simple curve will also generate a good dmax.  With matte paper you'll need the K position MK.  To turn it on the red and blue curves must rise sharply from about 75% to full on at 100%.  Making these curves appropriately takes some practice.
> 
> For most, using existing curves is the way to get started. 
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I've tried them all and vastly prefer the Harmon Baryta on the Canon 8300, especially the warm version with no oba, but I like both of them and use both of them. I use this with the True Black and White rip - http://www.trueblackandwhite.com/

However, Shades Of Paper just started selling a new Innova fiber gloss paper that I"m going to test next week.

For me the Canon is superior compared to years of trying to do the same thing on the HPZ, with good but not excellent results.  This is a much better method in my opinion than trying to make great curves for the canon driver. I'm seeing much cleaner neutral color and more consistent warm hues on these papers, printing 16 bit grayscale. 

It's frustrating they have such basic info available on this software and they certainly aren't pushing it on the market with any advertising. 

My feeling after emailing them a few times is that they wanted to design this for their own great printing out in LA and just kind of offered it anyone who was interested, with Canon's blessing. But they were very nice in answering any of my questions. They want to keep it simple, I know that.

john


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, J Vee <j_vee@...> wrote:

>
> I use two wide format printers, an HP z3100ps and an Canon Progaf 8300, for fine art reproduction.  I have been happy with the monochrome prints from the z3100 in the past.  Now I have a customer who brings in 35 mm film along with the commercial scans done with development.  He really loves the truly deep, cold, blacks they made for him as large proofs on glossy paper.  I personally think there is quite a loss of detail in the deepest tones.  I believe the look I want for him (20in or 30 in large prints) is as much as possible like my old Selenium toned Silver gelatin prints.  
> 
> Have on hand and profiled Epson Prem semi matte and Silver rag among other my media.  Any suggestions for media, printer choice etc. would be appreciated.  J Vee
>

Homer,
     I'm not familiar with the Red River paper, but it sounds like it has a non-glossy surface.  If you want to try QTR, you could try the curves that I made for UT-14 and Epson Enhanced Matte.  They are available for download on the QTR forum.  There are two curves for the matte paper, one warm and one cool.  The warm curve uses the M and LM inks, and the cool uses the C and LC.  You can set the relative amounts used with the QTR controls.  The full warm should give you a near-sepia look.  

I think that once you see how to use QTR, this approach is easier than using curves within Photoshop, and it will allow you to fine tune the tone of your prints.  For the best results, you would want curves for your specific paper, but using the one I made should give you a feel for what is possible.

David

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "remononaz1" <homershannon@...> wrote:

>
> I liked the way a couple of my black and white on-screen images looked with a light sepia tone. 
> 
> For prints, I am using an Epson 1400 with the UT-14 inkset and Red River Fine Art White paper. Using the printer-controls settings, this achieves good neutral results. Replacing the UT-14 Ebony ink with the black ink from the color ink set is a little warmer and the blacks are a bit deeper. 
> 
> I've worked a little with the QTR software and tried a few ICC settings to see if I can nurse some warmer tones out of the UT-14 ink set. This has not worked well. 
> 
> With on-screen images I can acheive a nice sepia tone with the following method. Save the B&W image as a JPG. Open the JPG in Lightroom as a color image. Adjust the color temperatuer +12 (adds yellow) and adjust the tone +5 (adds red). This simple adjustment has me thinking. Can I achieve similar results by adding a bit of yellow and light magenta to my black ink and get a sepia print?
> 
> I have ink in bottles and a few spare cartridges that I could experiment with, but before I start, it seems pudent to ask if others have tried this. If so, what works?
> 
> My questions would be:
> 
> - What ratios of black to yellow and or light magenta to use (or other colors, if recommended)
> 
> - What cartridges in the UT-14 set should have the additional toning? Do they all need it or just black?
> 
> I'm inclined to try adding about 5% yellow to the color set black along with 2% light magenta and mix that with the other 5/6 of the UT-14 and see what happens. 
> 
> Comments would be appreciated.
>

Thank you for your input, David. I have used QTR but I'm still not quite up to speed with it. Last night I used the QTR Step Wedge tool for the first time and seemed to have success but bedtime came around before I could actually make a test print using the new profile. I'll be at it again this weekend, you can be sure!

I'm sort of at a point where I'm getting good results but having difficlty moving ahead to the next level in my printing. There's always a new challenge in this digital photography!

Homer

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dpgoldenberg33@...> wrote:

>
> Homer,
>      I'm not familiar with the Red River paper, but it sounds like it has a non-glossy surface.  If you want to try QTR, you could try the curves that I made for UT-14 and Epson Enhanced Matte.  They are available for download on the QTR forum.  There are two curves for the matte paper, one warm and one cool.  The warm curve uses the M and LM inks, and the cool uses the C and LC.  You can set the relative amounts used with the QTR controls.  The full warm should give you a near-sepia look.  
> 
> I think that once you see how to use QTR, this approach is easier than using curves within Photoshop, and it will allow you to fine tune the tone of your prints.  For the best results, you would want curves for your specific paper, but using the one I made should give you a feel for what is possible.
> 
> David
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "remononaz1" <homershannon@> wrote:
> >
> > I liked the way a couple of my black and white on-screen images looked with a light sepia tone. 
> > 
> > For prints, I am using an Epson 1400 with the UT-14 inkset and Red River Fine Art White paper. Using the printer-controls settings, this achieves good neutral results. Replacing the UT-14 Ebony ink with the black ink from the color ink set is a little warmer and the blacks are a bit deeper. 
> > 
> > I've worked a little with the QTR software and tried a few ICC settings to see if I can nurse some warmer tones out of the UT-14 ink set. This has not worked well. 
> > 
> > With on-screen images I can acheive a nice sepia tone with the following method. Save the B&W image as a JPG. Open the JPG in Lightroom as a color image. Adjust the color temperatuer +12 (adds yellow) and adjust the tone +5 (adds red). This simple adjustment has me thinking. Can I achieve similar results by adding a bit of yellow and light magenta to my black ink and get a sepia print?
> > 
> > I have ink in bottles and a few spare cartridges that I could experiment with, but before I start, it seems pudent to ask if others have tried this. If so, what works?
> > 
> > My questions would be:
> > 
> > - What ratios of black to yellow and or light magenta to use (or other colors, if recommended)
> > 
> > - What cartridges in the UT-14 set should have the additional toning? Do they all need it or just black?
> > 
> > I'm inclined to try adding about 5% yellow to the color set black along with 2% light magenta and mix that with the other 5/6 of the UT-14 and see what happens. 
> > 
> > Comments would be appreciated.
> >
>

I can't find any "profiles" at all for the 8300 for the True Black and White rip.  Will be interested to hear your experience with the new paper, but want something not as warm as Silver rag if possible.   J Vee
 
On Feb 23, 2012, at 7:48 PM, john wrote:

> I've tried them all and vastly prefer the Harmon Baryta on the Canon 8300, especially the warm version with no oba, but I like both of them and use both of them. I use this with the True Black and White rip - http://www.trueblackandwhite.com/
> 
> However, Shades Of Paper just started selling a new Innova fiber gloss paper that I"m going to test next week.
> 
> For me the Canon is superior compared to years of trying to do the same thing on the HPZ, with good but not excellent results. This is a much better method in my opinion than trying to make great curves for the canon driver. I'm seeing much cleaner neutral color and more consistent warm hues on these papers, printing 16 bit grayscale. 
> 
> It's frustrating they have such basic info available on this software and they certainly aren't pushing it on the market with any advertising. 
> 
> My feeling after emailing them a few times is that they wanted to design this for their own great printing out in LA and just kind of offered it anyone who was interested, with Canon's blessing. But they were very nice in answering any of my questions. They want to keep it simple, I know that.
> 
> john
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, J Vee <j_vee@...> wrote:
> >
> > I use two wide format printers, an HP z3100ps and an Canon Progaf 8300, for fine art reproduction. I have been happy with the monochrome prints from the z3100 in the past. Now I have a customer who brings in 35 mm film along with the commercial scans done with development. He really loves the truly deep, cold, blacks they made for him as large proofs on glossy paper. I personally think there is quite a loss of detail in the deepest tones. I believe the look I want for him (20in or 30 in large prints) is as much as possible like my old Selenium toned Silver gelatin prints. 
> > 
> > Have on hand and profiled Epson Prem semi matte and Silver rag among other my media. Any suggestions for media, printer choice etc. would be appreciated. J Vee
> >
> 
> 



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