Digital BW, The Print

Is there a color difference between mixing Carbon-6 using the Paul's formulae on his site or just using the MIS clear (well, slightly amber) base  ESC-BASE-UC on matte papers?

Same viscosity and/or surfacant actions?

Seth

"sethrus" <seth@...> wrote:
>
> Is there a color difference between mixing Carbon-6 using the Paul's formulae on his site or just using the MIS clear (well, slightly amber) base  ESC-BASE-UC on matte papers?
> 
> Same viscosity and/or surfacant actions?

My tests with that MIS clear base resulted in rather rough Eboni prints.  It is not what MIS uses for Eboni-6 nor its Ultra Tone inks.  I don't recommend it.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul.

So it's home brew or buy their bottles?  they don't sell that base?

Seth

Seth,
 
> So it's home brew or buy their bottles?  they don't sell that base?

That was the situation the last time I inquired.  I'm not sure why they don't sell the Eb6 clear base, but it may be due to it being incompatible with Epson UltraChrome inks.  (Eboni itself is not incompatible.)  MIS may be concerned that people will try mixing the two ink types.  Note that the generic, user-mixed base is not incompatible.  It may be the biocide in the Eb6 base.  The generic base has none, and those biocides have been said to be a source of incompatibilities with inks.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Seth,

The ESC-BASEPT-UC "amber" base is not recommended for use with the Eboni inks as it can cause poor ink performance.

We are looking into offering the base on our site, but do fear that there will be issues with mixing base types if users are not careful.  We are currently testing the Paul's base and looking to see what our options are.

-Justin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Seth Rossman <seth@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks Paul.
> 
> So it's home brew or buy their bottles?  they don't sell that base?
> 
> Seth
>

Justin ("mis_inksupply"),

It's good to see that MIS is getting more involved with B&W.

> The ESC-BASEPT-UC "amber" base is not recommended for use with the Eboni inks as it can cause poor ink performance.

I agree.

We'll need to be sure we're coordinated with the current names of the MIS bases.  The names on the bottles have changed over the years.  And what we've called them casually on the forum are not necessarily on the bottles (like "Glop").

 
> We are looking into offering the base on our site, but do fear that there will be issues with mixing base types if users are not careful.


I agree.  There are a couple open issues with respect to mixing bases.  First, my long term test bed that had MIS K4 carbon blended with the generic base failed.  It looks like it was probably the cis involved, but I cannot tell.  At this point, however, I do not recommend using the generic base with MIS glossy inks.  At any rate, the un-coated MIS pigments lose their glossy compatibility with the generic base.  

The generic base does work to dilute the HP coated glossy Z3100/3200 pigments.  At least with respect to the HP PK, I had long term tests with a 30% PK/70% generic base setup that worked perfectly.

With respect to the HP tests, I did have one printer (and old 2200) that showed some clogging in a 50/50 blend.  Again, it could have been the printer, which totally failed soon after this instance.  But there is an outside chance that while a 30% PK/70% base mix is stable, a 50/50 is not.  To avoid that possibility and since the 50/50 is not needed, I removed that mix from my PDFs.

There are other issues relating to pH and biocides.  

After rather tedious work to learn how to buffer an ink, making a base with those characteristics, and testing it, I concluded the effort was a waste of time.  Even though the 2% Eboni mix did start to diverge from the 100%'s pH, the actual stability of the suspension as tested in my centrifuge indicated mixed results, and almost no effect either direction.  At least with that ink blend, it simply does not look like additional work to buffer the base is needed.  


On the biocide issue, it appears carbon is simply not much liked by bugs.  It and the base appear rather inert.  Be sure to use un-polluted distilled water and high grade glycerol.  Note that there may be color inks that are at risk.  One OEM chemist noted it was the yellow that needed the biocide.

Note also that the HP-MIS glop combo seems stable and a worthy ink option.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1100-HpGO.pdf

I do think MIS ought to consider cloning that setup.  UT14 LC is close.  A bit more neutral LK and LLK would be good additions to the product line.  UT14 LC by itself on most papers ends up with a slightly negative Lab B.  That is, it's a bit cooler than just neutral.  It was intentionally designed to be run in a printer with un-cooled MIS carbon that would be blended in via the profiles to bring it back to neutral.  


> We are currently testing the Paul's base and looking to see what our options are.


I think the market would welcome an easier way to get it.  I do not make a practice of selling the generic pigment base.  So, it's not a problem with me.  My goals have been to be sure there is a viable and very affordable "digital darkroom" for B&W photographers.  B&W photography has meant so much to me, and I assume I'm not alone, that to the extent I can help be sure the materials and workflows are available to all, including starving students/artists and retirees on fixed incomes (like me), I'll do so.  Easy access to the ingredients and different types of pre-mixed bases fit that model very well.


I think there is room for a "Photographers Formulary" model in the digital darkroom, and MIS is the logical company to fill that void.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Justin-
Thank you for your tip.  I'll stay away from that.  What brought it up 
is MIS website shows that as the base for Ultrachrome.  There is no 
warning not to use it for Ultrachrome K (Eboni), Lk, or Llk?!?!  Is the 
K4 Eboni different somehow??

Since I'm converting the 2400 to a dedicated B&W, it will no longer be 
an issue.  I'll go to Paul's formula.

Seth

On 3/9/2012 4:05 PM, mis_inksupply wrote:
>
> Seth,
>
> The ESC-BASEPT-UC "amber" base is not recommended for use with the 
> Eboni inks as it can cause poor ink performance.
>
> We are looking into offering the base on our site, but do fear that 
> there will be issues with mixing base types if users are not careful. 
> We are currently testing the Paul's base and looking to see what our 
> options are.
>
> -Justin ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email -->
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The ESC-BASEPT-UC would be the correct base to use for dilutions of our LK and LLK inks as they are designed to be compatible with coated glossy media.  We are currently working on re-establishing a section of our site dedicated to the B&W community that will offer all of our bases as well as the more difficult to source ingredients to Paul's bases.

-Justin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Seth Rossman <seth@...> wrote:

>
> Justin-
> Thank you for your tip.  I'll stay away from that.  What brought it up 
> is MIS website shows that as the base for Ultrachrome.  There is no 
> warning not to use it for Ultrachrome K (Eboni), Lk, or Llk?!?!  Is the 
> K4 Eboni different somehow??
> 
> Since I'm converting the 2400 to a dedicated B&W, it will no longer be 
> an issue.  I'll go to Paul's formula.
> 
> Seth
> 
> On 3/9/2012 4:05 PM, mis_inksupply wrote:
> >
> > Seth,
> >
> > The ESC-BASEPT-UC "amber" base is not recommended for use with the 
> > Eboni inks as it can cause poor ink performance.
> >
> > We are looking into offering the base on our site, but do fear that 
> > there will be issues with mixing base types if users are not careful. 
> > We are currently testing the Paul's base and looking to see what our 
> > options are.
> >
> > -Justin ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email -->
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Justin-

I think I mixed things up. I presumed the black inks for B&W on the 2400 were mixed Ultrachrome.  Apparently the Carbon 6 is coming from the UT Eboni, thus my mix up on what base to use.

My question now is: is the UT Eboni more stable than the K4 Eboni?  When I transition the 2400 to B&W only, I want to do it once.  (I just stocked up on K4 blacks from you last week, but I can keep those for the R3000.)

Seth

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mis_inksupply" <mis_inksupply@...> wrote:

>
> The ESC-BASEPT-UC would be the correct base to use for dilutions of our LK and LLK inks as they are designed to be compatible with coated glossy media.  We are currently working on re-establishing a section of our site dedicated to the B&W community that will offer all of our bases as well as the more difficult to source ingredients to Paul's bases.
> 
> -Justin

"sethrus" <seth@...> wrote:

Sorry for chiming in here, but I'd like to be sure we are all talking the same language.  So, here are some of the terminologies as I use them:

> I presumed the black inks for B&W on the 2400 were mixed Ultrachrome.

MIS has a family of "UltraTone" inks.  "UltraChrome" is Epson's color inkset.  



>  Apparently the Carbon 6 

"Carbon-6" is the name I use for the inkset made from MIS Eboni MK and the generic base.  "Eboni-6" is MIS's pre-mixed and sometimes pre-loaded version of this inkset.  I use both, and the same profiles work with both. 

>  is coming from the UT Eboni, 


Eboni MK is used in the UltraTone (UT) family of inks as well as in the Eboni/Carbon-6 family.

The bases that are used to dilute the inks are different and should not be mixed.  

The UT base, which (correct me if I'm wrong) MIS is now labeling "ESC-BASEPT-UC" (aka "amber" base?) is for the UT family dilutions and keeps them glossy compatible.  It does not work well as a dilution base for Eboni.  Most in the past bought the MIS R800 gloss optimizer for diluting the UT inks, as the base was not sold as such. 

The Eboni-6 base also did not used to be made available.  I'm not sure if MIS is going to do that or just make my generic base components and/or full mix available. I think making the generic base and/or its components available can be beneficial to many and improve the market.



Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul-
I'm glad you chimed!!
I should have never used Epson's TM name.   What I was trying to get at 
is the UT Eboni the same as the K4 Eboni (and, presumably, the K4 LK and 
LLK) basewise?  Regardless of what the base is for the C,M, etc.

Bottom line is can I use the K4 Eboni and dilute it to LK, LLK, etc?

Seth

On 3/12/2012 7:04 PM, Paul wrote:
>
> "sethrus" <seth@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry for chiming in here, but I'd like to be sure we are all talking 
> the same language. So, here are some of the terminologies as I use them:
>
> > I presumed the black inks for B&W on the 2400 were mixed Ultrachrome.
>
> MIS has a family of "UltraTone" inks. "UltraChrome" is Epson's color 
> inkset.
>
> > Apparently the Carbon 6
>
> "Carbon-6" is the name I use for the inkset made from MIS Eboni MK and 
> the generic base. "Eboni-6" is MIS's pre-mixed and sometimes 
> pre-loaded version of this inkset. I use both, and the same profiles 
> work with both.
>
> > is coming from the UT Eboni,
>
> Eboni MK is used in the UltraTone (UT) family of inks as well as in 
> the Eboni/Carbon-6 family.
>
> The bases that are used to dilute the inks are different and should 
> not be mixed.
>
> The UT base, which (correct me if I'm wrong) MIS is now labeling 
> "ESC-BASEPT-UC" (aka "amber" base?) is for the UT family dilutions and 
> keeps them glossy compatible. It does not work well as a dilution base 
> for Eboni. Most in the past bought the MIS R800 gloss optimizer for 
> diluting the UT inks, as the base was not sold as such.
>
> The Eboni-6 base also did not used to be made available. I'm not sure 
> if MIS is going to do that or just make my generic base components 
> and/or full mix available. I think making the generic base and/or its 
> components available can be beneficial to many and improve the market.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com ~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~ end group email -->
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seth,


>...
> Bottom line is can I use the K4 Eboni and dilute it to LK, LLK, etc?

You can dilute K4 Eboni to make Eboni/Carbon-6 inks that have approximately the same density as the industry standard LK and LLK.

See page 2 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Carbon-6.pdf

Carbon-6, Dilute Eboni Mixing Ratios:
 K = 100% Eboni;      
 C = 30% Eboni, remainder C6 base;     
 M = 18% Eboni;     
 LC = 9% Eboni;     
 LM = 6% Eboni;     
 Y = 2% Eboni; 
    
 LK = 18% Eboni;    
 LLK = 6% Eboni;    

(Note that the density/ink-load curves are not linear and not totally congruent, and these vary with paper.  So don't expect an exact match to the glossy compatible LK densities at all places.)

See also the top of page 4 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf .  There is some uncertainty as to whether the LM-M densities or the LC-C densities work better in K3 printers.  It may depend on which generation of printer.  Both work as far as I know.  Which is the better choice may depend on whether you use the Epson driver or QTR.  Maybe safer to to with the darker ones for the Epson driver and lighter ones for QTR. But, again, either have worked with either approach; the differences are not critical.  


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Our Eboni ink is available under many part numbers as it is the Matte Black for most of our Epson ink sets.  MISPRO-PT-K, K4-PT-K, UT-HEXPT-K, UT-QUADPT-K, EB6-PT-K, UT14-PT-K, UT3D-PT-K, UT7-PT-K, UTBO-PT-K, and EB4-PT-K are all the same ink (I only provided the pint quantities, but they are all available in 4oz, Pint or Gallon)

As for the bases; ESCR1900-PT-OPT,  ESCR800-PT-OPT, and ESC-BASEPT-UC are the same and can only be used with our pigment UltraTone B&W or UltraChrome Compatible color inks.  This base cannot be used with Eboni or and DyeBased inks.

We are currently finishing our new Advanced B&W section to our site which will offer the individual components to Paul's bases, as well as 3 of our common bases, and the most common ink's that Paul recommends for mixing such as Eboni.

-Justin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "sethrus" <seth@> wrote:
> 
> Sorry for chiming in here, but I'd like to be sure we are all talking the same language.  So, here are some of the terminologies as I use them:
> 
> > I presumed the black inks for B&W on the 2400 were mixed Ultrachrome.
> 
> MIS has a family of "UltraTone" inks.  "UltraChrome" is Epson's color inkset.  
> 
> 
> 
> >  Apparently the Carbon 6 
> 
> "Carbon-6" is the name I use for the inkset made from MIS Eboni MK and the generic base.  "Eboni-6" is MIS's pre-mixed and sometimes pre-loaded version of this inkset.  I use both, and the same profiles work with both. 
> 
> >  is coming from the UT Eboni, 
> 
> 
> Eboni MK is used in the UltraTone (UT) family of inks as well as in the Eboni/Carbon-6 family.
> 
> The bases that are used to dilute the inks are different and should not be mixed.  
> 
> The UT base, which (correct me if I'm wrong) MIS is now labeling "ESC-BASEPT-UC" (aka "amber" base?) is for the UT family dilutions and keeps them glossy compatible.  It does not work well as a dilution base for Eboni.  Most in the past bought the MIS R800 gloss optimizer for diluting the UT inks, as the base was not sold as such. 
> 
> The Eboni-6 base also did not used to be made available.  I'm not sure if MIS is going to do that or just make my generic base components and/or full mix available. I think making the generic base and/or its components available can be beneficial to many and improve the market.
> 
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>