Digital BW, The Print

Anyone using UT14 inks in an Epson 3880, or other 3.5 picoliter printer? 

I'm using UT14 in my 1400, and would like to replicate the look of my 1400's prints in a 3880.

Mark

"mccarvill" <mccarvill@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone using UT14 inks in an Epson 3880, or other 3.5 picoliter printer? 
> 
> I'm using UT14 in my 1400, and would like to replicate the look of my 1400's prints in a 3880.


The inks are certainly compatible with 3.5 pl printers.  I've use UT14 LC in an 1100 "EZ" type of single-midtone-density system. 

However, a hextone needs 3 levels of gray -- like LLK, LK, and K. UT14, due to the 1400's 1.5 pl draw and the other goals of that inkset, used a LC that is LK density.  The C (and M) are PKs. For matte paper the MK is enough darker that it works.  For glossy paper, the C &/or M are used to generate the dmax.  In a 3880, you'd have no separation between the UT14 C/M and the PK.

You can make the cool LLK version of UT14 by mixing 30% UT14-LC with 70% MIS R800 glop base.

For the LK and LLK, what I did was make a blend of the C and M channels.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks, Paul.

The one issue I'm still trying to resolve with the 1400 is a magenta cast (Lab A = 3 to 4 between 40%K and 95%K) on Canson Baryta Photographique. 

My setup is:

LC
C
M
LM
LLC = LC 50-50 with GLOP
Y=GLOP for second pass spray

The magenta seems to be coming from the M and LM inks, but when I reduce them the print gets cooler, so I lose neutrality on the Lab B axis.

Any thoughts? 

I love the Canson paper by the way, especially getting 97% of the tonal range between 0 and 100.

Mark 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "mccarvill" <mccarvill@> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone using UT14 inks in an Epson 3880, or other 3.5 picoliter printer? 
> > 
> > I'm using UT14 in my 1400, and would like to replicate the look of my 1400's prints in a 3880.
> 
> 
> The inks are certainly compatible with 3.5 pl printers.  I've use UT14 LC in an 1100 "EZ" type of single-midtone-density system. 
> 
> However, a hextone needs 3 levels of gray -- like LLK, LK, and K. UT14, due to the 1400's 1.5 pl draw and the other goals of that inkset, used a LC that is LK density.  The C (and M) are PKs. For matte paper the MK is enough darker that it works.  For glossy paper, the C &/or M are used to generate the dmax.  In a 3880, you'd have no separation between the UT14 C/M and the PK.
> 
> You can make the cool LLK version of UT14 by mixing 30% UT14-LC with 70% MIS R800 glop base.
> 
> For the LK and LLK, what I did was make a blend of the C and M channels.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Mark wrote:
 ... 
> The one issue I'm still trying to resolve with the 1400 is a magenta cast (Lab A = 3 to 4 between 40%K and 95%K) on Canson Baryta Photographique. 


I'm not sure where that would be coming from.  I used UT14 LC to make an "EZ" type of inkset for the 1100.  (See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1100.pdf .  I changed the name from EZ to avoid confusion with what MIS was offereing for the 1100.)

At any rate, I tested/profiled Canson Baryta with that setup.  The Lab A ranges from Lab A = 1 (the paper white) to Lab A = 1.95 (at 65%).  It ultimately drops as 100% black is approached.

Note that I always look at the values relative to the paper white.  This tends to minimize any read errors from the spetros.

> 
> My setup is:
> 
> LC
> C
> M
> LM
> LLC = LC 50-50 with GLOP
> Y=GLOP for second pass spray
> 
> The magenta seems to be coming from the M and LM inks, but when I reduce them the print gets cooler, so I lose neutrality on the Lab B axis.


Assuming you have UT14 M & LM in your magenta channel, that would be standard MIS warm glossy carbon.  If just MIS glossy carbons are used, the Lab A can rise to over 4.  But there is where the Lab B is close to 14.  That is, it's a virtual sepia tone.  I doubt that has anything to do with a high Lab A in a near neutral print. 

 
> Any thoughts? 


Is it possible there was some actual magenta color still in the setup?

 
> I love the Canson paper by the way, especially getting 97% of the tonal range between 0 and 100.

Baryta gives a very good paper white.  I like what I'm seeing in those papers also.  I profiled a Hahnemuhle Baryta with what I call the 1100 MIS K4-Quad (MIS K4 LLK, 2 LKs, and PK) the other day, and it made a near perfect sepia print.  I'll be getting a sample of Red River's new (don't know if it's out of beta yet) baryta paper next week.  I'm hoping its as good as the Hn. and Canson products.  If so, it'll save us some money.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul wrote:
...
> Is it possible there was some actual magenta color still in the setup?
No, this printer has never had color inks in it.

Yesterday I refilled four of the carts (all but M and LM), and the fresh inks made an improvement. Lab A readings dropped to 1.6 on average, versus 2.3 before the refill, but still peak around 3 between 80 and 95.

Bizarre. The printer is used daily, and I shake the ink bottles before each refill to ensure the pigments are in suspension. I'm wondering if there really can be this much tonal variability between refills. The inks are near their expiry date so maybe that's an issue?

Mark 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> Mark wrote:
>  ... 
> > The one issue I'm still trying to resolve with the 1400 is a magenta cast (Lab A = 3 to 4 between 40%K and 95%K) on Canson Baryta Photographique. 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure where that would be coming from.  I used UT14 LC to make an "EZ" type of inkset for the 1100.  (See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1100.pdf .  I changed the name from EZ to avoid confusion with what MIS was offereing for the 1100.)
> 
> At any rate, I tested/profiled Canson Baryta with that setup.  The Lab A ranges from Lab A = 1 (the paper white) to Lab A = 1.95 (at 65%).  It ultimately drops as 100% black is approached.
> 
> Note that I always look at the values relative to the paper white.  This tends to minimize any read errors from the spetros.
> 
> > 
> > My setup is:
> > 
> > LC
> > C
> > M
> > LM
> > LLC = LC 50-50 with GLOP
> > Y=GLOP for second pass spray
> > 
> > The magenta seems to be coming from the M and LM inks, but when I reduce them the print gets cooler, so I lose neutrality on the Lab B axis.
> 
> 
> Assuming you have UT14 M & LM in your magenta channel, that would be standard MIS warm glossy carbon.  If just MIS glossy carbons are used, the Lab A can rise to over 4.  But there is where the Lab B is close to 14.  That is, it's a virtual sepia tone.  I doubt that has anything to do with a high Lab A in a near neutral print. 
> 
>  
> > Any thoughts? 
> 
> 
> Is it possible there was some actual magenta color still in the setup?
> 
>  
> > I love the Canson paper by the way, especially getting 97% of the tonal range between 0 and 100.
> 
> Baryta gives a very good paper white.  I like what I'm seeing in those papers also.  I profiled a Hahnemuhle Baryta with what I call the 1100 MIS K4-Quad (MIS K4 LLK, 2 LKs, and PK) the other day, and it made a near perfect sepia print.  I'll be getting a sample of Red River's new (don't know if it's out of beta yet) baryta paper next week.  I'm hoping its as good as the Hn. and Canson products.  If so, it'll save us some money.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"mccarvill" <mccarvill@...> wrote:
>
> Paul wrote:
> ...
> > Is it possible there was some actual magenta color still in the setup?

> No, this printer has never had color inks in it.


I might add that a reliable source once mentioned another source of these types of problems.  The ink companies use the same equipment to process different types of pigments.  So, if they have not thoroughly cleaned their equipment, there can be pollution of one ink by a previously processed ink. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

You were right (as usual), Paul. 

I finally got around to retesting this and discovered that the UT14 magenta inks were contaminated with magenta color ink (Lab A up around 5). 

As I mentioned before, this printer has never had color inks in it (apart from UT14), so the problem originated with MIS. The inks have an expiry date of March 13, 2014 in case anyone wants to check theirs.

I've contacted MIS about replacing the magenta UT14 inks. They didn't reply to my March 9 request for help when I first discovered this problem, so we'll see what happens this time 


Mark 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "mccarvill" <mccarvill@> wrote:
> >
> > Paul wrote:
> > ...
> > > Is it possible there was some actual magenta color still in the setup?
> 
> > No, this printer has never had color inks in it.
> 
> 
> I might add that a reliable source once mentioned another source of these types of problems.  The ink companies use the same equipment to process different types of pigments.  So, if they have not thoroughly cleaned their equipment, there can be pollution of one ink by a previously processed ink. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"mccarvill" <mccarvill@...> wrote:
>
> 
> ... the UT14 magenta inks were contaminated with magenta color ink (Lab A up around 5). 


For those who like a very heavy "selenium" toning look ...

I usually shoot for  a  Lab A of from 1 - 2; never negative.  Of course, our measuring instruments are not all that accurate in the neutral range.

I'm sure MIS will take care  of the problem.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> Of course, our measuring instruments are not all that accurate in the neutral range.

Yeah, I was surprised how much spot readings vary with the Spyder 3 spectro. So I've been taking two readings at each patch and averaging them in Excel. 

Mark 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "mccarvill" <mccarvill@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > ... the UT14 magenta inks were contaminated with magenta color ink (Lab A up around 5). 
> 
> 
> For those who like a very heavy "selenium" toning look ...
> 
> I usually shoot for  a  Lab A of from 1 - 2; never negative.  Of course, our measuring instruments are not all that accurate in the neutral range.
> 
> I'm sure MIS will take care  of the problem.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>