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2012-07-10 by Sylvain M.
Hello all, I'm looking for a matte paper (such as HPR, for example), OBA-free, that would give the most neutral tone as possible (or even a little bit cool) with Eboni inksets. Of course the best Dmax is also welcome :o) Could anynone give me an advice? Thanks in advance! Sylvain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2012-07-10 by Ernst Dinkla
On 07/10/2012 08:20 AM, Sylvain M. wrote: > > > Hello all, > > I'm looking for a matte paper (such as HPR, for > example), OBA-free, that would give the most neutral tone as possible > (or even a little bit cool) with Eboni inksets. Of course the best Dmax > is also welcome :o) > > Could anynone give me an advice? > > Thanks in > advance! > > Sylvain With Lab a and b values close to zero you will have a paper that is neutral. With a negative b value it will be cooler. If you keep the cursor on the paper name in SpectrumViz the Lab values of the paper white are shown. For example Somerset Museum Rag 300 gsm, 100% cotton, Lab 97.0 0.4 0.3 340+ paper white spectral plots: http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla Grafische Techniek Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde www.pigment-print.com
2012-07-10 by Sylvain M.
Thx Ernst. However, you give the Lab values for the paper itself only. What I'm looking for is a paper giving neutral tones with EBONI inks, in the high lights as well as in the shadows. Regards Sylvain. On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:41:24 +0200, Ernst Dinkla wrote: > On 07/10/2012 08:20 AM, Sylvain M. wrote: >> Hello all, I'm looking for a matte paper (such as HPR, for example), OBA-free, that would give the most neutral tone as possible (or even a little bit cool) with Eboni inksets. Of course the best Dmax is also welcome :o) Could anynone give me an advice? Thanks in advance! Sylvain > With Lab a and b values close to zero you will have a paper that is neutral. With a negative b value it will be cooler. If you keep the cursor on the paper name in SpectrumViz the Lab values of the paper white are shown. For example Somerset Museum Rag 300 gsm, 100% cotton, Lab 97.0 0.4 0.3 340+ paper white spectral plots: http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm [1] -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla Grafische Techniek Quad, piëzografie, giclée www.pigment-print.com [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm [2] http://www.pigment-print.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2012-07-10 by Ernst Dinkla
On 07/10/2012 11:38 AM, Sylvain M. wrote: > > > Thx Ernst. > > However, you give the Lab values for the paper itself > only. What I'm looking for is a paper giving neutral tones with EBONI > inks, in the high lights as well as in the shadows. > > Regards > > Sylvain. Paul Roark's Eboni-1400 PDF gives a good impression of what Eboni diluted and Eboni Black Only does with various papers. The Eboni is not neutral itself to start with and it will be hard to get a full range neutral without color toning that ink. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla Grafische Techniek Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde www.pigment-print.com
2012-07-10 by Sylvain M.
Yes, this is something I'm aware of... I use the UT14-C ink from MIS in the inkset to compensate. But I would like to go to pure carbon. I'm currently using Hahnemühle (PhotoRag, Bamboo and PR Bright White). In black only mode on Bright White I get something not too warm, but this paper contains OBA. By the way, I had a look on the market: the only "neutral" available pure carbon ink is Jon Cone's Piezography, I'm afraid... Regards Sylvain. On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 14:39:47 +0200, Ernst Dinkla wrote: > On 07/10/2012 11:38 AM, Sylvain M. wrote: >> Thx Ernst. However, you give the Lab values for the paper itself only. What I'm looking for is a paper giving neutral tones with EBONI inks, in the high lights as well as in the shadows. Regards Sylvain. > Paul Roark's Eboni-1400 PDF gives a good impression of what Eboni diluted and Eboni Black Only does with various papers. The Eboni is not neutral itself to start with and it will be hard to get a full range neutral without color toning that ink. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla Grafische Techniek Quad, piëzografie, giclée www.pigment-print.com [1] Links: ------ [1] http://www.pigment-print.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2012-07-10 by Ernst Dinkla
On 07/10/2012 02:50 PM, Sylvain M. wrote: > > > Yes, this is something I'm aware of... I use the UT14-C ink from > MIS in the inkset to compensate. But I would like to go to pure carbon. > I'm currently using Hahnem\ufffdhle (PhotoRag, Bamboo and PR Bright White). > In black only mode on Bright White I get something not too warm, but > this paper contains OBA. > > By the way, I had a look on the market: the > only "neutral" available pure carbon ink is Jon Cone's Piezography, I'm > afraid... > > Regards > > Sylvain. Wonder how pure that carbon is then :-) In a practical sense and for people living outside the US it may be easier to use the HP Vivera source and rely on the good tests results instead of going for the pure carbon goal. The same PDF quotes HP Vivera PK as being neutral and I can add HP Vivera MK in that category too. The Vivera Grey inks can be used as well but more than the PK they tend to give bronzing on most gloss papers. PK diluted with transparent ink media gives better results and will be cheaper. I use an OCP gloss enhancer for that and an HP K5400 with thermal heads to print with, ink and ink medium suit the thermal heads. Paul uses one type of MIS ink medium to do the same for pi\ufffdzo heads. 130 ML or larger carts of HP Vivera inks are not that expensive and easily available. The Photorag Bright White gets warm quite fast in time. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla Grafische Techniek Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde www.pigment-print.com
2012-07-10 by Paul
"Sylvain M." <sylvain@...> wrote: > I'm looking for a matte paper (such as HPR, for > example), OBA-free, that would give the most neutral tone as possible > (or even a little bit cool) with Eboni inksets. Of course the best Dmax > is also welcome :o) > > Could anynone give me an advice? For black only Eboni printing and OBA free papers, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-No-OBA-Paper.pdf This was part of the 1800 3-MK write-up. The tones are the same as those with a 1400 BO, however. For brightened papers, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-OBA-Papers.pdf If the graphs are not self-explanatory, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Paper.pdf For dilute Eboni-6, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf In general, Eboni black only or the 3-MK approach appears to be the closest thing we have to a neutral 100% carbon image. Diluting the Eboni causes the tones to be warmer on most papers. Also, the 1.5 pl printers are a bit warmer than the 3 pl printers with dilute Eboni. For a coated inkjet paper, the Epson Hot Press papers -- both natural and brightened -- should be tried. If toners are used to cool the carbon, I'd recommend OEM inks. Epson LM and LC may appear to have done the best in http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ testing on at least a few papers I've checked. But, all we have are the 100% C and M patches to rely on. Check out the graph on page 6 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf . Some paper takes to little color to neutralize the carbon, that I doubt the fading of top color pigments would be of much consequence. In short, once you find a paper that you like and is relatively neutral, it may be that getting it to exactly the tone you like takes so little color that it's not particularly relevant to longevity. Remember that 100% carbon is a benchmark. The more color added and the quality of the color added are what cause the problems. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2012-07-10 by Pete Bergstrom
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Sylvain M. <sylvain@...>wrote: > > By the way, I had a look on the market: the > only "neutral" available pure carbon ink is Jon Cone's Piezography, I'm > afraid... > I don't believe this is pure carbon (based on information from the website). I happen to use the Piezography neutral inkset and like it a great deal. In terms of color it reminds me of Oriental Seagull paper after a light selenium toning (using Canson Infinity Rag Photo paper). I once put in a sheet of an unfamiliar, high-grade paper with the wrong face for printing, and got an interesting puddle of slightly bluish water with clumped pigment regions, so I've seen firsthand that there is something in the inkset for cooling the image down. Best regards, Pete [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2012-07-11 by Sylvain M.
Thx a lot Paul. I think I'd better stay with HPR. BO mode gives me quite neutral tones in high lights and slightly warm shadows (Lab B just under 4), which is not that bad finally. Last question: I usually consider a tone as neutral when Lab B is between 0 and 2. Am I right? Regards Sylvain. On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:17:01 -0000, Paul wrote: > "Sylvain M." wrote: > >> I'm looking for a matte paper (such as HPR, for example), OBA-free, that would give the most neutral tone as possible (or even a little bit cool) with Eboni inksets. Of course the best Dmax is also welcome :o) Could anynone give me an advice? > For black only Eboni printing and OBA free papers, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-No-OBA-Paper.pdf [1] This was part of the 1800 3-MK write-up. The tones are the same as those with a 1400 BO, however. For brightened papers, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-OBA-Papers.pdf [2] If the graphs are not self-explanatory, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Paper.pdf [3] For dilute Eboni-6, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf [4] In general, Eboni black only or the 3-MK approach appears to be the closest thing we have to a neutral 100% carbon image. Diluting the Eboni causes the tones to be warmer on most papers. Also, the 1.5 pl printers are a bit warmer than the 3 pl printers with dilute Eboni. For a coated inkjet paper, the Epson Hot Press papers -- both natural and brightened -- should be tried. If toners are used to cool the carbon, I'd recommend OEM inks. Epson LM and LC may appear to have done the best in http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ [5] testing on at least a few papers I've checked. But, all we have are the 100% C and M patches to rely on. Check out the graph on page 6 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf [6] . Some paper takes to little color to neutralize the carbon, that I doubt the fading of top color pigments would be of much consequence. In short, once you find a paper that you like and is relatively neutral, it may be that getting it to exactly the tone you like takes so little color that it's not particularly relevant to longevity. Remember that 100% carbon is a benchmark. The more color added and the quality of the color added are what cause the problems. Paul www.PaulRoark.com [7] Links: ------ [1] http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-No-OBA-Paper.pdf [2] http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-OBA-Papers.pdf [3] http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Paper.pdf [4] http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf [5] http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ [6] http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf [7] http://www.PaulRoark.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2012-07-11 by Paul
"Sylvain M." <sylvain@...> wrote: > >... I usually consider a tone as neutral when Lab B is > between 0 and 2. Am I right? > As a practical matter, I think think that is correct. Of course, dead neutral would be Lab A and B = 0. However, a one unit difference is barely perceptible. Actually, I think viewing conditions are huge factor. I have Arches watercolor paper prints on the wall that look very neutral. In fact, however, the paper base is creamy warm (about Lab B = 3), as is the natural paper mat board. The image tone (Eboni-6) peaks out at about 2.5 units above that. Yet, because the eye appears to do a "white balance" on the Arches paper and mat board, the prints look neutral. The image tone, being about 2.5 Lab B units warmer, if we look at the differential between the nearby paper white and maximum image warmth, is close to your estimate of 2 as what people will see as "neutral." Most viewers, seeing the prints without another reference, simple consider then B&W prints -- no obvious tone at all. The mistake many people seem to make is to view their prints and test strips next to their 6500k monitors or next to very bright typing paper. In comparison the prints with even slight warmth look "brown." If those are the conditions that one expects the prints to be viewed in, by all means, use paper with lots of OBAs and inks that are almost half color pigments. For that type of print, I even prefer the Claria/Noritsu dyes on bright, high gloss paper. The point is, lighting and display conditions make a big difference. When I was hanging shows that were a mix of neutral silver-gelatin and inkjet prints, I tried to use inks that would match the silver print tones. While I still keep a silver print hanging in my office for reference, as long as the prints are not side-by-side, no one sees any difference between the silver and Arches/carbon prints. (Actually, I do. The carbon on Arches are usually better.) Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2012-07-11 by C D Tobie
> "Sylvain M." <sylvain@...> wrote: > > > >... I usually consider a tone as neutral when Lab B is > > between 0 and 2. Am I right? Its b*, not B, but yes, both a* and b* should be near zero to indicate neutrality. b* alone only indicates yellow to blue neutrality; a number with a neutral b* value could still be screaming green or bright red. C. David Tobie Global Product Technology Manager Datacolor 5 Princess Road Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA 609.924.2189 www.datacolor.com Phone: 207.685.9248 Mobile: 207.312.0448 Fax: 207.685.4455 Email: cdtobie@... Skype: cdtobie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2012-07-11 by Paul
C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote: > > "Sylvain M." <sylvain@> wrote: > > > > > >... I usually consider a tone as neutral when Lab B is > > > between 0 and 2. Am I right? > > Its b*, not B, ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lab_color_space seems to explain in technical terms the difference between the two Lab notation types: "A Lab color space is a color-opponent space with dimension L for lightness and a and b for the color-opponent dimensions, based on nonlinearly compressed CIE XYZ color space coordinates." "The coordinates of the Hunter 1948 L, a, b color space are L, a, and b. However, Lab is now more often used as an informal abbreviation for the CIE 1976 (L*, a*, b*) color space (or CIELAB). The difference between Hunter and CIE color coordinates is that the CIE coordinates are based on a cube root transformation of the color data, while the Hunter coordinates are based on a square root transformation." Is there a practical difference in the usual B&W gamut? I notice that my Spyder3Print, when measure a test strip, simply lists "L=__, a= __, and b= __" (with no * used). Are these the Hunter 1948 L, a, b, or the CIE 1976 (L*, a*, b*)? Or does it really make no difference? Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2012-07-11 by C D Tobie
On Jul 11, 2012, at 1:39 PM, Paul wrote: > I notice that my Spyder3Print, when measure a test strip, simply lists "L=__, a= __, and b= __" (with no * used). Are these the Hunter 1948 L, a, b, or the CIE 1976 (L*, a*, b*)? Or does it really make no difference? ICCLab, actually, which is based on CieLab, but with the values limited to 0-100 for L, and positive/neg 127/128 for a and b. C. David Tobie Global Product Technology Manager Datacolor 5 Princess Road Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA 609.924.2189 www.datacolor.com Phone: 207.685.9248 Mobile: 207.312.0448 Fax: 207.685.4455 Email: cdtobie@... Skype: cdtobie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]