Digital BW, The Print

Having used all three on different inks, printers, etc for well over a 
year, I've begun to wonder why and what is happening.

I had a year of engineering chemistry 25 years ago, but the brain 
cells storing the info have long since shriveled up breathing stop 
bath and later sniffing ink bottles.

I only remember that in the chem labs we always used a three step 
process to clean lab equipment. We rinsed with distilled H2O, alcohol, 
and I think- acetone. I don't remember the exact order, but alcohol 
was in the middle, because it is miscible in both polar and non-polar 
molecules. IOW, alcohol disolves both water based stuff and oil-ketone 
based stuff. Of couse we never used Windex or Fantastik, and these are 
composed of different substances mixed together.

I'm starting to formulate some ideas to keep an average printer 
running MIS or PiezoBW inks happy. Putting drops on the Parking Pad 
has long been a favorite for everyone, for example. I'm trying to 
watch my printer very carefully as I have a lot of ink problems, more 
than most. To continue with this one example, as I live in an arid 
climate and high altitude (less air pressure), I might want to put 
drops on pad not only to clear a clog but as a preventative to keep it 
from drying out. Therefore, a solvent that not only would dissolve 
clogs but not evaporate quickly or leave a harmful residue (say a 
perfume) on pad would be desirable.

That's just one example, but an important one. So, as this is beyond 
my knowledge, I'ld like to throw the question of the virtues of the 
various substances we use out to you chemistry folks, I know you're 
out there. Admittily, a complex issue.

I'm currently using MIS VM inkset, but recognise this issue covers 
other inks as well. The only other thing that I could add as a guess 
is that I think MIS uses Epson dye base to make even their pig inks, 
but I'm not sure. If this is true, there's a good bet that diethylene 
glycol is in the mix, since Epson OEM carts have that info printed on 
them.
Jim H.

on 3/6/02 11:39 AM, jimhayes361 wrote:

> Therefore, a solvent that not only would dissolve
> clogs but not evaporate quickly or leave a harmful residue (say a
> perfume) on pad would be desirable.

I don't know if it fits the bill but I would think the clear ink base that
both MIS and Mediastreet sell (I don't know what MIS calls theirs, but
Mediastreet's is Jet Jrano) would be the safest thing.

I also wonder how many of our clogs are really due more to air blocks than
inks blocks. It's hard to know because they can take similar cures. IOW,
putting solvent on the pad and letting it sit gives the air time to
dissipate, and cleaning cycles push air out. Anyway, you know more about
this than most of us so I'm really just asking.

Todd

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> on 3/6/02 11:39 AM, jimhayes361 wrote:
> 
> > Therefore, a solvent that not only would dissolve
> > clogs but not evaporate quickly or leave a harmful residue (say a
> > perfume) on pad would be desirable.
> 
> I don't know if it fits the bill but I would think the clear ink 
base that
> both MIS and Mediastreet sell (I don't know what MIS calls theirs, 
but
> Mediastreet's is Jet Jrano) would be the safest thing.

You know, I WAS thinking of trying out some MIS clear base. I didn't 
know it was Jrano, I thought that was more aggresive. Good point. I 
was thinking someone could elaborate on the base stock to the MIS VM. 

> 
> I also wonder how many of our clogs are really due more to air 
blocks than
> inks blocks. It's hard to know because they can take similar cures.

This is indeed the most frustrating thing about printers in general: 
there's no way to isolate all the variables or find the exact culprit- 
it hides behind at least two or three posible causes.
 
 Anyway, you know more 
about
> this than most of us so I'm really just asking.



When it comes to pig inks in a printhead, it's hocus-pocus. I had a 
problem or two like this at HP handed me: the answer is test, test, 
test, and statistics. That would be expensive for us to do, trying to 
make our printers fail in numerous ways. I really have no answers. I 
am trained to rake through comments made by others trying to eliminate 
ambiguous or ill defined statements, and reformulate ideas to be 
understood. And have others do it to me (with much better 
alacrity<g>). If you work for HP R&D this happens every day you show 
up- or it was the culture ten years ago. But I have no special 
knowledge, other than what I picked up here and the usual sites and 
people.

I'm at a loss with chemistry though, being a mechanical engineer, and 
that ten years ago.
Jim H

 
> 
> Todd

I've been peaking on this GREAT newsgroup for 2 months now, learning 
a lot, and finally something I can probably contribute to. Part of my 
background is in flexo printing (the 50" web, 800 ft/min, 8-colors 
CMYK, $5 million dollar type of machines) as well as chemistry, 
amateur photograph and for 3 mths proud owner of a Canon S800 to get 
started in digital printing.

The inks we use in flexo printing are somewhat similar to the stuff 
used for inkjets (some solvent, water, carrier and pigments etc...). 
In my opinion, you certainly do NOT want to use the clear ink. It 
contains the carrier(or base) with the solvents but no pigments, and 
that carrier will dry and stick to the pad and to the printhead. Not 
good...

Jim, your comments were absolutely correct on acetone, water, 
solvents evaporating etc... Most solvents that dissolve the 
base/pigment combination (non-polar) do evaporate. Some that do not 
are oils (as in olive oil, kitchen oils or motor oil). But they do 
not have a good dissolving power, and if a liquid does not evaporate, 
I am fairly sure that there will be some sticking to the printhead 
and causing trouble printing.

Try to go for the solvents that do evaporate the slowest, and for 
that the glycols are the best option. Careful not to smell them too 
much though, some are toxic...

Hope this helped,
Erik.

PS: on a side question, is there anyone close to the Santa Monica 
(CA) Area that has a shop displaying quads? I am printing BW (and 
color) on my S800 using OEM (or MIS) dyes, on a variety of papers, 
and after MUCH MUCH work/adjustments am happy with the results (no 
metamerism that I can tell, no color cast except when on purpose, 
nice blacks,...). I would like to compare that with some true quads 
to see if it's worth converting...



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jimhayes361" 
<jimhayes@j...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> 
> wrote:
> > on 3/6/02 11:39 AM, jimhayes361 wrote:
> > 
> > > Therefore, a solvent that not only would dissolve
> > > clogs but not evaporate quickly or leave a harmful residue (say 
a
> > > perfume) on pad would be desirable.
> > 
> > I don't know if it fits the bill but I would think the clear ink 
> base that
> > both MIS and Mediastreet sell (I don't know what MIS calls 
theirs, 
> but
> > Mediastreet's is Jet Jrano) would be the safest thing.
> 
> You know, I WAS thinking of trying out some MIS clear base. I 
didn't 
> know it was Jrano, I thought that was more aggresive. Good point. I 
> was thinking someone could elaborate on the base stock to the MIS 
VM. 
> 
> > 
> > I also wonder how many of our clogs are really due more to air 
> blocks than
> > inks blocks. It's hard to know because they can take similar 
cures.
> 
> This is indeed the most frustrating thing about printers in 
general: 
> there's no way to isolate all the variables or find the exact 
culprit- 
> it hides behind at least two or three posible causes.
>  
>  Anyway, you know more 
> about
> > this than most of us so I'm really just asking.
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes to pig inks in a printhead, it's hocus-pocus. I had a 
> problem or two like this at HP handed me: the answer is test, test, 
> test, and statistics. That would be expensive for us to do, trying 
to 
> make our printers fail in numerous ways. I really have no answers. 
I 
> am trained to rake through comments made by others trying to 
eliminate 
> ambiguous or ill defined statements, and reformulate ideas to be 
> understood. And have others do it to me (with much better 
> alacrity<g>). If you work for HP R&D this happens every day you 
show 
> up- or it was the culture ten years ago. But I have no special 
> knowledge, other than what I picked up here and the usual sites and 
> people.
> 
> I'm at a loss with chemistry though, being a mechanical engineer, 
and 

> that ten years ago.
> Jim H
> 
>  
> > 
> > Todd

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "erikhuneker" 
<erik.huneker@p...> wrote:
 Part of 
my 
> background is in flexo printing (the 50" web, 800 ft/min, 8-colors 
> CMYK, $5 million dollar type of machines)

Oh yeah, you mean the web press stuff. Good gosh I at one point 
briefly prepared plates for a 6 color web. Huge monsters. Never ran 
the darn thing though, yikes. I like keeping all my fingers.
 Would the inks be similar then?

 as well as chemistry, 
> amateur photograph and for 3 mths proud owner of a Canon S800 to get 
> started in digital printing.


Yes, but the Canon uses different technology, not Piezo but some form 
of thermal I think- the ink would be way less viscous I imagine.

> 
> The inks we use in flexo printing are somewhat similar to the stuff 
> used for inkjets (some solvent, water, carrier and pigments etc...).

like Epson or more like Canon or HP tho...maybe they're all 
reasonable close when it comes to chemical makeup?
 
> In my opinion, you certainly do NOT want to use the clear ink. It 
> contains the carrier(or base) with the solvents but no pigments, and 
> that carrier will dry and stick to the pad and to the printhead. Not 
> good...

Then the mechanism is if I have a puddle of clear ink base, the 
solvent will evaporate out leaving the carrier which will gunk up. If 
this is the case, if I now take a drop of MIS pigment ink and put a 
puddle down, I'll be left with the carrier and the pigment as gunk. 
Wouldn't this happen if a person did too many cleaning cycles and 
overwhelmed the vacuum pump hooked under the parking pad?
Just thinking out loud...

> 
> Jim, your comments were absolutely correct on acetone, water, 
> solvents evaporating etc...

hhmmm..ok. Looong time ago I studied that stuff.<g> 

 Most solvents that dissolve the 
> base/pigment combination (non-polar) do evaporate.

i.e. water-based solvents.


 Some that do not 
> are oils (as in olive oil, kitchen oils or motor oil). But they do 
> not have a good dissolving power, and if a liquid does not 
evaporate, 
> I am fairly sure that there will be some sticking to the printhead 
> and causing trouble printing.


to make it clear to a gearhead...are you saying I want to put on the 
little parking pad a water-based solvent that will evaporate 
completely, but slowly? Or do I misunderstand?

Since Fantastik is for cleaning kitchen grease, it is then a polar 
solvent? This can't be true, as I can spray it on dried ink and it 
disloves/dilutes it.

> 
> Try to go for the solvents that do evaporate the slowest, and for 
> that the glycols are the best option. Careful not to smell them too 
> much though, some are toxic...

Well, I was thinking the clear Epson base had di-ethylene glycol in 
it. But maybe that's the solvent, and there's also a killer carrier 
mixed in.

If I restricted to Windex, Fantastik, or alcohol, I think I would then 
remove alcohol from the list, as I think it evaporates faster than the 
other two mixtures. I think this may leave me with Fantastik as being 
the better solvent with a slow evaporation rate.

Perhaps you can suggest a glycol that would be relatively safe to 
handle and easy to obtain. Di-ethylene glycol didn't look exactly 
harmless, but what do I know?

> 
> Hope this helped,

Yes it did, although as you see, it raised more questions. Where I 
came from, that was usually a good sign tho<g>.
Jim H.
> Erik.
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jimhayes361" 
> <jimhayes@j...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
> <tflash@e...> 
> > wrote:
> > > on 3/6/02 11:39 AM, jimhayes361 wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Therefore, a solvent that not only would dissolve
> > > > clogs but not evaporate quickly or leave a harmful residue 
(say 

> a
> > > > perfume) on pad would be desirable.
> > >

My concern is the possible crossive effects of Windex (ammonia) on 
the print heads.  Any info on that?

Jim

Alan,
Thanks for the peek at a print head!
Does anyone know what is in KOH-I-NOOR pen cleaner.  That stuff says 
"non-toxic" and will dissolve India Ink.

Cheers,   Jim R.