Digital BW, The Print

Well I think the cloud thing has kinda been beat to death.. were all big boys n girls so whatever we do is just fine.. 

So moving over..Last week a shooter brought of several images all of which except a few were product shots done in the studio.. he also had a few model shots and  a few scenics on the card.. 

I have to be honest with you guys I've heard the term Foveon sensor but really had no clue ..so most here are way ahead of me would be my guess.. They were all shot with a Sigma SD1 15 MP camera.. So a 3 layered sensor each being 15MP.. NO BAYER PATTERN.. I had to install some software he brought with him to initially process the images then output them so I could bring into PS and LR.. Once thru all that I  got to really look at the images.. they were quite frankly pretty awesome.. I was looking at tonality transitions that just seemed really incredibly smooth, way punchier colors from the git go and the sharpness of these images was mind blowing.. So you get the drift.. Also apparently you can remove the IR filter from this camera easily.. 

Ok so to get to it ...why is this set up in the closet..I just don't get why this technology has not been embraced. I am really trying to dig into this a bit so I figure their must be some experience on this group with it.. I did a post on the IR group and got no responces at all. It was as if they never heard of it.  Are any of you familiar or experienced with it? 

jimbo

Ok so to get to it ...why is this set up in the closet..I just don't get why
this technology has not been embraced. I am really trying to dig into this a
bit so I figure their must be some experience on this group with it.. I did
a post on the IR group and got no responces at all. It was as if they never
heard of it.  Are any of you familiar or experienced with it?


The biggest reason is lousy marketing:

1. Price started out waaaaaay too high because they got greedy. Instead of
competing with better technology at a similar price, they chose to compete
with better technology at an absurd price.
2. Their Marketing department decided to call a 5 megapixel sensor a 15
megapixel sensor (they summed the 5 megapixels of each of the three layers).
People took offense at this ploy and refused to buy.
What they are doing now, I don't know. And I don't much care. They are like
Beta Max. They WILL be left behind in the dust and I don't plan on getting
stuck once again with a pile of useless lenses that don't mount on anything
else. (Bitter Sony a900 owner.)


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

It looks like it's set up to only take Sigma lenses but I've tracked down a
lens plate for Leica R lenses and their is apparently someone doing a camera
rework that will let one use Nikon AIs lenses.. If I could get the body to
accept my lenses I'd honestly be tempted maybe. Anyway I'm just trying to
understand more right now.. You can't import the files from the SD1 into LR
..  The whole thing is kinda weird as Sigma makes lenses for virtually any
camera maker  but this with thing their keeping it in a box or so it seems.

Their real 15 (claimed 45) megapixel sensor will outperform other
manufacturers real 15 megapixel cameras, or so I have heard. The problem is
that you can buy four or five real 25 megapixel cameras for what one of
their 15 megapixel cameras costs, with change left over. AND(!) you have to
use overpriced, low quality Sigma lenses to boot! I looked and looked at
these cameras a few years ago and could not find justification for buying
one. And, I just went to their web site and it appears they haven't changed
their marketing plans at all.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

I agree David. As an owner of an a900 and a great prime 35 mm lens I cannot see the rationale. I have not done a definitive comparison, but I would doubt the camera could compare.

  david emerick  
  http://davidemerick.com
  http://www.blurb.com/b/4271828-36-missile-silos

> On Nov 28, 2013, at 12:07 PM, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
> 
> It looks like it's set up to only take Sigma lenses but I've tracked down a lens plate for Leica R lenses and their is apparently someone doing a camera rework that will let one use Nikon AIs lenses.. If I could get the body to accept my lenses I'd honestly be tempted maybe. Anyway I'm just trying to understand more right now.. You can't import the files from the SD1 into LR ..  The whole thing is kinda weird as Sigma makes lenses for virtually any camera maker  but this with thing their keeping it in a box or so it seems.
> 
> Their real 15 (claimed 45) megapixel sensor will outperform other manufacturers real 15 megapixel cameras, or so I have heard. The problem is that you can buy four or five real 25 megapixel cameras for what one of their 15 megapixel cameras costs, with change left over. AND(!) you have to use overpriced, low quality Sigma lenses to boot! I looked and looked at these cameras a few years ago and could not find justification for buying one. And, I just went to their web site and it appears they haven't changed their marketing plans at all.
> 
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> ___________________
> 
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
> 
> www.davidkachel.com
> david@davidkachel.com
> 
> Gallery:
> www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
> director@reddoorfinephotographs.com
> 
> PO Box  1893
> Alpine, TX 79831
> (432) 386-5787
>

On 11/28/2013 06:07 PM, David Kachel wrote:
> It looks like it's set up to only take Sigma lenses but I've tracked
> down a lens plate for Leica R lenses and their is apparently someone
> doing a camera rework that will let one use Nikon AIs lenses.. If I
> could get the body to accept my lenses I'd honestly be tempted maybe.
> Anyway I'm just trying to understand more right now.. You can't import
> the files from the SD1 into LR ..  The whole thing is kinda weird as
> Sigma makes lenses for virtually any camera maker  but this with thing
> their keeping it in a box or so it seems.
>
> Their real 15 (claimed 45) megapixel sensor will outperform other
> manufacturers real 15 megapixel cameras, or so I have heard. The problem
> is that you can buy four or five real 25 megapixel cameras for what one
> of their 15 megapixel cameras costs, with change left over. AND(!) you
> have to use overpriced, low quality Sigma lenses to boot! I looked and
> looked at these cameras a few years ago and could not find justification
> for buying one. And, I just went to their web site and it appears they
> haven't changed their marketing plans at all.
>
>
> David Kachel

The Fovean sensor can not keep up with the progress in varieties of the 
Bayer design sensor. Not in price and in several sensor aspects like low 
light performance.

Not in relation to the lenses on the Fovean models that I do not know 
but Sigma has some ranges of lenses aiming at different quality demands. 
Its highest level range is one no lens manufacturer should be ashamed of 
and Sigma goes in that direction (has to) with Samyang taking position 
at another quality level. The Sigma macro lenses had an excellent 
reputation and they still have that quality on the high resolution FF 
sensors of today. The 70mm 2.8 is an outstanding lens. DPreview just put 
a summary of remarkable third party lenses on its site. Not Touit class 
probably but enough quality aboard. DxO, ColorFoto, PhotoZone show that 
with good test results. You can have overpriced quality from many brands 
included the best names.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
>
> It looks like it's set up to only take Sigma lenses but I've tracked down a
> lens plate for Leica R lenses and their is apparently someone doing a camera
> rework that will let one use Nikon AIs lenses.. If I could get the body to
> accept my lenses I'd honestly be tempted maybe. Anyway I'm just trying to
> understand more right now.. You can't import the files from the SD1 into LR
> ..  The whole thing is kinda weird as Sigma makes lenses for virtually any
> camera maker  but this with thing their keeping it in a box or so it seems.
> 
> Their real 15 (claimed 45) megapixel sensor will outperform other
> manufacturers real 15 megapixel cameras, or so I have heard. The problem is
> that you can buy four or five real 25 megapixel cameras for what one of
> their 15 megapixel cameras costs, with change left over. AND(!) you have to
> use overpriced, low quality Sigma lenses to boot! I looked and looked at
> these cameras a few years ago and could not find justification for buying
> one. And, I just went to their web site and it appears they haven't changed
> their marketing plans at all.
> 
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> ___________________
> 
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
> 
> www.davidkachel.com
> david@...
> 
> Gallery:
> www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
> director@...
> 
> PO Box  1893
> Alpine, TX 79831
> (432) 386-5787
>
I've been using a Sigma SD15 Foveon sensor camera for over a year now, modified for my Nikon lenses with the excellent conversion kit purchased form Sigmcumlaude.com, which provides similar kits for use of other brand lenses with certain Sigma Foveon cameras, i.e., Leica M-mount lenses.

On 28/11/2013 15:00, jimbo wrote:
> Ok so to get to it ...why is this set up in the closet..I just don't get
> why this technology has not been embraced.

Probably because Sigma have not managed to get their sensors used in any 
of the major brands like Canon/Nikon. Also the lower pixel count is a 
misfit with marketing bullets (phony, I know, but the average punter won't 
want to tackle the complexity of the explanation). And lastly because 
Foveon has inherently lower sensitivity and susceptibility to noise, 
thanks to the layered photosite topology (less light gets to the bottom of 
the well).

-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

Tony

I tried to look at your site.   Noted it's not working.   "Bandwidth Exceeded"

Paul

Sent from my iPhone 📷

> On Nov 30, 2013, at 10:31 AM, Tony Sleep <TonySleep@...> wrote:
> 
> On 28/11/2013 15:00, jimbo wrote:
> > Ok so to get to it ...why is this set up in the closet..I just don't get
> > why this technology has not been embraced.
> 
> Probably because Sigma have not managed to get their sensors used in any 
> of the major brands like Canon/Nikon. Also the lower pixel count is a 
> misfit with marketing bullets (phony, I know, but the average punter won't 
> want to tackle the complexity of the explanation). And lastly because 
> Foveon has inherently lower sensitivity and susceptibility to noise, 
> thanks to the layered photosite topology (less light gets to the bottom of 
> the well).
> 
> -- 
> Regards
> 
> Tony Sleep
> http://tonysleep.co.uk
> 
>

For what it is worth I have spent most of my life in the heart of the Silicon Valley in the Semiconductor and Chip Business.

From what I recall the Foveon company was started in the late 90s by some silicon valley legends.   I won’t say this was a hobby company but it was not their first big deal by any means.   The company started out I believe making chips and camera’s unique for portraits.   It used 3 chips one for Red, Green and Blue then combined the images.   This evolved to a single chip that was intend to emulate film (light passing through layers).    As I recall much of the initial interest by Foveon was to license the technology or sell chips to the camera companies.    At the time I thought they were trying to control the sensor market much the way Intel controls the CPU market for PC’s.   That was/is the goal in Silicon valley.     In any event that model never worked.    The only licensee was Sigma.   Somewhere in the past 5 or 6 years Sigma purchased the Foveon company.

At least that is how I recall it.

Regards,
Paul

On Nov 30, 2013, at 10:31 AM, Tony Sleep <TonySleep@...> wrote:

> On 28/11/2013 15:00, jimbo wrote:
> > Ok so to get to it ...why is this set up in the closet..I just don't get
> > why this technology has not been embraced.
> 
> Probably because Sigma have not managed to get their sensors used in any 
> of the major brands like Canon/Nikon. Also the lower pixel count is a 
> misfit with marketing bullets (phony, I know, but the average punter won't 
> want to tackle the complexity of the explanation). And lastly because 
> Foveon has inherently lower sensitivity and susceptibility to noise, 
> thanks to the layered photosite topology (less light gets to the bottom of 
> the well).
> 
> -- 
> Regards
> 
> Tony Sleep
> http://tonysleep.co.uk
> 
> 
>

I think you are largely correct... Pretty much all of the comments posted have been mostly negative.. Clearly these cameras do not have the capability performance wise of a Nikon or a Canon and several others.. I guess I'm down to that Sigma must be pretty poor business folks.. As far as the technology not being functional for photography that is BS especially I'd say after my recent chance to see some really great images on my own equipment here .. Granted they are not the tools that our current cameras are but in a narrower slot of function they certainly do not function any less and in a couple of areas at least from what I saw I'd say more. So I just feel it's still an underdeveloped technology and likely in the hands of the wrong owner. 

jimbo  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Paul Grant 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 12:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Foveon sensor.. ?????


    
  For what it is worth I have spent most of my life in the heart of the Silicon Valley in the Semiconductor and Chip Business.



  From what I recall the Foveon company was started in the late 90s by some silicon valley legends.   I won’t say this was a hobby company but it was not their first big deal by any means.   The company started out I believe making chips and camera’s unique for portraits.   It used 3 chips one for Red, Green and Blue then combined the images.   This evolved to a single chip that was intend to emulate film (light passing through layers).    As I recall much of the initial interest by Foveon was to license the technology or sell chips to the camera companies.    At the time I thought they were trying to control the sensor market much the way Intel controls the CPU market for PC’s.   That was/is the goal in Silicon valley.     In any event that model never worked.    The only licensee was Sigma.   Somewhere in the past 5 or 6 years Sigma purchased the Foveon company.


  At least that is how I recall it.


  Regards,
  Paul


  On Nov 30, 2013, at 10:31 AM, Tony Sleep <TonySleep@...> wrote:


    On 28/11/2013 15:00, jimbo wrote:
    > Ok so to get to it ...why is this set up in the closet..I just don't get
    > why this technology has not been embraced.

    Probably because Sigma have not managed to get their sensors used in any 
    of the major brands like Canon/Nikon. Also the lower pixel count is a 
    misfit with marketing bullets (phony, I know, but the average punter won't 
    want to tackle the complexity of the explanation). And lastly because 
    Foveon has inherently lower sensitivity and susceptibility to noise, 
    thanks to the layered photosite topology (less light gets to the bottom of 
    the well).

    -- 
    Regards

    Tony Sleep
    http://tonysleep.co.uk







  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3629/6880 - Release Date: 11/30/13

I bought the Sigma SD9 some years back to take a look at the Foveon.  It was advertised as a 10 MP camera - when it fact it was a 3.3 MP camera.  The issues with it were if you could shoot at ISO 100 - it was about alike slide film - about 5 to 6 stops of dynamic range.  If you had to shoot above ISO 100 the went down quickly.  At ISO 400 the chroma noise was horrible.  This was a camera you would use when you would shoot ISO 100 film. 

I bought it after the price dropped so got it for a pretty good price so I didn't lose much when I sold it. I am sure the current incarnation is better.  However, the real issue is if you have bright sunlight it will perform well.  It's a lot like ISO 100 film.  If you have a non-optimal light source or low light, the generated RGB (it generated RGB through a conversion of the three channels) is poor.  I've seen some monochrome images of the same image from each of the channels.  These look like B&W images from a sensor with different spectral responses - which is what they are.  However, there is not a lot of difference between them.  The top layer ( what Sigma calls Blue ) is basically white light.  The bottom layer (what Sigma calls Red) looks like the top channel with a mild yellow (8) filter added.  The middle channel (what Sigma calls Green) is somewhere in between.  In non sun light or low light - the Foveon produces poor results.  They haven't quite figured out the white balance thing.  

The newest sensor is 15 MP - which adds up to 45 million detector outputs.  That's a lot of storage and a lot of processing needed to not be able to compare to a D800 or D800E. 

Truman

On Nov 30, 2013, at 3:20 PM, jimbo <mrjimbo@...> wrote:

> 
> 
> I think you are largely correct... Pretty much all of the comments posted have been mostly negative.. Clearly these cameras do not have the capability performance wise of a Nikon or a Canon and several others.. I guess I'm down to that Sigma must be pretty poor business folks.. As far as the technology not being functional for photography that is BS especially I'd say after my recent chance to see some really great images on my own equipment here .. Granted they are not the tools that our current cameras are but in a narrower slot of function they certainly do not function any less and in a couple of areas at least from what I saw I'd say more. So I just feel it's still an underdeveloped technology and likely in the hands of the wrong owner. 
>  
> jimbo  ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Grant
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 12:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Foveon sensor.. ?????
> 
>  
> For what it is worth I have spent most of my life in the heart of the Silicon Valley in the Semiconductor and Chip Business.
> 
> 
> From what I recall the Foveon company was started in the late 90s by some silicon valley legends.   I won’t say this was a hobby company but it was not their first big deal by any means.   The company started out I believe making chips and camera’s unique for portraits.   It used 3 chips one for Red, Green and Blue then combined the images.   This evolved to a single chip that was intend to emulate film (light passing through layers).    As I recall much of the initial interest by Foveon was to license the technology or sell chips to the camera companies.    At the time I thought they were trying to control the sensor market much the way Intel controls the CPU market for PC’s.   That was/is the goal in Silicon valley.     In any event that model never worked.    The only licensee was Sigma.   Somewhere in the past 5 or 6 years Sigma purchased the Foveon company.
> 
> At least that is how I recall it.
> 
> Regards,
> Paul
> 
> On Nov 30, 2013, at 10:31 AM, Tony Sleep <TonySleep@...> wrote:
> 
>> On 28/11/2013 15:00, jimbo wrote:
>> > Ok so to get to it ...why is this set up in the closet..I just don't get
>> > why this technology has not been embraced.
>> 
>> Probably because Sigma have not managed to get their sensors used in any 
>> of the major brands like Canon/Nikon. Also the lower pixel count is a 
>> misfit with marketing bullets (phony, I know, but the average punter won't 
>> want to tackle the complexity of the explanation). And lastly because 
>> Foveon has inherently lower sensitivity and susceptibility to noise, 
>> thanks to the layered photosite topology (less light gets to the bottom of 
>> the well).
>> 
>> -- 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Tony Sleep
>> http://tonysleep.co.uk
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3629/6880 - Release Date: 11/30/13
> 
> 
> 

"I weep for the liberty of my country when I see at this early day of its successful experiment that corruption has been imputed to many members of the House of Representatives, and the rights of the people have been bartered for promises of office." Andrew Jackson