Digital BW, The Print

I was active in this group ten years ago.  (Time flies, eh?)  I ended up selling my Epson 7600 and returning to the darkroom.

I just got my first digital camera, and thought I should revisit printing -- a lot happens in ten years, right?  So much, that I'm not sure how to make up for lost time.  I visited B+H last week.  The salesman said that the Canon Pro series were much less prone to clogging than the Epsons.  

I don't mean to clog the group with lots of traffic about basic questions.  But if someone would be kind enough to take the time to catch me up, (offlist is fine, I'm at sanders@mcnew.net) I would be grateful.  I'm looking for basic guidance into whether the Canon machines are worth considering, and whether the new printers and OEM inksets are good enough to avoid RIPs and third-party inksets, and whether any of the dye-based inks are worth considering for B+W printmaking.  A bigger printer would be nicer, but for a reintroduction to the medium a top-quality 8x10 printer would be fine for now.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who chooses to burn the time on a new oldtimer.

Regards,

Sanders McNew

I am on a similar journey and would appreciate the same opinions. I am a past user (~10 years ago) of an Epson printer fitted with an after market ink set. I shot film and then scanned negs with a Nikon scanner and printed the digitized images in B&W. Now, after a longish hiatus, I have bought a proper digital camera and am pretty much starting from scratch re: printer/ink units. I'd sure like to hear the answers asked by Sanders. Thank you much, Jack in Tucson

Hi David:

 

I am on the same quest as Sander, but perhaps a bit further along: Coming
from completely analog and LF and now considering digital with ink jet
printing.

 

Consequently, I wonder if you might have a moment to comment on Jon Cone's
inks as used in the Epson printers.  Do you feel that the tonal range and
print quality exceeds the results that one can achieve with careful work (
editing to the tonal values one wants, etc. ) using the K3 Epson inks?
Indeed, in the set up that you provided for one of your printers, are the 6
black and white inks from Jon's atelier?

 

Thanks for any comments.

 

Elliot

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Kachel
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 12:14 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Returning member needs the straight dope

 

  

I just got my first digital camera, and thought I should revisit printing --
a lot happens in ten years, right? So much, that I'm not sure how to make up
for lost time. I visited B+H last week. The salesman said that the Canon Pro
series were much less prone to clogging than the Epsons. 

 

Sanders,

 

I am assuming your primary pursuit is B&W, since you asked on this list.

 

When you print B&W with an OEM color ink set you end up having to repeatedly
buy inks you don't actually need very much. Their (Canon, Epson, HP)
algorithms mix in color inks to get the desired gray tone effect in what
they consider an optimal way, but in large part the color inks are just
expensive place holders, unless you are toning your B&W images. Even then,
you will still have a couple of inks that aren't used.

 

With Canon printers, you have to keep two extra ink slots filled with color
inks you don't need. A pointless additional expense. (I've only looked at a
couple of Canon printers. They may not all be this way.)

 

Also, if you buy a Canon printer, then the use of B&W aftermarket ink sets
is permanently  closed off to you. Only Epson printers are open to this
approach in a practical way due to the availability of cartridges, inks and
QTR, especially. And even with Epson printers, you have to buy one for which
aftermarket refillable cartridges exist. They are not available for all
models.    

 

If you will be printing some color and can buy only one printer, the choice
is clearly Epson. Their Advanced Black and White system will allow you to
get quality B&W images more long-lasting than Canon's and still be able to
print color. I personally don't care for ABW, but I am after print tones
most other photographers don't want. Most people using ABW are very pleased
with it.  (I know you didn't ask about HP printers, but just in case, BITE
YOUR TONGUE!!!)

 

Probably the best printer to get is the Epson 3880. It is about $1100,
depending on sales, rebates, etc., and will take a beating. I have a 3800 I
started seriously abusing with my ignorance about five years ago. It has
aftermarket B&W inks in it and just recently gave me a totally clear nozzle
check which it hadn't done for years! Apparently, they have some sort of on
board healing!!    ;-)

 

My setup now is a 3880 with OEM color inks, and the 3800 with six B&W inks
and two color toners. Or, you can follow Paul's game plan and have a 1400 or
1440 with aftermarket color inks in it for those rare color jobs that don't
need maximum permanence.

 

The Canons are pricier and far less versatile. No brainer.

 

David Kachel

 

___________________

 

Artist-Photographer

Fine B&W Photographs

 

www.davidkachel.com

david@...

 

Gallery:

www.reddoorfinephotographs.com

director@...

 

PO Box  1893

Alpine, TX 79831

(432) 386-5787

Welcome back Sanders,

The printer is the obvious end-point device but you also need to consider the software side of B&W printing as well. Epson OEM drivers are solid but some of us elect to use the QTR rip & Print Tool. This is due to the inflexibility of Adobe Photoshop & the Epson OEM printer driver.

For example, using QTR Rip you are able to isolate the 3 black inks from the colored inks and as David pointed out, when you print in Advanced B&W mode, Epson printer drivers also add in some colors to get the tones you want. Using a RIP, you are able to choose which inks to use, how much of each, and have the ability to create customized tones. I am not saying you cant do this with Epson ABW, I just find it easier to create a customized curve for the type of paper & printer.

I recently entered a B&W in a local art show and received great results - took Gold for best photo. Most people could not believe that I used an Epson R2400 and the Ultrachrome 3K inkset. It was because I used a QTR and a customized profile and ONLY the 3 blacks. The inks are fairly neutral but the Epson Exhibition Fiber forced everything to a deep-rich brown. Easy to print more copies of the same print or different sizes while maintaining consistency and I think that is the key to digital B&W printing.

Consequently, I wonder if you might have a moment to comment on Jon Cone's
inks as used in the Epson printers.  Do you feel that the tonal range and
print quality exceeds the results that one can achieve with careful work (
editing to the tonal values one wants, etc. ) using the K3 Epson inks?
Indeed, in the set up that you provided for one of your printers, are the 6
black and white inks from Jon's atelier?

Elliot,

I have never used Cone's inks. I found the pricing and the customer service
at inksupply.com much more appealing.
I did initially buy a set of refillable cartridges from Cone. I had to buy a
replacement set elsewhere.

The simple fact that Cone's ink sets are multiple gray inks would logically
make for a better gray scale result than EOM inks that mix in colors with
the grays and therefore are going to look different under different
lighting. So, yes, you will absolutely get better results than OEM with
Cone's B&W inks and also with Inksupply's inks.

I don't think "careful work" plays much of a role. The printer will apply
OEM inks as it deems necessary and the only thing you can do to exercise any
control over that is to use ABW, which STILL throws in color inks it thinks
are needed, just less so.

Ask members of the list using ABW how they feel about it and try it out for
yourself. You have to buy a printer with color inks anyway, why not use them
to see if you can get what you like? If you can achieve the tonality you
want with OEM inks, don't mind reduced longevity compared to carbon inks,
and don't mind paying $5000 per gallon, you're probably best off using them.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

For example, using QTR Rip you are able to isolate the 3 black inks from the
colored inks and as David pointed out, when you print in Advanced B&W mode,
Epson printer drivers also add in some colors to get the tones you want.
Using a RIP, you are able to choose which inks to use, how much of each, and
have the ability to create customized tones.  I am not saying you cant do
this with Epson ABW, I just find it easier to create a customized curve for
the type of paper & printer.

Sanders,

I don't use this approach so I didn't think to mention it. But using QTR to
apply and control the black inks only in an OEM ink set is also a popular
approach. This would allow you to maintain a color printer if you need it,
but have a short grayscale ink set at your disposal too. It essentially
would amount to a better ABW than ABW.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

Thanks David.  Well stated.  

 

I am not completely certain what "ABW" stands for, and hence my subsequent
comments might also reflect your work flow.  Might you provide a link to
"ABW"?

 

Interesting point about using the color inks to influence the black and
white tones.  If one uses Quad Tone Rip one can indeed construct a linear
curve that can influence how the OEM  K3 Epson inks use various color inks
along with the black and white inks so as to achieve a particular "look".  A
friend of mine helped me construct curves so that the tones of the OEM inks
mimic selenium toned prints.  Moreover, his curves can be constructed so as
to allow me to add warm, neutral, or colder tones in the highlights,
shadows, and mid tones.  Such split toning is, to my understanding, not
available when using the Cone inks.

 

I gather that Jon can achieve the same tonal variation by using different
INK SETS with black and white ink components adding different tones.  As you
are no doubt aware, he provides his own ICC profiles for his ink sets and
various papers.

 

We are certainly in agreement: If the OEM inks and one's QTR or ABW curves
(? ) provide results that are as desired then the added expense of such inks
which are already mixed in carts and convenient to use is probably worth the
incremental expense.

 

I am currently using my wife's 2880.  If the entire digital paradigm can
approach the "look" of analog prints made with film then the 3880 is on the
horizon.

 

Elliot

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Kachel
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 3:02 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Returning member needs the straight dope

 

  

 

Consequently, I wonder if you might have a moment to comment on Jon Cone's
inks as used in the Epson printers.  Do you feel that the tonal range and
print quality exceeds the results that one can achieve with careful work (
editing to the tonal values one wants, etc. ) using the K3 Epson inks?
Indeed, in the set up that you provided for one of your printers, are the 6
black and white inks from Jon's atelier?

 

Elliot,

 

I have never used Cone's inks. I found the pricing and the customer service
at inksupply.com much more appealing.

I did initially buy a set of refillable cartridges from Cone. I had to buy a
replacement set elsewhere.

 

The simple fact that Cone's ink sets are multiple gray inks would logically
make for a better gray scale result than EOM inks that mix in colors with
the grays and therefore are going to look different under different
lighting. So, yes, you will absolutely get better results than OEM with
Cone's B&W inks and also with Inksupply's inks.

 

I don't think "careful work" plays much of a role. The printer will apply
OEM inks as it deems necessary and the only thing you can do to exercise any
control over that is to use ABW, which STILL throws in color inks it thinks
are needed, just less so.

 

Ask members of the list using ABW how they feel about it and try it out for
yourself. You have to buy a printer with color inks anyway, why not use them
to see if you can get what you like? If you can achieve the tonality you
want with OEM inks, don't mind reduced longevity compared to carbon inks,
and don't mind paying $5000 per gallon, you're probably best off using them.

 

David Kachel

 

___________________

 

Artist-Photographer

Fine B&W Photographs

 

www.davidkachel.com

david@...

 

Gallery:

www.reddoorfinephotographs.com

director@...

 

PO Box  1893

Alpine, TX 79831

(432) 386-5787

Many congratulations on winning the contest!

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of grimmieoldfart@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 2:21 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] RE: Returning member needs the straight dope

 

  

Welcome back Sanders,

The printer is the obvious end-point device but you also need to consider the software side of B&W printing as well. Epson OEM drivers are solid but some of us elect to use the QTR rip & Print Tool. This is due to the inflexibility of Adobe Photoshop & the Epson OEM printer driver.  

For example, using QTR Rip you are able to isolate the 3 black inks from the colored inks and as David pointed out, when you print in Advanced B&W mode, Epson printer drivers also add in some colors to get the tones you want.  Using a RIP, you are able to choose which inks to use, how much of each, and have the ability to create customized tones.  I am not saying you cant do this with Epson ABW, I just find it easier to create a customized curve for the type of paper & printer.

I recently entered a B&W in a local art show and received great results - took Gold for best photo.  Most people could not believe that I used an Epson R2400 and the Ultrachrome 3K inkset.  It was because I used a QTR and a customized profile and ONLY the 3 blacks. The inks are fairly neutral but the Epson Exhibition Fiber forced everything to a deep-rich brown.  Easy to print more copies of the same print or different sizes while maintaining consistency and I think that is the key to digital B&W printing.

I am not completely certain what "ABW" stands for, and hence my subsequent
comments might also reflect your work flow.  Might you provide a link to
"ABW"?
ABW = "Advanced Black & White", Epson's built-in system for getting better
B&W images.
 


Such split toning is, to my understanding, not available when using the Cone
inks.

Probably not. As I understand it, Cone has set up his system so that you can
use Epson's driver. QTR is a lot more flexible.
 
I gather that Jon can achieve the same tonal variation by using different
INK SETS with black and white ink components adding different tones.  As you
are no doubt aware, he provides his own ICC profiles for his ink sets and
various papers.

Using a different ink set means flushing your printer. There are variable
tone ink sets that don't require changing inks or flushing. Don't know if
Cone makes one.
 
 
I am currently using my wife's 2880.  If the entire digital paradigm can
approach the "look" of analog prints made with film then the 3880 is on the
horizon.

You have to remember that this is a new and different technology. To expect
the "look" of analog prints is to expect both too much and too little, at
the same time. I can make a far better, more impactful overall print
digitally than I ever could in the darkroom and I was no slouch in the
darkroom. Still, when I look at my inventory of analog prints, there are
some features I miss, though never enough to even consider going back. The
mistake everyone makes when switching from analog to digital is trying to
get things the same as they were. It is a new medium and sees the world
differently. Just get the best out of it you can. You won't be disappointed.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

Jim, it's good to see you still active here. I contributed prints to the exchange ages ago. If I take the plunge and return to this type of printing, I will contribute again. Sanders