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What did I do to my 3800?

What did I do to my 3800?

2014-04-14 by <david@...>

I'm puzzled.
I use MIS B&W pigment inks in my 3800. I also have two slots filled with color toners; yellow and magenta. They are in the Y and M slots, not that I suppose that matters.
I want to change the ink in a slot for another one. I've done this trick before in another printer (1400) with no problems. Rather than run cleanings and use up all the inks, I created a duplicate QTR test page and filled it with the color in question. In this case, Yellow, though which color hardly matters.
I first rinsed out the cartridge thoroughly and filled it with distilled water. The idea was to print that Yellow test page as many times as necessary to get to mostly water on the paper, then clean out the cartridge again, substitute the new ink and repeat the above until I get paper with the ink well represented on it.
I never got to the new ink. Several pages printed out just fine, then the ink suddenly stopped flowing. It was not because I had hit distilled water, because the change was too abrupt and the paper was no longer wet, suggesting a clogged head. (Using ordinary copy paper to minimize waste.)
I tried a deep cleaning, which did wonders for all the inks but the one in question. Not a sign of yellow!
Does distilled water damage print heads? Window cleaner didn't a few years back, so I can't imagine plain water would.
Any ideas? I'm stumped!!

Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?

2014-04-15 by Paul Roark

I don't know if distilled water does not flow properly through a modern inkjet head. However, ink bases have surfactants in them that are very important components. With my syringes, when dealing with inks, I usually pre-lubricate them with some clear base. They can be very stiff with distilled water. The surfactants are de facto lubricants for the system. I, personally, would never run plain distilled water through a printer.

Paul
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On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 3:13 PM, <david@...> wrote:

I'm puzzled.
I use MIS B&W pigment inks in my 3800. I also have two slots filled with color toners; yellow and magenta. They are in the Y and M slots, not that I suppose that matters.
I want to change the ink in a slot for another one. I've done this trick before in another printer (1400) with no problems. Rather than run cleanings and use up all the inks, I created a duplicate QTR test page and filled it with the color in question. In this case, Yellow, though which color hardly matters.
I first rinsed out the cartridge thoroughly and filled it with distilled water. The idea was to print that Yellow test page as many times as necessary to get to mostly water on the paper, then clean out the cartridge again, substitute the new ink and repeat the above until I get paper with the ink well represented on it.
I never got to the new ink. Several pages printed out just fine, then the ink suddenly stopped flowing. It was not because I had hit distilled water, because the change was too abrupt and the paper was no longer wet, suggesting a clogged head. (Using ordinary copy paper to minimize waste.)
I tried a deep cleaning, which did wonders for all the inks but the one in question. Not a sign of yellow!
Does distilled water damage print heads? Window cleaner didn't a few years back, so I can't imagine plain water would.
Any ideas? I'm stumped!!


Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?

2014-04-15 by David Kachel

I don't know if distilled water does not flow properly through a modern inkjet head. However, ink bases have surfactants in them that are very important components. With my syringes, when dealing with inks, I usually pre-lubricate them with some clear base. They can be very stiff with distilled water. The surfactants are de facto lubricants for the system. I, personally, would never run plain distilled water through a printer.

Paul,

It appears you may be right. Not certain. Last night I ran page after page and could not get anything beyond a light yellow. A couple of cleanings did improve things for a while, then the yellow started getting lighter again. I shut it off and left it overnight.
This morning I realized I had seen something like this before with the defective cartridges of a certain ink seller who shall remain nameless\u2026; this time!
So, I filled the cartridge in question to the max and ran another test page or three\u2026 perfect!
Hypothesis: plain (distilled) water changes the ability of the system to maintain pressure in the ink cartridge. The more ink drained from the cartridge, the greater the inability to maintain pressure. I filled the cartridge and the problem disappeared. With any luck, enough distilled water is now gone from the system that this won't recur.

Now on to the Magenta cartridge to see if I can still ruin my printer!!

I think I will clean out the cartridge with distilled water, then fill it with Amber base to flush. Or should I use your C6B? I have both. Remember, it's HP's magenta that is going in there in place of the Epson Magenta. Waddya think?

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?

2014-04-15 by Paul Roark

...

I think I will clean out the cartridge with distilled water,

Yes. I use distilled water first to get most of the ink out of carts. Then I use a clear base for a final rinse.


then fill it with Amber base to flush. Or should I use your C6B?

Use C6B. The MIS amber base has a binder in it. You don't need or want that in a flush fluid.

The C6b is generic very generic, with no binders in it. I've used it successfully for a several years how with HP Z3200 PK. I assume the HP M has a similar chemistry. So, C6b appears to be very compatible with the HP inks.

People have also used the MIS amber base to make make an HP "LK" and "LLK" to reduce the bronzing of the HP pigments. It appears to work well. It does warm the HP PK-based inks a bit, but the bronze becomes silvery. See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1100-HpGO.pdf

With matte paper, I'd use C6b. For glossy paper, since I spray all serious glossy display prints, I'd still use the C6b. If I were displaying a glossy print without a protective Print Shield (or thicker) coating, then I might use the MIS glop to make the light colors. Note that I have not used glop (MIS amber base) with HP inks on an extended bases to see if there are long run issues.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?

2014-04-15 by David Kachel

Use C6B. 

I did. The changeover using C6B was as smooth as the other one was a
nightmare. No problems at all.
Live & Learn!


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?

2014-04-15 by David Kachel

Interesting that HP's magenta has a great deal more blue in it than Epson's.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?

2014-04-15 by Paul Roark


Interesting that HP's magenta has a great deal more blue in it than Epson's.



The problem with using the standard color inks to offset carbon warmth is that the standard sets do not have a blue that is a direct complementary color to the carbon color. So, it's not a straight line pull (so to speak) by a single offsetting pigment. If it were, the fade path would be a much more ideal straight line to carbon warm. I did find a pigment that was the right color -- Danial Smith's Indanthrone blue. I actually did print with it, but I do not have the equipment to properly prepare pigments for inkjet printing. The volume needed for a company to do so was such that Zeiss (the MIS founder) did not think it made economic sense to do it.

Paul


Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?

2014-04-15 by John Labovitz

On 15 Apr 2014, at 7:15 PM, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> I did find a pigment that was the right color -- Danial Smith's Indanthrone blue.  I actually did print with it, but I do not have the equipment to properly prepare pigments for inkjet printing.  The volume needed for a company to do so was such that Zeiss (the MIS founder) did not think it made economic sense to do it.

Oh, Paul… why do you tease us so? ;-)

How *would* you prepare these pigments for inkjet? Is there a way that this could be done on a very small scale?

—John

Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?

2014-04-18 by <donsbryant@...>

Arthur Entlich has a manual for cleaning clogged
printer ink problems. He used to send out a lengthy document by e-mail. His e-mail used to be e-printerhelp(@)mvps(.)org

FWIW, I don't think distilled water is healthy for your print head.

Good luck,

Don Bryant

De-ionized water (was Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?)

2014-04-18 by Dana Myers

On 4/17/2014 6:13 PM, donsbryant@... wrote:
>
> Arthur Entlich has a manual for cleaning clogged
> printer ink problems. He used to send out a lengthy document by e-mail. His e-mail used to be e-printerhelp(@)mvps(.)org
>
>
> FWIW, I don't think distilled water is healthy for your print head.
>

More on this topic: not all "purified" water is created equal. I've seen steam-distilled
water and de-ionized water for sale as "purified" water, as well as purified drinking
water (usually de-ionized, with minerals added for flavor). You have to look on the
label to find out what you're getting.

Be careful with DI water; it is quite corrosive to many metals. Back in my youth,
I spent a summer working at an electronic assembly shop where PCB assemblies
were water-washed after wave-soldering to remove the (water-soluble) flux, and
finished with literally a dip in a DI water bath. One day, 10 or 15 boards were left
soaking in the DI water by accident during lunch; an hour later, the tin-plating
on the copper traces had been substantially removed by the DI water, leaving
most of the copper exposed.

Distilled water may not be healthy for a print head; DI water is certainly harmful.

Cheers,
Dana

Re: De-ionized water (was Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?)

2014-04-18 by Paul Roark

A chemist once recommended we use only "double distilled" water for our ink mixes. I'm not even sure where one buys that -- not at the local supermarket, I'm guessing.

Paul
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Dana Myers <dana.myers@...m> wrote:

On 4/17/2014 6:13 PM, donsbryant@... wrote:

Arthur Entlich has a manual for cleaning clogged
printer ink problems. He used to send out a lengthy document by e-mail. His e-mail used to be e-printerhelp(@)mvps(.)org


FWIW, I don't think distilled water is healthy for your print head.


More on this topic: not all "purified" water is created equal. I've seen steam-distilled
water and de-ionized water for sale as "purified" water, as well as purified drinking
water (usually de-ionized, with minerals added for flavor). You have to look on the
label to find out what you're getting.

Be careful with DI water; it is quite corrosive to many metals. Back in my youth,
I spent a summer working at an electronic assembly shop where PCB assemblies
were water-washed after wave-soldering to remove the (water-soluble) flux, and
finished with literally a dip in a DI water bath. One day, 10 or 15 boards were left
soaking in the DI water by accident during lunch; an hour later, the tin-plating
on the copper traces had been substantially removed by the DI water, leaving
most of the copper exposed.

Distilled water may not be healthy for a print head; DI water is certainly harmful.

Cheers,
Dana




Re: De-ionized water (was Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?)

2014-04-18 by David Kachel

A chemist once recommended we use only "double distilled" water for our ink mixes. I'm not even sure where one buys that -- not at the local supermarket, I'm guessing.

Buy it at the same places. Just buy twice as much and then mix 'em together\u2026 double distilled!!

;-)

Sorry, couldn't resist.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

Re: De-ionized water (was Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?)

2014-04-18 by Dana Myers

On 4/17/2014 7:25 PM, Paul Roark wrote:
> A chemist once recommended we use only "double distilled" water for our ink mixes.  I'm not even sure where one buys that -- not 
> at the local supermarket, I'm guessing.

I'm not a chemist, but I suspect that ink mixes will provide enough ions (some kind
of salts) to negate corrosive behavior of DI water.

Cheers,
Dana

Re: De-ionized water (was Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?)

2014-04-18 by Dana Myers

On 4/17/2014 7:45 PM, David Kachel wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
A chemist once recommended we use only "double distilled" water for our ink mixes. I'm not even sure where one buys that -- not at the local supermarket, I'm guessing.

Buy it at the same places. Just buy twice as much and then mix 'em together\u2026 double distilled!!

;-)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purified_water#Double_distillation

Sounds like the chemist was talking about the good old days. Probably like me
talking and lead-based solder (RoHS be damned! :-))


Dana K6JQ

Re: De-ionized water (was Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?)

2014-04-18 by mrjimbo2

Double distilled water is a deionized water that has been ran thru a closed distilling process twice.. As far as where to get it .. I think a good drug store / pharmacist should be able to get it for you.. No clue the cost or quantity requirement.. 
I would doubt very much that anyone uses it to manufacture inks.. ie Epson etc.. Jon could bring value easily to that part of it I would think. 

Lastly...SG  (Simple Green) makes more products then what we know as Simple Green.. I buy the Simple Green concentrate from Costco by the gallon.. I also have a gallon of Extreme Simple Green Aircraft and precision Cleaner that I got thru Grainger's , Home Depot carries it too I think. I learned about that stuff from a Canon / Epson service tech in Salt Lake.. I have a 7600 I ran dye sub inks in to run images on tile.. I wasn't getting much business in 09 due to the economic slow down.. I figured I'd have to pitch the printer.. That stuff cleaned it out.. Regular simple green leaves sort of a film which is not a big deal as you chase it with something the aircraft version of the stuff doesn't leave a film.. 

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Roark 
  To: DigitalB&WPrint 
  Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 8:25 PM
  Subject: Re: De-ionized water (was Re: [Digital BW] What did I do to my 3800?)


    

  A chemist once recommended we use only "double distilled" water for our ink mixes.  I'm not even sure where one buys that -- not at the local supermarket, I'm guessing.


  Paul
  www.PaulRoark.com 



  On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Dana Myers <dana.myers@...> wrote:

      

    On 4/17/2014 6:13 PM, donsbryant@... wrote:

        
      Arthur Entlich has a manual for cleaning clogged
      printer ink problems. He used to send out a lengthy document by e-mail. His e-mail used to be e-printerhelp(@)mvps(.)org




      FWIW, I don't think distilled water is healthy for your print head.



    More on this topic: not all "purified" water is created equal. I've seen steam-distilled
    water and de-ionized water for sale as "purified" water, as well as purified drinking
    water (usually de-ionized, with minerals added for flavor). You have to look on the
    label to find out what you're getting.

    Be careful with DI water; it is quite corrosive to many metals. Back in my youth,
    I spent a summer working at an electronic assembly shop where PCB assemblies
    were water-washed after wave-soldering to remove the (water-soluble) flux, and
    finished with literally a dip in a DI water bath. One day, 10 or 15 boards were left
    soaking in the DI water by accident during lunch; an hour later, the tin-plating
    on the copper traces had been substantially removed by the DI water, leaving
    most of the copper exposed.

    Distilled water may not be healthy for a print head; DI water is certainly harmful.

    Cheers,
    Dana








  
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