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[OT] 24mm v. 35mm stitched

[OT] 24mm v. 35mm stitched

2014-04-16 by <roark.paul@...>

Ever wonder how an standard 24mm image compares to one that is stitched from several 35mm frames?


This was the Canon 24mm Tilt-Shift, Lii, on a Sony A7r via Metabones compared to the OEM Sony/Zeiss ("Zony") 35mm. Cylindrical stitching was done in PS without first expanding the files (which would have make the stitched image better). The straight 24mm was up-res'd with bicubic to match 35mm stitch pixel density.

(The 24-105 zoom at the edge is not close to as good as the 24 TS.)

This is, in part, where demand for larger prints may be coming from.

FWIW

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] [OT] 24mm v. 35mm stitched

2014-04-16 by -= Chris =-

Hi Paul, 

I'm coming in at the end, did look back several messages.... What is this about... The Zony (Zeiss/Sony) looks great. In a couple of lines how many pictures were stitched? I'm assuming it was an horizontal stitch of 3 frames. 

I did do a 9 stitch (3 top, 3 middle, 3 bottom) hand held of the famous Colorado River horseshoe curve with a 4/3 Olympus, and of course that was better than a single Nikon FX frame... Naturally, if I did the same with the FX, that might be better than a single Hassy frame.... etc. 

-= Chris =- 

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Ever wonder how an standard 24mm image compares to one that is
> stitched from several 35mm frames?

> http://www.paulroark.com/24TS-v-Zony3x35.jpg

> This was the Canon 24mm Tilt-Shift, Lii, on a Sony A7r via Metabones
> compared to the OEM Sony/Zeiss ("Zony") 35mm. Cylindrical stitching
> was done in PS without first expanding the files (which would have
> make the stitched image better). The straight 24mm was up-res'd with
> bicubic to match 35mm stitch pixel density.

> (The 24-105 zoom at the edge is not close to as good as the 24 TS.)

> This is, in part, where demand for larger prints may be coming from.

> FWIW

> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

>

Re: [Digital BW] [OT] 24mm v. 35mm stitched

2014-04-16 by David Emerick

I have been doing this with a Sony a900 and a Minolta prime 35mm, sometimes stitching 12+ images. Have a look...

http://www.davidemerick.com/Beach_Stories.php

Cheers

david emerick  
http://davidemerick.com
http://www.blurb.com/b/4271828-36-missile-silos
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Apr 16, 2014, at 6:35 PM, <roark.paul@...> wrote:
> 
> Ever wonder how an standard 24mm image compares to one that is stitched from several 35mm frames?
> 
> 
> http://www.paulroark.com/24TS-v-Zony3x35.jpg
> 
> This was the Canon 24mm Tilt-Shift, Lii, on a Sony A7r via Metabones compared to the OEM Sony/Zeiss ("Zony") 35mm.  Cylindrical stitching was done in PS without first expanding the files (which would have make the stitched image better).  The straight 24mm was up-res'd with bicubic to match 35mm stitch pixel density.
> 
> (The 24-105 zoom at the edge is not close to as good as the 24 TS.)
> 
> This is, in part, where demand for larger prints may be coming from.
> 
> FWIW
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
>

Re: [Digital BW] [OT] 24mm v. 35mm stitched

2014-04-16 by Paul Roark

= Chris =- <baudec@...> wrote:

...The Zony (Zeiss/Sony) looks great. In a couple of lines how many pictures were stitched?

I stitched 3 vertical shots with the Sony 35mm, usig 1/3 overlap (rule of thirds grid lines help). I used PS CC stitching, with the "cylindrical" option selected. It was a quick test, not as wide as the 24mm (I often use 6 frames for a pan).

I was just curious how the Canon TS would hold up (not well). The 24 TS is going to be used only for a very limited set of shots. (The 24-105 Canon L zoom is way worse at the edge at 24mm and f/5.6.)

Regarding my comment about the sharpness of the stitched approach being able to be increased by first increasing the file size/resolution 200% by one of the smart re-sizing programs (like the "automatic" option of PS CC image size resampling) see http://paulroark.com/Perfect-Resize-comparison.jpg . Any time the geometry of an image is changed we lose some information. Using a good resampling program first limits the effective loss.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] [OT] 24mm v. 35mm stitched

2014-04-17 by -= Chris =-

Great, thank you for the update. Always good information.. 

-= Chris =- 

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> = Chris =- < baudec@... > wrote:

> > ...The Zony (Zeiss/Sony) looks great. In a couple of lines how many
> > pictures were stitched?
> 
> I stitched 3 vertical shots with the Sony 35mm, usig 1/3 overlap
> (rule of thirds grid lines help). I used PS CC stitching, with the
> "cylindrical" option selected. It was a quick test, not as wide as
> the 24mm (I often use 6 frames for a pan).

> I was just curious how the Canon TS would hold up (not well). The 24
> TS is going to be used only for a very limited set of shots. (The
> 24-105 Canon L zoom is way worse at the edge at 24mm and f/5.6.)

> Regarding my comment about the sharpness of the stitched approach
> being able to be increased by first increasing the file
> size/resolution 200% by one of the smart re-sizing programs (like
> the "automatic" option of PS CC image size resampling) see
> http://paulroark.com/Perfect-Resize-comparison.jpg . Any time the
> geometry of an image is changed we lose some information. Using a
> good resampling program first limits the effective loss.

> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

>

Re: [Digital BW] [OT] 24mm v. 35mm stitched

2014-04-17 by Ernst Dinkla

On 17-04-14 01:51, Paul Roark wrote:
> = Chris =- <baudec@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ...The Zony (Zeiss/Sony) looks great.  In a couple of lines how many
>> pictures were stitched?
>>
>
> I stitched 3 vertical shots with the Sony 35mm, usig 1/3 overlap (rule of
> thirds grid lines help).  I used PS CC stitching, with the "cylindrical"
> option selected.  It was a quick test, not as wide as the 24mm (I often use
> 6 frames for a pan).
>
> I was just curious how the Canon TS would hold up (not well).  The 24 TS is
> going to be used only for a very limited set of shots.  (The 24-105 Canon L
> zoom is way worse at the edge at 24mm and f/5.6.)
>
> Regarding my comment about the sharpness of the stitched approach being
> able to be increased by first increasing the file size/resolution 200% by
> one of the smart re-sizing programs (like the "automatic" option of PS CC
> image size resampling) see
> http://paulroark.com/Perfect-Resize-comparison.jpg .  Any time the geometry
> of an image is changed we lose some information.  Using a good resampling
> program first limits the effective loss.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I wonder where in that workflow you could introduce deconvolution 
sharpening for that 24mm. Based on what Bart van der Wolf explained and 
made available:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/fo...?topic=68089.0
http://bvdwolf.home.xs4all.nl/main/f...antedEdge.html

A tool to pinpoint the sharpening and not overdo it.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

Re: [Digital BW] [OT] 24mm v. 35mm stitched

2014-04-17 by Ernst Dinkla

Sorry:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=68089.0

http://bvdwolf.home.xs4all.nl/main/foto/psf/SlantedEdge.html


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

Re: [Digital BW] [OT] 24mm v. 35mm stitched

2014-04-17 by Paul Roark

I work on the "garbage in, garbage out" approach. With all of the digital tools, including the linearization algorithms we love, it's still best to have inputs as good as possible. "Post processing" has it's limits and is a lot more work with bad starting files.

With respect to deconvolution sharpening, I'm not convinced we have enough information about all of the causes of the unsharpness for it to be of much help. There are a multitude of different causes of the image defects, and they are not spread evenly through the image. I suspect a good "profile" for a specific lens-camera combination can help in many cases, particularly where someone is looking for a "one-button" solution for processing lots of images. However, I also suspect that careful work with standard tools can do as good a job. Photoshop's Smart Sharpening is said to be a type of deconvolution sharpening, and so far with PS CC I see more unintended negative side effects than benefits. I don't doubt that better sharpening is possible, but I suspect it takes specific profiles that are not readily available. Perhaps some company will come up with a way for us to make our own specific decomvolution sharpening profiles for the specific lens-camera combinations we use.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] [OT] 24mm v. 35mm stitched

2014-04-18 by <lgrrrb@...>

I agree with you, Paul. Deconvolution works great for well-defined optical systems such as a microscope or telescope where one uses a fixed focal length lens with an extremely shallow depth-of-field and extensive corrections for optical aberrations. Deconvolution has been used for those systems for 25 years that I know and their widespread use probably dates back to the early development of computers when the capability to perform the necessary computations became practical.


With typical cameras that most photographers use, I think it would be difficult to use deconvolution without introducing lots of computational artifacts since the optical system is ill-defined. Think about how drastically the optics change when zoom lenses are used and lens focal length is a huge variable. When we add the variable of focus distance which can vary a lot for the large depth-of-field lenses which we use, we have another ill-defined variable to consider. Finally, our typical camera lenses are poorly corrected compared to microscope and telescope lenses so optical aberrations vary a lot within our image area.


Considering the optical unknowns for our typical photography systems, it may be possible at best to target one or two problems which could be improved by deconvolution but I think a lot of other problems are present which throw a monkey wrench into it. As you said, unintended negative side effects seem likely to appear in the computations. I suspect that deconvolution for typical camera systems that we use are unlikely to be routinely applicable to all images but may be useful in specific instances.

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