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How to get neutral B & W prints

How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by japty4644@...

Hi,


I have a Canon iPF6300 that I have been using for about 18 months. I have not been happy with my B and W prints. They usually contain a cast of some sort. I know this is relatively common, but I would like to know how to print without seeing a cast. I process using PS CC and I use the Canon plug-in to print. I have been doing some reading and it is very daunting, to say the least.


I do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and cause a cast. Is this correct?


Any help to get me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,


Jim

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by Paul Roark

japty4644@... wrote:
I have a Canon iPF6300 ... not been happy with my B and W prints. They usually contain a cast of some sort.

That sounds like bad profiles. In fairness, getting good B&W with printers that are primarily aimed at color prints is difficult and the reason this forum and the dedicated B&W inksets were developed. However, a printer of the price of that Canon really ought to have good profiles.

If it were an Epson I'd say try QTR. With Canon, I'd probably look into Bowhaus. I used their rips initially, but it was much more of a challenge to profile than with QTR, which I now use.

One of many reasons most of us have Epson printers is that they are well supported for B&W by both dedicated B&W inksets and QTR. Many seem happy also with their OEM "Advanced B&W" -- which I'd guess most on this forum do not think is particularly advanced.

So, just based on cost, I'd guess the first effort would be to try and get or make good profiles. If that just is not paying off, it may be time to switch horses. There are very good Epson options (but even there, be sure to get one that is well supported -- which for me means good empty cartridges and QTR).

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by James Petrillo

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your response. I just had ColorHQ redo my profiles and just assumed that they were good. However, I have changed just about everything I have to get better matches, both for color and B and W and I am still not where I need to be. I have a new Eizo that is very well calibrated, I have a new iMac and I have gone from CS6 to PS CC. So, perhaps I need to have the profiles done again.

Jim


On Monday, October 27, 2014 4:22 PM, "Paul Roark roark.paul@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
japty4644@... wrote:

 
> 
 
I have a Canon iPF6300 ... not been happy with my B and W prints. They usually contain a cast of some sort.

That sounds like bad profiles.  In fairness, getting good B&W with printers that are primarily aimed at color prints is difficult and the reason this forum and the dedicated B&W inksets were developed.  However, a printer of the price of that Canon really ought to have good profiles.  

If it were an Epson I'd say try QTR.  With Canon, I'd probably look into Bowhaus.  I used their rips initially, but it was much more of a challenge to profile than with QTR, which I now use.

One of many reasons most of us have Epson printers is that they are well supported for B&W by both dedicated B&W inksets and QTR.  Many seem happy also with their OEM "Advanced B&W" -- which I'd guess most on this forum do not think is particularly advanced.

So, just based on cost, I'd guess the first effort would be to try and get or make good profiles.  If that just is not paying off, it may be time to switch horses.  There are very good Epson options (but even there, be sure to get one that is well supported -- which for me means good empty cartridges and QTR).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by David Whistance

Hi Jim, before you spend lots of money on new profiles give True Black & White a try (http://www.trueblackandwhite.com) - it is a black and white specialist RIP from Bowhaus. As I use Epsons (and therefore use mostly QTR) I haven't used it but did use a previous Bowhaus, Epson based, product a few years ago with good results. I think the present Canon one is an evolution of the earlier product so should give good results. It should also come with lots of profiles for more popular papers so may well pay for itself if you cannot do profiles for yourself. David Whistance

Sent from my iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On 27 Oct 2014, at 20:34, "James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> Thank you for your response. I just had ColorHQ redo my profiles and just assumed that they were good. However, I have changed just about everything I have to get better matches, both for color and B and W and I am still not where I need to be. I have a new Eizo that is very well calibrated, I have a new iMac and I have gone from CS6 to PS CC. So, perhaps I need to have the profiles done again.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> On Monday, October 27, 2014 4:22 PM, "Paul Roark roark.paul@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>  
> japty4644@... wrote:
>  
>  
> I have a Canon iPF6300 ... not been happy with my B and W prints. They usually contain a cast of some sort.
> 
> That sounds like bad profiles.  In fairness, getting good B&W with printers that are primarily aimed at color prints is difficult and the reason this forum and the dedicated B&W inksets were developed.  However, a printer of the price of that Canon really ought to have good profiles.  
> 
> If it were an Epson I'd say try QTR.  With Canon, I'd probably look into Bowhaus.  I used their rips initially, but it was much more of a challenge to profile than with QTR, which I now use.
> 
> One of many reasons most of us have Epson printers is that they are well supported for B&W by both dedicated B&W inksets and QTR.  Many seem happy also with their OEM "Advanced B&W" -- which I'd guess most on this forum do not think is particularly advanced.
> 
> So, just based on cost, I'd guess the first effort would be to try and get or make good profiles.  If that just is not paying off, it may be time to switch horses.  There are very good Epson options (but even there, be sure to get one that is well supported -- which for me means good empty cartridges and QTR).
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by David Kachel

I do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and cause a cast. Is this correct?

Please allow me to attempt to save you some of my past pain!
I never wanted \u201cneutral\u201d B&W prints. \u201cNeutral\u201d became a holy grail only after the rise of digital print making and the funny artifacts that inkjet printers produced on monochrome prints. No one sought neutral prints in the distant past of the analog photograph. No one!
Analog prints were selenium toned (decidedly purple) or rarely, brown/sepia toned. And of course there was always a handful of silly people who thought snow scenes should be blue, forest scenes green, etc., etc. Untoned fine art prints were almost unheard of and untoned prints had a sickly green cast in all cases of ;B&W papers made in the last, well, as far back as could possibly matter.
So, the \u201cneutral\u201d print is very definitely a recent, digital photography affectation. Look at some selenium toned prints alongside so-called \u201cneutral\u201d prints and see if you don\u2019t prefer that subtle but important purple color.

I like brown prints, VERY brown prints. Gave up selenium when I dove off the analog high dive into the digital pool. (No one warned me how deep it would be.)
As it turns out, my problem and your problem are the same problem\u2026 color printers want to make color prints! And the makers of color printers DO NOT want to make B&W prints. Though Epson at least nodded in our direction with ABW.

Epson217;s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it. But they are warmish as pure carbon inks tend to be. So a \u201cneutral\u201d print requires adding some Cyan to cool off the K inks. And voila(!), you have a color print. But it isn\u2019t even that simple, unfortunately.

When you try to make any print with a uniform color, and \u201cneutral\u201d is a color from the perspective of Epson and its software, you run into the problems everyone has seen. But once you realize you are trying to print a color called \u201cneutral\u201d it is a little easier to understand what is going on and perhaps get some control.

For my brown tone prints (using Epson\u2019s inks) I put a Fill Layer at the very top of my Photoshop layer stack, with the Mode set to color. Then I set my brown tone in that layer to H 43, S 100, B 12 or 13 (in a ProPhoto RGB color space). This gives me the brown I am after in my prints. In theory, I should be able to get that brown the same way I am getting it from my other printer where I use five pure carbon inks (MIS\u2019s Ebony) plus one magenta and one yellow. But I can\u2019t, and I don\u2019t. That is because Epson\u2019s software is deciding for me how ALL the inks should be mixed to give me the brown I have set in my fill layer. The other day my printer (the one with OEM inks) failed and stopped using several inks in the middle of making a print, accidentally showing me what was underneath my brown color. Epson’s software, I discovered, was laying down Cyan underneath all the darker tones in my brown prints. A LOT of cyan! I can\u2019t begin to explain why, but there it was! I don\u2019t want any cyan in my prints, but if I wish to keep printing this way, I have to accept it.

Now, you could use ABW to approach a more neutral print, BUT, those K inks of Epson's are not neutral, which means Epson\u2019s software will mix an unknown quantity of other colors to give you what it thinks you want, whether you use ABW or my approach, though I suspect with my approach there would be a lot more color ink laid down. The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral print without hidden color inks is the \u201cwarm tone\u201d setting in ABW, which I understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I would bet money that is not really the case.

So, you can use ABW set to Warm Tone and know you are getting the best that system can offer, or you can try setting it to Neutral and hope you don\u2019t get any of the problems you have already had. Some say those problems were resolved for them by ABW. Because of my need for brown prints, ABW was of no use to me.

Currently the very best solution, likely to eliminate problems under most circumstances, is aftermarket carbon inks (which have the added benefit of saving you a lot of money). MIS\u2019s Ebony would be my recommendation. You prints will range from slightly warm to \u03360;neutral\u201d, depending on what paper you print on. (Paper has a strong effect on final print tone.) Others here who have sought the \u201cneutral\u201d grail can tell you a lot more about what inks and papers will give you the result you desire. BTW, if you print glossy, Ebony is out. It won’t work.

One other possibility would be to use QTR to control Epson\u2019s inks, using only the K inks and maybe a little cyan to cool them off. Some here like myself will tell you three grays are not enough, others seem to be satisfied with that. You\u2019ll have to try it and see for yourself.



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787


Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by James Petrillo

Hi David,

Thank you for your response. I briefly looked at Bowhaus last week. I think they have a 30 day trial period. I am going to contact them to see if they can answer some of my concerns.

Jim


On Monday, October 27, 2014 5:00 PM, "David Whistance david.whistance@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
Hi Jim, before you spend lots of money on new profiles give True Black & White a try (http://www.trueblackandwhite.com) - it is a black and white specialist RIP from Bowhaus. As I use Epsons (and therefore use mostly QTR) I haven't used it but did use a previous Bowhaus, Epson based, product a few years ago with good results. I think the present Canon one is an evolution of the earlier product so should give good results. It should also come with lots of profiles for more popular papers so may well pay for itself if you cannot do profiles for yourself. David Whistance

Sent from my iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 27 Oct 2014, at 20:34, "James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


  
>Hi Paul,
>
>
>Thank you for your response. I just had ColorHQ redo my profiles and just assumed that they were good. However, I have changed just about everything I have to get better matches, both for color and B and W and I am still not where I need to be. I have a new Eizo that is very well calibrated, I have a new iMac and I have gone from CS6 to PS CC. So, perhaps I need to have the profiles done again.
>
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>On Monday, October 27, 2014 4:22 PM, "Paul Roark roark.paul@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>
>
>  
>japty4644@... wrote:
>
> 
>> 
> 
>I have a Canon iPF6300 ... not been happy with my B and W prints. They usually contain a cast of some sort.
>
>
>That sounds like bad profiles.  In fairness, getting good B&W with printers that are primarily aimed at color prints is difficult and the reason this forum and the dedicated B&W inksets were developed.  However, a printer of the price of that Canon really ought to have good profiles.  
>
>
>If it were an Epson I'd say try QTR.  With Canon, I'd probably look into Bowhaus.  I used their rips initially, but it was much more of a challenge to profile than with QTR, which I now use.
>
>
>One of many reasons most of us have Epson printers is that they are well supported for B&W by both dedicated B&W inksets and QTR.  Many seem happy also with their OEM "Advanced B&W" -- which I'd guess most on this forum do not think is particularly advanced.
>
>
>So, just based on cost, I'd guess the first effort would be to try and get or make good profiles.  If that just is not paying off, it may be time to switch horses.  There are very good Epson options (but even there, be sure to get one that is well supported -- which for me means good empty cartridges and QTR).
>
>
>Paul
>www.PaulRoark.com 
>
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by David Whistance

David, forgive me if I misunderstood but I think the OP said he was using a Canon IPF 6300, hence my suggestion of the Bowhaus software as I am not aware of any other B&W solutions, whether inks or software, for that printer. If the new software works like the earlier Epson version it will also allow toning. However from memory I believe that the Canon grey inks are more neutral than the Epson ones so just limiting the use of the colour inks should produce fairly neutral prints. David Whistance

Sent from my iPad
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On 27 Oct 2014, at 22:17, David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and cause a cast. Is this correct?
> 
> Please allow me to attempt to save you some of my past pain!
> I never wanted “neutral” B&W prints. “Neutral” became a holy grail only after the rise of digital print making and the funny artifacts that inkjet printers produced on monochrome prints. No one sought neutral prints in the distant past of the analog photograph. No one!
> Analog prints were selenium toned (decidedly purple) or rarely, brown/sepia toned. And of course there was always a handful of silly people who thought snow scenes should be blue, forest scenes green, etc., etc. Untoned fine art prints were almost unheard of and untoned prints had a sickly green cast in all cases of B&W papers made in the last, well, as far back as could possibly matter.
> So, the “neutral” print is very definitely a recent, digital photography affectation. Look at some selenium toned prints alongside so-called “neutral” prints and see if you don’t prefer that subtle but important purple color.
> 
> I like brown prints, VERY brown prints. Gave up selenium when I dove off the analog high dive into the digital pool. (No one warned me how deep it would be.)
> As it turns out, my problem and your problem are the same problem… color printers want to make color prints! And the makers of color printers DO NOT want to make B&W prints. Though Epson at least nodded in our direction with ABW.
> 
> Epson’s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it. But they are warmish as pure carbon inks tend to be. So a “neutral” print requires adding some Cyan to cool off the K inks. And voila(!), you have a color print. But it isn’t even that simple, unfortunately.
> 
> When you try to make any print with a uniform color, and “neutral” is a color from the perspective of Epson and its software, you run into the problems everyone has seen. But once you realize you are trying to print a color called “neutral” it is a little easier to understand what is going on and perhaps get some control.
> 
> For my brown tone prints (using Epson’s inks) I put a Fill Layer at the very top of my Photoshop layer stack, with the Mode set to color. Then I set my brown tone in that layer to H 43, S 100, B 12 or 13 (in a ProPhoto RGB color space). This gives me the brown I am after in my prints. In theory, I should be able to get that brown the same way I am getting it from my other printer where I use five pure carbon inks (MIS’s Ebony) plus one magenta and one yellow. But I can’t, and I don’t. That is because Epson’s software is deciding for me how ALL the inks should be mixed to give me the brown I have set in my fill layer. The other day my printer (the one with OEM inks) failed and stopped using several inks in the middle of making a print, accidentally showing me what was underneath my brown color. Epson’s software, I discovered, was laying down Cyan underneath all the darker tones in my brown prints. A LOT of cyan! I can’t begin to explain why, but there it was! I don’t want any cyan in my prints, but if I wish to keep printing this way, I have to accept it.
> 
> Now, you could use ABW to approach a more neutral print, BUT, those K inks of Epson's are not neutral, which means Epson’s software will mix an unknown quantity of other colors to give you what it thinks you want, whether you use ABW or my approach, though I suspect with my approach there would be a lot more color ink laid down. The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral print without hidden color inks is the “warm tone” setting in ABW, which I understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I would bet money that is not really the case.
> 
> So, you can use ABW set to Warm Tone and know you are getting the best that system can offer, or you can try setting it to Neutral and hope you don’t get any of the problems you have already had. Some say those problems were resolved for them by ABW. Because of my need for brown prints, ABW was of no use to me.
> 
> Currently the very best solution, likely to eliminate problems under most circumstances, is aftermarket carbon inks (which have the added benefit of saving you a lot of money). MIS’s Ebony would be my recommendation. You prints will range from slightly warm to “neutral”, depending on what paper you print on. (Paper has a strong effect on final print tone.) Others here who have sought the “neutral” grail can tell you a lot more about what inks and papers will give you the result you desire. BTW, if you print glossy, Ebony is out. It won’t work.
> 
> One other possibility would be to use QTR to control Epson’s inks, using only the K inks and maybe a little cyan to cool them off. Some here like myself will tell you three grays are not enough, others seem to be satisfied with that. You’ll have to try it and see for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> ___________________
> 
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
> 
> WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
> BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
> EMAIL: david@...m
> 
> PO Box  93
> Fort Davis, TX 79734
> (432) 386-5787
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by David Whistance

Hi Jim, good luck. I know their website isn't terribly helpful however when I last used Bowhaus products they were very helpful and as I said the software produced good results at a time when that was much more difficult with an Epson than it is today with QTR and a good choice of aftermarket inks. David Whistance

Sent from my iPad
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On 27 Oct 2014, at 22:40, James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> Thank you for your response. I briefly looked at Bowhaus last week. I think they have a 30 day trial period. I am going to contact them to see if they can answer some of my concerns.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> On Monday, October 27, 2014 5:00 PM, "David Whistance david.whistance@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>  
> Hi Jim, before you spend lots of money on new profiles give True Black & White a try (http://www.trueblackandwhite.com) - it is a black and white specialist RIP from Bowhaus. As I use Epsons (and therefore use mostly QTR) I haven't used it but did use a previous Bowhaus, Epson based, product a few years ago with good results. I think the present Canon one is an evolution of the earlier product so should give good results. It should also come with lots of profiles for more popular papers so may well pay for itself if you cannot do profiles for yourself. David Whistance
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 27 Oct 2014, at 20:34, "James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> Hi Paul,
>> 
>> Thank you for your response. I just had ColorHQ redo my profiles and just assumed that they were good. However, I have changed just about everything I have to get better matches, both for color and B and W and I am still not where I need to be. I have a new Eizo that is very well calibrated, I have a new iMac and I have gone from CS6 to PS CC. So, perhaps I need to have the profiles done again.
>> 
>> Jim
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, October 27, 2014 4:22 PM, "Paul Roark roark.paul@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> japty4644@... wrote:
>>  
>>  
>> I have a Canon iPF6300 ... not been happy with my B and W prints. They usually contain a cast of some sort.
>> 
>> That sounds like bad profiles.  In fairness, getting good B&W with printers that are primarily aimed at color prints is difficult and the reason this forum and the dedicated B&W inksets were developed.  However, a printer of the price of that Canon really ought to have good profiles.  
>> 
>> If it were an Epson I'd say try QTR.  With Canon, I'd probably look into Bowhaus.  I used their rips initially, but it was much more of a challenge to profile than with QTR, which I now use.
>> 
>> One of many reasons most of us have Epson printers is that they are well supported for B&W by both dedicated B&W inksets and QTR.  Many seem happy also with their OEM "Advanced B&W" -- which I'd guess most on this forum do not think is particularly advanced.
>> 
>> So, just based on cost, I'd guess the first effort would be to try and get or make good profiles.  If that just is not paying off, it may be time to switch horses.  There are very good Epson options (but even there, be sure to get one that is well supported -- which for me means good empty cartridges and QTR).
>> 
>> Paul
>> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by David Kachel

David, forgive me if I misunderstood but I think the OP said he was using a Canon IPF 6300, hence my suggestion of the Bowhaus software as I am not aware of any other B&W solutions, whether inks or software, for that printer. If the new software works like the earlier Epson version it will also allow toning. However from memory I believe that the Canon grey inks are more neutral than the Epson ones so just limiting the use of the colour inks should produce fairly neutral prints. David Whistance

Point taken. But, considering that the warm tone of carbon inks is a pretty universal problem, wouldn\u2019t it be likely that Canon\u2019s gray inks are more neutral because they are mixing them with cyan?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787


Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by James Petrillo

Hi David,

Thank you for the very well written and thoughtful reply. It sounds like "neutral" is just another color and that Epson's will lay down colors behind the scenes to try and achieve this. I have also read and heard that some individuals are happy with the ABW. Unfortunately, I am using Canon at this time and really do not know if Canon has a suitable equivalent. I have to be honest, I think your fill layer is a possibility but I do not even know what color I would add to get to where I want to go. I guess much experimentation would be in order.

I appreciate your attempt to save me some pain. Believe me, I am literally beside myself trying to figure this out.

Jim  


On Monday, October 27, 2014 6:17 PM, "David Kachel david@davidkachel.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
I do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and cause a cast. Is this correct?

Please allow me to attempt to save you some of my past pain!
I never wanted “neutral” B&W prints. “Neutral” became a holy grail only after the rise of digital print making and the funny artifacts that inkjet printers produced on monochrome prints. No one sought neutral prints in the distant past of the analog photograph. No one!
Analog prints were selenium toned (decidedly purple) or rarely, brown/sepia toned. And of course there was always a handful of silly people who thought snow scenes should be blue, forest scenes green, etc., etc. Untoned fine art prints were almost unheard of and untoned prints had a sickly green cast in all cases of B&W papers made in the last, well, as far back as could possibly matter.
So, the “neutral” print is very definitely a recent, digital photography affectation. Look at some selenium toned prints alongside so-called “neutral” prints and see if you don’t prefer that subtle but important purple color.

I like brown prints, VERY brown prints. Gave up selenium when I dove off the analog high dive into the digital pool. (No one warned me how deep it would be.)
As it turns out, my problem and your problem are the same problem… color printers want to make color prints! And the makers of color printers DO NOT want to make B&W prints. Though Epson at least nodded in our direction with ABW.

Epson’s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it. But they are warmish as pure carbon inks tend to be. So a “neutral” print requires adding some Cyan to cool off the K inks. And voila(!), you have a color print. But it isn’t even that simple, unfortunately.

When you try to make any print with a uniform color, and “neutral” is a color from the perspective of Epson and its software, you run into the problems everyone has seen. But once you realize you are trying to print a color called “neutral” it is a little easier to understand what is going on and perhaps get some control.

For my brown tone prints (using Epson’s inks) I put a Fill Layer at the very top of my Photoshop layer stack, with the Mode set to color. Then I set my brown tone in that layer to H 43, S 100, B 12 or 13 (in a ProPhoto RGB color space). This gives me the brown I am after in my prints. In theory, I should be able to get that brown the same way I am getting it from my other printer where I use five pure carbon inks (MIS’s Ebony) plus one magenta and one yellow. But I can’t, and I don’t. That is because Epson’s software is deciding for me how ALL the inks should be mixed to give me the brown I have set in my fill layer. The other day my printer (the one with OEM inks) failed and stopped using several inks in the middle of making a print, accidentally showing me what was underneath my brown color. Epson’s software, I discovered, was laying down Cyan underneath all the darker tones in my brown prints. A LOT of cyan! I can’t begin to explain why,
 but there it was! I don’t want any cyan in my prints, but if I wish to keep printing this way, I have to accept it.

Now, you could use ABW to approach a more neutral print, BUT, those K inks of Epson's are not neutral, which means Epson’s software will mix an unknown quantity of other colors to give you what it thinks you want, whether you use ABW or my approach, though I suspect with my approach there would be a lot more color ink laid down. The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral print without hidden color inks is the “warm tone” setting in ABW, which I understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I would bet money that is not really the case.

So, you can use ABW set to Warm Tone and know you are getting the best that system can offer, or you can try setting it to Neutral and hope you don’t get any of the problems you have already had. Some say those problems were resolved for them by ABW. Because of my need for brown prints, ABW was of no use to me.

Currently the very best solution, likely to eliminate problems under most circumstances, is aftermarket carbon inks (which have the added benefit of saving you a lot of money). MIS’s Ebony would be my recommendation. You prints will range from slightly warm to “neutral”, depending on what paper you print on. (Paper has a strong effect on final print tone.) Others here who have sought the “neutral” grail can tell you a lot more about what inks and papers will give you the result you desire. BTW, if you print glossy, Ebony is out. It won’t work.

One other possibility would be to use QTR to control Epson’s inks, using only the K inks and maybe a little cyan to cool them off. Some here like myself will tell you three grays are not enough, others seem to be satisfied with that. You’ll have to try it and see for yourself.



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box  93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by David Kachel

I appreciate your attempt to save me some pain. Believe me, I am literally beside myself trying to figure this out.

Well, I wish I could have been more help, but I don\u2019t know anything about Canon printers or their inks. You may also wish to consider whether you might want to solve the problem with a second printer, saving the Canon for color only, assuming you need both color and B&W.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787


Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-27 by Paul Roark

David wrote:
... No one sought neutral prints in the distant past of the analog photograph. ...

Actually, I liked the relatively neutral lightly selenium tones Kodak's fiber based Polymax. My efforts with my early inks was to be able to match them well enough to hang them together in mixed shows. The Lab B (yellow-warm on the plus side, blue-cool on the negative side) stayed at about the paper white, until going negative in the deep shadows. The Lab A (redish-warm [or slight purple or magenta] on the plus side, greenish on the negative side) was raised by the selenium. I think most people like a slightly positive Lab A to get what they'd call neutral. Most of the modern papers have that.

Today's brightest natural inkjet papers are close to the "cool" FB darkroom papers. So, while I no longer feel any need to match those, I like to have a "neutral" looking B&W print on the wall and find that a rise of about 2 Lab B units above the paper white does this. For reference, a one lab unit difference is barely perceptible even in a side by side comparison.



...
Epson’s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it.

I think all the OEM "neutral"/gray inks are all blends of carbon plus color pigments. In my view the Epson LK and LLK have too much cyan in them. I use the HP Z3200 PK diluted inks for "cooling" my warmish (elevated Lab B) carbon inks.

MIS MK ("Eboni"), PK, LK, and LLK are pure carbon.

The OEM MKs may also be pure carbon. They look like it and test as very strong.

> ... The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral print without hidden color inks is the “warm tone” setting in ABW, which I understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I would bet money that is not really the case.

I think only HP goes to total or mostly LK and LLK. The Epson ABW may put in more yellow to get the warmth higher. They want to use the color inks, in part I believe, because they can get a smoother print by using more channels of ink firing. That may be a weakness of the OEM systems when a rip is used to put in the minimum amount of color needed to tone the LK and LLK. With a well running system the 2 grays and one black can look fine, but a less than perfect printer running at less than the top quality setting may run into problems sooner when the color inks are not all firing.

The Eboni carbon that David and I use is for Epson printers only.

I agree with those who recommend the Bowhaus rip for the Canon. That is the route I'd try before trashing the expensive printer, though in the long run if you're really into B&W you may want to make the switch to Epson.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by James Petrillo

David,

I may just get a dedicated printer for B and W. It sounds like an Epson with their ABW and the QTR rip should be a significant improvement. Would there be any advantage to go with Piezographic inks over the Epson OEM inks?

Jim


On Monday, October 27, 2014 7:14 PM, "David Kachel david@davidkachel.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
I appreciate your attempt to save me some pain. Believe me, I am literally beside myself trying to figure this out.

Well, I wish I could have been more help, but I don’t know anything about Canon printers or their inks. You may also wish to consider whether you might want to solve the problem with a second printer, saving the Canon for color only, assuming you need both color and B&W.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box  93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by David Kachel

I may just get a dedicated printer for B and W. It sounds like an Epson with their ABW and the QTR rip should be a significant improvement. Would there be any advantage to go with Piezographic inks over the Epson OEM inks?

With aftermarket B&W inks you get more gray inks and therefore smoother tones. Also, with ABW you are constantly flushing expensive OEM color inks down the drain, as it were, for no reason. As for Piezographic inks, I am the wrong person to ask. I am very biased in that regard and have a definite axe to grind. Ask others about using Cone\u2019s inks. I suggest MIS\u2019s B&W ink sets. They are cheaper and just as good, if not better.

But let me repeat the caution: if you are going to print B&W on glossy paper, it\u2019s a whole different ball game.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787


Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by Terry Ritz

"japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]"  (Jim) wrote:

=====
I have a Canon iPF6300 that I have been using for about 18 months. I have
not been happy with my B and W prints. They usually contain a cast of some
sort. I know this is relatively common, but I would like to know how to
print without seeing a cast. I process using PS CC and I use the Canon
plug-in to print. I have been doing some reading and it is very daunting,
to say the least.
=====

Jim, I have an Epson 3800 running Paul Roark's 5KPlus ink set ("6KPlus"
actually) and a Canon 8300. I have been able to make prints that are
"neutral", for all intents and purpose, on both. Here are my observations
& thoughts. . . . 

- I have printed neutral image files using my 8300 on Breathing Color Lyve
/ Crystalline canvases, on Epson Hot Press Natural and on Canson Rag
Photographique using colour printer profiles. They appear neutral to my
eye and in the case of Hot Press Natural, measurably neutral as well (for
all intents and purposes). I create my own profiles but the Crystalline
prints were done using a Breathing Color provided profile. My Lyve profile
and the BC Crystalline profile produced very similar results, using the
same image. I've had no problems with a colour cast on any of these media.

- Have you run the Colour Calibration process on your 6300 lately? If you
have, then as Paul Roark suggested earlier in the thread, perhaps you have
a bad profile.

- The 8300 has the equivalent of Epson's ABW mode within the Canon
plug-in. That's probably worth experimenting with. However, it will not be
optimized for non-Canon papers so I suggest getting QTR and using the
QTR-Create-ICC utility to ensure you have linear prints.

- I experimented with the BowHaus RIP when I first purchased my Canon
8300. I was unable to properly linearize the test paper, Canson Rag
Photographique, with the demo so I used one of the provided profiles along
with QTR-Create-ICC. The profile used only the Canon black/grey inks. The
result, after using QTR-Create-ICC, was almost perfectly linear and for
all intents and purposes "neutral" as well. Lab *a and *b were below 2
from paper white to 75% black. The largest *b value was 3.1 (slightly
yellow) at 90%. Below are the actual readings, which are pretty good
considering no colour inks were used. . . .

%Black Lab_L Lab_A Lab_B
0	97.914412	0.277402	1.390549
5	94.070512	0.502294	1.444087
10	90.348987	0.48239	1.550018
15	86.091218	0.410229	1.615753
20	81.754699	0.404984	1.394908
25	77.574244	0.349306	1.254556
30	73.61141	0.509453	1.126821
35	69.78632	0.581926	1.169478
40	65.663306	0.548883	1.209908
45	61.65196	0.629594	1.107829
50	57.823704	0.443188	1.26834
55	53.741271	0.349384	1.395841
60	50.05392	0.466648	1.265853
65	45.593471	0.334977	1.415265
70	42.179273	0.312324	1.498431
75	37.451986	0.432116	1.955484
80	32.752244	0.613098	2.474799
85	27.991444	0.921098	2.949864
90	23.387742	1.091347	3.136949
95	18.478925	1.073971	2.410161
100	16.509067	0.870133	1.915554

- The 6KPlus ink set in my 3800 will print on gloss or matte. It uses 6
shades of MIS carbon ink plus light magenta and light cyan for toning. I
created a curve for Epson Hot Press Natural that I consider "neutral". It
starts at paper white with a Lab *b value of 3.5 (slightly warm) and
elegantly ramps down to "neutral", staying under a Lab *b value of 1.35
all the way from 20% black to 100% black. This requires relatively little
LM and LC. Of course I can also dial in some very nice warm tones between
pure carbon and neutral, with 6KPlus. Here is what my neutral curve looks
like. . . . 


%Black Lab_L Lab_A Lab_B

0	97.21902	0.444765	3.416683
5	92.771992	0.413539	3.171586
10	89.079454	0.342034	2.652913
15	84.329699	0.301518	2.264897
20	80.226365	0.459246	1.728524
25	76.459769	0.631755	1.179251
30	72.229625	0.774666	0.773441
35	67.821841	0.983371	0.771919
40	63.940584	1.109585	0.871965
45	60.26883	1.176778	0.951358
50	56.027104	1.129266	1.106286
55	51.40514	0.88	1.097802
60	47.485985	0.827898	1.215913
65	43.696999	0.752749	1.008713
70	39.118623	0.710167	0.6684
75	35.555005	0.708935	0.392494
80	31.253296	0.627695	0.314805
85	26.649924	0.488817	0.246863
90	23.243022	0.446861	0.224412
95	19.048687	0.317759	0.311058
100	14.74267	0.24339	0.338531


Best wishes in your pursuit!!

Terry.

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by James Petrillo

David,

Thank you. Just to be clear, I assume that Epson's Luster is considered a glossy paper as far as you are concerned. Is that true? I have very little experience with printing other papers. Could you suggest some other papers to try with B and W printing?

Jim


On Monday, October 27, 2014 9:25 PM, "David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
I may just get a dedicated printer for B and W. It sounds like an Epson with their ABW and the QTR rip should be a significant improvement. Would there be any advantage to go with Piezographic inks over the Epson OEM inks?

With aftermarket B&W inks you get more gray inks and therefore smoother tones. Also, with ABW you are constantly flushing expensive OEM color inks down the drain, as it were, for no reason. As for Piezographic inks, I am the wrong person to ask. I am very biased in that regard and have a definite axe to grind. Ask others about using Cone’s inks. I suggest MIS’s B&W ink sets. They are cheaper and just as good, if not better.

But let me repeat the caution: if you are going to print B&W on glossy paper, it’s a whole different ball game.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box  93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by Bob Frost

Hi,

I've just sold a used R2400 to a Mac owner, and he can't get B&W  prints 
without a magenta color cast, no matter what profile he uses. No casts with 
my Windows setups and the same paper profiles. Has ColorSync got more 
gremlins in it? But if you are using Photoshop, that should avoid any 
colorsync problems, shouldn't it? Is it a genuine printer profile, or an 
Apple modified one? Just a few thoughts, as we've been scratching our heads 
for two weeks on this problem.

Bob Frost
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]

Thank you for your response. I just had ColorHQ redo my profiles and just 
assumed that they were good. However, I have changed just about everything I 
have to get better matches, both for color and B and W and I am still not 
where I need to be. I have a new Eizo that is very well calibrated, I have a 
new iMac and I have gone from CS6 to PS CC. So, perhaps I need to have the 
profiles done again.

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by James Petrillo

Hi Terry,

Great information. Thank you. I actually did a color calibration of the iPF6300 about two  months ago, so I think I am good there. You say that non Canon papers are not optimized fully in the Canon plug-in for the ABW equivalent, perhaps that is part of my problem here. Maybe the custom profiles made for me on the Epson papers are not going to give me good results across the board. I have not mentioned this, but I am having some trouble matching my color prints also. When soft-proofing I have to make significantly more changes than I think I should to more closely get a match. That being said, I have soft-proofed with the Canon RC photo paper equivalent and do not see any improvement. Can I safely say that because the Canon profile does the same thing that my Epson profile is good?

Lastly, from what I have read, it looks like QTR does not support Canon printers. Am I to assume that the QTR-Create-ICC utility will work with the Canon?

Jim


On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 12:32 AM, "Terry Ritz t.ritz@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
"japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]"  (Jim) wrote:

=====
I have a Canon iPF6300 that I have been using for about 18 months. I have
not been happy with my B and W prints. They usually contain a cast of some
sort. I know this is relatively common, but I would like to know how to
print without seeing a cast. I process using PS CC and I use the Canon
plug-in to print. I have been doing some reading and it is very daunting,
to say the least.
=====

Jim, I have an Epson 3800 running Paul Roark's 5KPlus ink set ("6KPlus"
actually) and a Canon 8300. I have been able to make prints that are
"neutral", for all intents and purpose, on both. Here are my observations
& thoughts. . . . 

- I have printed neutral image files using my 8300 on Breathing Color Lyve
/ Crystalline canvases, on Epson Hot Press Natural and on Canson Rag
Photographique using colour printer profiles. They appear neutral to my
eye and in the case of Hot Press Natural, measurably neutral as well (for
all intents and purposes). I create my own profiles but the Crystalline
prints were done using a Breathing Color provided profile. My Lyve profile
and the BC Crystalline profile produced very similar results, using the
same image. I've had no problems with a colour cast on any of these media.

- Have you run the Colour Calibration process on your 6300 lately? If you
have, then as Paul Roark suggested earlier in the thread, perhaps you have
a bad profile.

- The 8300 has the equivalent of Epson's ABW mode within the Canon
plug-in. That's probably worth experimenting with. However, it will not be
optimized for non-Canon papers so I suggest getting QTR and using the
QTR-Create-ICC utility to ensure you have linear prints.

- I experimented with the BowHaus RIP when I first purchased my Canon
8300. I was unable to properly linearize the test paper, Canson Rag
Photographique, with the demo so I used one of the provided profiles along
with QTR-Create-ICC. The profile used only the Canon black/grey inks. The
result, after using QTR-Create-ICC, was almost perfectly linear and for
all intents and purposes "neutral" as well. Lab *a and *b were below 2
from paper white to 75% black. The largest *b value was 3.1 (slightly
yellow) at 90%. Below are the actual readings, which are pretty good
considering no colour inks were used. . . .

%Black Lab_L Lab_A Lab_B
0	97.914412	0.277402	1.390549
5	94.070512	0.502294	1.444087
10	90.348987	0.48239	1.550018
15	86.091218	0.410229	1.615753
20	81.754699	0.404984	1.394908
25	77.574244	0.349306	1.254556
30	73.61141	0.509453	1.126821
35	69.78632	0.581926	1.169478
40	65.663306	0.548883	1.209908
45	61.65196	0.629594	1.107829
50	57.823704	0.443188	1.26834
55	53.741271	0.349384	1.395841
60	50.05392	0.466648	1.265853
65	45.593471	0.334977	1.415265
70	42.179273	0.312324	1.498431
75	37.451986	0.432116	1.955484
80	32.752244	0.613098	2.474799
85	27.991444	0.921098	2.949864
90	23.387742	1.091347	3.136949
95	18.478925	1.073971	2.410161
100	16.509067	0.870133	1.915554

- The 6KPlus ink set in my 3800 will print on gloss or matte. It uses 6
shades of MIS carbon ink plus light magenta and light cyan for toning. I
created a curve for Epson Hot Press Natural that I consider "neutral". It
starts at paper white with a Lab *b value of 3.5 (slightly warm) and
elegantly ramps down to "neutral", staying under a Lab *b value of 1.35
all the way from 20% black to 100% black. This requires relatively little
LM and LC. Of course I can also dial in some very nice warm tones between
pure carbon and neutral, with 6KPlus. Here is what my neutral curve looks
like. . . . 

%Black Lab_L Lab_A Lab_B

0	97.21902	0.444765	3.416683
5	92.771992	0.413539	3.171586
10	89.079454	0.342034	2.652913
15	84.329699	0.301518	2.264897
20	80.226365	0.459246	1.728524
25	76.459769	0.631755	1.179251
30	72.229625	0.774666	0.773441
35	67.821841	0.983371	0.771919
40	63.940584	1.109585	0.871965
45	60.26883	1.176778	0.951358
50	56.027104	1.129266	1.106286
55	51.40514	0.88	1.097802
60	47.485985	0.827898	1.215913
65	43.696999	0.752749	1.008713
70	39.118623	0.710167	0.6684
75	35.555005	0.708935	0.392494
80	31.253296	0.627695	0.314805
85	26.649924	0.488817	0.246863
90	23.243022	0.446861	0.224412
95	19.048687	0.317759	0.311058
100	14.74267	0.24339	0.338531

Best wishes in your pursuit!!

Terry.

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by James Petrillo

Hi Bob,

I agree that there are some gremlins involved here. I do use PS CC, so hopefully that eliminates that potential issue. However, I did notice last night that when I duplicated an image for soft-proofing it was not an exact match. Probably 95% or better match, but I could tell in certain areas of the image that there was enough of a difference that I could discern it. Trying to get that image to match was very time consuming and practically impossible for me to do. Am I missing something here? When you duplicate something and place it side-by-side, should it not be an exact match?

Jim


On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:56 AM, "'Bob Frost' bobfrost@btopenworld.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
Hi,

I've just sold a used R2400 to a Mac owner, and he can't get B&W  prints 
without a magenta color cast, no matter what profile he uses. No casts with 
my Windows setups and the same paper profiles. Has ColorSync got more 
gremlins in it? But if you are using Photoshop, that should avoid any 
colorsync problems, shouldn't it? Is it a genuine printer profile, or an 
Apple modified one? Just a few thoughts, as we've been scratching our heads 
for two weeks on this problem.

Bob Frost
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]

Thank you for your response. I just had ColorHQ redo my profiles and just 
assumed that they were good. However, I have changed just about everything I 
have to get better matches, both for color and B and W and I am still not 
where I need to be. I have a new Eizo that is very well calibrated, I have a 
new iMac and I have gone from CS6 to PS CC. So, perhaps I need to have the 
profiles done again.

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by David Kachel

Thank you. Just to be clear, I assume that Epson's Luster is considered a glossy paper as far as you are concerned. Is that true? I have very little experience with printing other papers. Could you suggest some other papers to try with B and W printing?

Luster is treated as a glossy paper by Epson and, I assume, Canon. Only matte surface papers will work with aftermarket archival B&W ink sets.
I now use only uncoated watercolor papers for my B&W work. You may not wish to start there. They can be a little difficult to print on.
My experience with coated, matte, all cotton inkjet papers was brief and less than rewarding. But the majority of people use them and like them.
Though I tried just about everything, I eliminated most of them right away because they were coated on only one side, which made running test prints twice as expensive for these already absurdly overpriced papers. Plus, the day ;I lifted the matte on a few-months-old print made on Entrada Bright to discover, in front of a collector, that the edges had badly yellowed, I wrote off coated papers for good. (In theory, Entrada Natural should not yellow, but I\u2019m not interested in finding out. Fool me once\u2026 etc.)
I found Red River\u2019s Aurora Natural to be equivalent or superior to other coated papers and ended up using that exclusively. It doesn’t turn yellow. (Have a few boxes left over if you want a bargain.) It is coated on both sides and is therefore quite economical too, and it is also cheaper than other similar papers. If I were going to start using coated papers again, I would go back to Aurora.

Some things never change. Photographic materials, analog or digital, have always been made for mass consumption and commercial use, not for the artist. This is especially true with B&W inkjet printing. You simply have to find your own best work-around using available tools. Ideally, Epson, HP and Canon would make dedicated B&W printers that used inks designed for the finest papers. But that is not likely to ever happen.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by Ernst Dinkla

Excellent B&W prints can be made with color printers if the drivers aim at using mainly the monochrome ink channels. Preferably 3, 4 or 5 monochrome inks then. Neutral B&W prints are easier to achieve when the monochrome inks are already near neutral so additional color inks to create neutrality are less needed. It improves constancy between print runs too. Paper white selection is as important for neutral prints. Easy printer calibration tools exist. Of the OEM printers the HP Zs score high on most aspects mentioned here. For the other brands third party solutions can do a good job.

Ernst, op de lei getypt.

Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 27 Oct 2014 23:18, "David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and cause a cast. Is this correct?

Please allow me to attempt to save you some of my past pain!
I never wanted “neutral” B&W prints. “Neutral” became a holy grail only after the rise of digital print making and the funny artifacts that inkjet printers produced on monochrome prints. No one sought neutral prints in the distant past of the analog photograph. No one!
Analog prints were selenium toned (decidedly purple) or rarely, brown/sepia toned. And of course there was always a handful of silly people who thought snow scenes should be blue, forest scenes green, etc., etc. Untoned fine art prints were almost unheard of and untoned prints had a sickly green cast in all cases of B&W papers made in the last, well, as far back as could possibly matter.
So, the “neutral” print is very definitely a recent, digital photography affectation. Look at some selenium toned prints alongside so-called “neutral” prints and see if you don’t prefer that subtle but important purple color.

I like brown prints, VERY brown prints. Gave up selenium when I dove off the analog high dive into the digital pool. (No one warned me how deep it would be.)
As it turns out, my problem and your problem are the same problem… color printers want to make color prints! And the makers of color printers DO NOT want to make B&W prints. Though Epson at least nodded in our direction with ABW.

Epson’s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it. But they are warmish as pure carbon inks tend to be. So a “neutral” print requires adding some Cyan to cool off the K inks. And voila(!), you have a color print. But it isn’t even that simple, unfortunately.

When you try to make any print with a uniform color, and “neutral” is a color from the perspective of Epson and its software, you run into the problems everyone has seen. But once you realize you are trying to print a color called “neutral” it is a little easier to understand what is going on and perhaps get some control.

For my brown tone prints (using Epson’s inks) I put a Fill Layer at the very top of my Photoshop layer stack, with the Mode set to color. Then I set my brown tone in that layer to H 43, S 100, B 12 or 13 (in a ProPhoto RGB color space). This gives me the brown I am after in my prints. In theory, I should be able to get that brown the same way I am getting it from my other printer where I use five pure carbon inks (MIS’s Ebony) plus one magenta and one yellow. But I can’t, and I don’t. That is because Epson’s software is deciding for me how ALL the inks should be mixed to give me the brown I have set in my fill layer. The other day my printer (the one with OEM inks) failed and stopped using several inks in the middle of making a print, accidentally showing me what was underneath my brown color. Epson’s software, I discovered, was laying down Cyan underneath all the darker tones in my brown prints. A LOT of cyan! I can’t begin to explain why, but there it was! I don’t want any cyan in my prints, but if I wish to keep printing this way, I have to accept it.

Now, you could use ABW to approach a more neutral print, BUT, those K inks of Epson's are not neutral, which means Epson’s software will mix an unknown quantity of other colors to give you what it thinks you want, whether you use ABW or my approach, though I suspect with my approach there would be a lot more color ink laid down. The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral print without hidden color inks is the “warm tone” setting in ABW, which I understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I would bet money that is not really the case.

So, you can use ABW set to Warm Tone and know you are getting the best that system can offer, or you can try setting it to Neutral and hope you don’t get any of the problems you have already had. Some say those problems were resolved for them by ABW. Because of my need for brown prints, ABW was of no use to me.

Currently the very best solution, likely to eliminate problems under most circumstances, is aftermarket carbon inks (which have the added benefit of saving you a lot of money). MIS’s Ebony would be my recommendation. You prints will range from slightly warm to “neutral”, depending on what paper you print on. (Paper has a strong effect on final print tone.) Others here who have sought the “neutral” grail can tell you a lot more about what inks and papers will give you the result you desire. BTW, if you print glossy, Ebony is out. It won’t work.

One other possibility would be to use QTR to control Epson’s inks, using only the K inks and maybe a little cyan to cool them off. Some here like myself will tell you three grays are not enough, others seem to be satisfied with that. You’ll have to try it and see for yourself.



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs


PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787


Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by John Castronovo

Also, be careful to use a good light source or daylight. Cool white fluorescents will cause the print to appear to change color and grayscale is very critical in this regard. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:07 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints




Excellent B&W prints can be made with color printers if the drivers aim at using mainly the monochrome ink channels. Preferably 3, 4 or 5 monochrome inks then. Neutral B&W prints are easier to achieve when the monochrome inks are already near neutral so additional color inks to create neutrality are less needed. It improves constancy between print runs too. Paper white selection is as important for neutral prints. Easy printer calibration tools exist. Of the OEM printers the HP Zs score high on most aspects mentioned here. For the other brands third party solutions can  do a good job.

Ernst, op de lei getypt.

On 27 Oct 2014 23:18, "David Kachel david@davidkachel.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

    

  I do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and cause a cast. Is this correct?


  Please allow me to attempt to save you some of my past pain!
  I never wanted “neutral” B&W prints. “Neutral” became a holy grail only after the rise of digital print making and the funny artifacts that inkjet printers produced on monochrome prints. No one sought neutral prints in the distant past of the analog photograph. No one!
  Analog prints were selenium toned (decidedly purple) or rarely, brown/sepia toned. And of course there was always a handful of silly people who thought snow scenes should be blue, forest scenes green, etc., etc. Untoned fine art prints were almost unheard of and untoned prints had a sickly green cast in all cases of B&W papers made in the last, well, as far back as could possibly matter.
  So, the “neutral” print is very definitely a recent, digital photography affectation. Look at some selenium toned prints alongside so-called “neutral” prints and see if you don’t prefer that subtle but important purple color.

  I like brown prints, VERY brown prints. Gave up selenium when I dove off the analog high dive into the digital pool. (No one warned me how deep it would be.)
  As it turns out, my problem and your problem are the same problem… color printers want to make color prints! And the makers of color printers DO NOT want to make B&W prints. Though Epson at least nodded in our direction with ABW.

  Epson’s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it. But they are warmish as pure carbon inks tend to be. So a “neutral” print requires adding some Cyan to cool off the K inks. And voila(!), you have a color print. But it isn’t even that simple, unfortunately.

  When you try to make any print with a uniform color, and “neutral” is a color from the perspective of Epson and its software, you run into the problems everyone has seen. But once you realize you are trying to print a color called “neutral” it is a little easier to understand what is going on and perhaps get some control.

  For my brown tone prints (using Epson’s inks) I put a Fill Layer at the very top of my Photoshop layer stack, with the Mode set to color. Then I set my brown tone in that layer to H 43, S 100, B 12 or 13 (in a ProPhoto RGB color space). This gives me the brown I am after in my prints. In theory, I should be able to get that brown the same way I am getting it from my other printer where I use five pure carbon inks (MIS’s Ebony) plus one magenta and one yellow. But I can’t, and I don’t. That is because Epson’s software is deciding for me how ALL the inks should be mixed to give me the brown I have set in my fill layer. The other day my printer (the one with OEM inks) failed and stopped using several inks in the middle of making a print, accidentally showing me what was underneath my brown color. Epson’s software, I discovered, was laying down Cyan underneath all the darker tones in my brown prints. A LOT of cyan! I can’t begin to explain why, but there it was! I don’t want any cyan in my prints, but if I wish to keep printing this way, I have to accept it.

  Now, you could use ABW to approach a more neutral print, BUT, those K inks of Epson's are not neutral, which means Epson’s software will mix an unknown quantity of other colors to give you what it thinks you want, whether you use ABW or my approach, though I suspect with my approach there would be a lot more color ink laid down. The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral print without hidden color inks is the “warm tone” setting in ABW, which I understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I would bet money that is not really the case.

  So, you can use ABW set to Warm Tone and know you are getting the best that system can offer, or you can try setting it to Neutral and hope you don’t get any of the problems you have already had. Some say those problems were resolved for them by ABW. Because of my need for brown prints, ABW was of no use to me.

  Currently the very best solution, likely to eliminate problems under most circumstances, is aftermarket carbon inks (which have the added benefit of saving you a lot of money). MIS’s Ebony would be my recommendation. You prints will range from slightly warm to “neutral”, depending on what paper you print on. (Paper has a strong effect on final print tone.) Others here who have sought the “neutral” grail can tell you a lot more about what inks and papers will give you the result you desire. BTW, if you print glossy, Ebony is out. It won’t work.

  One other possibility would be to use QTR to control Epson’s inks, using only the K inks and maybe a little cyan to cool them off. Some here like myself will tell you three grays are not enough, others seem to be satisfied with that. You’ll have to try it and see for yourself.




  David Kachel

  ___________________

  Artist-Photographer
  Fine B&W Photographs

  WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
  BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
  EMAIL: david@davidkachel.com

  PO Box  93
  Fort Davis, TX 79734
  (432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by James Petrillo

Hi John,

I have 5000K fluorescents in the ceiling, I do not know what the CRI is. But when I want to check prints I take them outside.

Thank you,


Jim


On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:13 PM, "'John Castronovo' jc@technicalphoto.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
Also, be careful to use a good light source or daylight. Cool white 
fluorescents will cause the print to appear to change color and grayscale is 
very critical in this regard. 
 
From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:07 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W 
prints
 



Excellent B&W prints can be made with color printers if the 
drivers aim at using mainly the monochrome ink channels. Preferably 3, 4 or 5 
monochrome inks then. Neutral B&W prints are easier to achieve when the 
monochrome inks are already near neutral so additional color inks to create 
neutrality are less needed. It improves constancy between print runs too. Paper 
white selection is as important for neutral prints. Easy printer calibration 
tools exist. Of the OEM printers the HP Zs score high on most aspects mentioned 
here. For the other brands third party solutions can  do a good job.
Ernst, op de lei getypt.
On 27 Oct 2014 23:18, "David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> 
wrote:

 
>  
>I  do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen  duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for  just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better  results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an  image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and  cause a cast. Is this correct?
>
>
>Please  allow me to attempt to save you some of my past pain!
>I never wanted “neutral” B&W prints. “Neutral” became a holy grail  only after the rise of digital print making and the funny artifacts that  inkjet printers produced on monochrome prints. No one sought neutral prints in  the distant past of the analog photograph. No one!
>Analog prints were selenium toned (decidedly purple) or rarely,  brown/sepia toned. And of course there was always a handful of silly people  who thought snow scenes should be blue, forest scenes green, etc., etc.  Untoned fine art prints were almost unheard of and untoned prints had a sickly  green cast in all cases of B&W papers made in the last, well, as far back  as could possibly matter.
>So, the “neutral” print is very definitely a recent, digital photography  affectation. Look at some selenium toned prints alongside so-called “neutral”  prints and see if you don’t prefer that subtle but important purple  color.
> 
>I like brown prints, VERY brown prints. Gave up selenium when I dove off  the analog high dive into the digital pool. (No one warned me how deep it  would be.)
>As it turns out, my problem and your problem are the same problem… color  printers want to make color prints! And the makers of color printers DO NOT  want to make B&W prints. Though Epson at least nodded in our direction  with ABW.
> 
>Epson’s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it.  But they are warmish as pure carbon inks tend to be. So a “neutral” print  requires adding some Cyan to cool off the K inks. And voila(!), you have a  color print. But it isn’t even that simple, unfortunately.
> 
>When you try to make any print with a uniform color, and “neutral” is a  color from the perspective of Epson and its software, you run into the  problems everyone has seen. But once you realize you are trying to print a  color called “neutral” it is a little easier to understand what is going on  and perhaps get some control.
> 
>For my brown tone prints (using Epson’s inks) I put a Fill Layer at the  very top of my Photoshop layer stack, with the Mode set to color. Then I set  my brown tone in that layer to H 43, S 100, B 12 or 13 (in a ProPhoto RGB  color space). This gives me the brown I am after in my prints. In theory, I  should be able to get that brown the same way I am getting it from my other  printer where I use five pure carbon inks (MIS’s Ebony) plus one magenta and  one yellow. But I can’t, and I don’t. That is because Epson’s software is  deciding for me how ALL the inks should be mixed to give me the brown I have  set in my fill layer. The other day my printer (the one with OEM inks) failed  and stopped using several inks in the middle of making a print, accidentally  showing me what was underneath my brown color. Epson’s software, I discovered,  was laying down Cyan underneath all the darker tones in my brown prints. A LOT  of cyan! I can’t begin to
 explain why, but there it was! I don’t want any cyan  in my prints, but if I wish to keep printing this way, I have to accept  it.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
>Now, you could use ABW to approach a more neutral print, BUT, those K  inks of Epson's are not neutral, which means Epson’s software will mix an  unknown quantity of other colors to give you what it thinks you want, whether  you use ABW or my approach, though I suspect with my approach there would be a  lot more color ink laid down. The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral  print without hidden color inks is the “warm tone” setting in ABW, which I  understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I  would bet money that is not really the case.
> 
>So, you can use ABW set to Warm Tone and know you are getting the best  that system can offer, or you can try setting it to Neutral and hope you don’t  get any of the problems you have already had. Some say those problems were  resolved for them by ABW. Because of my need for brown prints, ABW was of no  use to me.
> 
>Currently the very best solution, likely to eliminate problems under most  circumstances, is aftermarket carbon inks (which have the added benefit of  saving you a lot of money). MIS’s Ebony would be my recommendation. You prints  will range from slightly warm to “neutral”, depending on what paper you print  on. (Paper has a strong effect on final print tone.) Others here who have  sought the “neutral” grail can tell you a lot more about what inks and papers  will give you the result you desire. BTW, if you print glossy, Ebony is out.  It won’t work.
> 
>One other possibility would be to use QTR to control Epson’s inks, using  only the K inks and maybe a little cyan to cool them off. Some here like  myself will tell you three grays are not enough, others seem to be satisfied  with that. You’ll have to try it and see for yourself.
> 
> 
>
>
>David Kachel
> 
>___________________
> 
>Artist-Photographer
>Fine B&W Photographs
> 
>WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
>BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
>EMAIL: david@...
> 
>PO Box  93
>Fort Davis, TX 79734
>(432) 386-5787
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by pdesmidt tds.net

CRI means 'Color Rendering Index'. Sunlight and tungsten light get a '100'. High CRI sources are usually about 90 CRI or higher. CRI doesn't completely capture color quality, but it can be a rough guide. 5000K fluorescents might be high cri, or they could be terrible...

Solux makes some good bulbs for color checking. Here we use the 4700K Solux bulbs for critical color matching.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 2:03 PM, James Petrillo japty4644@yahoo.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi John,

I have 5000K fluorescents in the ceiling, I do not know what the CRI is. But when I want to check prints I take them outside.

Thank you,


Jim


On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:13 PM, "'John Castronovo' jc@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Also, be careful to use a good light source or daylight. Cool white fluorescents will cause the print to appear to change color and grayscale is very critical in this regard.
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints


Excellent B&W prints can be made with color printers if the drivers aim at using mainly the monochrome ink channels. Preferably 3, 4 or 5 monochrome inks then. Neutral B&W prints are easier to achieve when the monochrome inks are already near neutral so additional color inks to create neutrality are less needed. It improves constancy between print runs too. Paper white selection is as important for neutral prints. Easy printer calibration tools exist. Of the OEM printers the HP Zs score high on most aspects mentioned here. For the other brands third party solutions can do a good job.
Ernst, op de lei getypt.
On 27 Oct 2014 23:18, "David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and cause a cast. Is this correct?

Please allow me to attempt to save you some of my past pain!
I never wanted “neutral” B&W prints. “Neutral” became a holy grail only after the rise of digital print making and the funny artifacts that inkjet printers produced on monochrome prints. No one sought neutral prints in the distant past of the analog photograph. No one!
Analog prints were selenium toned (decidedly purple) or rarely, brown/sepia toned. And of course there was always a handful of silly people who thought snow scenes should be blue, forest scenes green, etc., etc. Untoned fine art prints were almost unheard of and untoned prints had a sickly green cast in all cases of B&W papers made in the last, well, as far back as could possibly matter.
So, the “neutral” print is very definitely a recent, digital photography affectation. Look at some selenium toned prints alongside so-called “neutral” prints and see if you don’t prefer that subtle but important purple color.
I like brown prints, VERY brown prints. Gave up selenium when I dove off the analog high dive into the digital pool. (No one warned me how deep it would be.)
As it turns out, my problem and your problem are the same problem… color printers want to make color prints! And the makers of color printers DO NOT want to make B&W prints. Though Epson at least nodded in our direction with ABW.
Epson’s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it. But they are warmish as pure carbon inks tend to be. So a “neutral” print requires adding some Cyan to cool off the K inks. And voila(!), you have a color print. But it isn’t even that simple, unfortunately.
When you try to make any print with a uniform color, and “neutral” is a color from the perspective of Epson and its software, you run into the problems everyone has seen. But once you realize you are trying to print a color called “neutral” it is a little easier to understand what is going on and perhaps get some control.
For my brown tone prints (using Epson’s inks) I put a Fill Layer at the very top of my Photoshop layer stack, with the Mode set to color. Then I set my brown tone in that layer to H 43, S 100, B 12 or 13 (in a ProPhoto RGB color space). This gives me the brown I am after in my prints. In theory, I should be able to get that brown the same way I am getting it from my other printer where I use five pure carbon inks (MIS’s Ebony) plus one magenta and one yellow. But I can’t, and I don’t. That is because Epson’s software is deciding for me how ALL the inks should be mixed to give me the brown I have set in my fill layer. The other day my printer (the one with OEM inks) failed and stopped using several inks in the middle of making a print, accidentally showing me what was underneath my brown color. Epson’s software, I discovered, was laying down Cyan underneath all the darker tones in my brown prints. A LOT of cyan! I can’t begin to explain why, but there it was! I don’t want any cyan in my prints, but if I wish to keep printing this way, I have to accept it.
Now, you could use ABW to approach a more neutral print, BUT, those K inks of Epson's are not neutral, which means Epson’s software will mix an unknown quantity of other colors to give you what it thinks you want, whether you use ABW or my approach, though I suspect with my approach there would be a lot more color ink laid down. The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral print without hidden color inks is the “warm tone” setting in ABW, which I understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I would bet money that is not really the case.
So, you can use ABW set to Warm Tone and know you are getting the best that system can offer, or you can try setting it to Neutral and hope you don’t get any of the problems you have already had. Some say those problems were resolved for them by ABW. Because of my need for brown prints, ABW was of no use to me.
Currently the very best solution, likely to eliminate problems under most circumstances, is aftermarket carbon inks (which have the added benefit of saving you a lot of money). MIS’s Ebony would be my recommendation. You prints will range from slightly warm to “neutral”, depending on what paper you print on. (Paper has a strong effect on final print tone.) Others here who have sought the “neutral” grail can tell you a lot more about what inks and papers will give you the result you desire. BTW, if you print glossy, Ebony is out. It won’t work.
One other possibility would be to use QTR to control Epson’s inks, using only the K inks and maybe a little cyan to cool them off. Some here like myself will tell you three grays are not enough, others seem to be satisfied with that. You’ll have to try it and see for yourself.

David Kachel
___________________
Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs
PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787




Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by David Whistance

Jim,

Just a couple of thoughts:

1 - Roy Harrington, the man who wrote QTR for Epson printers has recently produced some software for Mac's to allow printing with correct use of profiles. From memory this will work with Canon's or indeed any other printer and like QTR I think it is shareware. It would be worth looking this up as I suspect your problem is how Adobe, Apple and the Epson interact and apply profiles. I haven't used it as although I use Mac's for processing images I do all of my printing (and indeed scanning) using PC's as I have found them more reliable for those purposes. 

2 - as Ernst said it is possible to produce neutral B&W with the OEM inksets from any of the big three manufacturers today (it wasn't not that long ago) on either matte or gloss papers. QTR won't work with your Canon but the Bowhaus solution does essentially the same thing. If using this or the OEM B&W solution suits you (and if relevant your clients) then you are done without needing additional printers or inks. There is a lot to be said for this approach as it keeps things simple. 

3 - if you decide to go for a dedicated B&W printer then you have lots of options to consider depending on your choice of printer, ink, papers, etc, and lots of learning ahead of you. Reading Paul Roark's papers is a good start as is reading Jon Cone's Piezography blog/website. David Kachel's suggestion of the Eboni 6 set is a very good recommendation if you can live with just matte papers (or satin if you use Photorag Satin).

If it helps I print for clients in the UK and tend to use Epson inks for glossy B&W prints on the "fibrebased" papers, Epson or MIS Eboni inks for matte coated papers and Eboni for uncoated papers. I also have several shades of Piezography inks in smaller printers that I use for myself when I have the time to print my own work. In all cases I use QTR for profiling and linearising the ink paper combinations as it gives much greater control over ink flow and I have to date been too mean to pay for Studioprint. To date, and I have been doing this since before 2000 with various printer/ink combinations, I haven't suffered from significant colour shifts or fading with my B&W prints but I know I have been lucky in that respect even though I have been careful with materials

David

Sent from my iPad
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On 28 Oct 2014, at 10:50, James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> I agree that there are some gremlins involved here. I do use PS CC, so hopefully that eliminates that potential issue. However, I did notice last night that when I duplicated an image for soft-proofing it was not an exact match. Probably 95% or better match, but I could tell in certain areas of the image that there was enough of a difference that I could discern it. Trying to get that image to match was very time consuming and practically impossible for me to do. Am I missing something here? When you duplicate something and place it side-by-side, should it not be an exact match?
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:56 AM, "'Bob Frost' bobfrost@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>  
> Hi,
> 
> I've just sold a used R2400 to a Mac owner, and he can't get B&W prints 
> without a magenta color cast, no matter what profile he uses. No casts with 
> my Windows setups and the same paper profiles. Has ColorSync got more 
> gremlins in it? But if you are using Photoshop, that should avoid any 
> colorsync problems, shouldn't it? Is it a genuine printer profile, or an 
> Apple modified one? Just a few thoughts, as we've been scratching our heads 
> for two weeks on this problem.
> 
> Bob Frost
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]
> 
> Thank you for your response. I just had ColorHQ redo my profiles and just 
> assumed that they were good. However, I have changed just about everything I 
> have to get better matches, both for color and B and W and I am still not 
> where I need to be. I have a new Eizo that is very well calibrated, I have a 
> new iMac and I have gone from CS6 to PS CC. So, perhaps I need to have the 
> profiles done again.
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by David Kachel

Also, be careful to use a good light source or daylight. Cool white
fluorescents will cause the print to appear to change color and grayscale is
very critical in this regard.

Better yet, look at your prints under as wide a variety of light sources as
possible. Everything is a compromise. Look for the ink setup that looks its
best under the widest variety of light.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box  93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by James Petrillo

Hi Ernst,

I keep hearing good things about HP Z3100 and 3200 for B and W printing. I also now know that the paper types are important. However, I do not know which papers to purchase at this point. I have primarily been using Epson Premium Luster and get the impression that I should be using something else. I do not know what the Epson Luster's paper white is. Perhaps you can give me a suggestion for a whiter paper, I assume I need a whiter paper. Is that correct?

Thanks,

Jim


On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:07 PM, "Ernst Dinkla ernst.dinkla@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
Excellent B&W prints can be made with color printers if the drivers aim at using mainly the monochrome ink channels. Preferably 3, 4 or 5 monochrome inks then. Neutral B&W prints are easier to achieve when the monochrome inks are already near neutral so additional color inks to create neutrality are less needed. It improves constancy between print runs too. Paper white selection is as important for neutral prints. Easy printer calibration tools exist. Of the OEM printers the HP Zs score high on most aspects mentioned here. For the other brands third party solutions can  do a good job.
Ernst, op de lei getypt.
On 27 Oct 2014 23:18, "David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
>  
>I do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and cause a cast. Is this correct?
>
>
>Please allow me to attempt to save you some of my past pain!
>I never wanted “neutral” B&W prints. “Neutral” became a holy grail only after the rise of digital print making and the funny artifacts that inkjet printers produced on monochrome prints. No one sought neutral prints in the distant past of the analog photograph. No one!
>Analog prints were selenium toned (decidedly purple) or rarely, brown/sepia toned. And of course there was always a handful of silly people who thought snow scenes should be blue, forest scenes green, etc., etc. Untoned fine art prints were almost unheard of and untoned prints had a sickly green cast in all cases of B&W papers made in the last, well, as far back as could possibly matter.
>So, the “neutral” print is very definitely a recent, digital photography affectation. Look at some selenium toned prints alongside so-called “neutral” prints and see if you don’t prefer that subtle but important purple color.
>
>
>I like brown prints, VERY brown prints. Gave up selenium when I dove off the analog high dive into the digital pool. (No one warned me how deep it would be.)
>As it turns out, my problem and your problem are the same problem… color printers want to make color prints! And the makers of color printers DO NOT want to make B&W prints. Though Epson at least nodded in our direction with ABW.
>
>
>Epson’s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it. But they are warmish as pure carbon inks tend to be. So a “neutral” print requires adding some Cyan to cool off the K inks. And voila(!), you have a color print. But it isn’t even that simple, unfortunately.
>
>
>When you try to make any print with a uniform color, and “neutral” is a color from the perspective of Epson and its software, you run into the problems everyone has seen. But once you realize you are trying to print a color called “neutral” it is a little easier to understand what is going on and perhaps get some control.
>
>
>For my brown tone prints (using Epson’s inks) I put a Fill Layer at the very top of my Photoshop layer stack, with the Mode set to color. Then I set my brown tone in that layer to H 43, S 100, B 12 or 13 (in a ProPhoto RGB color space). This gives me the brown I am after in my prints. In theory, I should be able to get that brown the same way I am getting it from my other printer where I use five pure carbon inks (MIS’s Ebony) plus one magenta and one yellow. But I can’t, and I don’t. That is because Epson’s software is deciding for me how ALL the inks should be mixed to give me the brown I have set in my fill layer. The other day my printer (the one with OEM inks) failed and stopped using several inks in the middle of making a print, accidentally showing me what was underneath my brown color. Epson’s software, I discovered, was laying down Cyan underneath all the darker tones in my brown prints. A LOT of cyan! I can’t begin to explain
 why, but there it was! I don’t want any cyan in my prints, but if I wish to keep printing this way, I have to accept it.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>Now, you could use ABW to approach a more neutral print, BUT, those K inks of Epson's are not neutral, which means Epson’s software will mix an unknown quantity of other colors to give you what it thinks you want, whether you use ABW or my approach, though I suspect with my approach there would be a lot more color ink laid down. The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral print without hidden color inks is the “warm tone” setting in ABW, which I understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I would bet money that is not really the case.
>
>
>So, you can use ABW set to Warm Tone and know you are getting the best that system can offer, or you can try setting it to Neutral and hope you don’t get any of the problems you have already had. Some say those problems were resolved for them by ABW. Because of my need for brown prints, ABW was of no use to me.
>
>
>Currently the very best solution, likely to eliminate problems under most circumstances, is aftermarket carbon inks (which have the added benefit of saving you a lot of money). MIS’s Ebony would be my recommendation. You prints will range from slightly warm to “neutral”, depending on what paper you print on. (Paper has a strong effect on final print tone.) Others here who have sought the “neutral” grail can tell you a lot more about what inks and papers will give you the result you desire. BTW, if you print glossy, Ebony is out. It won’t work.
>
>
>One other possibility would be to use QTR to control Epson’s inks, using only the K inks and maybe a little cyan to cool them off. Some here like myself will tell you three grays are not enough, others seem to be satisfied with that. You’ll have to try it and see for yourself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>David Kachel
>
>
>___________________
>
>
>Artist-Photographer
>Fine B&W Photographs
>
>
>WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
>BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
>EMAIL: david@...
>
>
>PO Box  93
>Fort Davis, TX 79734
>(432) 386-5787
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by James Petrillo

David,

Thank you. I will look into Roy's software. I am also waiting on Bowhaus to answer my email questions. I think you are correct in that this issue is a result of how Apple, Adobe and Canon work together. I know that I had no issues to speak of when I was running Abobe CS5 at 32-bit and was able to use Adobe CMM in the Canon plug-in. Since CS6 and PS CC runs only in 64-bit, I no longer have the Adobe CMM option in the Canon plug-in.

Jim 


On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:35 PM, "David Whistance david.whistance@btopenworld.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
Jim,

Just a couple of thoughts:

1 - Roy Harrington, the man who wrote QTR for Epson printers has recently produced some software for Mac's to allow printing with correct use of profiles. From memory this will work with Canon's or indeed any other printer and like QTR I think it is shareware. It would be worth looking this up as I suspect your problem is how Adobe, Apple and the Epson interact and apply profiles. I haven't used it as although I use Mac's for processing images I do all of my printing (and indeed scanning) using PC's as I have found them more reliable for those purposes. 

2 - as Ernst said it is possible to produce neutral B&W with the OEM inksets from any of the big three manufacturers today (it wasn't not that long ago) on either matte or gloss papers. QTR won't work with your Canon but the Bowhaus solution does essentially the same thing. If using this or the OEM B&W solution suits you (and if relevant your clients) then you are done without needing additional printers or inks. There is a lot to be said for this approach as it keeps things simple. 

3 - if you decide to go for a dedicated B&W printer then you have lots of options to consider depending on your choice of printer, ink, papers, etc, and lots of learning ahead of you. Reading Paul Roark's papers is a good start as is reading Jon Cone's Piezography blog/website. David Kachel's suggestion of the Eboni 6 set is a very good recommendation if you can live with just matte papers (or satin if you use Photorag Satin).

If it helps I print for clients in the UK and tend to use Epson inks for glossy B&W prints on the "fibrebased" papers, Epson or MIS Eboni inks for matte coated papers and Eboni for uncoated papers. I also have several shades of Piezography inks in smaller printers that I use for myself when I have the time to print my own work. In all cases I use QTR for profiling and linearising the ink paper combinations as it gives much greater control over ink flow and I have to date been too mean to pay for Studioprint. To date, and I have been doing this since before 2000 with various printer/ink combinations, I haven't suffered from significant colour shifts or fading with my B&W prints but I know I have been lucky in that respect even though I have been careful with materials

David

Sent from my iPad
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 28 Oct 2014, at 10:50, James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


  
>Hi Bob,
>
>
>I agree that there are some gremlins involved here. I do use PS CC, so hopefully that eliminates that potential issue. However, I did notice last night that when I duplicated an image for soft-proofing it was not an exact match. Probably 95% or better match, but I could tell in certain areas of the image that there was enough of a difference that I could discern it. Trying to get that image to match was very time consuming and practically impossible for me to do. Am I missing something here? When you duplicate something and place it side-by-side, should it not be an exact match?
>
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:56 AM, "'Bob Frost' bobfrost@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>
>
>  
>Hi,
>
>I've just sold a used R2400 to a Mac owner, and he can't get B&W  prints 
>without a magenta color cast, no matter what profile he uses. No casts with 
>my Windows setups and the same paper profiles. Has ColorSync got more 
>gremlins in it? But if you are using Photoshop, that should avoid any 
>colorsync problems, shouldn't it? Is it a genuine printer profile, or an 
>Apple modified one? Just a few thoughts, as we've been scratching our heads 
>for two weeks on this problem.
>
>Bob Frost
>
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]
>
>Thank you for your response. I just had ColorHQ redo my profiles and just 
>assumed that they were good. However, I have changed just about everything I 
>have to get better matches, both for color and B and W and I am still not 
>where I need to be. I have a new Eizo that is very well calibrated, I have a 
>new iMac and I have gone from CS6 to PS CC. So, perhaps I need to have the 
>profiles done again.
>
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by Paul Roark

The problem with some light sources, notably fluorescent lights, is that the distribution of the colors emitted is uneven. There are spikes in the curve. Where the real problem lies is when the spikes in the light source interact with color spikes in the printed image. One advantage of a 100% carbon image is that carbon has a very smooth spectral response. As such, it is relatively un-affected by the quality of light. The more color that is added to a B&W image, the more there will be interactions between the light source sikes and color inks in the image.

Paul
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 12:20 PM, 'pdesmidt tds.net' pdesmidt@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

CRI means 'Color Rendering Index'. Sunlight and tungsten light get a '100'. High CRI sources are usually about 90 CRI or higher. CRI doesn't completely capture color quality, but it can be a rough guide. 5000K fluorescents might be high cri, or they could be terrible...

Solux makes some good bulbs for color checking. Here we use the 4700K Solux bulbs for critical color matching.

On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 2:03 PM, James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi John,

I have 5000K fluorescents in the ceiling, I do not know what the CRI is. But when I want to check prints I take them outside.

Thank you,


Jim


On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:13 PM, "'John Castronovo' jc@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Also, be careful to use a good light source or daylight. Cool white fluorescents will cause the print to appear to change color and grayscale is very critical in this regard.
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints


Excellent B&W prints can be made with color printers if the drivers aim at using mainly the monochrome ink channels. Preferably 3, 4 or 5 monochrome inks then. Neutral B&W prints are easier to achieve when the monochrome inks are already near neutral so additional color inks to create neutrality are less needed. It improves constancy between print runs too. Paper white selection is as important for neutral prints. Easy printer calibration tools exist. Of the OEM printers the HP Zs score high on most aspects mentioned here. For the other brands third party solutions can do a good job.
Ernst, op de lei getypt.
On 27 Oct 2014 23:18, "David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and cause a cast. Is this correct?

Please allow me to attempt to save you some of my past pain!
I never wanted “neutral” B&W prints. “Neutral” became a holy grail only after the rise of digital print making and the funny artifacts that inkjet printers produced on monochrome prints. No one sought neutral prints in the distant past of the analog photograph. No one!
Analog prints were selenium toned (decidedly purple) or rarely, brown/sepia toned. And of course there was always a handful of silly people who thought snow scenes should be blue, forest scenes green, etc., etc. Untoned fine art prints were almost unheard of and untoned prints had a sickly green cast in all cases of B&W papers made in the last, well, as far back as could possibly matter.
So, the “neutral” print is very definitely a recent, digital photography affectation. Look at some selenium toned prints alongside so-called “neutral” prints and see if you don’t prefer that subtle but important purple color.
I like brown prints, VERY brown prints. Gave up selenium when I dove off the analog high dive into the digital pool. (No one warned me how deep it would be.)
As it turns out, my problem and your problem are the same problem… color printers want to make color prints! And the makers of color printers DO NOT want to make B&W prints. Though Epson at least nodded in our direction with ABW.
Epson’s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it. But they are warmish as pure carbon inks tend to be. So a “neutral” print requires adding some Cyan to cool off the K inks. And voila(!), you have a color print. But it isn’t even that simple, unfortunately.
When you try to make any print with a uniform color, and “neutral” is a color from the perspective of Epson and its software, you run into the problems everyone has seen. But once you realize you are trying to print a color called “neutral” it is a little easier to understand what is going on and perhaps get some control.
For my brown tone prints (using Epson’s inks) I put a Fill Layer at the very top of my Photoshop layer stack, with the Mode set to color. Then I set my brown tone in that layer to H 43, S 100, B 12 or 13 (in a ProPhoto RGB color space). This gives me the brown I am after in my prints. In theory, I should be able to get that brown the same way I am getting it from my other printer where I use five pure carbon inks (MIS’s Ebony) plus one magenta and one yellow. But I can’t, and I don’t. That is because Epson’s software is deciding for me how ALL the inks should be mixed to give me the brown I have set in my fill layer. The other day my printer (the one with OEM inks) failed and stopped using several inks in the middle of making a print, accidentally showing me what was underneath my brown color. Epson’s software, I discovered, was laying down Cyan underneath all the darker tones in my brown prints. A LOT of cyan! I can’t begin to explain why, but there it was! I don’t want any cyan in my prints, but if I wish to keep printing this way, I have to accept it.
Now, you could use ABW to approach a more neutral print, BUT, those K inks of Epson's are not neutral, which means Epson’s software will mix an unknown quantity of other colors to give you what it thinks you want, whether you use ABW or my approach, though I suspect with my approach there would be a lot more color ink laid down. The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral print without hidden color inks is the “warm tone” setting in ABW, which I understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I would bet money that is not really the case.
So, you can use ABW set to Warm Tone and know you are getting the best that system can offer, or you can try setting it to Neutral and hope you don’t get any of the problems you have already had. Some say those problems were resolved for them by ABW. Because of my need for brown prints, ABW was of no use to me.
Currently the very best solution, likely to eliminate problems under most circumstances, is aftermarket carbon inks (which have the added benefit of saving you a lot of money). MIS’s Ebony would be my recommendation. You prints will range from slightly warm to “neutral”, depending on what paper you print on. (Paper has a strong effect on final print tone.) Others here who have sought the “neutral” grail can tell you a lot more about what inks and papers will give you the result you desire. BTW, if you print glossy, Ebony is out. It won’t work.
One other possibility would be to use QTR to control Epson’s inks, using only the K inks and maybe a little cyan to cool them off. Some here like myself will tell you three grays are not enough, others seem to be satisfied with that. You’ll have to try it and see for yourself.

David Kachel
___________________
Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs
PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734





Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by Ben Schneider

"No casts with my Windows setups and the same paper profiles."

Mac profiles are not the same as PC profiles.  The Epson site has profiles for Macs, and others for PCs.

There must be a difference in the two if Epson offers both!

I sometimes print B&W on my R3000; only when they are not important.  They are not bad for a color printer with OEM inks.  One needs to compare them to a true neutral print to object to their appearance.

For my better quality prints, I use 3K in a R1800 on cotton paper.

Ben

Sent from my iPad

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by Terry Ritz

"James Petrillo wrote:

Great information. Thank you. I actually did a color calibration of the
iPF6300 about two  months ago, so I think I am good there. You say that non
Canon papers are not optimized fully in the Canon plug-in for the ABW
equivalent, perhaps that is part of my problem here. Maybe the custom
profiles made for me on the Epson papers are not going to give me good
results across the board. I have not mentioned this, but I am having some
trouble matching my color prints also. When soft-proofing I have to make
significantly more changes than I think I should to more closely get a
match. That being said, I have soft-proofed with the Canon RC photo paper
equivalent and do not see any improvement. Can I safely say that because the
Canon profile does the same thing that my Epson profile is good?

Lastly, from what I have read, it looks like QTR does not support Canon
printers. Am I to assume that the QTR-Create-ICC utility will work with the
Canon?
===

Jim, I do almost all of my printing through the QTR Print program Roy wrote.
I have not let PS manage the colour conversion since CS3. I use the Canon
print plug-in occasionally, but I do the colour conversion manually and set
the plug in to "No Color Correction" (Output Profile). The custom profiles
for your Epson papers should be fine, assuming they were made correctly.
Perhaps you are running into colour management issues.

Try this. . . .  Use Edit/Convert To Profile in Photoshop to apply the
profile for your printer to your image. Use the Adobe engine, Black Point
Compensation and the rendering intent you prefer (Perceptual or Relative
Colormetric normally) during the conversion. Then, take the image into the
Canon print plug-in, set the Output Profile to "No Color Correction", and
print as normal. Let us know how that turns out.

When I suggested you use QTR I was referring only to the profile creation
component. The main body of QTR (the "RIP") will not work with anything but
an Epson printer. The QTR-Create-ICC will work with anything. You print a 21
step wedge (included) using the Canon ABW equivalent. You measure that wedge
with your spectro and feed the values into QTR-Create-ICC. The profile it
creates will attempt to make your output linear, and If you were in the
ballpark to start with it should nail it. You then apply this profile to
each image as I've outlined above, just before you go into the Canon print
plug-in to do your ABW-style printing.

Best,

Terry.

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by James Petrillo

Hi Terry,

After a couple of months, I did figure out the convert to profile method you mention and have been using that, exactly as you described. Unfortunately, my results are still lacking. Is there a way to diagnose a bad ICC profile? When soft-proofing, I preview back and forth between relative and perceptual, without simulate paper checked and the match is almost imperceptible. When I check the simulate paper box it becomes significantly worse. I know that this is supposed to happen, I am just wondering to what degree. To bring the original up to the soft-proof copy takes a lot more processing, at least for me. I have a very good eye and am somewhat of a stickler. I wish it was just a matter of increasing exposure, contrast and vibrance. But I also generally have to adjust some colors in the image.

I appreciate your effort in trying to help.

Jim


On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 6:53 PM, "Terry Ritz t.ritz@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  


"James Petrillo wrote:


Great information. Thank you. I actually did a color calibration of the iPF6300 about two  months ago, so I think I am good there. You say that non Canon papers are not optimized fully in the Canon plug-in for the ABW equivalent, perhaps that is part of my problem here. Maybe the custom profiles made for me on the Epson papers are not going to give me good results across the board. I have not mentioned this, but I am having some trouble matching my color prints also. When soft-proofing I have to make significantly more changes than I think I should to more closely get a match. That being said, I have soft-proofed with the Canon RC photo paper equivalent and do not see any improvement. Can I safely say that because the Canon profile does the same thing that my Epson profile is good?


Lastly, from what I have read, it looks like QTR does not support Canon printers. Am I to assume that the QTR-Create-ICC utility will work with the Canon?
===

Jim, I do almost all of my printing through the QTR Print program Roy wrote. I have not let PS manage the colour conversion since CS3. I use the Canon print plug-in occasionally, but I do the colour conversion manually and set the plug in to "No Color Correction" (Output Profile). The custom profiles for your Epson papers should be fine, assuming they were made correctly. Perhaps you are running into colour management issues. 

Try this. . . .  Use Edit/Convert To Profile in Photoshop to apply the profile for your printer to your image. Use the Adobe engine, Black Point Compensation and the rendering intent you prefer (Perceptual or Relative Colormetric normally) during the conversion. Then, take the image into the Canon print plug-in, set the Output Profile to "No Color Correction", and print as normal. Let us know how that turns out.

When I suggested you use QTR I was referring only to the profile creation component. The main body of QTR (the "RIP") will not work with anything but an Epson printer. The QTR-Create-ICC will work with anything. You print a 21 step wedge (included) using the Canon ABW equivalent. You measure that wedge with your spectro and feed the values into QTR-Create-ICC. The profile it creates will attempt to make your output linear, and If you were in the ballpark to start with it should nail it. You then apply this profile to each image as I've outlined above, just before you go into the Canon print plug-in to do your ABW-style printing.

Best,

Terry.

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-28 by Terry Ritz

Jim, I'm not aware of a way to diagnose a bad profile. I assume that you are
using the same driver settings as you did when you printed the profile
targets (e.g. paper type, etc.)?

A way to check the system would be to use a Canon paper and a Canon provided
profile, or a third party paper with a manufacturer provided profile that
you feel confident is good. The colour calibration routine essentially takes
machine to machine variances out of the equation.

I suggest you check the "simulate paper" box when you soft proof. Jeff
Schewe calls this the "suck button", because it makes things look pretty
bad, especially with matte papers. It's trying to simulate the reduced
contrast, paper base tone, etc. of the printed output. I generally add a bit
of saturation and a curve which brightens the output a bit when I soft proof
colour images. With b/w output it's just the brightening curve. Printed
output will always be somewhat different than what you see on the screen.
Beaming electrons vs. reflected light. The quality of your monitor profile,
room lighting, etc. all come into play.

Wish I could offer more help.

Terry.

Hi Terry,

After a couple of months, I did figure out the convert to profile method you
mention and have been using that, exactly as you described. Unfortunately,
my results are still lacking. Is there a way to diagnose a bad ICC profile?
When soft-proofing, I preview back and forth between relative and
perceptual, without simulate paper checked and the match is almost
imperceptible. When I check the simulate paper box it becomes significantly
worse. I know that this is supposed to happen, I am just wondering to what
degree. To bring the original up to the soft-proof copy takes a lot more
processing, at least for me. I have a very good eye and am somewhat of a
stickler. I wish it was just a matter of increasing exposure, contrast and
vibrance. But I also generally have to adjust some colors in the image.

I appreciate your effort in trying to help.

Jim

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-29 by James Petrillo

Terry,

I am pretty sure the targets were made using the proper settings. The only thing I could think of that could have possibly changed is 8-bit to 16-bit, and I do not know what that would change , if anything. Although I do not like how the simulate paper looks, I know that you need to take in to account the color of the paper and need to have it checked. Funny thing, before I had all these issues, I rarely soft-proofed. The images just came out fine.

I will have to get some Canon paper and try it with their included profiles. Again, I have tried just switching the profiles to a Canon equivalent in soft-proofing and did not see any difference between them and the Epson profile. I am not sure if that tells me anything or not.

Thanks,

Jim


On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 7:55 PM, "Terry Ritz t.ritz@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
Jim, I'm not aware of a way to diagnose a bad profile. I assume that you are using the same driver settings as you did when you printed the profile targets (e.g. paper type, etc.)? 

A way to check the system would be to use a Canon paper and a Canon provided profile, or a third party paper with a manufacturer provided profile that you feel confident is good. The colour calibration routine essentially takes machine to machine variances out of the equation.

I suggest you check the "simulate paper" box when you soft proof. Jeff Schewe calls this the "suck button", because it makes things look pretty bad, especially with matte papers. It's trying to simulate the reduced contrast, paper base tone, etc. of the printed output. I generally add a bit of saturation and a curve which brightens the output a bit when I soft proof colour images. With b/w output it's just the brightening curve. Printed output will always be somewhat different than what you see on the screen. Beaming electrons vs. reflected light. The quality of your monitor profile, room lighting, etc. all come into play.

Wish I could offer more help.

Terry.

Hi Terry,


After a couple of months, I did figure out the convert to profile method you mention and have been using that, exactly as you described. Unfortunately, my results are still lacking. Is there a way to diagnose a bad ICC profile? When soft-proofing, I preview back and forth between relative and perceptual, without simulate paper checked and the match is almost imperceptible. When I check the simulate paper box it becomes significantly worse. I know that this is supposed to happen, I am just wondering to what degree. To bring the original up to the soft-proof copy takes a lot more processing, at least for me. I have a very good eye and am somewhat of a stickler. I wish it was just a matter of increasing exposure, contrast and vibrance. But I also generally have to adjust some colors in the image.

I appreciate your effort in trying to help.

Jim

Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-29 by Michael-K

Regarding what sort of lighting to use when evaluating a print, it may be most desirable to make a print for the lighting that will exist at the print's final display location (as well as can be determined). If the print will be in a gallery using 3,200*K halogen lamps, with xx foot candles falling on the print, use similar lamps and brightness for your testing location. If the print will be hung in a home with low level, 2,700*K lighting, use that for the test. If the print will be hung outdoors...well, you get the idea.

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-29 by Richard Smallfield

Hi Jim,
I've read a lot of the replies to your questkon, but not seen one that mentioned DataColor's Spyder Print colourimeter which makes 'Extended Grays' profiles as an option, using a colour workflow for BW. These profiles allow adjustment of the hue within the profile.

Using the colour driver for my Epson 3800 and 'Extended Grays' profiles, I have been able to achieve truly neutral prints with greater ease than with ABW or QTR. Because the hue is controlled by an ICC profile, neutrality is achieved throughout the tonal range. I've not managed quite as neutral a hue with ABW or QTR. (With more work, I probably could achieve perfect neutrality with QTR if I wanted to, but the 'Extended Grays' profile does it simply.)

If I want true neutrality (which I usually don't quite want), or if I don't want to use the slightly more long winded QTR workflow, I use the colour workflow with an 'Extended Grays' icc profile.

That is what I would do if I had your problem with a non-Epson printer.

For my exhibiiton prints, however, I have returned to QTR for now, because I use an Epson and: (1) QTR uses the least colour ink of any of the BW workflows using colour ink sets, so should be less prone to colour shifting over the years. (2) It allows split toning; and (3) It is easy to profile, using my Spyder Print Colourimeter and QTR Create-ICC, to achieve greyscale linearity - only 21 grescale patches to measure.

The fact is that I've achieved good results with all three workflows, though ABW's lack of split toning has been a drawback on some papers.

Good luck,
Richard


--
richardsmallfield.com

Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-29 by ro@...

Yes, I get the idea, but this doesn't work when producing prints for retail sale, eh?


I only use ImagePrint to print on my 7900 (and 7600 and 7800 before this), and what it defines as "neutral B&W" is what I go with, and I am happy with the results, as are my dealers and customers. So far. Would I prefer a crisp silver gelatin B&W? For sure, but my wet darkroom days are long gone and evidently inkjet printing ain't there yet.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-29 by David Kachel

Regarding what sort of lighting to use when evaluating a print, it may be
most desirable to make a print for the lighting that will exist at the
print's final display location (as well as can be determined). If the print
will be in a gallery using 3,200*K halogen lamps, with xx foot candles
falling on the print, use similar lamps and brightness for your testing
location. If the print will be hung in a home with low level, 2,700*K
lighting, use that for the test. If the print will be hung outdoors...well,
you get the idea.

That old saw has been floating around for decades. It is wrong. I have found
that when your print looks good everywhere, you have it right. If it looks
good in artificial light but not in daylight, etc., you have more work to
do.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...

PO Box  93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-29 by mrjimbo2

That is the optimal situation but in truth quite tuff to fulfill if your dealing with several different light sources frequently. I have helped set up viewing areas or lighting for years and the stuff I've seen is generally pretty scary.. Ironically most that talk about requiring a specific K value don't even own K meters.. We have two here. All lights change their K value over time and they change sooner then most might think..
Most galleries don't change their bulbs until they burn out. Halogens that start out at 3200 or 3400 I've measured at 2400 some lower and their still using them.. What I'm trying to say is even with the best of intentions you can still blow it.. I have a totally great Gretag Macbeth viewing station mounted in the ceiling that can also be tipped to light a wall. It has 3 different sets of lights in it for viewing options.. If I don't change all the lights every 9 to 12 months it's useless for what it's purpose is.
I like to master a print to 5000k that gets saved.. If I then need to adjust that up or down I do it.. Technically speaking we should be able to build an action that will take it there but different substrates that reflect differently screw that logic up..
jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:03 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

Regarding what sort of lighting to use when evaluating a print, it may be most desirable to make a print for the lighting that will exist at the print's final display location (as well as can be determined). If the print will be in a gallery using 3,200*K halogen lamps, with xx foot candles falling on the print, use similar lamps and brightness for your testing location. If the print will be hung in a home with low level, 2,700*K lighting, use that for the test. If the print will be hung outdoors...well, you get the idea.

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5557 / Virus Database: 4189/8475 - Release Date: 10/29/14

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-29 by James Petrillo

Hi Richard,

You are correct that no one has mentioned the Datacolor Spyder Print Colorimeter as a possible remedy. I do not know much about it, but will take a look at it when I get a chance. I just printed two B and W images today that were pretty neutral in PS CC. When printed, they were a little warm, somewhat yellowish. Not really what I wanted so I do need a solution here. I prefer to forgo the second printer, but if I have to, I will go with an Epson again. I switch to Canon because my 3800 clogged up and could not be saved. Canon supposedly does better in that regard. At any rate, worse-case-scenario I need to figure out the best way to correct these casts. I have tried the color sliders in the Canon plug-in for correcting color images and was very disappointed. I assume the results would be similar for B and W.

Thank you,

Jim



On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 11:24 AM, "Richard Smallfield rwsmallfield@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
Hi Jim,
I've read a lot of the replies to your questkon, but not seen one that mentioned DataColor's Spyder Print colourimeter which makes 'Extended Grays' profiles as an option, using a colour workflow for BW. These profiles allow adjustment of the hue within the profile.

Using the colour driver for my Epson 3800 and 'Extended Grays' profiles, I have been able to achieve truly neutral prints with greater ease than with ABW or QTR. Because the hue is controlled by an ICC profile, neutrality is achieved throughout the tonal range. I've not managed quite as neutral a hue with ABW or QTR. (With more work, I probably could achieve perfect neutrality with QTR if I wanted to, but the 'Extended Grays' profile does it simply.) 

If I want true neutrality (which I usually don't quite want), or if I don't want to use the slightly more long winded QTR workflow, I use the colour workflow with an 'Extended Grays' icc profile.

That is what I would do if I had your problem with a non-Epson printer.

For my exhibiiton prints, however, I have returned to QTR for now, because I use an Epson and: (1) QTR uses the least colour ink of any of the BW workflows using colour ink sets, so should be less prone to colour shifting over the years. (2) It allows split toning; and (3) It is easy to profile, using my Spyder Print Colourimeter and QTR Create-ICC, to achieve greyscale linearity - only 21 grescale patches to measure.

The fact is that I've achieved good results with all three workflows, though ABW's lack of split toning has been a drawback on some papers.

Good luck,
Richard

-- 
richardsmallfield.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-31 by Ernst Dinkla

Graeme Gill recently launched an app for Android that makes your display/profile colori- and spectrometers more mobile. So measuring Kelvin grades and spectral distribution of lamps becomes easier/affordable when a meter like that is already around.



Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, piëzografie, giclée
www.pigment-print.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 4:59 PM, 'mrjimbo2' mrjimbo2@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

That is the optimal situation but in truth quite tuff to fulfill if your dealing with several different light sources frequently. I have helped set up viewing areas or lighting for years and the stuff I've seen is generally pretty scary.. Ironically most that talk about requiring a specific K value don't even own K meters.. We have two here. All lights change their K value over time and they change sooner then most might think..
Most galleries don't change their bulbs until they burn out. Halogens that start out at 3200 or 3400 I've measured at 2400 some lower and their still using them.. What I'm trying to say is even with the best of intentions you can still blow it.. I have a totally great Gretag Macbeth viewing station mounted in the ceiling that can also be tipped to light a wall. It has 3 different sets of lights in it for viewing options.. If I don't change all the lights every 9 to 12 months it's useless for what it's purpose is.
I like to master a print to 5000k that gets saved.. If I then need to adjust that up or down I do it.. Technically speaking we should be able to build an action that will take it there but different substrates that reflect differently screw that logic up..
jimbo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:03 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

Regarding what sort of lighting to use when evaluating a print, it may be most desirable to make a print for the lighting that will exist at the print's final display location (as well as can be determined). If the print will be in a gallery using 3,200*K halogen lamps, with xx foot candles falling on the print, use similar lamps and brightness for your testing location. If the print will be hung in a home with low level, 2,700*K lighting, use that for the test. If the print will be hung outdoors...well, you get the idea.

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5557 / Virus Database: 4189/8475 - Release Date: 10/29/14


Re: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-10-31 by mrjimbo2

WOW... who would have thought.. I will certainly give the demo a try..

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ernst Dinkla ernst.dinkla@gmail.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 2:20 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints


    

  Graeme Gill recently launched an app for Android that makes your display/profile colori- and spectrometers more mobile. So measuring Kelvin grades and spectral distribution of lamps becomes easier/affordable when a meter like that is already around.


  http://www.argyllpro.com.au




  Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst 
   
  Dinkla Grafische Techniek 
  Quad, piëzografie, giclée 
  www.pigment-print.com



  On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 4:59 PM, 'mrjimbo2' mrjimbo2@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      

    That is the optimal situation but in truth quite tuff to fulfill if your dealing with several different light sources frequently. I have helped set up viewing areas or lighting for years and the stuff I've seen is generally pretty scary.. Ironically most that talk about requiring a specific K value don't even own K meters.. We have two here. All lights change their K value over time and they change sooner then most might think.. 
    Most galleries don't change their bulbs until they burn out. Halogens that start out at 3200 or 3400 I've measured at 2400 some lower and their still using them.. What I'm trying to say is even with the best of intentions you can still blow it.. I have a totally great Gretag Macbeth viewing station mounted in the ceiling that can also be tipped to light a wall. It has 3 different sets of lights in it for viewing options.. If I don't change all the lights every 9 to 12 months it's useless for what it's purpose is. 
    I like to master a print to 5000k that gets saved.. If I then need to adjust that up or down I do it.. Technically speaking we should be able to build an action that will take it there but different substrates that reflect differently screw that logic up..  

    jimbo



      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Michael-K michael3442@...m [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] 
      To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
      Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:03 AM
      Subject: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints


        

      Regarding what sort of lighting to use when evaluating a print, it may be most desirable to make a print for the lighting that will exist at the print's final display location (as well as can be determined). If the print will be in a gallery using 3,200*K halogen lamps, with xx foot candles falling on the print, use similar lamps and brightness for your testing location. If the print will be hung in a home with low level, 2,700*K lighting, use that for the test. If the print will be hung outdoors...well, you get the idea.



      No virus found in this message.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 2015.0.5557 / Virus Database: 4189/8475 - Release Date: 10/29/14






  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2015.0.5557 / Virus Database: 4189/8484 - Release Date: 10/31/14

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-01 by Ernst Dinkla

Hello Jim,

The Epson Premium Luster has as moderate amount of OBAs and there are only a few RC papers without or with less OBA content. It is a paper very similar to the HP Premium Instant Dry range. You can check that in my SpectrumViz application. There are more things to consider in media choices; gloss difference and bronzing, texture, weight. If that paper works for you then test the alternatives well before you switch.

There is an interesting paradox; the more neutral and more white (higher reflectance) a paper white is, the more the display lighting needs to be consistent to the original viewing light one uses for examining the proofs/prints. With a high white reflection of the paper the ink's color filtering is optimal and you will see the effect of inconstancy of different lamps more, color and light level. The more in B&W prints where any color bias over the tone range is referenced to the color of the total range from paper white to black. I see that with papers that have no OBA content and a high white reflection. Papers with OBA content suffer of the different UV content in light anyway but B&W prints on OBA free papers can have a similar effect. The Innova IFA 24 in particular, which is an inexpensive alpha cellulose matte paper, expensive Canson matte papers show it too. I have an IFA 24 B&W print here with a split tone that changes much during the day due to changing light conditions, not just light color but also the amount, nice effect BTW. Papers with a high reflection, quite neutral, almost straight spectral distribution of the reflection, non OBA. I guess if the spectral distribution is irregular the paper white color dampens that effect and one will notice that paper white bias more than the display light change.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, piëzografie, giclée
www.pigment-print.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 9:09 PM, James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Ernst,

I keep hearing good things about HP Z3100 and 3200 for B and W printing. I also now know that the paper types are important. However, I do not know which papers to purchase at this point. I have primarily been using Epson Premium Luster and get the impression that I should be using something else. I do not know what the Epson Luster's paper white is. Perhaps you can give me a suggestion for a whiter paper, I assume I need a whiter paper. Is that correct?

Thanks,

Jim


On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:07 PM, "Ernst Dinkla ernst.dinkla@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Excellent B&W prints can be made with color printers if the drivers aim at using mainly the monochrome ink channels. Preferably 3, 4 or 5 monochrome inks then. Neutral B&W prints are easier to achieve when the monochrome inks are already near neutral so additional color inks to create neutrality are less needed. It improves constancy between print runs too. Paper white selection is as important for neutral prints. Easy printer calibration tools exist. Of the OEM printers the HP Zs score high on most aspects mentioned here. For the other brands third party solutions can do a good job.
Ernst, op de lei getypt.
On 27 Oct 2014 23:18, "David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and cause a cast. Is this correct?

Please allow me to attempt to save you some of my past pain!
I never wanted “neutral” B&W prints. “Neutral” became a holy grail only after the rise of digital print making and the funny artifacts that inkjet printers produced on monochrome prints. No one sought neutral prints in the distant past of the analog photograph. No one!
Analog prints were selenium toned (decidedly purple) or rarely, brown/sepia toned. And of course there was always a handful of silly people who thought snow scenes should be blue, forest scenes green, etc., etc. Untoned fine art prints were almost unheard of and untoned prints had a sickly green cast in all cases of B&W papers made in the last, well, as far back as could possibly matter.
So, the “neutral” print is very definitely a recent, digital photography affectation. Look at some selenium toned prints alongside so-called “neutral” prints and see if you don’t prefer that subtle but important purple color.

I like brown prints, VERY brown prints. Gave up selenium when I dove off the analog high dive into the digital pool. (No one warned me how deep it would be.)
As it turns out, my problem and your problem are the same problem… color printers want to make color prints! And the makers of color printers DO NOT want to make B&W prints. Though Epson at least nodded in our direction with ABW.

Epson’s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it. But they are warmish as pure carbon inks tend to be. So a “neutral” print requires adding some Cyan to cool off the K inks. And voila(!), you have a color print. But it isn’t even that simple, unfortunately.

When you try to make any print with a uniform color, and “neutral” is a color from the perspective of Epson and its software, you run into the problems everyone has seen. But once you realize you are trying to print a color called “neutral” it is a little easier to understand what is going on and perhaps get some control.

For my brown tone prints (using Epson’s inks) I put a Fill Layer at the very top of my Photoshop layer stack, with the Mode set to color. Then I set my brown tone in that layer to H 43, S 100, B 12 or 13 (in a ProPhoto RGB color space). This gives me the brown I am after in my prints. In theory, I should be able to get that brown the same way I am getting it from my other printer where I use five pure carbon inks (MIS’s Ebony) plus one magenta and one yellow. But I can’t, and I don’t. That is because Epson’s software is deciding for me how ALL the inks should be mixed to give me the brown I have set in my fill layer. The other day my printer (the one with OEM inks) failed and stopped using several inks in the middle of making a print, accidentally showing me what was underneath my brown color. Epson’s software, I discovered, was laying down Cyan underneath all the darker tones in my brown prints. A LOT of cyan! I can’t begin to explain why, but there it was! I don’t want any cyan in my prints, but if I wish to keep printing this way, I have to accept it.

Now, you could use ABW to approach a more neutral print, BUT, those K inks of Epson's are not neutral, which means Epson’s software will mix an unknown quantity of other colors to give you what it thinks you want, whether you use ABW or my approach, though I suspect with my approach there would be a lot more color ink laid down. The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral print without hidden color inks is the “warm tone” setting in ABW, which I understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I would bet money that is not really the case.

So, you can use ABW set to Warm Tone and know you are getting the best that system can offer, or you can try setting it to Neutral and hope you don’t get any of the problems you have already had. Some say those problems were resolved for them by ABW. Because of my need for brown prints, ABW was of no use to me.

Currently the very best solution, likely to eliminate problems under most circumstances, is aftermarket carbon inks (which have the added benefit of saving you a lot of money). MIS’s Ebony would be my recommendation. You prints will range from slightly warm to “neutral”, depending on what paper you print on. (Paper has a strong effect on final print tone.) Others here who have sought the “neutral” grail can tell you a lot more about what inks and papers will give you the result you desire. BTW, if you print glossy, Ebony is out. It won’t work.

One other possibility would be to use QTR to control Epson’s inks, using only the K inks and maybe a little cyan to cool them off. Some here like myself will tell you three grays are not enough, others seem to be satisfied with that. You’ll have to try it and see for yourself.



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs


PO Box 93
Fort Davis, TX 79734
(432) 386-5787





Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-01 by James Petrillo

Hi Ernst,

Thank you for the information. I will do some research.

Jim


On Saturday, November 1, 2014 6:31 AM, "Ernst Dinkla ernst.dinkla@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
Hello Jim,

The Epson Premium Luster has as moderate amount of OBAs and there are only a few RC papers without or with less OBA content. It is a paper very similar to the HP Premium Instant Dry range. You can check that in my SpectrumViz application. There are more things to consider in media choices; gloss difference and bronzing, texture, weight. If that paper works for you then test the alternatives well before you switch.

There is an interesting paradox; the more neutral and more white (higher reflectance) a paper white is, the more the display lighting needs to be consistent to the original viewing light one uses for examining the proofs/prints. With a high white reflection of the paper the ink's color filtering is optimal and you will see the effect of inconstancy of different lamps more, color and light level. The more in B&W prints where any color bias over the tone range is referenced to the color of the total range from paper white to black. I see that with papers that have no OBA content and a high white reflection. Papers with OBA content suffer of the different UV content in light anyway but B&W prints on OBA free papers can have a similar effect. The Innova IFA 24 in particular, which is an inexpensive alpha cellulose matte paper, expensive Canson matte papers show it too. I have an IFA 24 B&W print here with a split tone that changes much during the day due to
 changing light conditions, not just light color but also the amount, nice effect BTW. Papers with a high reflection, quite neutral, almost straight spectral distribution of the reflection, non OBA. I guess if the spectral distribution is irregular the paper white color dampens that effect and one will notice that paper white bias more than the display light change. 

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst 
 
Dinkla Grafische Techniek 
Quad, piëzografie, giclée 
www.pigment-print.com


On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 9:09 PM, James Petrillo japty4644@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
>  
>Hi Ernst,
>
>
>I keep hearing good things about HP Z3100 and 3200 for B and W printing. I also now know that the paper types are important. However, I do not know which papers to purchase at this point. I have primarily been using Epson Premium Luster and get the impression that I should be using something else. I do not know what the Epson Luster's paper white is. Perhaps you can give me a suggestion for a whiter paper, I assume I need a whiter paper. Is that correct?
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:07 PM, "Ernst Dinkla ernst.dinkla@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>
>
>  
>Excellent B&W prints can be made with color printers if the drivers aim at using mainly the monochrome ink channels. Preferably 3, 4 or 5 monochrome inks then. Neutral B&W prints are easier to achieve when the monochrome inks are already near neutral so additional color inks to create neutrality are less needed. It improves constancy between print runs too. Paper white selection is as important for neutral prints. Easy printer calibration tools exist. Of the OEM printers the HP Zs score high on most aspects mentioned here. For the other brands third party solutions can  do a good job.
>Ernst, op de lei getypt.
>On 27 Oct 2014 23:18, "David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> 
>>  
>>I do not know what the next step should be for me to improve this. I have seen duotones as a solution, Piezographic systems and ink, dedicated printers for just B and W, software such as Bowhaus and even Silver Efex to get better results. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that even if you have an image processed well, it is the printer that will add some color to it and cause a cast. Is this correct?
>>
>>
>>Please allow me to attempt to save you some of my past pain!
>>I never wanted “neutral” B&W prints. “Neutral” became a holy grail only after the rise of digital print making and the funny artifacts that inkjet printers produced on monochrome prints. No one sought neutral prints in the distant past of the analog photograph. No one!
>>Analog prints were selenium toned (decidedly purple) or rarely, brown/sepia toned. And of course there was always a handful of silly people who thought snow scenes should be blue, forest scenes green, etc., etc. Untoned fine art prints were almost unheard of and untoned prints had a sickly green cast in all cases of B&W papers made in the last, well, as far back as could possibly matter.
>>So, the “neutral” print is very definitely a recent, digital photography affectation. Look at some selenium toned prints alongside so-called “neutral” prints and see if you don’t prefer that subtle but important purple color.
>>
>>
>>I like brown prints, VERY brown prints. Gave up selenium when I dove off the analog high dive into the digital pool. (No one warned me how deep it would be.)
>>As it turns out, my problem and your problem are the same problem… color printers want to make color prints! And the makers of color printers DO NOT want to make B&W prints. Though Epson at least nodded in our direction with ABW.
>>
>>
>>Epson’s K, LK and LLK are (I believe) pure carbon inks, or close to it. But they are warmish as pure carbon inks tend to be. So a “neutral” print requires adding some Cyan to cool off the K inks. And voila(!), you have a color print. But it isn’t even that simple, unfortunately.
>>
>>
>>When you try to make any print with a uniform color, and “neutral” is a color from the perspective of Epson and its software, you run into the problems everyone has seen. But once you realize you are trying to print a color called “neutral” it is a little easier to understand what is going on and perhaps get some control.
>>
>>
>>For my brown tone prints (using Epson’s inks) I put a Fill Layer at the very top of my Photoshop layer stack, with the Mode set to color. Then I set my brown tone in that layer to H 43, S 100, B 12 or 13 (in a ProPhoto RGB color space). This gives me the brown I am after in my prints. In theory, I should be able to get that brown the same way I am getting it from my other printer where I use five pure carbon inks (MIS’s Ebony) plus one magenta and one yellow. But I can’t, and I don’t. That is because Epson’s software is deciding for me how ALL the inks should be mixed to give me the brown I have set in my fill layer. The other day my printer (the one with OEM inks) failed and stopped using several inks in the middle of making a print, accidentally showing me what was underneath my brown color. Epson’s software, I discovered, was laying down Cyan underneath all the darker tones in my brown prints. A LOT of cyan! I can’t begin to explain
 why, but there it was! I don’t want any cyan in my prints, but if I wish to keep printing this way, I have to accept it.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>>
>>
>>Now, you could use ABW to approach a more neutral print, BUT, those K inks of Epson's are not neutral, which means Epson’s software will mix an unknown quantity of other colors to give you what it thinks you want, whether you use ABW or my approach, though I suspect with my approach there would be a lot more color ink laid down. The closest you can get with ABW to a neutral print without hidden color inks is the “warm tone” setting in ABW, which I understand is supposed to use only the K inks, but knowing what I do now, I would bet money that is not really the case.
>>
>>
>>So, you can use ABW set to Warm Tone and know you are getting the best that system can offer, or you can try setting it to Neutral and hope you don’t get any of the problems you have already had. Some say those problems were resolved for them by ABW. Because of my need for brown prints, ABW was of no use to me.
>>
>>
>>Currently the very best solution, likely to eliminate problems under most circumstances, is aftermarket carbon inks (which have the added benefit of saving you a lot of money). MIS’s Ebony would be my recommendation. You prints will range from slightly warm to “neutral”, depending on what paper you print on. (Paper has a strong effect on final print tone.) Others here who have sought the “neutral” grail can tell you a lot more about what inks and papers will give you the result you desire. BTW, if you print glossy, Ebony is out. It won’t work.
>>
>>
>>One other possibility would be to use QTR to control Epson’s inks, using only the K inks and maybe a little cyan to cool them off. Some here like myself will tell you three grays are not enough, others seem to be satisfied with that. You’ll have to try it and see for yourself.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>David Kachel
>>
>>
>>___________________
>>
>>
>>Artist-Photographer
>>Fine B&W Photographs
>>
>>
>>WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
>>BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
>>EMAIL: david@...
>>
>>
>>PO Box  93
>>Fort Davis, TX 79734
>>(432) 386-5787
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-01 by tyler@...

First a side note, some here are replying to threads in some way yahoo's "new" web presentation does not like, therefore entire posts are empty of text. So, forgive me if there have been issues addressed I have not seen and am repeating. Obviously there are 3rd party B&W inks intended to address hue and other issues to optimize B&W output. I favor that approach, but right now I'd suggest exhausting the options with the printer you have, then moving on if you require higher performance. I had a 6350 on loan for a month and have some experience with it. The B&W output options in the plugin should yield pretty good results, as does the ABW driver for Epsons. It uses far less color inks in the image. As I see suggested, it would not be optimized for non-supported papers, therefore hitting neutral may be a trial and error PITA. It certainly is with ABW.
Some mentioned the lack of interest in the B&W world for "neutral" as a worthy goal, and this would carry over into the 3rd party inks as well, few of them set that as their design priority, or achieve that. "Pleasing" has always been a subjective goal in B&W, both darkroom and ink. So the Canon B&W output may not have been designed specifically for that either, though I don't recall seeing really problematic casts.
The only approach attempting to hit neutral, actually, is color managed color printing. Unfortunately, ink use is not very for B&W output, and the higher colorant component risks more metamerism failure, and now we're back to the viewing and lighting issues others have mentioned. Additionally, color profiling has a lot of tradeoffs to balance when building a profile, obviously perfectly neutral B&W is not necessarily high on the list as opposed to other color matching issues. Extended target profiling like Data Color and spot optimization in i1Profiler may address those issues.
So for niche B&W options, 3rd party drivers have been great for B&W ink, but again, hitting dead neutral is generally not the goal, placing control of your print hue in your hands, with more options intended for B&W enthusiasts, is. So, given the user controls, you may find "neutral" with some tweaking, or many other print hues you will be happy with.
As stated, QTR does not support Canon, but True B&W does, and it's a great tool, definitley worth trying in demo. But again, I doubt you will find a "default" neutral option. All the tools for you to learn and pursue that will be there though. There will be work to do.
I think your options are to thoroughly master the B&W abilities in Canon's plugin, attempt extended gray color profiling using the color driver, and demoing True B&W. If none of that pans out, look at an Epson/ 3rd party ink option. But again, as hitting dead neutral is not a priority with any of these options, except perhaps color profiling, you're on your own to find it, once tools are in your hands to achieve it.
My apologies if all this has been covered in other posts, visible or invisible.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-01 by James Petrillo

Tyler,

Thank you for your response. I agree that I should be able to get where I want to be with my Canon printer. After one or two responses on this site I was made aware that a neutral B and W print was probably not possible and that whatever B and W print I find to be appealing will probably have some color in it. So I essentially need to find a color cast that I like. That is fine.

Could you elaborate on your comment about extending the gray color profiling using the color driver?

Jim


On Saturday, November 1, 2014 3:00 PM, "tyler@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
First a side note, some here are replying to threads in some way yahoo's "new" web presentation does not like, therefore entire posts are empty of text. So, forgive me if there have been issues addressed I have not seen and am repeating. Obviously there are 3rd party B&W inks intended to address hue and other issues to optimize B&W output. I favor that approach, but right now I'd suggest exhausting the options with the printer you have, then moving on if you require higher performance. I had a 6350 on loan for a month and have some experience with it. The B&W output options in the plugin should yield pretty good results, as does the ABW driver for Epsons. It uses far less color inks in the image. As I see suggested, it would not be optimized for non-supported papers, therefore hitting neutral may be a trial and error PITA. It certainly is with ABW.
Some mentioned the lack of interest in the B&W world for "neutral" as a worthy goal, and this would carry over into the 3rd party inks as well, few of them set that as their design priority, or achieve that. "Pleasing" has always been a subjective goal in B&W, both darkroom and ink. So the Canon B&W output may not have been designed specifically for that either, though I don't recall seeing really problematic casts.
The only approach attempting to hit neutral, actually, is color managed color printing. Unfortunately, ink use is not very for B&W output, and the higher colorant component risks more metamerism failure, and now we're back to the viewing and lighting issues others have mentioned. Additionally, color profiling has a lot of tradeoffs to balance when building a profile, obviously perfectly neutral B&W is not necessarily high on the list as opposed to other color matching issues. Extended target profiling like Data Color and spot optimization in i1Profiler may address those issues.
So for niche B&W options, 3rd party drivers have been great for B&W ink, but again, hitting dead neutral is generally not the goal, placing control of your print hue in your hands, with more options intended for B&W enthusiasts, is. So, given the user controls, you may find "neutral" with some tweaking, or many other print hues you will be happy with.
As stated, QTR does not support Canon, but True B&W does, and it's a great tool, definitley worth trying in demo. But again, I doubt you will find a "default" neutral option. All the tools for you to learn and pursue that will be there though. There will be work to do.
I think your options are to thoroughly master the B&W abilities in Canon's plugin, attempt extended gray color profiling using the color driver, and demoing True B&W. If none of that pans out, look at an Epson/ 3rd party ink option. But again, as hitting dead neutral is not a priority with any of these options, except perhaps color profiling, you're on your own to find it, once tools are in your hands to achieve it.
My apologies if all this has been covered in other posts, visible or invisible.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-01 by tyler@...

My wording made it sound like the color drivers have some extended B&W ability themselves.. sorry, not the case. But obviously good printing practice includes good color management, so the workflow will always include using a profile. Others have mentioned that DataColor's software features the ability to make profiles more suited for B&W by extending the sample patches to include a lot of grays, i1Profiler has a similar option, to optimize a profile using a high patch count gray and near gray extended chart.
So the driver has no extended gray ability, but the workflow using the driver does, if special profiles are made for it.. hope that is more clear.
T

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-01 by James Petrillo

Tyler,

Thank you for clearing that up.

Jim




On Saturday, November 1, 2014 3:32 PM, "tyler@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
My wording made it sound like the color drivers have some extended B&W ability themselves.. sorry, not the case. But obviously good printing practice includes good color management, so the workflow will always include using a profile. Others have mentioned that DataColor's software features the ability to make profiles more suited for B&W by extending the sample patches to include a lot of grays, i1Profiler has a similar option, to optimize a profile using a high patch count gray and near gray extended chart.
So the driver has no extended gray ability, but the workflow using the driver does, if special profiles are made for it.. hope that is more clear.
T

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-01 by Terry Ritz

Jim, what paper(s) are you targeting? 

I've created 8300 profiles for Epson Hot Press Natural, Canson Platine and Canson Rag Photographique that I'm happy with. They should work fine on your 6300. If you have any of those papers it would at least give you a data point. 

Terry.

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-01 by James Petrillo

Terry,

I am came from an Epson 3800 that clogged for me and was more than upset about it. So I switched to Canon because they supposedly have less clogs and a different technology. Having said that, I am primarily using Epson Premium Luster and Epson Exhibition Matte Canvas because that is what I have used and generally liked with the 3800. I do think it is time to buy some rolls of media that are reportedly better at producing B and W prints. So I am looking at Epson Velvet Fine Art, Ilford Gold Fiber Silk, Canson Platine Fibre Rag and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta.

Jim 


On Saturday, November 1, 2014 4:18 PM, "Terry Ritz t.ritz@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


  
Jim, what paper(s) are you targeting? 

I've created 8300 profiles for Epson Hot Press Natural, Canson Platine and Canson Rag Photographique that I'm happy with. They should work fine on your 6300. If you have any of those papers it would at least give you a data point. 

Terry.

Re: [Digital BW] How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-01 by Paul Roark

If you don't see the text, click on "Show message history."

Thanks for alerting us to the issue.

Paul
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:00 PM, tyler@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

First a side note, some here are replying to threads in some way yahoo's "new" web presentation does not like, therefore entire posts are empty of text. So, forgive me if there have been issues addressed I have not seen and am repeating. Obviously there are 3rd party B&W inks intended to address hue and other issues to optimize B&W output. I favor that approach, but right now I'd suggest exhausting the options with the printer you have, then moving on if you require higher performance. I had a 6350 on loan for a month and have some experience with it. The B&W output options in the plugin should yield pretty good results, as does the ABW driver for Epsons. It uses far less color inks in the image. As I see suggested, it would not be optimized for non-supported papers, therefore hitting neutral may be a trial and error PITA. It certainly is with ABW.

Some mentioned the lack of interest in the B&W world for "neutral" as a worthy goal, and this would carry over into the 3rd party inks as well, few of them set that as their design priority, or achieve that. "Pleasing" has always been a subjective goal in B&W, both darkroom and ink. So the Canon B&W output may not have been designed specifically for that either, though I don't recall seeing really problematic casts.
The only approach attempting to hit neutral, actually, is color managed color printing. Unfortunately, ink use is not very for B&W output, and the higher colorant component risks more metamerism failure, and now we're back to the viewing and lighting issues others have mentioned. Additionally, color profiling has a lot of tradeoffs to balance when building a profile, obviously perfectly neutral B&W is not necessarily high on the list as opposed to other color matching issues. Extended target profiling like Data Color and spot optimization in i1Profiler may address those issues.
So for niche B&W options, 3rd party drivers have been great for B&W ink, but again, hitting dead neutral is generally not the goal, placing control of your print hue in your hands, with more options intended for B&W enthusiasts, is. So, given the user controls, you may find "neutral" with some tweaking, or many other print hues you will be happy with.
As stated, QTR does not support Canon, but True B&W does, and it's a great tool, definitley worth trying in demo. But again, I doubt you will find a "default" neutral option. All the tools for you to learn and pursue that will be there though. There will be work to do.
I think your options are to thoroughly master the B&W abilities in Canon's plugin, attempt extended gray color profiling using the color driver, and demoing True B&W. If none of that pans out, look at an Epson/ 3rd party ink option. But again, as hitting dead neutral is not a priority with any of these options, except perhaps color profiling, you're on your own to find it, once tools are in your hands to achieve it.
My apologies if all this has been covered in other posts, visible or invisible.
Tyler


Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-03 by japty4644@...

Thank you for all the great responses. I have learned a lot. Bottom line is that I am processing my B and W images on a well calibrated monitor and have the image exactly where I want it in terms of "neutrality". The Canon printer wants to add color and changes my image in the hard proof. I can deal with that. My question at this time is, when viewing the print with some sort of color cast that I do not want, how to I identify and quantify the type of color cast? Example green or magenta is sometimes very difficult to see depending on what light you are viewing it in due to metamerism. If II could quantitatively identify the cast I would think I could just add an adjustment layer of the opposite color and strength on the color wheel to neutralize it. Am I in the ballpark here?

Jim

Re: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-08 by Bob Frost

Sorry for the delay in replying, but AFAIK Mac profiles ARE the same as 
Windows profiles except for the .icc that Apple uses and the .icm that 
Microsoft uses. Both should work on either OS, whatever the extension. Using 
Adobe's CMM  (in Photoshop) on a Mac or Windows should give the same result, 
but Apple's Colorsync CMM is the 'fly in the ointment' as it seems to refuse 
to take a background role in color management as Windows ICM does. I've 
never used a Mac, but I've read a lot about the problems in printing from 
one on Apple's ColorSync list.

But if you know different reasons, I would like to hear them.

Bob Frost
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: Ben Schneider benjschneider2@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]

"No casts with my Windows setups and the same paper profiles."

Mac profiles are not the same as PC profiles.  The Epson site has profiles 
for Macs, and others for PCs.

There must be a difference in the two if Epson offers both!

Re: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-08 by cdtobie

The reason both are offered is, in part, because the print engine can be different through the two OSes. This means that, even if the profile format and function is identical, the thing which is being profiled may not be, so that two different instances may be needed. 

C. David Tobie
Blog: cdtobie.wordpress.com
Site: cdtobie.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Nov 8, 2014, at 3:08 AM, 'Bob Frost' bobfrost@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Sorry for the delay in replying, but AFAIK Mac profiles ARE the same as 
> Windows profiles except for the .icc that Apple uses and the .icm that 
> Microsoft uses. Both should work on either OS, whatever the extension. Using 
> Adobe's CMM (in Photoshop) on a Mac or Windows should give the same result, 
> but Apple's Colorsync CMM is the 'fly in the ointment' as it seems to refuse 
> to take a background role in color management as Windows ICM does. I've 
> never used a Mac, but I've read a lot about the problems in printing from 
> one on Apple's ColorSync list.
> 
> But if you know different reasons, I would like to hear them.
> 
> Bob Frost
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Ben Schneider benjschneider2@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]
> 
> "No casts with my Windows setups and the same paper profiles."
> 
> Mac profiles are not the same as PC profiles. The Epson site has profiles 
> for Macs, and others for PCs.
> 
> There must be a difference in the two if Epson offers both!
> 
>

Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-10 by Ben Schneider

>>>>>>>Sorry for the delay in replying, but AFAIK Mac profiles ARE the same as 
Windows profiles except for the .icc that Apple uses and the .icm that 
Microsoft uses. Both should work on either OS, whatever the extension.<<<<<<

Sorry, but I will disagree.  You can change the suffix and get them to work, but will they work as well as they should?

I am running three Mac print stations all with the same model printer.  The profile from one does not work at its best on the others.  I have tried it.  The difference in the work stations are the OS I am running, and the issue of Photoshop.  They all print differently.  I can not take a good printing file from one station by sneaker net, to another, and have it print the same!

The printers themselves are part of it.  The way that version of photoshop handles the files another.  The files always need tweaking, and they never print the same.  The prints always vary a bit even using the same ink, and paper.  I am not a computer geek, just a user who has noticed this with two decades of digital printing experience.

For the best quality, one needs to do a custom profile for each printer station.  Canned profiles will get you in the ball park, but will need tweaking to work its best.  I am running Mac Pros, and G5s with OS10.4, 10.5, and 10.6.  Photoshops from PS7, CS3, CS4, CS5, and CS6.

  I am not in the cloud!   I like printing from CS3 the best.  It seems to give you more control.

Just my experience,

Ben

Sent from my iPad

Re: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-10 by Jacques Caron

Read the whole bit and.. agreed, CS3 is quite enough for printing!


Le 2014-11-10 à 12:50, "Ben Schneider benjschneider2@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> a écrit :

>>>>>>>Sorry for the delay in replying, but AFAIK Mac profiles ARE the same as
Windows profiles except for the .icc that Apple uses and the .icm that
Microsoft uses. Both should work on either OS, whatever the extension.<<<<<<

Sorry, but I will disagree. You can change the suffix and get them to work, but will they work as well as they should?

I am running three Mac print stations all with the same model printer. The profile from one does not work at its best on the others. I have tried it. The difference in the work stations are the OS I am running, and the issue of Photoshop. They all print differently. I can not take a good printing file from one station by sneaker net, to another, and have it print the same!

The printers themselves are part of it. The way that version of photoshop handles the files another. The files always need tweaking, and they never print the same. The prints always vary a bit even using the same ink, and paper. I am not a computer geek, just a user who has noticed this with two decades of digital printing experience.

For the best quality, one needs to do a custom profile for each printer station. Canned profiles will get you in the ball park, but will need tweaking to work its best. I am running Mac Pros, and G5s with OS10.4, 10.5, and 10.6. Photoshops from PS7, CS3, CS4, CS5, and CS6.

I am not in the cloud! I like printing from CS3 the best. It seems to give you more control.

Just my experience,

Ben

Sent from my iPad


Jacques Caron

Re: [Digital BW] Re: How to get neutral B & W prints

2014-11-10 by Bob Frost

Hi Ben,

I agree that the same printer profile will not give the same identical 
results with three different samples of the same printer. Every printer 
sample varies slightly, which is why Epson produced its Colorbase program so 
that you made a correction 'profile' for each printer that worked behind the 
scenes to set the color back to the designed values. Then they would all 
work with the same Epson printer profile that Epson supplied - the 'canned' 
one that was made on their standard printer. But that didn't catch on 
because people use different non-Epson papers and inks that require custom 
profiles in any case. There is no need to correct the printer, if you've got 
to make a custom profile for other reasons.

But getting back to my complaint, the same printer profile gave different 
results on the same printer, with the same paper and inks. The only 
difference was the OS. That should not happen. The OS should not upset color 
management, but Colorsync has and does. And to think it was the leader in 
color management at one time.

Bob Frost
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: Ben Schneider benjschneider2@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]
Sorry, but I will disagree.  You can change the suffix and get them to work, 
but will they work as well as they should?

I am running three Mac print stations all with the same model printer.  The 
profile from one does not work at its best on the others.  I have tried it. 
The difference in the work stations are the OS I am running, and the issue 
of Photoshop.  They all print differently.  I can not take a good printing 
file from one station by sneaker net, to another, and have it print the 
same!

The printers themselves are part of it.  The way that version of photoshop 
handles the files another.  The files always need tweaking, and they never 
print the same.  The prints always vary a bit even using the same ink, and 
paper.  I am not a computer geek, just a user who has noticed this with two 
decades of digital printing experience.

For the best quality, one needs to do a custom profile for each printer 
station.  Canned profiles will get you in the ball park, but will need 
tweaking to work its best.  I am running Mac Pros, and G5s with OS10.4, 
10.5, and 10.6.  Photoshops from PS7, CS3, CS4, CS5, and CS6.

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.