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100% Carbon Variable Tone inkset

100% Carbon Variable Tone inkset

2014-11-08 by roark.paul@...

I've mentioned to a few people the ink project I'm working on and also mentioned here about the dmax I'm able to achieve on Arches Watercolor (un-coated) paper. I'm starting to write it up now, and the first few pages of the PDF might be of interest to some people on this forum. The (very incomplete) PDF for the new inkset arrangement is posted here:


http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Carbon-Variable-Tone.pdf


Let me know your thoughts and suggestions. This is a beta and project that is not complete or set in stone. I am, however, about ready to scale it to the 7800, where some new and different issues will present themselves.


Note that for the 1400 family, Eboni-6 can be set up in this basic arrangement rather easily, though the inks are slightly different.


FWIW


Paul

PaulRoark.com -- Paul Roark's Photographic Home


Re: [Digital BW] 100% Carbon Variable Tone inkset

2014-11-08 by pdesmidt tds.net

That technique holds lots of promise. In particular, Arches prints with 1.75 dmax is quite an achievement! Thank you for your willingness to experiment and, especially, for sharing your results so generously.
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On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 5:06 PM, roark.paul@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I've mentioned to a few people the ink project I'm working on and also mentioned here about the dmax I'm able to achieve on Arches Watercolor (un-coated) paper. I'm starting to write it up now, and the first few pages of the PDF might be of interest to some people on this forum. The (very incomplete) PDF for the new inkset arrangement is posted here:


http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Carbon-Variable-Tone.pdf


Let me know your thoughts and suggestions. This is a beta and project that is not complete or set in stone. I am, however, about ready to scale it to the 7800, where some new and different issues will present themselves.


Note that for the 1400 family, Eboni-6 can be set up in this basic arrangement rather easily, though the inks are slightly different.


FWIW


Paul

PaulRoark.com -- Paul Roark's Photographic Home

PaulRoark.com -- Paul Roark's Photographic Home
Paul Roark Black and White Photography
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Re: 100% Carbon Variable Tone inkset

2014-11-09 by ccolbert@...

I agree, this is a big step. The watercolor papers are very nice.

I have not been able to get more than about 1.4 or so out of Eboni and Arches. This is with a 7600. Perhaps it suffers from the same limited dmax as the 4000? Any idea if the new ink or 2 MX might help here?

thanks,
Costa

Re: 100% Carbon Variable Tone inkset

2014-11-10 by paulmwhiting@...

I'm very excited to see this update on our b/w printing. I hope to see this thread generate much discussion.

I finally had to bid farewell to my 3MK/R1800 setup, but the constant clogging of that printer got to be too much. Paul said he was much happier with the 1400 - I found a rare refurb on the Epson site and snatched it up right away. I too am happier with it... today, after several idle weeks, I did a nozzle check on the 1400, got a bad check, ran the head clean just once, and all was well. What a difference.

But I found my prints with the 1800 had more "punch" in the blacks and so this new inkset shows much promise. I've printed out and studied the pdf and am eager to see how this develops.

Thanks Paul, for your continued research and contributions to the b/w community on this group.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Re: 100% Carbon Variable Tone inkset

2014-11-10 by Paul Roark

I don't know about the 7600. I had one for a brief while and got rid of it. I forget why, but it could have been my disappointment with the dmax. I'll scale the system to the 7800 in the next few weeks and see how it does with that printer.

Paul
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On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 3:34 PM, ccolbert@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I agree, this is a big step. The watercolor papers are very nice.


I have not been able to get more than about 1.4 or so out of Eboni and Arches. This is with a 7600. Perhaps it suffers from the same limited dmax as the 4000? Any idea if the new ink or 2 MX might help here?

thanks,
Costa


Re: [Digital BW] Re: 100% Carbon Variable Tone inkset

2014-11-10 by Paul Roark

Paul W., I think you're going to like this new arrangement. Note that you can buy a second Eb6-K and see how it works with your current carts. However, I have not tested it with "classic" Eboni. I thought this transition in the up-stream ink manufacturer was the time to implement change.

Paul
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On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 6:11 PM, paulmwhiting@yahoo.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I'm very excited to see this update on our b/w printing. I hope to see this thread generate much discussion.

I finally had to bid farewell to my 3MK/R1800 setup, but the constant clogging of that printer got to be too much. Paul said he was much happier with the 1400 - I found a rare refurb on the Epson site and snatched it up right away. I too am happier with it... today, after several idle weeks, I did a nozzle check on the 1400, got a bad check, ran the head clean just once, and all was well. What a difference.

But I found my prints with the 1800 had more "punch" in the blacks and so this new inkset shows much promise. I've printed out and studied the pdf and am eager to see how this develops.

Thanks Paul, for your continued research and contributions to the b/w community on this group.

Paul


Re: [Digital BW] Re: 100% Carbon Variable Tone inkset

2014-11-10 by paulmwhiting@...

Paul,

First of all I've got almost a full pint of the "old" Eboni to use up... and this 1400/Eb6 sips ink compared to my old 1800. Not complaining, mind you!

But when I'm ready to try this new inkset, won't the second K cartridge need to be chipped as yellow? Yet if I understand your pdf correctly however, it doesn't seem to matter. You'll recall my fiasco several days ago when I carelessly interchanged my LM and LC carts. Colleagues I talked with around here were surprised the printer even printed - their experience was a printer with misplaced carts simply would not even print.

Anyway, an exciting development and I look forward to see how this plays out. Thanks so much for this new direction.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Re: 100% Carbon Variable Tone inkset

2014-11-10 by Paul Roark

Paul,

The basic concept of what I'm doing applies to the old Eboni inks as well as the "new" (which are supposed to be identical to the old but I find print slightly differently -- in fact my last batch of the "old" Eboni was nto consistent with either the 2 year old or new inks).

It appears that you have chip version 6.3, where the carts are not ink-position specific. So, you can juggle the ink order of your current setup. As you discovered, this is a double edged sword. People are able to install the carts improperly and not know about it by the printer refusing to recognize the misplaced carts as invalid.

Note that in this round of experimentation and profile making, I have not only come up with this alternative Eboni/Carbon-6 ink arrangement -- "Carbon Variable Tone" beta -- but I also have made a number of profiles for the standard Eboni-6 arrangement. They are not posted yet because MIS is not selling the new Eboni as far as I know.

With the variable tone arrangement, one thing I'm experimenting with is profiles that are very insensitive to variables such as ink mixing, ink and paper batch differences, and even totally different papers. Getting a carbon inkset that is more flexible and easier to live with is part of the project. This needs to be simple and as problem-free as possible for a wider market to be able to take advantage of the benefits this approach offers -- like the best image stability and lowest cost.

Paul

Re: 100% Carbon Variable Tone inkset

2014-11-10 by richard@...

Thank you for doing all the testing and experimenting with these new inks. I will be following this closely as it develops.

I have a few questions about your approach for this new matte black ink from the new supplier. When you create a variable tone ink set are you actually making curve that utilize two sets of 3K dilutions, or is this a 5 dilution ink set with the sixth ink as a "toning ink"?

As for the 2MK profiles for uncoated Arches (cold/hot press?): are these two 100% matte black inks or is one a dilution to fill in the gaps and punch up the dmax? As for Dmax, that is a lot of density. However, something I have always wondered about with your profiles has been: what is happening to the spread/bleed of the dot and how to maintain detail on uncoated papers? I haven't had a chance to test it for myself, although my workload is starting to slow down and I will have more time to mess with this stuff.

I made a few prints this morning with my newly created profiles for Canson Edition Etching and they are easily some of the better prints I have made since I had to hang up the Cone Piezotone dual quads.

Richard Boutwell

Re: [Digital BW] Re: 100% Carbon Variable Tone inkset

2014-11-10 by Paul Roark

Hi Richard,

The "Carbon Variable Tone" beta I'm experimenting with is all 100% "Eboni" carbon, and all inks are dilutions of "Eboni-6" but with the new (potentially) Eboni. I have diluted them with my generic c6c base. So, the approach is or should be easily available to the those who are interested. I'll test whatever ink MIS settles on for it's MK. They have my feedback on this STS version (which is a mixed bag, but on net worth my paying the bucks and taking the time to scale my 7800 to it).

Part of my testing, and this new ink arrangement obviously came out of my need to test what appeared to be the "new" Eboni. I need ink for my own printing, and when a new supplier takes over, I need to know what we're dealing with. As long as I'm going to have to change and re-profile, I might as well explore the alternatives, and this "variable tone" carbon approach has some aspects that really appeal to me.

The variability comes from the different tones that the carbon prints with when it is at different dilutions. The paper characteristics are one variable, but, in general for inkjet matte paper, 100% Eboni MK is almost dead neutral. (And that is a big reason that carbon was selected by me and Bob Zeiss originally.) The dilute Eboni carbon is warmer. The warmth peaks out at the "M"/"LK" densities (18%). Eb6-Y (2%) can be quite neutral on a minority of inkjet papers.

So, the profiles don't juggle between 2 different carbons, and there is no "toner" with color inks in this inkset. The profiles use different combinations of dilutions of Eboni to change the warmth of the print.

This can be done with either QTR or the Epson driver (in combination with Photoshop image adjustment curves, best used in linearized ICCs made with QTR's Create ICC-RGB. (That opens up a color managed Windows workflow.)

I happen to think it is important that, particularly at the desktop level, an inkset print well with the Epson driver, even when no profile at all is selected by the photographer. For wide format, I'm less concerned, but surprisingly, there are very good photographers with wide format printers who simply use the Epson driver with Eboni-6. (Those of us who enjoy profiling are a very small minority.) With the 1.5 pl desktop printers, the MK in the Y position is hidden very well. With wide format printers, that K is going to be visible. The traditional Eboni-6 arrangement is not being abandoned by me; the same inks are used in both setups -- even the same carts on the 1400 family platform since the chips are not position specific.

One of the most interesting profiles to look at is the QTR "Cool-smoother" profile. There I use 2 MKs. That gets rid of microbanding, but is obviously not as smooth as a multi-dilution, partitioned inkset. Note that I draw the K curves manually. This is easy, and manual curves are going to play an important role is where I'm going because they can fine-tune a profile even after it is linearized.

Part of the 3-MK and now 2MK approach is to stagger the starting points of the MK inks. It's smoother that way.

To smooth the 2MK graininess -- mostly in the midtones, probably due to the dithering, not the ink dots themselves -- I wanted to use the ink that would warm the print the least. So, I turned to the 2% dilution. Most inkjet papers (not watercolor papers) can hold an enormous load of this dilute ink. Also, the MK channels pour relatively little water into the paper. So, I can crank up the 2% about as high as I want to, depending on how smooth I think the print needs to be. I'm not sure I've ever seen banding with the 2% ink. So this profile just lays down a rather heavy load of gray that acts to reduce the contrast of the 2MK stochastic/random dithering pattern.

I am definitely not a slave to pixel peeping the highlights for dots. That is simply not what I see people react to in B&W photography. As long as the pattern is not a distraction from the photo, I don't care how many inks are used. If 3 makes the best neutral print for the image I'm working on, then I don't care that 3 other inks are ignored and not used. On the other hand, if I need more smoothness, I just pull in the fully partitioned profile and use QTR sliders to balance smoothness with print tone.

Watecolor papers are a different breed. The use of the 2 MKs seems to actually increase the potential maximum dmax. Part of this may be from the ability to go over the 100% ink load of QTR. Watercolor papers are made to take a lot of water. Actually, what I find with Arches is that the dot gain or wicking of the ink out along the paper fibers is not bad with the MK, but quite bad with the 2% K. With the test strips I have, I look at the numbers/text to see what is happening to the edges. The Cone profiling that at least used to use light inks in the 100% black position actually had signigicantly more of a problem than I'm seeing. I avoid light inks at the end of the scale, and the watercolor papers can sometimes take an enormous load there.

Paul
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On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 9:30 AM, richard@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thank you for doing all the testing and experimenting with these new inks. I will be following this closely as it develops.


I have a few questions about your approach for this new matte black ink from the new supplier. When you create a variable tone ink set are you actually making curve that utilize two sets of 3K dilutions, or is this a 5 dilution ink set with the sixth ink as a "toning ink"?

As for the 2MK profiles for uncoated Arches (cold/hot press?): are these two 100% matte black inks or is one a dilution to fill in the gaps and punch up the dmax? As for Dmax, that is a lot of density. However, something I have always wondered about with your profiles has been: what is happening to the spread/bleed of the dot and how to maintain detail on uncoated papers? I haven't had a chance to test it for myself, although my workload is starting to slow down and I will have more time to mess with this stuff.

I made a few prints this morning with my newly created profiles for Canson Edition Etching and they are easily some of the better prints I have made since I had to hang up the Cone Piezotone dual quads.

Richard Boutwell


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