Digital BW, The Print

Antonis,

Your wrote:

>I found with my 1160 that I lost the midtones after a
>period of inactivity, even though nozzle checks were clean.

I may be having a similar problem with my 1160 and the Generations color I
have in a CIS -- that mostly sits there unused.  The nozzle checks finally
got perfect after a lot of cleaning, but when I go to print a purge pattern
the inks start to band really badly after being solid for a while.  I can
print snapshots fine, because there is not enough solid color for long
enough to trigger the problem.  However, I suspect with a large print I'd
get banding half way through it.

It acts like there is a small reserve of ink that the printer can pull
through the system easily, but when that reserve is gone, it can't deliver a
solid color any more.  Very weird.  With newly-filled carts the 1160 has
none of these problems.

>It should be standard procedure to print a grayscale and check it
>against a known good sample (or read it with a densitometer) ...

We might get very depressed.  These printers are not all that consistent.
My 1160 often seems to need to warm up for about an hour before it gets to
where it was the day before.  Then on other days, it is rock solid from the
beginning.

>... do these inks settle?

Well, of course, one seller tells me that the other seller's inks settle --
what a surprise.  I'd guess we all ought to be agitating the pigmented inks.
Brownian motion is supposed to keep the inks suspended, but ....  With the
CIS units, it's fairly easy to swish them around.  Maybe with my 3000 I'll
just have to pick the whole thing up and give it a few inversion agitations.
;)

Actually, I'm not sure I have ever detected any settling in any of the inks.
I'm just suspicious by nature.

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Antonis,
> 
> Your wrote:
> 
> >I found with my 1160 that I lost the midtones after a
> >period of inactivity, even though nozzle checks were clean.
> 

Well, you're desribing one of the main symptoms of "Density Shift 
Syndrome" alias "DSS", alias "Hayes Syndrome". You might go back and 
search this list and the Piezo list for that. I and others have 
documented the problem fully in the past, and there's enough info out 
there now to just do a search. More than the midtones change, it's 
scary. And it's tough to fully cure.
Jim H.

Jim,

Have you resolved the problems you were having? Getting any prints done?


Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jimhayes361 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:26 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Clogging problems (personal update)


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
  <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
  > Antonis,
  > 
  > Your wrote:
  > 
  > >I found with my 1160 that I lost the midtones after a
  > >period of inactivity, even though nozzle checks were clean.
  > 

  Well, you're desribing one of the main symptoms of "Density Shift 
  Syndrome" alias "DSS", alias "Hayes Syndrome". You might go back and 
  search this list and the Piezo list for that. I and others have 
  documented the problem fully in the past, and there's enough info out 
  there now to just do a search. More than the midtones change, it's 
  scary. And it's tough to fully cure.
  Jim H. 



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike, I switched to MIS VM inks. All was well on an 1160 printer 
until December, when the humidity here drops to 20% or less. Two weeks 
of inactivity clogged my 1160.

Rather then fully deal with it, I switched to an 1280, which I like 
better for it's quality of output. I use curves I got from Paul to 
print on a PC at 2880, still needing slight tweaks, instead of the 
standard 1440 from MIS site. I don't mind waiting for the extra nice 
output, though some will say it's not THAT much better than at 1440.

I'm currently using Vacuum fill with virgin carts. Actually, I was one 
of the later "testers" of the procedure for MIS. I made some 
suggestions to them, and I think based on both Paul's and my input, 
they made the production tubing between "Y" and vacuum pump fitting 
longer recently.

I am ready to jump towards a CFS. I'm waiting for a couple of things 
to get finalized.

I do get many more clogs than most people with VM in my 1280 and I now 
humidify the room to a minimum of 35%, 40-45% prefferred. I turn 
printer on every day twice and run a quick draft print to keep ink in 
nozzles fresh. It uses up a lot of ink- so I'm waiting for CFS with 
the new cart clamps with clearance for tubing but that will still hold 
down carts in place to be made by MIS (not just available as 
trade-ins).

It is a royal pain to baby sit printer in this manner and impractical 
in long term unless I have a CFS or CIS. I may end up building the CFS 
myself when the cart clamps and other stuff is finalized. My plan B is 
to go with a 3000 if the 1280 just perma-clogs. I'm expecting some 
relief now that Spring is coming to the Rockies and humidity will 
naturally rise to maybe 40%.

I seem to be entrenched in the MIS VM camp, partly because they still 
(for me) have less problems than other inksets, for all the clogging 
pushups I do. But I think good prints can be done with other inksets/ 
setups.

I am getting prints done now, but sometimes I have to clear a clog 
first. Oh well. I really need to get that CFS/CIS in there.
Jim H.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
> Jim,
> 
> Have you resolved the problems you were having? Getting any prints 
done?
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: jimhayes361 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:26 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Clogging problems (personal update)
> 
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
>   <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>   > Antonis,
>   > 
>   > Your wrote:
>   > 
>   > >I found with my 1160 that I lost the midtones after a
>   > >period of inactivity, even though nozzle checks were clean.
>   > 
> 
>   Well, you're desribing one of the main symptoms of "Density Shift 
>   Syndrome" alias "DSS", alias "Hayes Syndrome". You might go back 
and 
>   search this list and the Piezo list for that. I and others have 
>   documented the problem fully in the past, and there's enough info 
out 

>   there now to just do a search. More than the midtones change, it's 
>   scary. And it's tough to fully cure.
>   Jim H. 
>

Jim,

I am aware of those threads. Didn't know if this was the same thing or not. You 
say it is, so I'll take your word. In my experience, it wasn't anything as horrific 
as I remember. A severe drop in the midtones that came back after a while 
and that hasn't happened again because I now make sure to agitate the inks.

Of course, I wouldn't want to know how this 1160 would look to a densitometer 
day to day....  Let's remember we are all one big science lab and things go 
puff! from time to time. This is by no means "mature and stable" technology, to 
say the least!!


Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jimhayes361" <jimhayes@j...> 
wrote:

> Well, you're desribing one of the main symptoms of "Density Shift 
> Syndrome" alias "DSS", alias "Hayes Syndrome". You might go back and 
> search this list and the Piezo list for that. I and others have 
> documented the problem fully in the past, and there's enough info out 
> there now to just do a search. More than the midtones change, it's 
> scary. And it's tough to fully cure.
> Jim H.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "antonisphoto" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> Jim,
> 
> I am aware of those threads. Didn't know if this was the same thing 
or not. You 
> say it is, so I'll take your word. In my experience, it wasn't 
anything as horrific 
> as I remember. A severe drop in the midtones that came back after a 
while


Well, please understand that you really have to look for the 5 or so 
symptoms RELATIVE to a past print done at least 3 weeks previous. 

Also, I would usually find more than one symptom at once. So if I just 
noticed a flattening of midtones, I'd be worried, but I would hesitate 
to label it DSS until maybe a second , possibly third symptom was 
apparent (like say, a shift towards lighter highlights or increase in 
posterization-esp around 75%k).

My only worry is that flattening of midtones for me was one of the 
more obvious symptoms, easier to detect. And you describe it pretty 
much as I saw it on my own prints. But I'm not saying you have DSS- 
you have to report in more symptoms first comparing to an older print.

The first time I got DSS I got rid of roughly 90% of it by running 
Epson carts for awhile, then reinstalling CIS. The second time when it 
came back, this only restored it maybe 75-80% of normal. Mike I think 
got rid of just about all of it but he had to resort to direct 
injection of head, if I recall.
 
> and that hasn't happened again because I now make sure to agitate 
the inks.

That's interesting. I refrained from speculating on possible causes of 
DSS because I didn't have the knowledge or resourses to tackle the 
issue- I defferred to Cone. I guess what you're doing would point to 
ink settling? I never tried doing this, but I should have thought of 
it. The bottles did get disturbed when CIS was pulled/reinstalled 
after Epson cart flushing.

> 
> Of course, I wouldn't want to know how this 1160 would look to a 
densitometer 
> day to day....

The reason I was such a stickler about DSS was that, without the 
knowledge of what to look for, a person could put a curve on their 
file so the output looked good. As the problem got better or worse, 
this curve would also keep changing. And if it was saved in 8 bit- 
comb city.

  Let's remember we are all one big science lab and 
things go 
> puff! from time to time. This is by no means "mature and stable" 
technology, to 
> say the least!!

I agree wholeheartedly. I hope in a year or two, something nice and 
stable, predictable, reliable etc, comes through. Maybe Epson will 
give a complete solution with this new 7 inker.(?)
Jim H.

> 
> 
> Antonis
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jimhayes361" 
<jimhayes@j...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Well, you're desribing one of the main symptoms of "Density Shift 
> > Syndrome" alias "DSS", alias "Hayes Syndrome". You might go back 
and 
> > search this list and the Piezo list for that. I and others have 
> > documented the problem fully in the past, and there's enough info 
out 

> > there now to just do a search. More than the midtones change, it's 
> > scary. And it's tough to fully cure.
> > Jim H.

Earlier today, after a successful nozzle check, I tried to print on 
an 1160 w/CIS an 11-sheet (8.5 x 11) run on Epson Archival Matte 
(EAM) of a page which included two small prints and about half a page 
of text. The last five and a half sheets printed very light, and a 
nozzle check print made me think that at the end of the run only a 
few of the black nozzles were printing at all. Judging from an 
examination of the light last half of the run, the stoppage had been 
abrupt as well as nearly complete as far as the black goes.

After a single cleaning, fewer than half of the black nozzles seemed 
to print on the "confirmation" nozzle check. After a second , nearly 
all seemed to print. And after a third, I got the perfect nozzle 
check I am used to seeing the first thing every morning and the last 
thing every evening. (If I haven't printed anything else, I also 
print a purge pattern.)

One at a time, I re-printed the six spoiled sheets after a nozzle 
check before each one. The fourth nozzle check had scattered gaps, 
again only in the black rows in the top of the pattern. After a 
single cleaning, there were no gaps.

This black ink is the black from the new MIS VM Sepia-Neutral (SN) 
quantone inkset. It, however, uses the same black as the other MIS VM 
quadtone inkset, which is not new and which has reportedly been 
relatively clog-free. So I wonder whether I in fact had a clog.

When I installed the new CIS and the Sepia-Neutral inkset on top of 
the OEM inks about a month ago, everything went smoothly. My first 
after-installation nozzle check showed a few defects in the black 
(only). The second nozzle check showed none. Neither did any of 
several purge prints, nor any of several step-test prints, nor any of 
my first print-exchange prints (20 sets of two pages). By now I think 
all of the OEM ink should be gone from the printer.

My experience with the first and only OEM cartridges, which were not 
quite low enough to turn the lights on before they were replaced, was 
similar. I've had to mimic replacing the color cartridge twice since 
installing the CIS (I re-set the black at the same time.) So the 
printer has processed in total roughly the equivalent of one - two 
black cartridges and two - three color cartridges. Half of it OEM ink.

To put it differently, the ink levels in the four-ounce Nalgene 
bottles are near the top of the acrylic stand in which they 
optionally sit. That is, the ink levels are about two and one-eighth 
inches above the surface on which the stand and the printer sit, or 
about one inch below the shoulder of the bottles.

The black ink is slightly lower than the others. At first it seemed a 
lot lower. But I think only because the black cartridge is larger 
than the spaces for C, M, and Y. I didn't think of that until after 
I'd ordered a supplementary bottle of black. So I could fill the 
black bottle up (to just below the shoulder that is). Or I could 
replace it with a freshly filled bottle. But of course the problem, 
if it was an ink problem and any of it remains, is presumably far 
downstream from the bottles.

I'd be glad for any advice or even just any intelligence about how 
this stoppage might have happened.  It seems to me implausible that 
it was a clog, but I also don't see how air could have gotten in the 
system.

Thanks.

Sam McCandless             samcc@...