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the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-16 by paulmwhiting@...

I'm a subscriber to their newsletter, and I use their paper as well. I'm in no way employed by that company to say this, but I like their paper and I'm due for another order.

The last couple of newsletters contain a feature on Paul Roark and his method of carbon ink printing, which I also use. I was glad to see him get some publicity as well as his technique of carbon printing. I learned one thing that somehow I must have missed over the years, and that is that Paul does not display his photos under glass. It so happens that lately I've had two photos on my wall, same subject, one with and one without glass, and I've noticed I prefer the print displayed without glass.

I'd like to hear from other members here on this issue. Glass or no glass... let's hear some opinions! One concern I would have is... what about dust?

Paul W.

Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-16 by Dr. Elliot Puritz

The common advice is to frame digital ink jet color prints under glass to
prevent, or at least attenuate, the harmful effects of atmospheric
pollutants and UV light.  I am not sure if similar deleterious effects will
affect prints made with carbon inks.  Protective aspects aside, I agree that
in many cases glazing can degrade the visual experience conveyed by framed
prints.  Consequently-having found that such glazing is the least
"intrusive"-when possible I will use the highest quality museum glass with
UV protective and antireflective properties.  From the "normal viewing
distances" I do not find such glazing degrades the visual experience to
significant degree

 

Elliot

Re: [Digital BW] the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-16 by Philip Lindsay

I stopped using glass for my home displays years ago but I have a controlled environment, eg. no direct sun light, no kids with ice cream cones or other such sources of foreign contamination and frequent dust cleaning with a feather brush to avoid dirt buildup. I flush mount my images on Dibond aluminum composite and rely on Print Shield for protection. The absence of glass is especially effective in displaying matte surface prints such as Epson Hot Press Bright.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
      From: "paulmwhiting@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2018 6:08 PM
 Subject: [Digital BW] the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?
   
    I'm a subscriber to their newsletter, and I use their paper as well. I'm in no way employed by that company to say this, but I like their paper and I'm due for another order.

The last couple of newsletters contain a feature on Paul Roark and his method of carbon ink printing, which I also use. I was glad to see him get some publicity as well as his technique of carbon printing. I learned one thing that somehow I must have missed over the years, and that is that Paul does not display his photos under glass. It so happens that lately I've had  two photos on my wall, same subject, one with and one without glass, and I've noticed I prefer the print displayed without glass.

I'd like to hear from other members here on this issue. Glass or no glass... let's hear some opinions! One concern I would have is... what about dust? 

Paul W.

Re: [Digital BW] the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-16 by Paul Roark

Lately, what I have been doing most frequently is using a 44 inch roll of Red River satin paper with my glossy carbon variable tone ink arrangement. (For a 1430 version of this inkset, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Glossy-Carbon-Variable-Tone.pdf. What I actually use in my 9800 is this: http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-Glossy-Carbon-Variable-Tone-2016.pdf. It allows glossy as will as Arches printing, which requires 2 MK positions for a good dmax. Most casual printers will want to avoid Arches.)

For the glossy prints I dry mount them on acid free foam core and spray them with Premier Art Print Shield (solvent based) for protection (4 coats with just a few minutes between coats; prints are hung vertically to reduce dust settling on them; I use an open garage as a "spray booth", wear goggles and don't breath). For prints that exceed the size of my pre-coated, heat-activated 24x36 inch foam core, I have the closest service bureau mount the prints on gator board. My success rate with spray adhesives (Scotch 77) and large prints is just too low for me to be comfortable with them.

I should add, however, that I'm ambivalent about the glossy prints in the sense that with primarily carbon images I think physical damage is going to be the limiting factor. The reality of sales through my local gallery is, however, that all the buyers seem to care about is the image. I, personally, think "carbon on cotton" (100% carbon on Arches Hot Press 140 lb. -- full 22x30 sheets) under museum glass is the ultimate, and I'm looking at two of those in my office now. The potential life of such prints is extreme.

Paul

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 8:11 AM Philip Lindsay fotophil@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I stopped using glass for my home displays years ago but I have a controlled environment, eg. no direct sun light, no kids with ice cream cones or other such sources of foreign contamination and frequent dust cleaning with a feather brush to avoid dirt buildup. I flush mount my images on Dibond aluminum composite and rely on Print Shield for protection. The absence of glass is especially effective in displaying matte surface prints such as Epson Hot Press Bright.


Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "paulmwhiting@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2018 6:08 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

I'm a subscriber to their newsletter, and I use their paper as well. I'm in no way employed by that company to say this, but I like their paper and I'm due for another order.

The last couple of newsletters contain a feature on Paul Roark and his method of carbon ink printing, which I also use. I was glad to see him get some publicity as well as his technique of carbon printing. I learned one thing that somehow I must have missed over the years, and that is that Paul does not display his photos under glass. It so happens that lately I've had two photos on my wall, same subject, one with and one without glass, and I've noticed I prefer the print displayed without glass.

I'd like to hear from other members here on this issue. Glass or no glass... let';s hear some opinions! One concern I would have is... what about dust?

Paul W.


RE: [Digital BW] the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-16 by Dr. Elliot Puritz

Interesting information Philip, and thanks for the post.  As you of course know, some opine that behind glazing-and from the normal viewing distance that depends upon the size of the print-the surfaces of matte papers as compared to glossy papers look rather similar.  I have little personal experience in such comparisons.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> 
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 11:11 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Cc: PHILIP LINDSAY <fotophil@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

 

  

I stopped using glass for my home displays years ago but I have a controlled environment, eg. no direct sun light, no kids with ice cream cones or other such sources of foreign contamination and frequent dust cleaning with a feather brush to avoid dirt buildup. I flush mount my images on Dibond aluminum composite and rely on Print Shield for protection. The absence of glass is especially effective in displaying matte surface prints such as Epson Hot Press Bright.



 

  _____  

From: "paulmwhiting@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2018 6:08 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

 

  

I'm a subscriber to their newsletter, and I use their paper as well. I'm in no way employed by that company to say this, but I like their paper and I'm due for another order.

 

The last couple of newsletters contain a feature on Paul Roark and his method of carbon ink printing, which I also use. I was glad to see him get some publicity as well as his technique of carbon printing. I learned one thing that somehow I must have missed over the years, and that is that Paul does not display his photos under glass. It so happens that lately I've had  two photos on my wall, same subject, one with and one without glass, and I've noticed I prefer the print displayed without glass.

 

I'd like to hear from other members here on this issue. Glass or no glass... let's hear some opinions! One concern I would have is... what about dust? 

 

Paul W.

 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-16 by paulmwhiting@...

Thanks all... I did mention I use Red River paper but didn't say what kind. It's Aurora Art Natural 2S. That's for a family archive project because it comes in convenient 5x7 and 4x6 sizes. But for art projects I've been using Premier Art FineArt Smooth, 205 gsm in 8 1/2 x 11 and 13 x 19, this paper had high marks from Paul early on although he uses a heavier version. RR paper is a bit easier to find, an informative newsletter and a library of FAQ's.

Paul W.

www.paulwhitingphotography.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-16 by Paul Roark

That Premier Art Fine Art Smooth 205 was, I believe, the paper Epson re-branded as their most archival paper. I forget the name they used. One interesting aspect of the deal was that Epson got the exterior of the very large rolls, and Premier Art got the interiors. This gave the Premier Art brand more curl than the Epson label product. After this, Epson also appears to have learned that the contracts with Premier Art had to include clauses that stopped Premier Art from disclosing this type of information.

Paul W. is right that I preferred the 325 gsm version of this paper. One thing that I found curious, however, is that the thinner version, supposedly with the same coating, often seemed to produce a better dmax. I also think I saw this with H. Photo Rag in comparing their 188 gsm to their thicker one.

Paul
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 3:06 PM paulmwhiting@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thanks all... I did mention I use Red River paper but didn't say what kind. It's Aurora Art Natural 2S. That's for a family archive project because it comes in convenient 5x7 and 4x6 sizes. But for art projects I've been using Premier Art FineArt Smooth, 205 gsm in 8 1/2 x 11 and 13 x 19, this paper had high marks from Paul early on although he uses a heavier version. RR paper is a bit easier to find, an informative newsletter and a library of FAQ's.

Paul W.

Re: [Digital BW] the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-17 by Steve Kale

I would recommend to anyone poking around with fine art digital black and white printing at whatever level to purchase one of Paul Roark’s prints. You will get a masterpiece example of what can be achieved, a benchmark by which you can judge your own printing capabilities.  (Of course it would also be a nice way of repaying Paul in some tiny way for the immense amount of work he has done for all interested in B&W printing.) One of his prints has pride of place above our fireplace.  On matt paper, behind glass, it utterly smashes a David Brookover print on some sort of semi-gloss for dMax, detail and lack of bronzing.  I love David’s image (a wedding gift) but just wish I could get printed properly by someone like Paul. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On 16 Jul 2018, at 18:50, Paul Roark roark.paul@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> That Premier Art Fine Art Smooth 205 was, I believe, the paper Epson re-branded as their most archival paper.  I forget the name they used..  One interesting aspect of the deal was that Epson got the exterior of the very large rolls, and Premier Art got the interiors.  This gave the Premier Art brand more curl than the Epson label product.  After this, Epson also appears to have learned that the contracts with Premier Art had to include clauses that stopped Premier Art from disclosing this type of information.
> 
> Paul W.. is right that I preferred the 325 gsm version of this paper.   One thing that I found curious, however, is that the thinner version, supposedly with the same coating, often seemed to produce a better dmax.  I also think I saw this with H. Photo Rag in comparing their 188 gsm to their thicker one.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> 
> 
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 3:06 PM paulmwhiting@... <mailto:paulmwhiting@yahoo.com> [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>  
> 
> Thanks all... I did mention I use Red River paper but didn't say what kind. It's Aurora Art Natural 2S. That's for a family archive project because it comes in convenient 5x7 and 4x6 sizes. But for art projects I've been using Premier Art FineArt Smooth, 205 gsm in 8 1/2 x 11 and 13 x 19, this paper had high marks from Paul early on although he uses a heavier version. RR paper is a bit easier to find, an informative newsletter and a library of FAQ's.
> 
> Paul W.
> 
> www.paulwhitingphotography.com <http://www.paulwhitingphotography.com/>
> 
> 
>

Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-25 by paulmwhiting@...

Paul,

"For the glossy prints I dry mount them on acid free foam core and spray them with Premier Art Print Shield..."

If memory serves, I saw in some cases you use Lascaux Fixativ... is the choice of spray a matter of glossy vs matte paper? Perhaps the Lascaux is better for matte paper? I thought I read somewhere that the Premier Art spray weakened the DMax somewhat.

Paul W.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-25 by Paul Roark

The Lascaux seems to be a thinner, less viscous spray with a solvent that does not evaporate as quickly. It may penetrate the paper better and lock up the innards of the ink receptor coating. Working from memory, I think I may have used it when I was experimenting with dyes on metallic paper because I didn't want to alter their look. (I no longer use dyes for any serious work. I think their longevity is exaggerated by the Wilhelm and other tests.) Also, the best longevity ratings I've heard of for inkjet prints may be those that used Lascaux spray first, and then the Print Shield later. I suspect that while the Lascaux penetrated the coating better, the Print Shield blocked the pores and laid a coating over the entire print.

Frankly, I now mostly just use Print Shield on glossy work that is not displayed under glass, and I use no spray on matte paper, which I always display under glass or acrylic. I believe all of the sprays decrease matte dmax, though Lascaux probably does so less than Print Shield.

I might add that there are lots of other sprays, but I found the nozzles of the two products mentioned above were better than the others I tried. That is, I was able to get a more even spray out of them.

Paul
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 6:33 AM paulmwhiting@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Paul,

"For the glossy prints I dry mount them on acid free foam core and spray them with Premier Art Print Shield..."

If memory serves, I saw in some cases you use Lascaux Fixativ... is the choice of spray a matter of glossy vs matte paper? Perhaps the Lascaux is better for matte paper? I thought I read somewhere that the Premier Art spray weakened the DMax somewhat.

Paul W.

Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-27 by Myron Gochnauer

This may be anathema for our group, but:

Have any of you run across information concerning the archival qualities, or lack thereof, of hot lamination?

My sister recently gave me reproductions of paintings by a local artist. The prints were laminated, and looked surprisingly good. The laminating material was thicker than the stuff you normally see at stationery stores, and they were dead flat.

I’ve laminated a couple prints for children.  11x14, with a 1 inch transparent margin all around, and two grommets through the top corners to suspend the print by a thick cord. Hangs on a nail, bedpost, or whatever, and can withstand sticky little fingers. Also suitable for garages, workshops, and the like. :-)

The prints my sister gave me were a step up in thickness and general refinement, but I have no idea how they were produced.

Full lamination makes me nervous, since there’s no backing out, but it does have the advantage of sealing out a nasty environment.  I have no idea how most laminating films treat, and are treated by, UV light.

I have found it difficult to find technical information on laminating films. Can any of you help?

Myron

Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-28 by John Castronovo

Are you sure it was thermal lamination and not pressure sensitive adhesive 
(PSA) lamination? There are many types of each and not all include UV 
protection, some having more than others if they do have it. Some plastics 
and adhesives may not be entirely compatible with certain kinds of prints 
and inks too.

Generally speaking, sealing the surface to protect it from humidity and 
ozone is a very good thing. Just understand that whatever is used, unlike 
glazing, lamination actually becomes an integral part of the print so if 
anything happens to the laminate, the print is also ruined. For that reason, 
only the best methods and products should be used. I would prefer high end 
PSA over thermal. I don't like to generalize, but thermal laminates are 
typically designed for document protection, menus and things like that where 
low cost is the most important factor.

Some plastics will outgas, yellow and deteriorate becoming brittle over 
time, and some are much more stable to the point of being considered 
archival. The acidity of the adhesive also needs to be considered, and you 
need to stay away from cheap rubber based adhesives and use only laminates 
that use acrylic based adhesive.

I'm sure you didn't expect a simple answer, but the best one is, you get 
what you pay for.

jc
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message----- 
From: Myron Gochnauer goch@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 6:23 PM
To: digitalB&W group group
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no 
glass?

This may be anathema for our group, but:

Have any of you run across information concerning the archival qualities, or 
lack thereof, of hot lamination?

My sister recently gave me reproductions of paintings by a local artist. The 
prints were laminated, and looked surprisingly good. The laminating material 
was thicker than the stuff you normally see at stationery stores, and they 
were dead flat.

I\u2019ve laminated a couple prints for children.  11x14, with a 1 inch 
transparent margin all around, and two grommets through the top corners to 
suspend the print by a thick cord. Hangs on a nail, bedpost, or whatever, 
and can withstand sticky little fingers. Also suitable for garages, 
workshops, and the like. :-)

The prints my sister gave me were a step up in thickness and general 
refinement, but I have no idea how they were produced.

Full lamination makes me nervous, since there\u2019s no backing out, but it does 
have the advantage of sealing out a nasty environment.  I have no idea how 
most laminating films treat, and are treated by, UV light.

I have found it difficult to find technical information on laminating films. 
Can any of you help?

Myron





------------------------------------
Posted by: Myron Gochnauer <goch@...>
------------------------------------

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Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-29 by goch@...

I used "GBC HeatSeal" laminating pouches, 3 mil "ultra clear" (11.5" x 17.5"), and a GBC heat press (roller). I could not find any information on the company website about the actual material used. The art market is pretty clearly not the intended user, so the material may be problematic in the long run.

As you said, "... unlike glazing, lamination actually becomes an integral part of the print so if
anything happens to the laminate, the print is also ruined." Hence my concern.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
"Some plastics will outgas, yellow and deteriorate becoming brittle over
time, and some are much more stable to the point of being considered
archival. The acidity of the adhesive also needs to be considered, and you
need to stay away from cheap rubber based adhesives and use only laminates
that use acrylic based adhesive."
Do you know of a specific product or brand that would fit the description and hence be at least approximately archival?

Thanks!!

Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-29 by John Castronovo

There are so many plastics and different grades within each type, but in general you need to stay away from PVC or vinyl. 
http://www.gaylord.com/resources/understanding-plastics-for-preservation
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 12:50 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?




I used "GBC HeatSeal" laminating pouches, 3 mil "ultra clear" (11.5" x 17.5"), and a GBC heat press (roller). I could not find any information on the company website about the actual material used.  The art market is pretty clearly not the intended user, so the material may be problematic in the long run.


As you said, "... unlike glazing, lamination actually becomes an integral part of the print so if 
anything happens to the laminate, the print is also ruined."  Hence my concern. 
  "Some plastics will outgas, yellow and deteriorate becoming brittle over 
  time, and some are much more stable to the point of being considered 
  archival. The acidity of the adhesive also needs to be considered, and you 
  need to stay away from cheap rubber based adhesives and use only laminates 
  that use acrylic based adhesive."
Do you know of a specific product or brand that would fit the description and hence be at least approximately archival?

Thanks!!

Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-30 by Philip Lindsay

Thanks for the interesting article. II wonder the stability of the thick (1/4 inch or so) of acrylic plastic used for lamination of color photographs. I don't know if the material applied cold or hot. I am being to appreciate the potential dangers in lamination.
Thanks again
Phil Lindsay 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
      From: "'John Castronovo' jc@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:40 PM
 Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?
   
     There are so many plastics and different grades within each type, but in general you need to stay away from PVC or vinyl. http://www.gaylord.com/resources/understanding-plastics-for-preservation   From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 12:50 PMTo: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass? 

I used "GBC HeatSeal" laminating pouches, 3 mil "ultra clear" (11.5" x 17.5"), and a GBC heat press (roller).. I could not find any information on the company website about the actual material used.  The art market is pretty clearly not the intended user, so the material may be problematic in the long run.
As you said, "... unlike glazing, lamination actually becomes an integral part of the print so if 
anything happens to the laminate, the print is also ruined."  Hence my concern. 
 "Some plastics will outgas, yellow and deteriorate becoming brittle over  time, and some are much more stable to the point of being considered  archival. The acidity of the adhesive also needs to be considered, and you  need to stay away from cheap rubber based adhesives and use only laminates  that use acrylic based adhesive."
Do you know of a specific product or brand that would fit the description and hence be at least approximately archival? 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Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-30 by John Castronovo

The plastic can vary, but the acrylic doesn’t touch the photo because there’s a Mylar sheet coated with acrylic adhesive between them. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 11:48 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?




Thanks for the interesting article. II wonder the stability of the thick (1/4 inch or so) of acrylic plastic used for lamination of color photographs. I don't know if the material applied cold or hot. I am being to appreciate the potential dangers in lamination.


Thanks again


Phil Lindsay


 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "'John Castronovo' jc@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?


  

There are so many plastics and different grades within each type, but in general you need to stay away from PVC or vinyl. 
http://www.gaylord.com/resources/understanding-plastics-for-preservation



From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 12:50 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?




I used "GBC HeatSeal" laminating pouches, 3 mil "ultra clear" (11.5" x 17.5"), and a GBC heat press (roller)... I could not find any information on the company website about the actual material used.  The art market is pretty clearly not the intended user, so the material may be problematic in the long run.


As you said, "... unlike glazing, lamination actually becomes an integral part of the print so if 
anything happens to the laminate, the print is also ruined."  Hence my concern. 
  "Some plastics will outgas, yellow and deteriorate becoming brittle over 
  time, and some are much more stable to the point of being considered 
  archival. The acidity of the adhesive also needs to be considered, and you 
  need to stay away from cheap rubber based adhesives and use only laminates 
  that use acrylic based adhesive."
Do you know of a specific product or brand that would fit the description and hence be at least approximately archival?

Thanks!!

Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-30 by Philip Lindsay

Thanks for the info. Is the acrylic adhesive the potentially weak link of the system? Based upon the cost of thick acrylic mounting I would hope that the adhesive is stable but are there varying qualities that I should be aware of?
Thanks
Phil Lindsay
Show quoted textHide quoted text
      From: "'John Castronovo' jc@technicalphoto.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 7:16 AM
 Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?
   
    The plastic can vary, but the acrylic doesn’t touch the photo because there’s a Mylar sheet coated with acrylic adhesive between them.  From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 11:48 PMTo: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass? 

Thanks for the interesting article. II wonder the stability of the thick (1/4 inch or so) of acrylic plastic used for lamination of color photographs. I don't know if the material applied cold or hot. I am being to appreciate the potential dangers in lamination.
Thanks again
Phil Lindsay

 From: "'John Castronovo' jc@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?
    There are so many plastics and different grades within each type, but in general you need to stay away from PVC or vinyl. http://www.gaylord.com/resources/understanding-plastics-for-preservation   From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 12:50 PMTo: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass? 

I used "GBC HeatSeal" laminating pouches, 3 mil "ultra clear" (11.5" x 17.5"), and a GBC heat press (roller).... I could not find any information on the company website about the actual material used.  The art market is pretty clearly not the intended user, so the material may be problematic in the long run.
As you said, "... unlike glazing, lamination actually becomes an integral part of the print so if 
anything happens to the laminate, the print is also ruined."  Hence my concern. 
 "Some plastics will outgas, yellow and deteriorate becoming brittle over  time, and some are much more stable to the point of being considered  archival. The acidity of the adhesive also needs to be considered, and you  need to stay away from cheap rubber based adhesives and use only laminates  that use acrylic based adhesive."
Do you know of a specific product or brand that would fit the description and hence be at least approximately archival? Thanks!!

Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-30 by John Castronovo

The adhesive on the best products is very aggressive and not the weak link, but there are removable or repositionable versions for short term use. Once the good stuff is on the acrylic two strong man can pull it apart if they work fast, but it quickly cures and then it’s impossible to get it off. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 10:43 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?




Thanks for the info. Is the acrylic adhesive the potentially weak link of the system? Based upon the cost of thick acrylic mounting I would hope that the adhesive is stable but are there varying qualities that I should be aware of?

Thanks

Phil Lindsay




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "'John Castronovo' jc@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?


  
The plastic can vary, but the acrylic doesn’t touch the photo because there’s a Mylar sheet coated with acrylic adhesive between them. 

From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 11:48 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?




Thanks for the interesting article. II wonder the stability of the thick (1/4 inch or so) of acrylic plastic used for lamination of color photographs. I don't know if the material applied cold or hot. I am being to appreciate the potential dangers in lamination.


Thanks again


Phil Lindsay


 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "'John Castronovo' jc@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?


  

There are so many plastics and different grades within each type, but in general you need to stay away from PVC or vinyl. 
http://www.gaylord.com/resources/understanding-plastics-for-preservation



From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 12:50 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?




I used "GBC HeatSeal" laminating pouches, 3 mil "ultra clear" (11.5" x 17.5"), and a GBC heat press (roller)..... I could not find any information on the company website about the actual material used.  The art market is pretty clearly not the intended user, so the material may be problematic in the long run.


As you said, "... unlike glazing, lamination actually becomes an integral part of the print so if 
anything happens to the laminate, the print is also ruined."  Hence my concern. 
  "Some plastics will outgas, yellow and deteriorate becoming brittle over 
  time, and some are much more stable to the point of being considered 
  archival. The acidity of the adhesive also needs to be considered, and you 
  need to stay away from cheap rubber based adhesives and use only laminates 
  that use acrylic based adhesive."
Do you know of a specific product or brand that would fit the description and hence be at least approximately archival?

Thanks!!

Re: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?

2018-07-30 by John Castronovo

Maybe an anathema as far as esthetics go, but it works very well if done properly. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 7:04 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: the Red River online newsletter: glass or no glass?




There’s just no way around it: lamination involves plastic, and plastic is anathema to the silver gelatin print. I like your solution of grommets though.
-- 

Sent from my iPhone

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