Digital BW, The Print

Hi All,
Is there anyone using Quad inks that uses a densitometer to 
calibrate their system? If you do could you please let us know what 
model densitometer you might use? I am using a windows XP system and 
are considering the purchase of a X- rite densitometer. 
I think that it would be a acurate way to set up the monitor and to 
check the dot gain on my 3000.
Any comments?

Barry

> Hi All,
> Is there anyone using Quad inks that uses a densitometer to
> calibrate their system? If you do could you please let us know what
> model densitometer you might use? I am using a windows XP system and
> are considering the purchase of a X- rite densitometer.
> I think that it would be a acurate way to set up the monitor and to
> check the dot gain on my 3000.
> Any comments?
>
> Barry

Hi Barry,

I will only comment on the densitometer, and not on your proposed method of
calibration...which is a book unto it self.  I have an X-Rite 810, and I
highly recommend it.  You can get them rather reasonably priced (compared to
new) on eBay.

Regards,

Austin

Barry,

I use a densitometer to build curves for making digital 
negatives with peizo. While I don't have recomendations 
for densitometers I have done an excel spreadsheet that 
takes in densitometer readings from a printed step 
wedge, does the interpolation, and spits out values for 
a correction curve to linearize the steps. If anyone 
would like it to play with let me know.
I started an attempt to produce a curve for the VM inks 
on my 1200 and EAM last weekend, though I didnt have 
time to get far it looked promising. The approach is to 
straighten the steps with the RGB curve alone, then get 
the toning by adjusting the individual inks + and - so 
the density stays constant but the color changes. 
Someone in here mentioned doing exactly that this week 
with success.

A setup procedure for producing VM curves reliably with 
a minimum of iterations is the goal. If anyone else has 
time to work on this it would be great as my time is 
very limited.

Larry

> Hi All,
> Is there anyone using Quad inks that uses a densitometer to 
> calibrate their system? If you do could you please let us know what 
> model densitometer you might use? I am using a windows XP system and 
> are considering the purchase of a X- rite densitometer. 
> I think that it would be a acurate way to set up the monitor and to 
> check the dot gain on my 3000.
> Any comments?
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other 
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> - Include your full name with your message.
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> short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
> resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
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> 
>

Barry,

as others have suggested the XRite 810 is a reliable workhorse, and I did buy 
mine from eBay at a good price. However, I have found that the better way to 
go is the XRite Digital Swatchbook. It's a lot cheaper than a new 810 ( though 
a bit more than an eBay deal on a used one).

The big benefit is not in the price, however: Not only does the Swatchbook 
replicate all the functions of the 810 (via the included Colorshop software), but 
also calculates dot gain and acts as a spectrophotometer! The bonus on top of 
that is that your readings are automatically entered in palettes you can save 
and export (to Excel or wherever you like). Beats typing in values from the 810 
by hand. 

More info on: http://www.xrite.com/X-RiteGateway.asp
(and no, I am not associated with X-Rite! <s>)

These solutions do not address your monitor calibration needs, however. I 
use X-Rite's monitor calibrator for that  with Optical. There may be solutions 
that only use a single instrument for everything, but I have no direct 
experience, so cannot comment. 

Antonis



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "flyfishingusa2002" <tflyfish@c...> 
wrote:

> Hi All,
> Is there anyone using Quad inks that uses a densitometer to 
> calibrate their system? If you do could you please let us know what 
> model densitometer you might use? I am using a windows XP system and 
> are considering the purchase of a X- rite densitometer. 
> I think that it would be a acurate way to set up the monitor and to 
> check the dot gain on my 3000.
> Any comments?
> 
> Barry

Anyone interested in buying my X-Rite 810, please contact me off-list.

;-)

(that's a joke for the humor impaired)

> Barry,
>
> as others have suggested the XRite 810 is a reliable workhorse,
> and I did buy
> mine from eBay at a good price. However, I have found that the
> better way to
> go is the XRite Digital Swatchbook. It's a lot cheaper than a new
> 810 ( though
> a bit more than an eBay deal on a used one).
>
> The big benefit is not in the price, however: Not only does the
> Swatchbook
> replicate all the functions of the 810 (via the included
> Colorshop software), but
> also calculates dot gain and acts as a spectrophotometer! The
> bonus on top of
> that is that your readings are automatically entered in palettes
> you can save
> and export (to Excel or wherever you like). Beats typing in
> values from the 810
> by hand.
>
> More info on: http://www.xrite.com/X-RiteGateway.asp
> (and no, I am not associated with X-Rite! <s>)
>
> These solutions do not address your monitor calibration needs, however. I
> use X-Rite's monitor calibrator for that  with Optical. There may
> be solutions
> that only use a single instrument for everything, but I have no direct
> experience, so cannot comment.
>
> Antonis

No answer here, just a query. Why no use a scanner? I used the 
21 step wedge printout, scanned, and adjusted using transfer 
curves with marked improvement. The 65-85% range can be 
corrected.
Mark

Barry,

Of more use is a photospectrometer which will give you color information as
well as density. Tyler Boley did a trial run for me using Dan Culbertson's
RGB Softproof method of generating RGB separation curves for quad/hex inks.
The goal was to come up with a set of curves for standard MIS VM ink on
Photo Rag paper.

Look under SpectraTone Quads on the Lincoln Inks site:
http://www.lincolninks.com/ for Dan's method.

Tyler had me print wedges using all of the different paper choices in the
Epson driver that supported 1440dpi. This was done in a "No Color Control"
mode to reduce the amount of control the Epson driver has. Tyler checked the
wedges with his densitometer to find which had the best Dmax. Based on the
Dmax and the quality of the tone ramp he chose to use the Matte
Paper-Heavyweight setting.

Using these setting I printed out the test target for Tyler's SpectroStar
Spectrocam photospectrometer (say that fast ten times<G>). I mailed the
printed target to Tyler and he read it into his computer with the Spectrocam
and the values were used by ColorVision's Profiler Pro to generate a
monitor/ink/paper profile. This profile is not good enough to print with but
it does give you an excellent on screen view. With this on screen view you
can then apply RGB separation curves to a wedge file and see the results
without printing them out.

This got the curves in very good shape in a single iteration. Then from a
couple of printouts of wedges Tyler was able to dial the curves in.

While this method does not automate curve building which still needs to be
done manually, it does speed up the process. You also wind up with a monitor
profile for that ink and paper combination. The result is true WYSIWYG gray
ink printing where you actually see the color of the ink and of the paper
base on screen. This drastically speeds up the process of getting a good
print.

Once it is set up I haven't seen anything to beat if for B&W photo printing.

In comparing wedges for my 1280 running under Windows 2000 I think the
smoothest are from the Piezo driver, Tyler's 08 curve and Paul's vmp8-mw16
with very little difference, if any in quality. Tyler's mw02 and Paul's
vmp8-nc16 are almost as good.

I don't think that we are paying enough attention to color management with
the grayscale inks. You should calibrate your scanner, your monitor and
match your monitor view to your prints. The loop should be closed from start
to finish. This is not a requirement and you can still make excellent prints
without this kind of management but I think you are missing some of the
advantages digital printing has to offer.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----

From: "flyfishingusa2002" <tflyfish@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:52 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Calibrating System?


> Hi All,
> Is there anyone using Quad inks that uses a densitometer to
> calibrate their system? If you do could you please let us know what
> model densitometer you might use? I am using a windows XP system and
> are considering the purchase of a X- rite densitometer.
> I think that it would be a acurate way to set up the monitor and to
> check the dot gain on my 3000.
> Any comments?
>
> Barry
>

> Barry,
> 


Big huge snip...


> Once it is set up I haven't seen anything to beat if for B&W 
> photo printing.
> 
> In comparing wedges for my 1280 running under Windows 2000 I 
> think the smoothest are from the Piezo driver, Tyler's 08 
> curve and Paul's vmp8-mw16 with very little difference, if 
> any in quality. Tyler's mw02 and Paul's vmp8-nc16 are almost as good.
> 

I gotta try this when I get my new dedicated B&W printer...

Lawrence

Martin and others,
Many thanks for the very useful information on the above subject. 
All of the replies contain the kind of information that I was 
looking for. 
I have just purchased a densitometer via Ebay. I am new to process 
printing terms, but I hope to learn more. 
I am really trying to get consistant results with my Piezo printing, 
my step wedges look good (with the MIS FS Neutral inks) the 
desitometer will tell me if the steps are really 10% apart on the 
paper that I am using...

Thanks again,

Barry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Barry,
> 
> Of more use is a photospectrometer which will give you color 
information as
> well as density. Tyler Boley did a trial run for me using Dan 
Culbertson's
> RGB Softproof method of generating RGB separation curves for 
quad/hex inks.
> The goal was to come up with a set of curves for standard MIS VM 
ink on
> Photo Rag paper.
> 
> Look under SpectraTone Quads on the Lincoln Inks site:
> http://www.lincolninks.com/ for Dan's method.
> 
> Tyler had me print wedges using all of the different paper choices 
in the
> Epson driver that supported 1440dpi. This was done in a "No Color 
Control"
> mode to reduce the amount of control the Epson driver has. Tyler 
checked the
> wedges with his densitometer to find which had the best Dmax. 
Based on the
> Dmax and the quality of the tone ramp he chose to use the Matte
> Paper-Heavyweight setting.
> 
> Using these setting I printed out the test target for Tyler's 
SpectroStar
> Spectrocam photospectrometer (say that fast ten times<G>). I 
mailed the
> printed target to Tyler and he read it into his computer with the 
Spectrocam
> and the values were used by ColorVision's Profiler Pro to generate 
a
> monitor/ink/paper profile. This profile is not good enough to 
print with but
> it does give you an excellent on screen view. With this on screen 
view you
> can then apply RGB separation curves to a wedge file and see the 
results
> without printing them out.
> 
> This got the curves in very good shape in a single iteration. Then 
from a
> couple of printouts of wedges Tyler was able to dial the curves in.
> 
> While this method does not automate curve building which still 
needs to be
> done manually, it does speed up the process. You also wind up with 
a monitor
> profile for that ink and paper combination. The result is true 
WYSIWYG gray
> ink printing where you actually see the color of the ink and of 
the paper
> base on screen. This drastically speeds up the process of getting 
a good
> print.
> 
> Once it is set up I haven't seen anything to beat if for B&W photo 
printing.
> 
> In comparing wedges for my 1280 running under Windows 2000 I think 
the
> smoothest are from the Piezo driver, Tyler's 08 curve and Paul's 
vmp8-mw16
> with very little difference, if any in quality. Tyler's mw02 and 
Paul's
> vmp8-nc16 are almost as good.
> 
> I don't think that we are paying enough attention to color 
management with
> the grayscale inks. You should calibrate your scanner, your 
monitor and
> match your monitor view to your prints. The loop should be closed 
from start
> to finish. This is not a requirement and you can still make 
excellent prints
> without this kind of management but I think you are missing some 
of the
> advantages digital printing has to offer.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "flyfishingusa2002" <tflyfish@c...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:52 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Calibrating System?
> 
> 
> > Hi All,
> > Is there anyone using Quad inks that uses a densitometer to
> > calibrate their system? If you do could you please let us know 
what
> > model densitometer you might use? I am using a windows XP system 
and
> > are considering the purchase of a X- rite densitometer.
> > I think that it would be a acurate way to set up the monitor and 
to

> > check the dot gain on my 3000.
> > Any comments?
> >
> > Barry
> >

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
 
> In comparing wedges for my 1280 running under Windows 2000 I think 
the
> smoothest are from the Piezo driver, Tyler's 08 curve and Paul's 
vmp8-mw16
> with very little difference, if any in quality. Tyler's mw02 and 
Paul's
> vmp8-nc16 are almost as good.

Martin,

Where can we get the "...16" set of curves? The latest set in the 
files is the "...13" set. Would it be possible to post the newer ones?

Thanks

Tom Keesling

----- Original Message -----
From: "inteldes" <tom.keesling@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Calibrating System?


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
>
(snip)
>
> Where can we get the "...16" set of curves? The latest set in the
> files is the "...13" set. Would it be possible to post the newer ones?
>
Tom,

You can find Tyler Boley's VM curves for the 1280 in a Windows environment
in a zip file in the Files section of the groups homepage at:

Files > Inksets, reviews and techniques > MIS Variable Mix > 1280 PC MIS VM

Let me know what you think.

Martin
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>...
> Where can we get the "...16" set of curves? The latest set in the
> files is the "...13" set. Would it be possible to post the newer ones?
>

The MIS website has them for the 1280-PC.  These include the mw and nc
versions only.  See

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/workflow_roark.html


Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >...
> > Where can we get the "...16" set of curves? The latest set in the
> > files is the "...13" set. Would it be possible to post the newer 
ones?
> >
> 
> The MIS website has them for the 1280-PC.  

Thanks, Paul. Got them this morning. I guess I need to check there 
once in a while to find the current ones.

Tom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "inteldes" <tom.keesling@a...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 9:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Calibrating System?
> 
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >
> (snip)
> >
> > Where can we get the "...16" set of curves? The latest set in the
> > files is the "...13" set. Would it be possible to post the newer 
ones?
> >
> Tom,
> 
> You can find Tyler Boley's VM curves for the 1280 in a Windows 
environment
> in a zip file in the Files section of the groups homepage at:
> 
> Files > Inksets, reviews and techniques > MIS Variable Mix > 1280 
PC MIS VM
> 
> Let me know what you think.
> 
> Martin

Thanks, Martin. We're apparently talking about two different sets of 
curves, and Paul has directed me to the location of the curves I was 
asking about.

Separately, I had already downloaded Tyler's curves and have 
experimented with CRV08 on Photo Rag this past week. I still consider 
myself a novice, but it is producing amazing results on this paper. I 
want to try it on Museo and ESFA, too, to see how it does.

Now I need to go back and try the updated curves from Paul!

Tom