Digital BW, The Print

pgmartinfr [pgmartin_fr@...] wrote:

>Is somebody using an Epson 1290 with FS (Fullspectrum) ink from MIS
>Associates ?
>I'm currently working on a workflow for this printer/ink but I have
>some problem for gray around 75-80% ...
>Any suggestion ?

The FS inks are like Piezo inks and, in hextone machines, will work only
with Cone Editions PiezographyBW software -- UNLESS the ink positions are
altered.
Unlike the quad (4-ink) FS/Piezo systems, there is no way to control the
Epson driver from Photoshop to distribute the inks correctly with the inks
in the positions that Piezo uses (and that any current pre-loaded carts
use).

The "problem" with the hextone Piezo system is that the light ink positions
are not light ink.  They are the same density as the full-strength inks.
Thus, as the input value calls for darker inks, the Epson driver substitutes
the full strength ink for the "light" ink.  However, with ink densities that
are, in fact, the same, you end up with a flat stop.  There is probably no
way around this problem with the Epson driver and the standard Piezo/FS ink
positions.

If you want to use FS inks with a hextone machine, you have three choices.
First, buy a Piezo driver.  Second, buy a ColorByte ImagePrint 4 RIP (check
with that company first).  Third, change the ink positions and (maybe) write
some simple curves.  (Since I do not have a hextone machine, I have not been
able to test this and have not been able to write the curves -- which may
not even be necessary.)

Here is the alternative FS-Hextone-Epson-driver ink positions I recommend.
It is based on the following observations.  First, the light inks tend to be
about 60% of the density of the full strength inks.  Happily, the FS/Piezo
magenta is almost exactly 60% the density of the cyan ink.  Second, the
current Piezo/FS ink mix is actually too light, being designed for the old
quad machines.  As such, radical curves are needed to control it.  These
curves leave artifacts and destroy grayscale.  Thus, a darker ink mix should
be better.

So, the alternative FS ink mix for the Epson driver is as follows:

Black -- Use the MIS FS (or VM) black;

Cyan position -- Use FS cyan-position ink;

Light cyan position -- Use FS magenta-position ink;

Magenta position -- Use FS cyan-position ink;

Light magenta -- Use FS magenta-position ink;

Yellow -- Use FS yellow-position ink.  (The FS magenta-position ink may work
here also.  I'd test both of them.)

This proposed FS-Epson-Driver inkset can probably be controlled either by
mild partitioning inks or just a simple grayscale workflow.  It might print
rather well with no workflow at all.

I think there is a very good chance that the FS inks in the above positions
in a 1280 or 1290 will produce the best B&W print possible, beating all
current workflows -- Piezo software included.  I hope someone will give it a
try and let us know how it works.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Could you please explain(for us hextone neophytes)how you came up 
with your ink ditribution, and why you didn't mention "the 2 photo 
shades" as they are listed on the MIS site, or what they are. I have 
been reading this site, using the original hextones on my 1200, 
gaining alot of info and becoming confused, all at the same time. 
Seeing your posts, and reading everyones comments keeps my interest 
up. I feel I have learned a great deal about inks, papers, and 
printing in general thanks to this forum. Keep up the great work.
Thanks!
Keith Randolph   
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Here is the alternative FS-Hextone-Epson-driver ink positions I 
recommend.
> It is based on the following observations.  First, the light inks 
tend to be
> about 60% of the density of the full strength inks.  Happily, the 
FS/Piezo
> magenta is almost exactly 60% the density of the cyan ink.  Second, 
the
> current Piezo/FS ink mix is actually too light, being designed for 
the old
> quad machines.  As such, radical curves are needed to control it.  
These
> curves leave artifacts and destroy grayscale.  Thus, a darker ink 
mix should
> be better.
> 
> So, the alternative FS ink mix for the Epson driver is as follows:
> 
> Black -- Use the MIS FS (or VM) black;
> 
> Cyan position -- Use FS cyan-position ink;
> 
> Light cyan position -- Use FS magenta-position ink;
> 
> Magenta position -- Use FS cyan-position ink;
> 
> Light magenta -- Use FS magenta-position ink;
> 
> Yellow -- Use FS yellow-position ink.  (The FS magenta-position ink 
may work
> here also.  I'd test both of them.)
> 
> This proposed FS-Epson-Driver inkset can probably be controlled 
either by
> mild partitioning inks or just a simple grayscale workflow.  It 
might print
> rather well with no workflow at all.
> 
> I think there is a very good chance that the FS inks in the above 
positions
> in a 1280 or 1290 will produce the best B&W print possible, beating 
all
> current workflows -- Piezo software included.  I hope someone will 
give it a

> try and let us know how it works.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

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Paul and all involved with the topic, you can refer to it in our files in the future. 
It is a question that comes up often.

Antonis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:

> Unlike the quad (4-ink) FS/Piezo systems, there is no way to control the
> Epson driver from Photoshop to distribute the inks correctly with the inks
> in the positions that Piezo uses (and that any current pre-loaded carts
> use).

Paul and Others,

I have tried, and have now been using the FS-N inks loaded as you 
outlined below, using the epson driver for a few weeks. They produce 
the best b/w prints I have ever made. I used a non partitioned RGB 
curve, which I have e-mailed to Martin Wesley. If appropriate, he may 
want to post the curve. I use the 1280.

Shilesh Jani

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "kjrslr" <kjrslr@e...> 
wrote:
> Could you please explain(for us hextone neophytes)how you came up 
> with your ink ditribution, and why you didn't mention "the 2 photo 
> shades" as they are listed on the MIS site, or what they are. I 
have 
> been reading this site, using the original hextones on my 1200, 
> gaining alot of info and becoming confused, all at the same time. 
> Seeing your posts, and reading everyones comments keeps my interest 
> up. I feel I have learned a great deal about inks, papers, and 
> printing in general thanks to this forum. Keep up the great work.
> Thanks!
> Keith Randolph   
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Here is the alternative FS-Hextone-Epson-driver ink positions I 
> recommend.
> > It is based on the following observations.  First, the light inks 
> tend to be
> > about 60% of the density of the full strength inks.  Happily, the 
> FS/Piezo
> > magenta is almost exactly 60% the density of the cyan ink.  
Second, 
> the
> > current Piezo/FS ink mix is actually too light, being designed 
for 
> the old
> > quad machines.  As such, radical curves are needed to control 
it.  
> These
> > curves leave artifacts and destroy grayscale.  Thus, a darker ink 
> mix should
> > be better.
> > 
> > So, the alternative FS ink mix for the Epson driver is as follows:
> > 
> > Black -- Use the MIS FS (or VM) black;
> > 
> > Cyan position -- Use FS cyan-position ink;
> > 
> > Light cyan position -- Use FS magenta-position ink;
> > 
> > Magenta position -- Use FS cyan-position ink;
> > 
> > Light magenta -- Use FS magenta-position ink;
> > 
> > Yellow -- Use FS yellow-position ink.  (The FS magenta-position 
ink 
> may work
> > here also.  I'd test both of them.)
> > 
> > This proposed FS-Epson-Driver inkset can probably be controlled 
> either by
> > mild partitioning inks or just a simple grayscale workflow.  It 
> might print
> > rather well with no workflow at all.
> > 
> > I think there is a very good chance that the FS inks in the above 
> positions
> > in a 1280 or 1290 will produce the best B&W print possible, 
beating 
> all
> > current workflows -- Piezo software included.  I hope someone 
will 

> give it a
> > try and let us know how it works.
> > 
> > Paul
> > http://www.PaulRoark.com

It would seem the workflows for 1280 printers (I'm thinking of Paul's and
Tyler's curves for VM inks) are more evolved than what's available for 1270
printers. Naturally, I have a 1270, not a 1280. I'm wondering if anyone has
tried Paul's or Tyler's 1280 curves on a 1270?

Todd

JMWoo [mailto:wooismyid@...] wrote:

>...the only
>way to get into Piezography BW with the 1280 is the
>purchase their $850 Epson 1280 Continuous Ink Kit. Is
>this true?
>...
>Surely there must be a cheaper way ...

Note that there is a way to use the MIS FS inks with the hextone printers
like the 1280 and get excellent results.  You do need to load your own
carts, however, or set up a CIS.  Note the following message, which includes
my earlier post.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

_________________

 -----Original Message-----
From: janishilesh [mailto:shilesh.jani@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 4:08 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 1290 with MIS Fullspectrum ink -- Hextone FS
formula


  Paul and Others,

  I have tried, and have now been using the FS-N inks loaded as you
  outlined below, using the epson driver for a few weeks. They produce
  the best b/w prints I have ever made. I used a non partitioned RGB
  curve, which I have e-mailed to Martin Wesley. If appropriate, he may
  want to post the curve. I use the 1280.

  Shilesh Jani

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "kjrslr" <kjrslr@e...>
  wrote:
  > Could you please explain(for us hextone neophytes)how you came up
  > with your ink ditribution, and why you didn't mention "the 2 photo
  > shades" as they are listed on the MIS site, or what they are. I
  have
  > been reading this site, using the original hextones on my 1200,
  > gaining alot of info and becoming confused, all at the same time.
  > Seeing your posts, and reading everyones comments keeps my interest
  > up. I feel I have learned a great deal about inks, papers, and
  > printing in general thanks to this forum. Keep up the great work.
  > Thanks!
  > Keith Randolph
  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark
  > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
  > > Here is the alternative FS-Hextone-Epson-driver ink positions I
  > recommend.
  > > It is based on the following observations.  First, the light inks
  > tend to be
  > > about 60% of the density of the full strength inks.  Happily, the
  > FS/Piezo
  > > magenta is almost exactly 60% the density of the cyan ink.
  Second,
  > the
  > > current Piezo/FS ink mix is actually too light, being designed
  for
  > the old
  > > quad machines.  As such, radical curves are needed to control
  it.
  > These
  > > curves leave artifacts and destroy grayscale.  Thus, a darker ink
  > mix should
  > > be better.
  > >
  > > So, the alternative FS ink mix for the Epson driver is as follows:
  > >
  > > Black -- Use the MIS FS (or VM) black;
  > >
  > > Cyan position -- Use FS cyan-position ink;
  > >
  > > Light cyan position -- Use FS magenta-position ink;
  > >
  > > Magenta position -- Use FS cyan-position ink;
  > >
  > > Light magenta -- Use FS magenta-position ink;
  > >
  > > Yellow -- Use FS yellow-position ink.  (The FS magenta-position
  ink
  > may work
  > > here also.  I'd test both of them.)
  > >
  > > This proposed FS-Epson-Driver inkset can probably be controlled
  > either by
  > > mild partitioning inks or just a simple grayscale workflow.  It
  > might print
  > > rather well with no workflow at all.
  > >
  > > I think there is a very good chance that the FS inks in the above
  > positions
  > > in a 1280 or 1290 will produce the best B&W print possible,
  beating
  > all
  > > current workflows -- Piezo software included.  I hope someone
  will
  > give it a
  > > try and let us know how it works.
  > >
  > > Paul
  > > http://www.PaulRoark.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a dual printer setup, one uses MIS VM and the
other MIS FS with the Piezo driver.

Yesterday, I accidentally printed to the VM inkset
using the Piezo driver.

I then printed the picture correctly using the FS
inskset.

Everyone I showed the prints to liked the VM print
better.

I guess it's art afer all...

Jim Norris

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