Digital BW, The Print

Please, explain someting to me. What is the fascination with cool 
tone prints? 

Years ago everyone was raving about Seagull Oriental, I tried it and 
hated it. Too cold, too purple, too, well ugh!

I look at the cool prints that the MIS VM inks produce and to my eye 
they are way too blue.

OK, so maybe I am color blind....maybe I am just plain contrary. I 
just don't get it. Platinum prints are warm, paladium prints are 
warm, and I love them. I find MIS FS inks on Hahnemuhle William 
Turner to be exquisite. Just a bit on the warm side of neutral, but 
oh was a feeling!

So I figure that perhaps I am seeing someting differently. So this 
weekend I make three prints. A MIS-VM cool, and MIS-FS, and a MIS-FS 
Neutral. I show these to 5 different people (not very scientific I 
know). Each and everyone picked the MIS-FS print as their favorite.

So what is the fascination with cool tone prints?

Mike

Yeah...I'm with you on this one.  I don't see what people like in the cool
tone prints either...however, the ability to do a neutral print is
desirable.  I just ordered the FS-neutral inks today for my other
1160...while I'm not sure I will like the tone of a FS-neutral print as well
as my PiezoBW prints...I like the idea that they stay were you print
them...and don't warm as they fade...oh...and the price was nice, too.

Robert

On 4/8/02 6:43 PM, "mkravit" <michael.kravit@...> wrote:

> Please, explain someting to me. What is the fascination with cool
> tone prints? 
> 
> Years ago everyone was raving about Seagull Oriental, I tried it and
> hated it. Too cold, too purple, too, well ugh!
> 
> I look at the cool prints that the MIS VM inks produce and to my eye
> they are way too blue.
> 
> OK, so maybe I am color blind....maybe I am just plain contrary. I
> just don't get it. Platinum prints are warm, paladium prints are
> warm, and I love them. I find MIS FS inks on Hahnemuhle William
> Turner to be exquisite. Just a bit on the warm side of neutral, but
> oh was a feeling!
> 
> So I figure that perhaps I am seeing someting differently. So this
> weekend I make three prints. A MIS-VM cool, and MIS-FS, and a MIS-FS
> Neutral. I show these to 5 different people (not very scientific I
> know). Each and everyone picked the MIS-FS print as their favorite.
> 
> So what is the fascination with cool tone prints?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Hey Mike, something besides scanning DPI! Yippee!  LOL

So, the key words in your post were "platinum," "palladium," and "warm,"
"warm," and  "warm."

Whether consciously or not, I think we all try to re-create something we
know and therefor trust (our judgement on) before going on to completely
uncharted waters.  People who printed cool papers with selenium toners are
matching their prints to what they know;  did your preference for warm tones
predate your work with platinum, or was it informed by it?

Then, of course there's this:  You say tomato, they say tomatoe.

I'm with you on this one, (almost) all the way...

Bill

on 4/8/02 9:43 PM, mkravit wrote:

Please, explain someting to me. What is the fascination with cool
tone prints? 

Years ago everyone was raving about Seagull Oriental, I tried it and
hated it. Too cold, too purple, too, well ugh!

I look at the cool prints that the MIS VM inks produce and to my eye
they are way too blue.

OK, so maybe I am color blind....maybe I am just plain contrary. I
just don't get it. Platinum prints are warm, paladium prints are
warm, and I love them. I find MIS FS inks on Hahnemuhle William
Turner to be exquisite. Just a bit on the warm side of neutral, but
oh was a feeling!

So I figure that perhaps I am seeing someting differently. So this
weekend I make three prints. A MIS-VM cool, and MIS-FS, and a MIS-FS
Neutral. I show these to 5 different people (not very scientific I
know). Each and everyone picked the MIS-FS print as their favorite.

So what is the fascination with cool tone prints?

Mike


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

From: "mkravit" <michael.kravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 2:43 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Fascination will cooltone prints

> OK, so maybe I am color blind....

Be careful there oh mighty Kravit.M, there are many individuals with flawed
colour judgement and they do not know that they are.

Anyone working with images should really have an eye test in order to be
sure they know what's-what, as against what's imagined, and that would
certainly include many on here - but not me of course.

Mike kravit wrote:

> Please, explain someting to me. What is the fascination with cool 
> tone prints? ...
> 
> So this  weekend I make three prints... I show these to 5 different
> people (not very scientific I know). Each and everyone picked
> the MIS-FS print as their favorite.

Actually, 5 is scientific.

Richard Wolfson

Mike, it's gotta be different strokes for different folks.  I LOVED the
oriental seagull paper. I love cold tones. Don't like warm tones at all.
The neutral prints fade to warm, but the cold tone prints, if they fade
at all, fade to neutral.

I too made many many MANY prints of everything from Paul's warm curve to
the Cold curve. Every person I showed them to preferred the cool tone
print, THe cold was too blue, (You can actually see it's blue, not just
cold), the neutral is just a hair too warm, and the warm curves WAY too
warm. 

I guess photographers as a rule just don't like warm tone prints, at
least here in COLD North Dakota.

However, I did notice when I had 20 images up in a gallery that were
half warm and half cold, (The Gallery owner suggested there should be a
choice), that they sold about equally well. :).

I have never seen a palladium print, but I've seen many platinum prints
and hated them. WAY too gray and muddy, no snap at all, and too warm also.

Jerry

mkravit wrote:

> 
> Please, explain someting to me. What is the fascination with cool
> tone prints?
> 
> Years ago everyone was raving about Seagull Oriental, I tried it and
> hated it. Too cold, too purple, too, well ugh!
> 
> I look at the cool prints that the MIS VM inks produce and to my eye
> they are way too blue.

I think Bill hit the nail right on the head. It's what people are 
used to. If they've been using or seeing selenium prints they want 
the cool and if they've use to paladium they prefer warm. We see a 
similar issue with the color red -Westerners prefer a "bluer" red 
whereas Asians like a red we would consider way too orange.  

 Maybe it has something to do with how they spell "grey" or is 
it "gray"?  ;-) 

Jeff

> So what is the fascination with cool tone prints?
> 
> Mike

My deal with cool tone prints is that they remind me
too much of a badly profiled b&w print made with OEM
inks.  ie. with a 12xx after Epson reformulated their
inks.  I see it more as a colorcast.

I settled on a tone that most closely matched my
silver gelatin darkroom prints..  medium warm(Tyler's
crv08 on PR).  Warmer toned prints remind me of older
photographs, which isn't all bad.

OTH, I seem to get better contrast in my prints w/ the
cool and neutral curves.  

  Daniel P\ufffdrez
  -Dallas


--- mkravit <michael.kravit@...> wrote:
> Please, explain someting to me. What is the
> fascination with cool 
> tone prints? 
> 
> Years ago everyone was raving about Seagull
> Oriental, I tried it and 
> hated it. Too cold, too purple, too, well ugh!
> 
> I look at the cool prints that the MIS VM inks
> produce and to my eye 
> they are way too blue.
> 
> OK, so maybe I am color blind....maybe I am just
> plain contrary. I 
> just don't get it. Platinum prints are warm,
> paladium prints are 
> warm, and I love them. I find MIS FS inks on
> Hahnemuhle William 
> Turner to be exquisite. Just a bit on the warm side
> of neutral, but 
> oh was a feeling!
> 
> So I figure that perhaps I am seeing someting
> differently. So this 
> weekend I make three prints. A MIS-VM cool, and
> MIS-FS, and a MIS-FS 
> Neutral. I show these to 5 different people (not
> very scientific I 
> know). Each and everyone picked the MIS-FS print as
> their favorite.
> 
> So what is the fascination with cool tone prints?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are
> often being updated. The page is at:
> 
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have
> one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to
> change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message
> archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Ok, there are three kinds of people in the world...

1.
Photographers that like warm tone prints (all of their friends also like
warm tone prints or are too afraid to say they like the cool tones around a
photographer who likes warm tone prints).

2.
Photographers that like cool tone prints (all of their friends also like
cool tone prints or are too afraid to say they like the warm tones around a
photographer who likes cool tone prints).

3.
People who don't look at photos or think they are something you get at the
24hr processor at the corner drug store...and who believe that warm and cool
are words reserved for the weather or the temperature of their coffee and
who if they read this like would deem us incredible geeks.

Robert

PS  There might be something to the North Dakota thing...movies that are
made in the far north have a very different character of light...certainly
cool to my eye.  Funny, I like it in Cinema (e.g., The Sweet
Hereafter)...but not in BW prints...alas...I'm off to the
ophthalmologist...and then to the psychiatrist!



On 4/9/02 8:18 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Mike, it's gotta be different strokes for different folks.  I LOVED the
> oriental seagull paper. I love cold tones. Don't like warm tones at all.
> The neutral prints fade to warm, but the cold tone prints, if they fade
> at all, fade to neutral.
> 
> I too made many many MANY prints of everything from Paul's warm curve to
> the Cold curve. Every person I showed them to preferred the cool tone
> print, THe cold was too blue, (You can actually see it's blue, not just
> cold), the neutral is just a hair too warm, and the warm curves WAY too
> warm. 
> 
> I guess photographers as a rule just don't like warm tone prints, at
> least here in COLD North Dakota.
> 
> However, I did notice when I had 20 images up in a gallery that were
> half warm and half cold, (The Gallery owner suggested there should be a
> choice), that they sold about equally well. :).
> 
> I have never seen a palladium print, but I've seen many platinum prints
> and hated them. WAY too gray and muddy, no snap at all, and too warm also.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> mkravit wrote:
>> 
>> Please, explain someting to me. What is the fascination with cool
>> tone prints?
>> 
>> Years ago everyone was raving about Seagull Oriental, I tried it and
>> hated it. Too cold, too purple, too, well ugh!
>> 
>> I look at the cool prints that the MIS VM inks produce and to my eye
>> they are way too blue.
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

I couldn't print all cool or all warm. Seems to me that subject 
matter and intent dictate the choice. An image of machines with a 
suggestion of the impersonal, a lack of human warmth, would probably 
be best printed as a cooltone. An autumn landscape -- leaves, logs, 
and all, with a hint of the nostalgic -- might look best as a 
warmtone. Both would print well as "neutrals".

Chris Hargens


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "iwasnvrhere" 
<iwasnvrhere@y...> wrote:
>    I think Bill hit the nail right on the head. It's what people 
are 

> used to. If they've been using or seeing selenium prints they want 
> the cool and if they've use to paladium they prefer warm. We see a 
> similar issue with the color red -Westerners prefer a "bluer" red 
> whereas Asians like a red we would consider way too orange.  
> 
>  Maybe it has something to do with how they spell "grey" or is 
> it "gray"?  ;-) 
> 
> Jeff
> 
> > So what is the fascination with cool tone prints?
> > 
> > Mike

Do you mean like "Fargo"?

Mike

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> PS  There might be something to the North Dakota thing...movies 
that are
> made in the far north have a very different character of 
light...certainly

> cool to my eye.  Funny, I like it in Cinema (e.g., The Sweet
> Hereafter)...but not in BW prints...alas...I'm off to the
> ophthalmologist...and then to the psychiatrist!

Exactly, The Cohen brothers use the color of light very prominently.  Fargo
was a cool film, while "Brother Where Art Thou" was a warm film for the deep
south.  Actually they digitally manipulated the color tone in "Brother"...to
get the warm tone that they wanted to fit the film.  Atom Egoyan, a Canadian
who did "The Sweet Hereafter" and "Exotica" is another one who uses the tone
of the film to his advantage.  I recently saw a 70mm film...can't remember
its title...it was shot over the course of a full year in a northern
Norwegian lake town...the change in the tone of light was captivating from
summer to winter...but it was always cool to my eye...that far north.  There
is another northern film coming out at least in LA and NYC..."Fast Runner",
I believe is the title, it's an Inuit film that was filmed entirely on
location in the north...the trailer that I saw several weeks ago was
incredibly beautiful and really cool in tone....  In contrast, "Monsoon
Wedding", the Indian film that we went to see that night was incredibly warm
in tone...once again with sweltering heat to go with it...so in color work
in film there seems to be a North/South color tone tradition.

Robert



On 4/9/02 10:55 AM, "mkravit" <michael.kravit@...> wrote:

> Do you mean like "Fargo"?
> 
> Mike
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>> PS  There might be something to the North Dakota thing...movies
> that are
>> made in the far north have a very different character of
> light...certainly
>> cool to my eye.  Funny, I like it in Cinema (e.g., The Sweet
>> Hereafter)...but not in BW prints...alas...I'm off to the
>> ophthalmologist...and then to the psychiatrist!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

So the fasination lies in being able to emote an image with the 
tone? Perhaps a another scientific study is in order :)

Jeff

The DVD for O Brother has a neat short where they explain how the whole 
film was shot neutral, and then scanned and manipulated frame by frame 
for color balance and tone.

This is how they do things like fade from B&W to color and mix sepia and 
B&W in the same shot and so on.

Pete

On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 02:33  PM, Robert Morrison wrote:

> Exactly, The Cohen brothers use the color of light very prominently.  
> Fargo
> was a cool film, while "Brother Where Art Thou" was a warm film for the 
> deep
> south.  Actually they digitally manipulated the color tone in 
> "Brother"...to
> get the warm tone that they wanted to fit the film.

Robert,

There is also another category of photographer - those who film and print in
full, glorious COLOR (horror, oh horror!). They often look at these pale
red, pale blue, or pale yellow prints that so-called BLACK&WHITE
photographers produce, and think 'Why do they persist in using such
old-fashioned methods of making prints coloured?'.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>


> Ok, there are three kinds of people in the world...
>
> 1.
> Photographers that like warm tone prints (all of their friends also like
> warm tone prints or are too afraid to say they like the cool tones around
a
> photographer who likes warm tone prints).
>
> 2.
> Photographers that like cool tone prints (all of their friends also like
> cool tone prints or are too afraid to say they like the warm tones around
a
> photographer who likes cool tone prints).
>
> 3.
> People who don't look at photos or think they are something you get at the
> 24hr processor at the corner drug store...and who believe that warm and
cool
> are words reserved for the weather or the temperature of their coffee and
> who if they read this like would deem us incredible geeks.

Well, I had to jump it here-
IMO, it's not about colour, or warm or cool, or whatever;  it's about
abstraction, our images are not reality, they are a (more or less)
abstraction of reality.  B&W appeals because the various tones and textures
become a means to this abstraction.

Of course it is possible to achieve abstraction in "full, glorious COLOR";
however, it's also much easier to be seduced into believing the colors.

If you want real, full, glorious color, why not hug a tree?

Bill

on 4/11/02 3:12 PM, Bob Frost wrote:

Robert,

There is also another category of photographer - those who film and print in
full, glorious COLOR (horror, oh horror!). They often look at these pale
red, pale blue, or pale yellow prints that so-called BLACK&WHITE
photographers produce, and think 'Why do they persist in using such
old-fashioned methods of making prints coloured?'.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>


> Ok, there are three kinds of people in the world...
>
> 1.
> Photographers that like warm tone prints (all of their friends also like
> warm tone prints or are too afraid to say they like the cool tones around
a
> photographer who likes warm tone prints).
>
> 2.
> Photographers that like cool tone prints (all of their friends also like
> cool tone prints or are too afraid to say they like the warm tones around
a
> photographer who likes cool tone prints).
>
> 3.
> People who don't look at photos or think they are something you get at the
> 24hr processor at the corner drug store...and who believe that warm and
cool
> are words reserved for the weather or the temperature of their coffee and
> who if they read this like would deem us incredible geeks.



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]