Digital BW, The Print

Chris,

You wrote:

>Looking through the MIS Web site, I'm having a hard time getting a
>clear idea of how long I can reasonably expect prints made with their
>quadtone and variable quadtone inksets to last before noticeable
>fading occurs. Is there good info on this yet -- any real competitors
>for B&W.

MIS has posted their RIT test results.  The MIS Archival Color inkset was
rated for a display life of at least "50 years."  (I really don't know how
good these estimates are, but for comparison purposes, they have some value.
It's better than nothing.)

The RIT test of the MIS Archival Color was limited by the yellow pigment.
Generations, with it's new yellow pigment (the other colors appear to be the
same pigments) is now up to "75 years." (MIS will also sell this new yellow,
but it changes the color and won't work with the old profiles.)

Because the variable-tone inkset is based mostly on the MIS black, and uses
only very small amounts of the cyan and magenta in the toner, it should be
rated at much longer than this.

The variable-tone black is similar to the Piezo black and different than the
MIS black.  However, in comparisons tests I've done, they are equal in their
fade resistance.

In general, my testing indicates, consistent with the opinion of most
observers, that pigmented inksets will outlast dye-based inksets.  The more
pigment in an inkset, the more it seems to fade.  So, Piezo and MIS are the
competitors that I have been interested in.  I know of no other pigmented
B&W inkset.

I've done comparisons between those two, and the MIS fades less.  I believe
this is because the Piezo midtone inks contain significant amounts of dyes.

Note, however, in comparing these two inksets, that the Piezo inkset warmed
less than the standard MIS inkset at the 100 hour point of my tests.  They
were about equal at 200 hours, and the MIS pulled ahead at 300 hours.

I personally think that warming is more of a problem than fading.  The
carbon based pigments in MIS and Piezo should last a long time, on the right
paper (a major factor).  However, they do warm.  The rate of warming is
fastest at first and then slows.

What we've found so far with the variable-tone inkset is that the colder the
tone, the less the print seems to warm.  While some like to warm their
prints to achieve a more sepia color, I want my neutral prints to stay that
way.  As such, I have built-in some coolness in the variable-tone neutral
curve to absorb some of the initial warming.  (My next effort will be to add
a counter-shift mix to the toner to offset the warming -- but no guarantees
here.)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks for the long reply. I guess my problem arises from confusing 
the results of color tests with the quad (pigment-based) inks. 
Chris
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Chris,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >Looking through the MIS Web site, I'm having a hard time getting a
> >clear idea of how long I can reasonably expect prints made with 
their
> >quadtone and variable quadtone inksets to last before noticeable
> >fading occurs. Is there good info on this yet -- any real 
competitors
> >for B&W.
> 
> MIS has posted their RIT test results.  The MIS Archival Color 
inkset was
> rated for a display life of at least "50 years."  (I really don't 
know how
> good these estimates are, but for comparison purposes, they have 
some value.
> It's better than nothing.)
> 
> The RIT test of the MIS Archival Color was limited by the yellow 
pigment.
> Generations, with it's new yellow pigment (the other colors appear 
to be the
> same pigments) is now up to "75 years." (MIS will also sell this 
new yellow,
> but it changes the color and won't work with the old profiles.)
> 
> Because the variable-tone inkset is based mostly on the MIS black, 
and uses
> only very small amounts of the cyan and magenta in the toner, it 
should be
> rated at much longer than this.
> 
> The variable-tone black is similar to the Piezo black and different 
than the
> MIS black.  However, in comparisons tests I've done, they are equal 
in their
> fade resistance.
> 
> In general, my testing indicates, consistent with the opinion of 
most
> observers, that pigmented inksets will outlast dye-based inksets.  
The more
> pigment in an inkset, the more it seems to fade.  So, Piezo and MIS 
are the
> competitors that I have been interested in.  I know of no other 
pigmented
> B&W inkset.
> 
> I've done comparisons between those two, and the MIS fades less.  I 
believe
> this is because the Piezo midtone inks contain significant amounts 
of dyes.
> 
> Note, however, in comparing these two inksets, that the Piezo 
inkset warmed
> less than the standard MIS inkset at the 100 hour point of my 
tests.  They
> were about equal at 200 hours, and the MIS pulled ahead at 300 
hours.
> 
> I personally think that warming is more of a problem than fading.  
The
> carbon based pigments in MIS and Piezo should last a long time, on 
the right
> paper (a major factor).  However, they do warm.  The rate of 
warming is
> fastest at first and then slows.
> 
> What we've found so far with the variable-tone inkset is that the 
colder the
> tone, the less the print seems to warm.  While some like to warm 
their
> prints to achieve a more sepia color, I want my neutral prints to 
stay that
> way.  As such, I have built-in some coolness in the variable-tone 
neutral
> curve to absorb some of the initial warming.  (My next effort will 
be to add
> a counter-shift mix to the toner to offset the warming -- but no 
guarantees

> here.)
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

RIT gives most MIS inks 50 - 75 years on acid free 100 percent cotton papers.





ldmr@... wrote:

> Looking through the MIS Web site, I'm having a hard time getting a
> clear idea of how long I can reasonably expect prints made with their
> quadtone and variable quadtone inksets to last before noticeable
> fading occurs. Is there good info on this yet -- any real competitors
> for B&W.
>
> Chris Hargens
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
Paul, I'm not trying to come off as consistantly argumentative. I'm
just interested in every aspect of these issues 
presented, particularly on this list.
To my knowledge, MIS full quad inksets have not been tested by RIT.
Let's assume for a moment that the lighter inks are 
dilutions of the black (is it the same black that was tested?). As
Wilhelm pointed out to the chagrin of many ink makers, 
diluting ink for light colors resulted in significanly shorter life.
This became an issue for Generations regarding how their M 
light and C light inks were made. So the RIT results really may have
nothing to do with how long an MIS quad print will last, 
and different coatings, which are evolving, can make a difference of
decades (i.e. Liege vrs Royal Plush).
Equally useful :), we get occassional reports from the Piezography
people about their window tests. Wilhelm has proven 
less than reliable too. All of these tests, yours, anyones, when
acumulated are of value. But I don't see how anyone can 
make any definitive statements, some of them could be dead wrong
because of methodology.
Lysonic dye inks, both color and quadtone, have recieved fantastic
Wilhelm years on some papers. So we can't even 
conclude that the presence of dyes will shorten print life
conclusively. K vrs CMY blends from the same inkset show that 
mixing colors creates yet another possible problem.
As for warming being the biggest problem, this is restated for people
new to the issue. We are all printing on coated 
papers, so we get warming. Any lurkers here printing on uncoated
papers like Somerset Velvet know what these inksets 
really look like. Our prints are warming as the ink and coating
complete their chemical interaction. Is the ink warming? Is 
the coating warming? Both? These inks do not warm in and of
themselves, but when they hit that coating...
The warming is a fact of life. Until a new coating, or some very
different inkset comes along, it's part of the deal. I've been  
making some Piezo ink prints on a gelatin coated paper the last few
weeks, they are not warming at all.
I don't "like to warm" my prints. But I don't want the print to warm
on someone's wall after they bought it. So the prints that 
go in my portfolio are brought to the point they will closely
resemble (hopefully) for quite some time.
It would be great if the prints stayed the way they emerge from the
printer. But even you are suggesting an 
overcompensation so they will settle to where you want them.
So... more stuff to confuse the issue.
Tyler