Digital BW, The Print

Folks,

this  is terrible. A couple of people can throw the whole list off with stupid 
flame wars. I have been "moderate" in the past as moderator, and have 
posted  gentle comments about how we should all respect each other etc. 

Considering these past warnings, I have no reason to tolerate unacceptable 
behaviour by members like Mr. Magera and Mr. Dickbo. The latter posted 
"unsubscribe" in message 14309 - which I took to mean that he wanted to be 
removed from this membership and I was happy to oblige. 
Mr. Magera, on the other hand, offered an apology to the group, which is 
much appreciated. His attack of Mike Kravit on message 14273 is, however, 
unacceptable, and similar language in the future will be considered grounds 
for removal from the list. We have to draw the line somewhere, for the benefit 
of everyone, and this is where it's drawn.

For the benefit of all, I am quoting from Martin's message #1 which started the 
list (you can read all of it by looking up the first message):

>>Moderation of the forum by the users includes an expectation of basic 
manners and good taste. While digital B&W printing would seem like a 
very mild topic to most, those of us with experience know that people 
can become very impassioned over their art, ideas, and choice of 
materials. If they were not passionate about their art, they would 
not be engaged in this often-difficult enterprise. Open and candid 
discussion is encouraged. However, courtesy must prevail and it is 
expected that exchanges should not deteriorate into personal insults, 
harassment, etc. If they should, intervention will be taken as 
necessary.<<<

Please be advised that if a thread deteriorates past an initial 
"misunderstanding", offenders will be removed from the list.

Above and beyond issues of civility or "grown up behaviour", if you will, I am 
dismayed by the loss of perspective: As end users, we benefit the most by 
comparing notes and fostering competition among manufacturers. The reason 
this list came about was precisely so that no single commercial entity owns it 
and all products can be discussed openly.  If this disintegrates into personal 
attacks over differences of opinion - or even erroneous facts - we all loose and 
the list ceases to have a reason to exist. 

So, one more time: no personal attacks will be tolerated here.

Thank you

Antonis Ricos
<list moderator along with Martin Wesley>

Thank you.

>Folks,
>
>this  is terrible. A couple of people can throw the whole list off with stupid
>flame wars. I have been "moderate" in the past as moderator, and have
>posted  gentle comments about how we should all respect each other etc.
>
>Considering these past warnings, I have no reason to tolerate unacceptable
>behaviour by members like Mr. Magera and Mr. Dickbo. The latter posted
>"unsubscribe" in message 14309 - which I took to mean that he wanted to be
>removed from this membership and I was happy to oblige.
>Mr. Magera, on the other hand, offered an apology to the group, which is
>much appreciated. His attack of Mike Kravit on message 14273 is, however,
>unacceptable, and similar language in the future will be considered grounds
>for removal from the list. We have to draw the line somewhere, for the benefit
>of everyone, and this is where it's drawn.
>
>For the benefit of all, I am quoting from Martin's message #1 which 
>started the
>list (you can read all of it by looking up the first message):
>
>>>Moderation of the forum by the users includes an expectation of basic
>manners and good taste. While digital B&W printing would seem like a
>very mild topic to most, those of us with experience know that people
>can become very impassioned over their art, ideas, and choice of
>materials. If they were not passionate about their art, they would
>not be engaged in this often-difficult enterprise. Open and candid
>discussion is encouraged. However, courtesy must prevail and it is
>expected that exchanges should not deteriorate into personal insults,
>harassment, etc. If they should, intervention will be taken as
>necessary.<<<
>
>Please be advised that if a thread deteriorates past an initial
>"misunderstanding", offenders will be removed from the list.
>
>Above and beyond issues of civility or "grown up behaviour", if you will, I am
>dismayed by the loss of perspective: As end users, we benefit the most by
>comparing notes and fostering competition among manufacturers. The reason
>this list came about was precisely so that no single commercial entity owns it
>and all products can be discussed openly.  If this disintegrates into personal
>attacks over differences of opinion - or even erroneous facts - we 
>all loose and
>the list ceases to have a reason to exist.
>
>So, one more time: no personal attacks will be tolerated here.
>
>Thank you
>
>Antonis Ricos
><list moderator along with Martin Wesley>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
>to keep them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
>various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


-- 
Jean-Michel Paris
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795, rue Muir, Porte 801                   Sans Frais : 1 (888) 211-8522
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<jmparis@...>
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@y...> wrote:

>(that my) attack of Mike Kravit on message 14273 is, however, 
>unacceptable, and similar language in the future will be considered 
>grounds for removal from the list. We have to draw the line somewhere, 
>for the benefit of everyone, and this is where it's drawn.




Antonis,

I did not attack Mike Kravitt. Mike wrote that what I said was untrue when it was actually true. I wrote that what Mike said was a lie when it was in fact not the truth. I asked him for an apology for his attack on me. I apologized to the group for reacting, not attacking.

Mike has to accept his own responsibility. And I for one do not want to go down on this list as an attacker.

No one should be above reproach, don't you agree? Shouldn't everyone be treated equally?

respect,

Brian


__________________________________________________________________
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Brian,

I read Mike's post, and I think what he said is just another way of 
saying "not entirely accurate", or "I don't think that's right".  
It's a linguistic thing, not, as I read it, a personal attack on you 
at all.

That's the problem with all lists.  If you and Mike were standing in 
front of each other, these misunderstandings would be dealt with 
immediately.  

Mike is a decent fellow who I have cause to thank personally for his 
help, as so many others here do also.  I have no doubt you are also a 
decent guy :-)

--
Quentin  



-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., MagerabamB@n... wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "antonisphoto" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> 
> >(that my) attack of Mike Kravit on message 14273 is, however, 
> >unacceptable, and similar language in the future will be 
considered 
> >grounds for removal from the list. We have to draw the line 
somewhere, 
> >for the benefit of everyone, and this is where it's drawn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Antonis,
> 
> I did not attack Mike Kravitt. Mike wrote that what I said was 
untrue when it was actually true. I wrote that what Mike said was a 
lie when it was in fact not the truth. I asked him for an apology for 
his attack on me. I apologized to the group for reacting, not 
attacking.
> 
> Mike has to accept his own responsibility. And I for one do not 
want to go down on this list as an attacker.
> 
> No one should be above reproach, don't you agree? Shouldn't 
everyone be treated equally?
> 
> respect,
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________________________
> Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. 
Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! 
http://shopnow.netscape.com/
> 
> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at 
http://webmail.netscape.com/

I won't review the actual posts in question, however, personal attacks 
are NEVER to be tolerated even on unmoderated groups..  I have a group 
of over 1700 members myself, it is as UNMODERATED as theycome, the only 
two things that will get people bounced are:

1)    Unadulterated SPAM

2)    Personal attacks..

I won't judge this instance.. But, as a policy, Antonis, you have no 
choice...

Keith