Digital BW, The Print

I used them once and got beautiful black and white prints. Unfortunately
most of Lyson's inks have bad metamerism problems, and under tungsten
lights, the small gamut prints looked magenta. In daylight, they were
beautiful.  With the 1160, you will see a small dot pattern in light areas.

Jerry

regisr57 wrote:

> 
> I read that someone has problems with Lyson Small Gamut inks and Epson
> 1160.
> Do you can confirm this or do you have no troubles and good results?
>

Jerry 
I think it depends upon which paper combination you use, and the temperature 
of the halogen lights. I would rather have that than clogging!

Just don't use piezo and you won't have clogs. I've now gone through 1 4oz
set of MIS FS and half way down a set of 4 pint bottles - no clogs. IMO you
can't sell a picture with inks that colour-shift.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: <pmapstone@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lyson SG and 1160


> Jerry
> I think it depends upon which paper combination you use, and the
temperature
> of the halogen lights. I would rather have that than clogging!
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>
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>

Julian Thomas wrote:

> Just don't use piezo and you won't have clogs. I've now gone through 1 4oz
> set of MIS FS and half way down a set of 4 pint bottles - no clogs. 
> IMO you
> can't sell a picture with inks that colour-shift.
>
>
If we are going to re-address this OLD issue...

1)    The Lyson SG's do not IN MY EXPERIENCE show strong metamerism.

2)    If you need B&W glossy prints from inkjet you have only three options:

a)    Lyson SG (some metamerism)

b)    Lumijet Monochrome (haven't tried these)

c)    Individually spraying prints made with MIS inks...

And, as far as inks that colour-shift as a result of metamerism, whether 
or not you or I want to sell prints that do so, the reality is lots of 
pros have been successfully selling 2000P  prints (just one example) 
which display much more pronounced metamerism than the SG  inkset...

Now. let's leave this issue alone... It gets really boring debating 
this.. Until there are new products on the market nothing is a perfect 
fit solution..



Keith

At the moment, IMHO, the whole ink vs. dye debate is near inane..

It's like PC vs Mac, GM vs Ford, Toyota vs Nissan, Canon vs. Nikon...

Everyone needs to get a grip... These are just TOOLS..

There is no such thing as a perfect, one-size fits all, does everything 
TOOL...

Dye inkset supporters and Pigment inkset supporters got a strong push to 
divided camps when EPSON produced a 1270/870 inkset with a flawed cyan 
dye...  Then they introduced a pigmented inkset in the 2000P with strong 
metamerism...

So, people decided one technology or the other was "bad."  They then 
went out and staked their own little piles of money on whichever they 
felt was the "good" type of inkset (by buying dye based or pigment based 
inks)..

Guess what?  Both: current dye-based inksets and current pigment-based 
inksets have shortcomings.

I run both inksets for different purposes, so I have no axe to grind. 
 But people who have chosen only one or the other, seem to quickly start 
selectively reinforcing the  choice they've made until the other option 
is "really bad"..  It's like the guy or woman who buys a car and 
suddenly  selectively perceives only good reviews or advertisements for 
the car they've bought..  It may be a natural tendency, but it just does 
not lead to accurate reviews or appraisals of products..  It does 
promote brand loyalty though...  ;-)  Once you know you are doing it 
though, you can make more rational and more beneficial consumer choices...


Keith

OK, knee jerk response on my part. On the glossy print side of things, I've
had great results with the BrightCube Semi matte. You still need to spray,
but this paper takes the ink and spray really well. Being in Europe I used
the Ghiant spray which lays down smoothly and thinly. I made a couple of big
sales whilst in London with prints on this paper - the other prints on view
were silver and the BrightCube held up well.

Julian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lyson SG and 1160


> Julian Thomas wrote:
>
> > Just don't use piezo and you won't have clogs. I've now gone through 1
4oz
> > set of MIS FS and half way down a set of 4 pint bottles - no clogs.
> > IMO you
> > can't sell a picture with inks that colour-shift.
> >
> >
> If we are going to re-address this OLD issue...
>
> 1)    The Lyson SG's do not IN MY EXPERIENCE show strong metamerism.
>
> 2)    If you need B&W glossy prints from inkjet you have only three
options:
>
> a)    Lyson SG (some metamerism)
>
> b)    Lumijet Monochrome (haven't tried these)
>
> c)    Individually spraying prints made with MIS inks...
>
> And, as far as inks that colour-shift as a result of metamerism, whether
> or not you or I want to sell prints that do so, the reality is lots of
> pros have been successfully selling 2000P  prints (just one example)
> which display much more pronounced metamerism than the SG  inkset...
>
> Now. let's leave this issue alone... It gets really boring debating
> this.. Until there are new products on the market nothing is a perfect
> fit solution..
>
>
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

OK I'm chastised. I use dyes for colour proofing so I've got half a foot in
both camps...

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lyson SG and 1160


> At the moment, IMHO, the whole ink vs. dye debate is near inane..
>
> It's like PC vs Mac, GM vs Ford, Toyota vs Nissan, Canon vs. Nikon...
>
> Everyone needs to get a grip... These are just TOOLS..
>
> There is no such thing as a perfect, one-size fits all, does everything
> TOOL...
>
> Dye inkset supporters and Pigment inkset supporters got a strong push to
> divided camps when EPSON produced a 1270/870 inkset with a flawed cyan
> dye...  Then they introduced a pigmented inkset in the 2000P with strong
> metamerism...
>
> So, people decided one technology or the other was "bad."  They then
> went out and staked their own little piles of money on whichever they
> felt was the "good" type of inkset (by buying dye based or pigment based
> inks)..
>
> Guess what?  Both: current dye-based inksets and current pigment-based
> inksets have shortcomings.
>
> I run both inksets for different purposes, so I have no axe to grind.
>  But people who have chosen only one or the other, seem to quickly start
> selectively reinforcing the  choice they've made until the other option
> is "really bad"..  It's like the guy or woman who buys a car and
> suddenly  selectively perceives only good reviews or advertisements for
> the car they've bought..  It may be a natural tendency, but it just does
> not lead to accurate reviews or appraisals of products..  It does
> promote brand loyalty though...  ;-)  Once you know you are doing it
> though, you can make more rational and more beneficial consumer choices...
>
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

MIS inks have never clogged for me, in a 1280 or in an 1160.  

Jerry

pmapstone@... wrote:

> 
> Jerry
> I think it depends upon which paper combination you use, and the temperature
> of the halogen lights. I would rather have that than clogging!
>

Julian,

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Julian Thomas [mailto:julianthomas@...]
  Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 11:45 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lyson SG and 1160


  Just don't use piezo and you won't have clogs. I've now gone through 1 4oz
  set of MIS FS and half way down a set of 4 pint bottles - no clogs. IMO
you
  can't sell a picture with inks that colour-shift.
  [Paul Roark]
  I agree.  However, I'd include shifting warm after printing.
Unfortunately, FS does that -- may less than Piezo, but it's still there.
The FS-N is the most stable over time.

  Paul




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I need to go warmer! I'm having good results (and sales) with FS on glossy.
the problem is spraying the darn things and then hoping that dust doesn't
get on them!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Lyson SG and 1160 [off list]


> Julian,
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Julian Thomas [mailto:julianthomas@...]
>   Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 11:45 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lyson SG and 1160
>
>
>   Just don't use piezo and you won't have clogs. I've now gone through 1
4oz
>   set of MIS FS and half way down a set of 4 pint bottles - no clogs. IMO
> you
>   can't sell a picture with inks that colour-shift.
>   [Paul Roark]
>   I agree.  However, I'd include shifting warm after printing.
> Unfortunately, FS does that -- may less than Piezo, but it's still there.
> The FS-N is the most stable over time.
>
>   Paul
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Thom McGraw wrote:

> And then there's Keith, he doesn't
> see the matamerism as a big issue, but of course he's
> color blind :).
>
>
Red, Green, huh?  They look the same to me!  I don't discriminate 
against any color.. LOL

Actually, the only place I consistently try to be color blind is when it 
comes to judging and relating to real people (as opposed to prints)..  ;-)


[Keith]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Editor P.O.V. Image 
Service" <editor@p...> wrote:
 
> Everyone needs to get a grip... These are just TOOLS..
> 
> There is no such thing as a perfect, one-size fits all, does 
everything TOOL...
  
  Hey Keith this was an awesome post. It hit home a couple of 
important issues. But Kieeeeeeeeeeeeeeth the squeeky wheel gets 
oiled. If people don't bring it up and question, complain, etc. those 
providing the products will assume everything is good and that 
there's no need for improvement. Besides if feels so good to rant 
sometimes ;) 
   On the subject of dye vs. pigment I would beg this question of any 
and everyone using digital B&W. WHAT DO YOU WANT? If providers knew, 
really knew, what everyone wanted/needed there probably wouldn't be 
this dye/pigment divergence. 
   Your tool analogy was perfect, the one size fits all campaign 
isn't working and I believe a detriment to advancing the technology 
this art. The technology needs be mute and in the background allowing 
artists to create, not struggle with a lot the issues that we see 
coming up here for instance. It's turning artists into technicians 
and I (call me naive) imagine it's taking away a lot of the enjoyment.
   So I would ask the question WHAT DO YOU WANT in your inksets, 
software, printer platforms. 
   I think a critical mistake was made at the beginning with the jump 
into carbon pigment inks, now before I'm tarred, feathered and set 
aflame let my qualify that. I think a better route to take would have 
been to match the characteristics of the best traditional 
photographic techniques currently available and slowly evolve the 
chemistry and technology to eliminate the bad points and perfect the 
good. What happens to a silver, selium, sepia, or palladium/platnum 
traditional print when it's exposed to light, ozone, etc?
  OK sorry for the long post anyone who actually read this. Please 
fill me in as I have been in this group since April and still haven't 
gotten a good idea of what's relly needed.

Thank very much in advance to anyone who responds.
Jeff

On 5/13/02 9:03 PM, "iwasnvrhere" <iwasnvrhere@...> wrote:

> Your tool analogy was perfect, the one size fits all campaign
> isn't working and I believe a detriment to advancing the technology
> this art. 

The ink jet market is certainly along way from one size fits all as it
stands.  Epson offers an extensive array of dye AND pigment options.  These
are all currently supported.  In addition there are numerous dye AND pigment
3rd party options in both the color and quad markets.  With as confusing as
the incredible diversity of options...sometimes I wish we had a one size
fits all option.  Personally, I'm running several quad printers with
different ink sets...drivers, etc... and several color printers with
different ink sets...my guess is that this isn't all that common on this
list.  I wish...I wish...I wish...I could have one 7000 class machine that
would make fine art quality BW and color prints...but I don't see it
happening soon (at least probably not with the 7600/9600 offering)...but if
I could get one printer that did it all...my studio would be a lot less
cluttered (with printers)...and I could spend less time tweaking technology
and more time making art...but maybe this is a pipe dream.

Robert

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 5/13/02 9:03 PM, "iwasnvrhere" <iwasnvrhere@y...> wrote:
 
  I wish...I wish...I wish...I could have one 7000 class machine that
> would make fine art quality BW and color prints...but I don't see it
> happening soon 

   Probably not. I think to get the level of quality for a fine art 
print we'll need a printer with at least 12 ink positions (although 
16 would be pratically perfect). The only printer out there right now 
with 12 indepedent ink slots is a Colorspan Displaymaker. So I 
woudn't say it's a pipe dream -maybe one that's going to take awhile 
to be realized.

Jeff

Actually, I think the new 7600/9600's are only two jets short.  I think that
a black plus two grays would have been adequate with variable droplet
technology for B&W printing...but apparently the black and gray alone come
up short.  And while I'm on it...why the heck didn't Epson just put in an
extra nozzle so that we could have both the photo and the matte black in the
same printer without switching inks and wasting an entire cartridge!  For
color I think I would be happy with the 6 color printers now running 3rd
party inks (either the Indelibles or MIS perpetuals which have pretty large
gamuts, low metamerism and are 100% pigment) provided that someone (like
Epson) calibrated their drivers for them...or if someone came out with an
easy to calibrate third party RIP.  From what I understand the ultrachromes
are even better...so that should be good enough for color and BW toning. So
I guess that I'm up to 9 nozzles now:  Photo Black, Matte Black, Medium
Gray, Light Gray, Cyan, Photo Cyan, Magenta, Photo Magenta, Yellow.  An
extra nozzle for applying a clear coat might not be a bad idea either...and
then well a nozzle for green and orange...well 13...and...this is why they
don't listen to us (me)!

Robert

On 5/13/02 11:23 PM, "iwasnvrhere" <iwasnvrhere@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>> On 5/13/02 9:03 PM, "iwasnvrhere" <iwasnvrhere@y...> wrote:
> 
> I wish...I wish...I wish...I could have one 7000 class machine that
>> would make fine art quality BW and color prints...but I don't see it
>> happening soon 
> 
>  Probably not. I think to get the level of quality for a fine art
> print we'll need a printer with at least 12 ink positions (although
> 16 would be pratically perfect). The only printer out there right now
> with 12 indepedent ink slots is a Colorspan Displaymaker. So I
> woudn't say it's a pipe dream -maybe one that's going to take awhile
> to be realized.
> 
> Jeff

But, Robert...in your wet darkroom, did you only use one type of 
developer and one type of paper??? Was the change from one to another 
simple and seamless??

I love all the articles and books that say, "don't worry about the 
technique or tools, just focus on the image in the viewer..."

I maintain that you can't forget the technique or technology until 
you have mastered it well enough to use it instinctively or at least 
automatically. Until then, we struggle with both he art and the 
technology...or maybe there is "no until then..."

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 5/13/02 9:03 PM, "iwasnvrhere" <iwasnvrhere@y...> wrote:
> 
> > Your tool analogy was perfect, the one size fits all campaign
> > isn't working and I believe a detriment to advancing the 
technology
> > this art. 
> 
> The ink jet market is certainly along way from one size fits all as 
it
> stands.  Epson offers an extensive array of dye AND pigment 
options.  These
> are all currently supported.  In addition there are numerous dye 
AND pigment
> 3rd party options in both the color and quad markets.  With as 
confusing as
> the incredible diversity of options...sometimes I wish we had a one 
size
> fits all option.  Personally, I'm running several quad printers with
> different ink sets...drivers, etc... and several color printers with
> different ink sets...my guess is that this isn't all that common on 
this
> list.  I wish...I wish...I wish...I could have one 7000 class 
machine that
> would make fine art quality BW and color prints...but I don't see it
> happening soon (at least probably not with the 7600/9600 
offering)...but if
> I could get one printer that did it all...my studio would be a lot 
less
> cluttered (with printers)...and I could spend less time tweaking 
technology

> and more time making art...but maybe this is a pipe dream.
> 
> Robert