Digital BW, The Print

This prior post makes me think of yet another 
variable in this whole quest to eliminate color-crossovers when 
printing "neutral B/W" images using color inks. This is how I 
approach it now; I wonder if anyone else does it this way, or has 
a better, more dependable way.

First off, I print everything through a custom profile, made for this 
paper/ink combo. In the Epson print driver, I have saved-out a 
MediaType setting, which is: 1440, Hi-speed off, and PhotoPaper 
as the MediaType. My source "working space" is always 
embedded ColorMatch RGB, because it's suited for my 
Pressview monitor. My output space is always "Tucker ICC 
Profile", which is the custom one created for this paper/ink. So in 
this area, nothing EVER changes. 

But, I can prep and tone a file in a zillion different ways. I've also 
found that even with this custom profile, the print can vary quite a 
bit from the monitor representation, depending on how I tone the 
b/w image. 

I always scan in Greyscale. Then burn/dodge in Greyscale. At 
that point, I convert to RGB to get it ready for toning. I have used 
Levels only to tone; I've used Hue/Saturation to tone. Mostly now I 
use HSB. 

I did a test where I took one image, and then cloned it several 
times on a big canvas area, and then toned it using different 
approaches. I was shocked at the output, and how much some 
of them didn't match the monitor. So now, when I find a method 
of toning that I like, using HSB, I save out those settings, and 
then LOAD them the next time. I even keep a printout by my 
machine to remind me how  a given setting will actually print. 
Sometimes, with one setting, the Saturation of the toning is just 
too strong. So I just find a setting that's a starting point, and then 
I can vary it if I want to, but at least I know basically how this type 
of toning will print.

If anyone else has an alternative approach to toning (sepia, or 
bleached, or blue), I'd like to know.

FYI: here's how I get a "bleached" look: I get the file ready, then 
tone it the normal way: say, normal sepia brown. But now, go into  
"COLOR RANGE" and select only the MIDTONES. (Use 
Command-H to get rid of the marching ants). Then, choose 
CURVES, and deepen the three-quarter tones, and then lighten 
the quarter-tones. You'll see the effect immediately. It very much 
resembles the way you can submerge a fiber print in a 
ferracyanide bath, or the Berg bleach, and watch the midtones fry 
out.

-Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com

Hi Mark,

I attempt to tonr using one of the canned duotones in PS6.01 and then 
adjust the color curve that I have chosen to get the look I want. I 
am new to printing and still going up the learning curve. Of course I 
have only been taking pictures for 30 years so I am still on that 
learning curve as well.
 The look I am trying to achieve is a selenium-toned b/w. This is 
difficult because I have only seen one such print many moons ago and 
my memory is not that great anymore. Essentially the look I want is 
that the blacks are very deep and the grays have a very deep,rich 
look about them. I'm afraid you won't learn too much from me, but I 
have learned a great deal from you and the rest of the list members. 
And to that end I would like to thank each and everyone of you for my 
education. Thank you.

Regards,

Tim

www.portraitsofnature.net








--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
> This prior post makes me think of yet another 
> variable in this whole quest to eliminate color-crossovers when 
> printing "neutral B/W" images using color inks. This is how I 
> approach it now; I wonder if anyone else does it this way, or has 
> a better, more dependable way.
> 
> First off, I print everything through a custom profile, made for 
this 
> paper/ink combo. In the Epson print driver, I have saved-out a 
> MediaType setting, which is: 1440, Hi-speed off, and PhotoPaper 
> as the MediaType. My source "working space" is always 
> embedded ColorMatch RGB, because it's suited for my 
> Pressview monitor. My output space is always "Tucker ICC 
> Profile", which is the custom one created for this paper/ink. So in 
> this area, nothing EVER changes. 
> 
> But, I can prep and tone a file in a zillion different ways. I've 
also 
> found that even with this custom profile, the print can vary quite 
a 
> bit from the monitor representation, depending on how I tone the 
> b/w image. 
> 
> I always scan in Greyscale. Then burn/dodge in Greyscale. At 
> that point, I convert to RGB to get it ready for toning. I have 
used 
> Levels only to tone; I've used Hue/Saturation to tone. Mostly now I 
> use HSB. 
> 
> I did a test where I took one image, and then cloned it several 
> times on a big canvas area, and then toned it using different 
> approaches. I was shocked at the output, and how much some 
> of them didn't match the monitor. So now, when I find a method 
> of toning that I like, using HSB, I save out those settings, and 
> then LOAD them the next time. I even keep a printout by my 
> machine to remind me how  a given setting will actually print. 
> Sometimes, with one setting, the Saturation of the toning is just 
> too strong. So I just find a setting that's a starting point, and 
then 
> I can vary it if I want to, but at least I know basically how this 
type 

> of toning will print.
> 
> If anyone else has an alternative approach to toning (sepia, or 
> bleached, or blue), I'd like to know.
> 
> FYI: here's how I get a "bleached" look: I get the file ready, then 
> tone it the normal way: say, normal sepia brown. But now, go into  
> "COLOR RANGE" and select only the MIDTONES. (Use 
> Command-H to get rid of the marching ants). Then, choose 
> CURVES, and deepen the three-quarter tones, and then lighten 
> the quarter-tones. You'll see the effect immediately. It very much 
> resembles the way you can submerge a fiber print in a 
> ferracyanide bath, or the Berg bleach, and watch the midtones fry 
> out.
> 
> -Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com

From: "Mark Tucker" <mark@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 00:56:45 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Digital BW] Toning Methods?


This prior post makes me think of yet another
variable in this whole quest to eliminate color-crossovers when
printing "neutral B/W" images using color inks. This is how I
approach it now; I wonder if anyone else does it this way, or has
a better, more dependable way.

First off, I print everything through a custom profile, made for this
paper/ink combo. In the Epson print driver, I have saved-out a
MediaType setting, which is: 1440, Hi-speed off, and PhotoPaper
as the MediaType. My source "working space" is always
embedded ColorMatch RGB, because it's suited for my
Pressview monitor. My output space is always "Tucker ICC
Profile", which is the custom one created for this paper/ink. So in
this area, nothing EVER changes.

But, I can prep and tone a file in a zillion different ways. I've also
found that even with this custom profile, the print can vary quite a
bit from the monitor representation, depending on how I tone the
b/w image. 

I always scan in Greyscale. Then burn/dodge in Greyscale. At
that point, I convert to RGB to get it ready for toning. I have used
Levels only to tone; I've used Hue/Saturation to tone. Mostly now I
use HSB. 

I did a test where I took one image, and then cloned it several
times on a big canvas area, and then toned it using different
approaches. I was shocked at the output, and how much some
of them didn't match the monitor. So now, when I find a method
of toning that I like, using HSB, I save out those settings, and
then LOAD them the next time. I even keep a printout by my
machine to remind me how  a given setting will actually print.
Sometimes, with one setting, the Saturation of the toning is just
too strong. So I just find a setting that's a starting point, and then
I can vary it if I want to, but at least I know basically how this type
of toning will print.

If anyone else has an alternative approach to toning (sepia, or
bleached, or blue), I'd like to know.

FYI: here's how I get a "bleached" look: I get the file ready, then
tone it the normal way: say, normal sepia brown. But now, go into
"COLOR RANGE" and select only the MIDTONES. (Use
Command-H to get rid of the marching ants). Then, choose
CURVES, and deepen the three-quarter tones, and then lighten
the quarter-tones. You'll see the effect immediately. It very much
resembles the way you can submerge a fiber print in a
ferracyanide bath, or the Berg bleach, and watch the midtones fry
out.

-Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark,

regarding monitor preview: this is unrelated to whether you tone or not. An 
RGB file should preview correctly if you follow good color management 
regardless of contents. One way to avoid the games that ColorSync can play 
at the system level, is to process the file through whatever printer profile you 
have and then send it through to the printer after you turn off any Color Sync 
functions available at the driver level.

Regarding crossovers: That is a common profile problem. You would have to 
optimize a profile for gray neutrality and even then, since you are fighting with 
the innards of the Epson driver over which you have no control, it's not a 
foolproof way. Just to make sure: you are talking about using 4 or 6 color inks 
in an Epson right? If you are using MIS VT or other printers or a RIP, please 
clarify. 

Regarding toning procedures: When you say you are using HSB, that means 
you measure your colors in HSB  - or is your file written in HSB.  Are you 
working in Photoshop? There is no such file format there.  Do you have a 
reason that you don't like a Hue/Saturation layer set to colorize? Regardless, 
saving your settings or layer is by far the best way to come back to a known 
point.

Antonis Ricos

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:
 
> First off, I print everything through a custom profile, made for this 
> paper/ink combo. In the Epson print driver, I have saved-out a 
> MediaType setting, which is: 1440, Hi-speed off, and PhotoPaper 
> as the MediaType. My source "working space" is always 
> embedded ColorMatch RGB, because it's suited for my 
> Pressview monitor. My output space is always "Tucker ICC 
> Profile", which is the custom one created for this paper/ink. So in 
> this area, nothing EVER changes. 
.......

> I always scan in Greyscale. Then burn/dodge in Greyscale. At 
> that point, I convert to RGB to get it ready for toning. I have used 
> Levels only to tone; I've used Hue/Saturation to tone. Mostly now I 
> use HSB. 
> 
> I did a test where I took one image, and then cloned it several 
> times on a big canvas area, and then toned it using different 
> approaches. I was shocked at the output, and how much some 
> of them didn't match the monitor. So now, when I find a method 
> of toning that I like, using HSB, I save out those settings, and 
> then LOAD them the next time. I even keep a printout by my 
> machine to remind me how  a given setting will actually print. 
.......

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Antonis Ricos" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> regarding monitor preview: this is unrelated to whether you 
>tone or not. An 
> RGB file should preview correctly if you follow good color 
>management 
> regardless of contents. 


I thought the same thing. It *always* looks "close", and "close" is 
a very vague and subjective word here. But I was surprised to 
actually print out the same file, having toned it in different ways, 
and see how different toning methods didn't match the monitor 
exactly. I can only guess we're getting into gamut limitations 
here.


>One way to avoid the games that ColorSync can play 
> at the system level, is to process the file through whatever 
>printer profile you 
> have and then send it through to the printer after you turn off 
>any Color Sync 
> functions available at the driver level.


This is interesting too. Interesting to compare the same exact 
file: one, converted to the output space, and then printed with 
"Same as Source"; and then the second, with just an embedded 
profile, like ColorMatch RGB, but then output through the custom 
profile.

Even yet another interesting approach that showed up with yet a 
different result: Choose ColorSync in the Epson print driver, and 
print the file THAT way, using the custom proflle. I found a slightly 
different look to that even.


> 
> Regarding crossovers: That is a common profile problem. You 
>would have to 
> optimize a profile for gray neutrality and even then, since you 
>are fighting with 
> the innards of the Epson driver over which you have no control, 
>it's not a 
> foolproof way. 


Yes. The first phase of my custom profile was the grey-chip 
linearization test. But as anybody who's ever tried to print a 
21-step grey wedge, using six colors (CMYK,c,m) can attest, it's 
VERY tough to get all 21 chips to be the "same color" of neutral. It 
seems deceptively simple; but I dare you to try it sometime.


>Just to make sure: you are talking about using 4 or 6 color inks 
> in an Epson right? If you are using MIS VT or other printers or a 
>RIP, please 
> clarify. 


I'm on a 7000, using MIS lightfast dyes (six colors). Using Epson 
Smooth Fine Art.


> 
> Regarding toning procedures: When you say you are using 
HSB, that means 
> you measure your colors in HSB  - or is your file written in HSB.  
Are you 
> working in Photoshop? There is no such file format there.  Do 
you have a 
> reason that you don't like a Hue/Saturation layer set to 
colorize? Regardless, 
> saving your settings or layer is by far the best way to come 
back to a known 
> point.
> 
> Antonis Ricos


Yes. Probably said that unclearly. I am toning using 
Hue/Saturation/Brightness most of the time. In RGB mode. And 
using "colorize". But, I have also toned just using the different 
RGB channels; moving the middle gamma slider left and right, 
while in different individual channels. I *will* say too, that toning 
using H/S/B sometimes gives this weird "banding" look when 
radically-different tones are adjacent. Sometimes, using Levels 
seems like it tones smoother; smoother, as in the gradation. But 
Levels also seems more limited in how saturated and how 
extreme you can tone.

I don't really work in layers very often; I just do many multiple 
"Save As"'s along the way, ending up with numerous 
slightly-different files. Somehow, working in layers seems kinda 
sissy; ie. "just commit, one way or the other". Again, this is just 
the way I work; may be VERY different for other people.

-MT

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:
...
But I was surprised to 
> actually print out the same file, having toned it in different ways, 
> and see how different toning methods didn't match the monitor 
> exactly. I can only guess we're getting into gamut limitations 
> here.

Sure. That's one factor (RGB vs CcMmYK).

...... 
> Even yet another interesting approach that showed up with yet a 
> different result: Choose ColorSync in the Epson print driver, and 
> print the file THAT way, using the custom proflle. I found a slightly 
> different look to that even.

The problem with using colorsync at the driver level is that it uses your system 
profile which in turn is your monitor profile. As a result everytime you 
recalibrate your monitor you will end up with a different print (over time).


But as anybody who's ever tried to print a 
> 21-step grey wedge, using six colors (CMYK,c,m) can attest, it's 
> VERY tough to get all 21 chips to be the "same color" of neutral. It 
> seems deceptively simple; but I dare you to try it sometime.


I did. I now use Piezo instead! Thanks but no thanks on six-color gray.

 
> I'm on a 7000, using MIS lightfast dyes (six colors). Using Epson 
> Smooth Fine Art.


I am guessing you need the color inks so you can use the same printer for 
both? That's a serious dilemma for anyone getting up to the pricier Epsons. 
No good way to swap inks "on the fly" so to speak.  Other  devices offer more 
elegant ways (reecnt Iris upgrades, Ilford wide format etc).

....
 I am toning using 
> Hue/Saturation/Brightness most of the time. In RGB mode. And 
> using "colorize". But, I have also toned just using the different 
> RGB channels; moving the middle gamma slider left and right, 
> while in different individual channels. I *will* say too, that toning 
> using H/S/B sometimes gives this weird "banding" look when 
> radically-different tones are adjacent. Sometimes, using Levels 
> seems like it tones smoother; smoother, as in the gradation. But 
> Levels also seems more limited in how saturated and how 
> extreme you can tone.

As long as you are fiddling, you may want to try Lab. Makes more sense to 
keep color apart from grayscale.

> 
> I don't really work in layers very often; I just do many multiple 
> "Save As"'s along the way, ending up with numerous 
> slightly-different files. Somehow, working in layers seems kinda 
> sissy; ie. "just commit, one way or the other".

Sure, but not all layer uses are meant to be undone - as their primary 
purpose. An alternate workflow might be building layers on your main RGB 
file, then recording an action that makes a dupe, flattens it, and possibly even 
sizes it for you.
Also using combinations of layers opens up roads you wouldn't have 
otherwise. For example using a curve layer to adjust contrast and another to 
adjust Hue/Sat. Or  burn/dodge color  using layer calculations between copies 
of your bg image . On and on. Not the "law", just something to look into...


Antonis

> <antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> > Mark,
> > 
> > regarding monitor preview: this is unrelated to whether you 
> >tone or not. An 
> > RGB file should preview correctly if you follow good color 
> >management 
> > regardless of contents. 
> 
> 
> I thought the same thing. It *always* looks "close", and "close" 
is 
> a very vague and subjective word here. But I was surprised to 
> actually print out the same file, having toned it in different ways, 
> and see how different toning methods didn't match the monitor 
> exactly. I can only guess we're getting into gamut limitations 
> here.

Mark,

Have you used the soft-preview feature - command-Y -in 
Photoshop 6 for better accuracy in proofing? I t works pretty well 
for me.

Also thanks for sharing your techniques and not keeping it a 
mystery.

Your images are awesome!

Best, John V.

> The problem with using colorsync at the driver level is that it 
uses your system 
> profile which in turn is your monitor profile. As a result 
everytime you 
> recalibrate your monitor you will end up with a different print 
(over time).
> 
> Antonis

I don't think that is correct. Your monitor profile does not control 
the output of the printer - it is independent of the printer profile 
and image space.

Best, John V.

John,

when you choose ColorSync in the driver, what does it convert between?
It allegedly tries to automate the process of giving you on print what you see 
on your monitor. Maybe this was from earlier Epson drivers and I am incorrect 
on the present ones. What do you know for sure?

Thanks for pointing this out.


Antonis


PS:
<<If you wish to put your name as the author of your posts on the list, please 
see our Files section>List-related matters>Your name instead of a partial 
email address on posts >>


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., jvlist@h... wrote:

> > The problem with using colorsync at the driver level is that it 
> uses your system 
> > profile which in turn is your monitor profile. As a result 
> everytime you 
> > recalibrate your monitor you will end up with a different print 
> (over time).
> > 
> > Antonis
> 
> I don't think that is correct. Your monitor profile does not control 
> the output of the printer - it is independent of the printer profile 
> and image space.
> 
> Best, John V.

> John,
> 
> when you choose ColorSync in the driver, what does it convert 
between?
> It allegedly tries to automate the process of giving you on print 
what you see 
> on your monitor. Maybe this was from earlier Epson drivers 
and I am incorrect 
> on the present ones. What do you know for sure?
> 
> Thanks for pointing this out.
> 
> Antonis
> 

Antonis,

What do I know for sure? Oh man...I was afraid you were going to 
ask me that!
 
For sure I know Photoshop is one of the few apps that need and 
can take advantage of ColorSync and the 'System' profile which 
now has been named 'Display' in the Colorsync control panel. 
This is Mac with OS 9.1.

Try this on a Mac - open a color image in Photoshop. Then go to 
the Monitor Control Panel> click Color and choose the 'Genric 
Gray Profile' as your 'System' profile. Close the panel - the color 
image will turn B + W. Then print...out will print a color image! 
The printer output was not modified by the System/Monitor 
profile!

Basically the monitor profile and Photoshop are a closed loop 
system - the printer profile is not involved with the display of the 
image - except with soft-proofing. Same with Photoshop and the 
printer - it's a closed loop system and the monitor profile has no 
say in how the printer will render the image. 

In the Epson driver advanced dialogue window when I choose 
Colorsync I'm only offered paper profiles - no others - so the 
'System' profile does not come into play here.

When 'Automatic' is selected - also in the advanced dioluge box 
the Epson driver is doing it's own black magic - I don't think it's 
using ColorSync at all - I'm pretty sure on this one.

It helps of course to have a properly calibrated/profiled monitor.

Then Color Management gets foggy for me!!!

Best, John V.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., jvlist@h... wrote:
 
> In the Epson driver advanced dialogue window when I choose 
> Colorsync I'm only offered paper profiles - no others - so the 
> 'System' profile does not come into play here.

John,

here is where we are getting a little foggy, I think. The Epson driver converts 
"to" these paper profiles, but where "from"? 

One option is  the embedded profile of the RGB image to be printed. 
Another is the source color space that the driver asks for. 
Another is to assume that your color space is same as monitor (as it used to 
be before Photoshop 5). In the latter case the Epson driver would 
automatically read that from the ColorSync control panel.

I don't have the Epson dialogue box in front of me but those are the options in 
principle anyway. So, do you have a sure way to tell which of these happens 
when you pick ColorSync in the options of the Epson driver?

Antonis

Mark,
What kind of toning do you end up with? Is it sepia, 
selenium,platinum what? I have been trying to get a duotone that I 
really like, but nothing so far, close but no cigar. Thanks.

Tim
www.portraitsofnature.net











--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Antonis Ricos" 
> <antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> > Mark,
> > 
> > regarding monitor preview: this is unrelated to whether you 
> >tone or not. An 
> > RGB file should preview correctly if you follow good color 
> >management 
> > regardless of contents. 
> 
> 
> I thought the same thing. It *always* looks "close", and "close" is 
> a very vague and subjective word here. But I was surprised to 
> actually print out the same file, having toned it in different 
ways, 
> and see how different toning methods didn't match the monitor 
> exactly. I can only guess we're getting into gamut limitations 
> here.
> 
> 
> >One way to avoid the games that ColorSync can play 
> > at the system level, is to process the file through whatever 
> >printer profile you 
> > have and then send it through to the printer after you turn off 
> >any Color Sync 
> > functions available at the driver level.
> 
> 
> This is interesting too. Interesting to compare the same exact 
> file: one, converted to the output space, and then printed with 
> "Same as Source"; and then the second, with just an embedded 
> profile, like ColorMatch RGB, but then output through the custom 
> profile.
> 
> Even yet another interesting approach that showed up with yet a 
> different result: Choose ColorSync in the Epson print driver, and 
> print the file THAT way, using the custom proflle. I found a 
slightly 
> different look to that even.
> 
> 
> > 
> > Regarding crossovers: That is a common profile problem. You 
> >would have to 
> > optimize a profile for gray neutrality and even then, since you 
> >are fighting with 
> > the innards of the Epson driver over which you have no control, 
> >it's not a 
> > foolproof way. 
> 
> 
> Yes. The first phase of my custom profile was the grey-chip 
> linearization test. But as anybody who's ever tried to print a 
> 21-step grey wedge, using six colors (CMYK,c,m) can attest, it's 
> VERY tough to get all 21 chips to be the "same color" of neutral. 
It 
> seems deceptively simple; but I dare you to try it sometime.
> 
> 
> >Just to make sure: you are talking about using 4 or 6 color inks 
> > in an Epson right? If you are using MIS VT or other printers or a 
> >RIP, please 
> > clarify. 
> 
> 
> I'm on a 7000, using MIS lightfast dyes (six colors). Using Epson 
> Smooth Fine Art.
> 
> 
> > 
> > Regarding toning procedures: When you say you are using 
> HSB, that means 
> > you measure your colors in HSB  - or is your file written in 
HSB.  
> Are you 
> > working in Photoshop? There is no such file format there.  Do 
> you have a 
> > reason that you don't like a Hue/Saturation layer set to 
> colorize? Regardless, 
> > saving your settings or layer is by far the best way to come 
> back to a known 
> > point.
> > 
> > Antonis Ricos
> 
> 
> Yes. Probably said that unclearly. I am toning using 
> Hue/Saturation/Brightness most of the time. In RGB mode. And 
> using "colorize". But, I have also toned just using the different 
> RGB channels; moving the middle gamma slider left and right, 
> while in different individual channels. I *will* say too, that 
toning 

> using H/S/B sometimes gives this weird "banding" look when 
> radically-different tones are adjacent. Sometimes, using Levels 
> seems like it tones smoother; smoother, as in the gradation. But 
> Levels also seems more limited in how saturated and how 
> extreme you can tone.
> 
> I don't really work in layers very often; I just do many multiple 
> "Save As"'s along the way, ending up with numerous 
> slightly-different files. Somehow, working in layers seems kinda 
> sissy; ie. "just commit, one way or the other". Again, this is just 
> the way I work; may be VERY different for other people.
> 
> -MT

> I don't have the Epson dialogue box in front of me but those are the options
> in 
> principle anyway. So, do you have a sure way to tell which of these happens
> when you pick ColorSync in the options of the Epson driver?
> 
> Antonis 


I'm running late for work so I'll be brief. Epson has it's own ideas on how
to do color management - it's pretty screwy. But anyway ColorSync does not
really take over on its own. It just helps apps and components communicate
with each other. Check out Bruce Fraser's article:

http://www.creativepro.com:80/story/feature/2440.html

Best, John V.

> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: 27 Aug 2001 07:50:51 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Digest Number 80
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
 
> John,
> 
> here is where we are getting a little foggy, I think. The Epson driver
> converts 
> "to" these paper profiles, but where "from"?
  
Not sure if Epson and Apple have resolved their communications problems but
the "from" space that the Epson ColorSync option uses is *supposed* to be
whatever you set as the "Input" space in the ColorSync control panel.  If
you always use (say) Adobe RGB in Photoshop you would probably want to set
the ColorSync "Input" to Adobe RGB when you are using Photoshop.  If you are
using a custom RGB space (like a printer space) to edit in Photoshop then
you would use that space as the "Input".   If you are not using a non-color
managed software then you would probably be best off setting the "Input"
space to the same space as your monitor since that is what non-managed
software use (by default).  At least that is how I understand it - but be
careful on that since I'm not sure Apple and Epson have really learned to
speak each others languages quite yet.  I'm avoiding the issue by using the
printer space in Photoshop.

Dan Culbertson

Dan,

thanks for at least the attempt to clarify this. I would agree with what you say - 
just don't have the time right now to test and find out for sure. 

Antonis 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Dan Culbertson <danculb@b...> 
wrote:
> Not sure if Epson and Apple have resolved their communications problems 
but
> the "from" space that the Epson ColorSync option uses is *supposed* to be
> whatever you set as the "Input" space in the ColorSync control panel.  If
> you always use (say) Adobe RGB in Photoshop you would probably want to 
set
> the ColorSync "Input" to Adobe RGB when you are using Photoshop.  If you 
are

> using a custom RGB space (like a printer space) to edit in Photoshop then
> you would use that space as the "Input".   If you are not using a non-color
> managed software then you would probably be best off setting the "Input"
> space to the same space as your monitor since that is what non-managed
> software use (by default).  At least that is how I understand it - but be
> careful on that since I'm not sure Apple and Epson have really learned to
> speak each others languages quite yet.  I'm avoiding the issue by using the
> printer space in Photoshop.
> 
> Dan Culbertson

Thanks John. Ironically Bruce - in an otherwise very clear description - doesn't 
get into the details of whether ColorSync uses the RGB input space or the 
display profile as the "from" in this equation. But I'll take it from Dan that it's the 
input space (until proven otherwise...).

Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., John Vitollo <jvlist@h...> wrote:

But anyway ColorSync does not

> really take over on its own. It just helps apps and components communicate
> with each other. Check out Bruce Fraser's article:
> 
> http://www.creativepro.com:80/story/feature/2440.html
> 
> Best, John V.

>But I'll take it from Dan that it's the 
> input space (until proven otherwise...).
> 
> Antonis

I'll second the input space!

Best, John V.

> Thanks John. Ironically Bruce - in an otherwise very clear 
description - doesn't 
> get into the details of whether ColorSync uses the RGB input 
space or the 
> display profile as the "from" in this equation. But I'll take it from 
Dan that it's the 
> input space (until proven otherwise...).
> 
> Antonis

Antonis,

I belong to the ColorSync Users list - Apple runs it. It has tons of 
info -

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	colorsync-users-request@...

Best, John V.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "John Vitollo" <jvlist@h...> 
wrote:
>  >But I'll take it from Dan that it's the 
> > input space (until proven otherwise...).
> > 
> > Antonis
> 
> I'll second the input space!
> 
> Best, John V.

Whether Printer Color Management is checked or not also has to do with 
this. Most think that if it's checked, the monitor profile is used for 
the source.
At any rate, whatever it does, it screws things up. Those of you using 
the same curves on the same printer/ink/paper combos but getting 
different results should check to make sure PCM is the same for all-
on or off.
Should be off, but if curves were developed with it on, you're stuck 
with it.
Tyler

Good point, Tyler. And that's why I stay clear of having the Epson driver do 
_anything_ at all with a file - but I realize that some workflows require 
adjustments at that level.

Antonis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
 Whether Printer Color Management is checked or not also has to do with 
> this. Most think that if it's checked, the monitor profile is used for 
> the source.
...
> Tyler

Antonis, here's the confusing part, and you must excuse me 'cause I'm a Mac guy...
Working with Steve Meyers on his PC system, we discovered it made a huge difference even with the driver set to do 
nothing beyond media and resolution selections. "No color adjustment" was selected each time, and PCM consistantly 
muxed up the color a bit. Sending a grad to the printer for just one pure ink to print isn't that hard, but with PCM checked, it 
still mixed in dots of other ink, PCM unchecked and it was clean.
Had quite an effect on tonal gradations as well. Curves developed with it set one way will give you problems with it set 
another, at least that's what we've run into.
That mysterious check box has been a problem from the beginning...
Tyler

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Antonis Ricos" <antonisphoto@y...> wrote:

> Good point, Tyler. And that's why I stay clear of having the Epson driver do 
> _anything_ at all with a file - but I realize that some workflows require 
> adjustments at that level.
> 
> Antonis
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
>  Whether Printer Color Management is checked or not also has to do with 
> > this. Most think that if it's checked, the monitor profile is used for 
> > the source.
> ...
> > Tyler