Digital BW, The Print

mh:

I am not quite clear what resolution you are scanning at but it sounds like
you are varying it depending upon what size you expect the final output to
be. As was noted on a recent thread I is best to scan at the scanners
optical resolution (which is 2400 dpi at the 1:1 size of the negative) and
then resample down later as needed for printing.

The other thing to keep in mind is that in 8-bit grayscale you only have 256
shades of gray and if you make large changes in brightness, contrast, levels
or strong curves you will start to lose shades of gray. You can observe this
by checking the image histogram before and after making a large adjustment.
If too many shades of gray are lost the image will begin to look posterized.

In addition the RGB separation curves used in the MIS-VM workflow are
sometime very strong. They can by themselves push a marginal image file into
posterization. One of the things to try if you are getting posterization is
a different RGB curve to see if that improves things.

What I recommend is that you scan you negatives to a 16-bit file from the
scanner if possible. I suspect you are working in Silverfast SE and do not
have this capability. I would recommend the full version of Silverfast for
your scanner to get the 16-bit output option. You can download a demo
version to give it a try.

Once you have a 16-bit file in PS do all of your large adjustments before
you drop to 8-bit. For some images you may have to stay in 16-bit all the
way through applying the RGB separation curves and printing. Some people
work this way on all their images.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "oncdoc301" <oncdoc@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 8:01 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: posterization


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "husseyhussey" <mh@t...>
> wrote:
>
> mh:
>
> Thanks for your reply. I am scanning in 48>24 bit color mode then
> converting to grayscale for editing. I have been using the
> brightness/contrast sliders in a new adjustment layer to boost those
> areas which posterize ( I hope that is the correct term..it appears
> as merging of what as a photographer I would call zone III-IV tones
> into a single flat poorly detailed puddle.
>
(snip earlier)

You might also want to try Vuescan -- http://www.hamrick.com/

Also, I agree -- from experience -- about remaining in 16-bit mode 
for as long as possible. I've found that for most of the images I 
print I can remain in 16-bit mode the whole way. With those that have 
required 8-bit mode work, I try to keep it to a minimum. 

BTW, I've noticed that some of the sharpening actions that can only 
be done in 8-bit mode have a tendency to leave artifacts on images 
(seen in print comparisons). To remain in 16-bit mode I now forego 
the sharpening actions and only apply a very mild USM pass, if I 
sharpen at all. I find that this preserves the tonal integrity of the 
image.

Chris

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
I would recommend the full version of Silverfast for
> your scanner to get the 16-bit output option. You can download a 
demo
> version to give it a try.
> 
> Once you have a 16-bit file in PS do all of your large adjustments 
before
> you drop to 8-bit. For some images you may have to stay in 16-bit 
all the
> way through applying the RGB separation curves and printing. Some 
people
> work this way on all their images.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "oncdoc301" <oncdoc@c...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 8:01 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: posterization
> 
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "husseyhussey" <mh@t...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > mh:
> >
> > Thanks for your reply. I am scanning in 48>24 bit color mode then
> > converting to grayscale for editing. I have been using the
> > brightness/contrast sliders in a new adjustment layer to boost 
those
> > areas which posterize ( I hope that is the correct term..it 
appears
> > as merging of what as a photographer I would call zone III-IV 
tones

> > into a single flat poorly detailed puddle.
> >
> (snip earlier)

Chris,

I checked the site and I did not see the 2450 listed in the supported
printers. Have you given it a try?

In both 8 and 16-bit I recommend one of the edge sharpening procedures or a
plugin such as Ultra-Sharpen.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "tzinzunzan2000" <ldmr@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 5:38 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: posterization


> You might also want to try Vuescan -- http://www.hamrick.com/
>
> Also, I agree -- from experience -- about remaining in 16-bit mode
> for as long as possible. I've found that for most of the images I
> print I can remain in 16-bit mode the whole way. With those that have
> required 8-bit mode work, I try to keep it to a minimum.
>
> BTW, I've noticed that some of the sharpening actions that can only
> be done in 8-bit mode have a tendency to leave artifacts on images
> (seen in print comparisons). To remain in 16-bit mode I now forego
> the sharpening actions and only apply a very mild USM pass, if I
> sharpen at all. I find that this preserves the tonal integrity of the
> image.
>
> Chris
>
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> I would recommend the full version of Silverfast for
> > your scanner to get the 16-bit output option. You can download a
> demo
> > version to give it a try.
> >
> > Once you have a 16-bit file in PS do all of your large adjustments
> before
> > you drop to 8-bit. For some images you may have to stay in 16-bit
> all the
> > way through applying the RGB separation curves and printing. Some
> people
> > work this way on all their images.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "oncdoc301" <oncdoc@c...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 8:01 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: posterization
> >
> >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "husseyhussey" <mh@t...>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > mh:
> > >
> > > Thanks for your reply. I am scanning in 48>24 bit color mode then
> > > converting to grayscale for editing. I have been using the
> > > brightness/contrast sliders in a new adjustment layer to boost
> those
> > > areas which posterize ( I hope that is the correct term..it
> appears
> > > as merging of what as a photographer I would call zone III-IV
> tones
> > > into a single flat poorly detailed puddle.
> > >
> > (snip earlier)
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I haven't tried Vuescan with the 2450, but according to what I've 
heard it is supported. See also

http://www.mail-archive.com/filmscanners@.../msg16028.html

Chris

---- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Chris,
> 
> I checked the site and I did not see the 2450 listed in the 
supported
> printers. Have you given it a try?
> 
> In both 8 and 16-bit I recommend one of the edge sharpening 
procedures or a
> plugin such as Ultra-Sharpen.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tzinzunzan2000" <ldmr@c...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 5:38 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: posterization
> 
> 
> > You might also want to try Vuescan -- http://www.hamrick.com/
> >
> > Also, I agree -- from experience -- about remaining in 16-bit mode
> > for as long as possible. I've found that for most of the images I
> > print I can remain in 16-bit mode the whole way. With those that 
have
> > required 8-bit mode work, I try to keep it to a minimum.
> >
> > BTW, I've noticed that some of the sharpening actions that can 
only
> > be done in 8-bit mode have a tendency to leave artifacts on images
> > (seen in print comparisons). To remain in 16-bit mode I now forego
> > the sharpening actions and only apply a very mild USM pass, if I
> > sharpen at all. I find that this preserves the tonal integrity of 
the
> > image.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > I would recommend the full version of Silverfast for
> > > your scanner to get the 16-bit output option. You can download a
> > demo
> > > version to give it a try.
> > >
> > > Once you have a 16-bit file in PS do all of your large 
adjustments
> > before
> > > you drop to 8-bit. For some images you may have to stay in 16-
bit
> > all the
> > > way through applying the RGB separation curves and printing. 
Some
> > people
> > > work this way on all their images.
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "oncdoc301" <oncdoc@c...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 8:01 PM
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: posterization
> > >
> > >
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "husseyhussey" 
<mh@t...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > mh:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your reply. I am scanning in 48>24 bit color mode 
then
> > > > converting to grayscale for editing. I have been using the
> > > > brightness/contrast sliders in a new adjustment layer to boost
> > those
> > > > areas which posterize ( I hope that is the correct term..it
> > appears
> > > > as merging of what as a photographer I would call zone III-IV
> > tones
> > > > into a single flat poorly detailed puddle.
> > > >
> > > (snip earlier)
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

Chris,

> I haven't tried Vuescan with the 2450, but according to what I've 
> heard it is supported. See also
> 

Vuescan does support the 2450 quite well.

Don Bryant

Regarding Posterization:

In comparing Piezo software & Cone inks; Piezo software & MIS 
FS inks; MIS original & VM inks with Epson profiles:

1.  Do all 3 of these produce equivalent posterization, or does 
posterization only show up with Piezo software?

2.  It seems clear from the reported experiences of many users 
that posterization does appear with some frequency when using 
Piezo software & cone inks. However, does it only show up with 
quadtone systems (1160 & 3000), or does it also happen 
equally with hextone systems (1200, 7000, etc.)?

3.  If it should be the case that posterization only shows up with 
Piezo software and equally with both Cone inks & MIS FS inks, 
but not does not appear with MIS original & VM inks printed using 
Epson software: could it be that posterization is the (perhaps 
inevitable) result of Piezo software forcing an extreme profile 
onto the printing output histogram from what are otherwise 
excellent files (that happen to contain lots of information in the 
3/4 tones)?

I look forward to hearing the experiences of others. To date I 
have only used Piezo software with Cone inks on an 1160, and I 
have experienced the posterization effect in 3/4 tones that  others 
also describe.

Cheers, James