Digital BW, The Print

Hey gang,

I'm interested in the opinions of the group about my 2000P. Should I 
keep it or dump it? I originally got it because of the archival 
inking system but now there are archival inks for the 1280 using CIS 
and there are even issues whether the archival inks really make a 
difference in salable prints. If you were in my shoes would you dump 
the 2000P and pick up a couple of 1280's (one for b/w, one for 
color)? Or would you keep the 2000P and just add a 1280?

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Tim Timmermans

Well, you could wait for the release of the 2200 for $700 US, due out 
in just a couple of weeks.

I don't know whether to believe the hype or not, but it's a seven ink 
pigment printer, the 7th ink being a choice of different inks. If you 
choose the "chrome" option or whatever Epson is calling it, you get a 
7th grey ink, either for glossy or matte, which they say enables you 
to do b&w images (with toning capibility)over 100 years stability, OR 
color at 80 years stability. Well- so they say.

The pro versions are already out the 7600 and the 9600.

I'm going to try to get a sample print.

How much ink does each chamber of the 2000P hold? The 7600 holds 
110ml, and all the new line including the 2200 let you replace each 
color seperately.

An interesting solution that's been buzzing around lately, finally a 
full solution for b&w from Epson. Apparently the 7th grey ink reduces 
metamerism(?). I'm waiting to see how others will compare it to MIS VM 
and Cone's new inkset.
Jim H.






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "timtimmermans7" 
<zenphoto7@a...> wrote:

> Hey gang,
> 
> I'm interested in the opinions of the group about my 2000P. Should I 
> keep it or dump it? I originally got it because of the archival 
> inking system but now there are archival inks for the 1280 using CIS 
> and there are even issues whether the archival inks really make a 
> difference in salable prints. If you were in my shoes would you dump 
> the 2000P and pick up a couple of 1280's (one for b/w, one for 
> color)? Or would you keep the 2000P and just add a 1280?
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts on this.
> 
> Tim Timmermans

That would be good advice to wait for the release of the 2200.  I saw the print 
samples on various papers (epson) from the 2200 and  the 7600.  Compared to 
print samples from the 1280/9000 with the 2200/7600, the results of the new 
printers are stunning  in the tonal gradations and values (The samples were in BW 
& Color). Beautiful.  What I found interesting regards these new seven ink printers 
is the stregnth of printing in 720 dpi (thereabouts) is very close in quality to 1440 
dpi printing.  I have yet to do any work with these new printers so I will have to 
reserve my judgement, however what I saw especially in BW is very promising 
and exciting.

Jonathan


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jimhayes361" <jimhayes@j...> wrote:

> Well, you could wait for the release of the 2200 for $700 US, due out 
> in just a couple of weeks.
> 
> I don't know whether to believe the hype or not, but it's a seven ink 
> pigment printer, the 7th ink being a choice of different inks. If you 
> choose the "chrome" option or whatever Epson is calling it, you get a 
> 7th grey ink, either for glossy or matte, which they say enables you 
> to do b&w images (with toning capibility)over 100 years stability, OR 
> color at 80 years stability. Well- so they say.
> 
> The pro versions are already out the 7600 and the 9600.
> 
> I'm going to try to get a sample print.
> 
> How much ink does each chamber of the 2000P hold? The 7600 holds 
> 110ml, and all the new line including the 2200 let you replace each 
> color seperately.
> 
> An interesting solution that's been buzzing around lately, finally a 
> full solution for b&w from Epson. Apparently the 7th grey ink reduces 
> metamerism(?). I'm waiting to see how others will compare it to MIS VM 
> and Cone's new inkset.
> Jim H.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "timtimmermans7" 
> <zenphoto7@a...> wrote:
> > Hey gang,
> > 
> > I'm interested in the opinions of the group about my 2000P. Should I 
> > keep it or dump it? I originally got it because of the archival 
> > inking system but now there are archival inks for the 1280 using CIS 
> > and there are even issues whether the archival inks really make a 
> > difference in salable prints. If you were in my shoes would you dump 
> > the 2000P and pick up a couple of 1280's (one for b/w, one for 
> > color)? Or would you keep the 2000P and just add a 1280?
> > 
> > Thanks for your thoughts on this.
> > 
> > Tim Timmermans

I went to download the Epson driver for the 2000P and noticed that Epson has
2 versions for XP.  The newer one - version 5.21 - is apparently the release
designed to reduce metamerism.  Without thinking, I downloaded it.

 

Upon reflection, however, it probably runs the black ink further up into the
shadows at the expense of the smoother "color" inks.  As such, it may be a
bad choice for best quality.  Epson appears to agree from what I can tell
reading http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/pho2kp/pho2kpmi.pdf .

 

I tried to download and install the older driver - version 5.2as - but I'm
not sure it installed.  The properties box of both 2000P drivers (one
labeled "copy 2") indicates they are v. 5.21, the newer one.

 

Is it possible to have both drivers installed?  (It would appear not.)  To
uninstall a driver in XP, what is the best procedure?

 

Any opinions on which driver I ought to use?  I would guess they'll require
different curves.  I would also guess that the original, older driver is
better for B&W printing.

 

Thanks.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
>
> I went to download the Epson driver for the 2000P and noticed
> that Epson has
> 2 versions for XP.  The newer one - version 5.21 - is apparently
> the release
> designed to reduce metamerism.  Without thinking, I downloaded it.
>
> Upon reflection, however, it probably runs the black ink further
> up into the
> shadows at the expense of the smoother "color" inks.  As such, it may be a
> bad choice for best quality.  Epson appears to agree from what I can tell
> reading http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/pho2kp/pho2kpmi.pdf .

That's exactly what it does. Personally, I think it's worth it. A slight
increase in grain is less objectionable than an overall green cast to B&W
prints.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

I'm going to stick MIS UT-FSN and maybe UT2 into the machine.  So,
metamerism is not an issue.  I think restricting the black ink to the very
deep shadows is going to make a better print.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
___________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul D. DeRocco [mailto:pderocco@...] 
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:44 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] 2000P

> From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
>
> I went to download the Epson driver for the 2000P and noticed
> that Epson has
> 2 versions for XP.  The newer one - version 5.21 - is apparently
> the release
> designed to reduce metamerism.  Without thinking, I downloaded it.
>
> Upon reflection, however, it probably runs the black ink further
> up into the
> shadows at the expense of the smoother "color" inks.  As such, it may be a
> bad choice for best quality.  Epson appears to agree from what I can tell
> reading http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/pho2kp/pho2kpmi.pdf .

That's exactly what it does. Personally, I think it's worth it. A slight
increase in grain is less objectionable than an overall green cast to B&W
prints.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...m.com




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Paul

If your on a pc you can remove the drivers in "Add/Remove Hardware",
located in the control panel. I did this last night and was able to
install the older driver. The difference between the two is pretty
dramatic in terms of color- 5.21 prints really blue (to reduce
metamerism in the yellow ink?), while the older driver produces a much
more neutral print (when not taking metamerism into acount). The
shadow tones are also show much less grain, and are lighter in the 1/4
area, than with the new driver.  I haven't printed a continuous tone
ramp yet, but i have a feeling it will be much more linear than with
5.21 driver.

Thank you for reminding me about the older driver btw, I've been
pulling my hair out trying to fight that blue cast with curves for a
month or so now, with very little success.

john


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I'm going to stick MIS UT-FSN and maybe UT2 into the machine.  So,
> metamerism is not an issue.  I think restricting the black ink to
the very
> deep shadows is going to make a better print.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> ___________________________
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul D. DeRocco [mailto:pderocco@i...] 
> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:44 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] 2000P
> 
> > From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@v...]
> >
> > I went to download the Epson driver for the 2000P and noticed
> > that Epson has
> > 2 versions for XP.  The newer one - version 5.21 - is apparently
> > the release
> > designed to reduce metamerism.  Without thinking, I downloaded it.
> >
> > Upon reflection, however, it probably runs the black ink further
> > up into the
> > shadows at the expense of the smoother "color" inks.  As such, it
may be a
> > bad choice for best quality.  Epson appears to agree from what I
can tell
> > reading http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/pho2kp/pho2kpmi.pdf .
> 
> That's exactly what it does. Personally, I think it's worth it. A slight
> increase in grain is less objectionable than an overall green cast
to B&W

> prints.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...
> 
> 
> 
>

John,

This is a response by a very knowledgeable printer that I got off list
concerning the old and new 2000P drivers:
 
"The "metamerism" difference between the current drivers for the 2000P and
the original is the gray balance color temperature target, which was moved
from 3200K to about 4500K, simply to avoid the pronounced cyan appearance of
prints viewed by window light."

You wrote:

>The difference between the two is pretty
>dramatic in terms of color- 5.21 prints really blue (to reduce
>metamerism in the yellow ink?), while the older driver produces a much
>more neutral print (when not taking metamerism into acount). The
>shadow tones are also show much less grain, and are lighter in the 1/4
>area, than with the new driver.  I haven't printed a continuous tone
>ramp yet, but i have a feeling it will be much more linear than with
>5.21 driver.

One additional issue is that I want whatever I do to be cross-platform.  I'm
not sure if the Mac OS 10 driver is the new or old one. 

Usually when we check "No Color Adjustment" the curves are cross-platform.
If you print with that checked in the old and new drivers, do the prints
look alike?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
_______________________________


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I'm going to stick MIS UT-FSN and maybe UT2 into the machine.  So,
> metamerism is not an issue.  I think restricting the black ink to
the very
> deep shadows is going to make a better print.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> ___________________________
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul D. DeRocco [mailto:pderocco@i...] 
> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:44 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] 2000P
> 
> > From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@v...]
> >
> > I went to download the Epson driver for the 2000P and noticed
> > that Epson has
> > 2 versions for XP.  The newer one - version 5.21 - is apparently
> > the release
> > designed to reduce metamerism.  Without thinking, I downloaded it.
> >
> > Upon reflection, however, it probably runs the black ink further
> > up into the
> > shadows at the expense of the smoother "color" inks.  As such, it
may be a
> > bad choice for best quality.  Epson appears to agree from what I
can tell
> > reading http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/pho2kp/pho2kpmi.pdf .
> 
> That's exactly what it does. Personally, I think it's worth it. A slight
> increase in grain is less objectionable than an overall green cast
to B&W
> prints.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...
> 
> 
> 
> 





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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them short.
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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Hi Paul

I made three test prints that included a 100 step and offset gradient.
One was done with "no color adjustment" checked, one with ICM, and the
last with "Color control" checked with no adjustments applied. 

The results with the 5.20as driver are:
-ICM: Pretty neutral. This setting is what i normally use,and is what
I used for my last reply. Interestingly, if i remember correctly, it
looked the same as "no adjustment" when I compared the two printed
with the 5.21 driver.

-Color controls: Looks identical to the print made with ICM checked.

-No Adjustment: Unfortunately, this one looks pretty much the same as
the prints i was getting with the new driver, in terms of color. i'll
wait a day or so for the ink to dry before i compare density. 

Please let me know if you want me post any other settings i use, and
remember, before you go trustin my judgment, I'm sorta new to all this
so there could be any number of varables i'm missing;)

thanks
john

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> John,
> 
> This is a response by a very knowledgeable printer that I got off list
> concerning the old and new 2000P drivers:
>  
> "The "metamerism" difference between the current drivers for the
2000P and
> the original is the gray balance color temperature target, which was
moved
> from 3200K to about 4500K, simply to avoid the pronounced cyan
appearance of
> prints viewed by window light."
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >The difference between the two is pretty
> >dramatic in terms of color- 5.21 prints really blue (to reduce
> >metamerism in the yellow ink?), while the older driver produces a much
> >more neutral print (when not taking metamerism into acount). The
> >shadow tones are also show much less grain, and are lighter in the 1/4
> >area, than with the new driver.  I haven't printed a continuous tone
> >ramp yet, but i have a feeling it will be much more linear than with
> >5.21 driver.
> 
> One additional issue is that I want whatever I do to be
cross-platform.  I'm
> not sure if the Mac OS 10 driver is the new or old one. 
> 
> Usually when we check "No Color Adjustment" the curves are
cross-platform.

> If you print with that checked in the old and new drivers, do the prints
> look alike?
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> _______________________________

I set up a 2000P with MIS UT-FS inks today, and it worked fine with a simple
grayscale curve or Transfer Function.

 

The ink order was: K = Eboni, C = FS-C, M = FS-C, LC = FS-M, LM = FS-M, Y =
FS-Y.

 

The driver was the latest XP driver, which is believed to be the most
similar to the OS-X driver (which the owner of the 2000P has, and he reports
the inks and curve work well with).

 

The settings were: Paper type = Epson Archival Matte, "Print Quality"
(resolution) = "Fine" (said to be 1440, whereas "Photo" is 2880), High Speed
checked, Color Management = No Color Adjustment.

 

The print speed appeared to be comparable to the 1280.  

 

The print quality was very good.  With RGB curves I could improve this, but
there was not enough time today (and I no longer have the 2000P here).  Most
will probably prefer a simple grayscale file, Transfer Function workflow -
very easy.

 

At any rate, the 2000P is clearly a capable printer that can easily make
fine B&W prints.  Making the grayscale curve for EEM only tool about 3
iterations.  I suspect modifying it for other papers will be easy for most
to do.  I'll, of course, give my curve to whoever wants it.  

 

So, for a cheap 13 inch printer, an old 2000P may be a winner.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul Roark wrote:


> This is a response by a very knowledgeable printer that I got off list
> concerning the old and new 2000P drivers:
>  
> "The "metamerism" difference between the current drivers for the 2000P and
> the original is the gray balance color temperature target, which was moved
> from 3200K to about 4500K, simply to avoid the pronounced cyan appearance of
> prints viewed by window light."


Paul,

3200K as a target for gray balance ?   I'm surprised. Where do we 
ever find (or need) a display color temperature like that ?

The original drivers for the 10000 CF, 2000P and possibly the 
5500 were changed because the metamerism was a problem and the 
droplet size allowed a longer black generation to suppress it. 
The 9500 + 7500 never got that new driver as the droplet size 
wouldn't allow it. The 10000CF that I have here shows that long 
black generation and it isn't nice. The printers mentioned were 
all to be used for the graphic market too so I guess 5500K as the 
color temperature is much more likely.

Ernst

Thank you so much for your hard work, Paul! Can I please have a copy
of your curve?

I knew she still had some life in her.  And as for its slow print
speed, I use that time to clean up around the house, so it could be
seen as an advantage, especially to my roommates!

Thanks again. dont know what we'd do without you!
John


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I set up a 2000P with MIS UT-FS inks today, and it worked fine with
a simple
> grayscale curve or Transfer Function.
> 
>  
> 
> The ink order was: K = Eboni, C = FS-C, M = FS-C, LC = FS-M, LM =
FS-M, Y =
> FS-Y.
> 
>  
> 
> The driver was the latest XP driver, which is believed to be the most
> similar to the OS-X driver (which the owner of the 2000P has, and he
reports
> the inks and curve work well with).
> 
>  
> 
> The settings were: Paper type = Epson Archival Matte, "Print Quality"
> (resolution) = "Fine" (said to be 1440, whereas "Photo" is 2880),
High Speed
> checked, Color Management = No Color Adjustment.
> 
>  
> 
> The print speed appeared to be comparable to the 1280.  
> 
>  
> 
> The print quality was very good.  With RGB curves I could improve
this, but
> there was not enough time today (and I no longer have the 2000P
here).  Most
> will probably prefer a simple grayscale file, Transfer Function
workflow -
> very easy.
> 
>  
> 
> At any rate, the 2000P is clearly a capable printer that can easily make
> fine B&W prints.  Making the grayscale curve for EEM only tool about 3
> iterations.  I suspect modifying it for other papers will be easy
for most

> to do.  I'll, of course, give my curve to whoever wants it.  
> 
>  
> 
> So, for a cheap 13 inch printer, an old 2000P may be a winner.
> 
>  
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Paul...thanks for the work on setting up the 2000P for black and white...big question for you...what steps do i take with mine...where do  go to get the ink...and do i have to pull the chips off the OEM ink carts???...if you think this would be better off list, just let me know...thanks again...Ciao...Phil
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- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Phil, 

Although, the results on the 2000P that I was able to test for a few hours
were very good, I have not fully completed my 2000P work.  So there is some
uncertainty as to where it will end up. 

That said, I expect the 2000P to be very similar to the 1280 that I have set
up for the FS inksets.  To see the information sheet on the 1280 with FS
installed, see http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/1280-FS-Readme.htm. 

This information sheet can also be accessed through a general ink
information index that is the first link on my general web page, below.


Basically, the 2000P uses 1280 carts that have a 2000P chips put on them.
MIS has all the parts, but does not yet have 1280 carts pre-filled with FS
ink in the order I'm supporting.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com  
_____________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: phil saccio [mailto:hawk20432@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:18 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 2000P

Hello Paul...thanks for the work on setting up the 2000P for black and
white...big question for you...what steps do i take with mine...where do  go
to get the ink...and do i have to pull the chips off the OEM ink
carts???...if you think this would be better off list, just let me
know...thanks again...Ciao...Phil
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Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
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